this doesn't affect TvZ/TvP at all and makes TvT less retarded/insanely punishing
#MakeTvTChessAgain
thank you for reading
Forum Index > SC2 General |
woopr
United States110 Posts
this doesn't affect TvZ/TvP at all and makes TvT less retarded/insanely punishing #MakeTvTChessAgain thank you for reading | ||
MockHamill
Sweden1793 Posts
On February 16 2017 07:57 woopr wrote: make it to 1 siege tank takes up a whole medivac this doesn't affect TvZ/TvP at all and makes TvT less retarded/insanely punishing #MakeTvTChessAgain thank you for reading This is actually a really good idea. It would not prevent doom drops but at least make them less strong. Toning down anything that decides the entire outcome of the game in a few seconds is a move in the right direction. | ||
Ganseng
Russian Federation473 Posts
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effecto
France142 Posts
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
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Phaenoman
568 Posts
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
Tank drops might not be used often in non-mirrors, but it's still a possible threat hanging over the heads of the opponents. It could also open up new styles if you don't nerf it to the ground. | ||
Topin
Peru9937 Posts
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Cosmos
Belgium1077 Posts
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Phaenoman
568 Posts
On February 16 2017 21:57 plogamer wrote: No, stop asking for self-nerfs in the interest of game-play. Only Terrans are dumbass enough to do that (see hellbat nerf in hots). You think ling/bane is more forgiving? Or phoenix wars in PvP? Tank drops might not be used often in non-mirrors, but it's still a possible threat hanging over the heads of the opponents. It could also open up new styles if you don't nerf it to the ground. 1. If a majority is interested in the same "self-nerf" then I see no problem in implementing it. 2. We are talking about TvT. If you wanna improve ZvZ or PvP pls make a proposal instead of insulting ppl that try to put some reasonable effort into it. 3. I cannot remember any drops including tanks before and after the tankivac mechanic in a non-mirror. It's not even a threat. Pls enlighten us. | ||
JackONeill
861 Posts
On the one hand it's really good for TvT doom drops, which are very, very frustrating, and omnipresent at pro level. Watching innovation stream, nearly every single TvT he wins is with a Ddrop. On the other hand : - i really hate "incoherent" nerfs (room in a dropship is determined by supply usually, and the hellbat nerf was already the incoherent one) - it's kind of a nerf to marine tanks in TvZ, which was already indirectly nerfed by the liberator AA nerf (meaning mutas are much stronger in TvZ, and marine tanks already sucked against LBM in HOTS) - weaker tank saving potential overall, which is kinda sad | ||
imre
France9263 Posts
On February 16 2017 22:30 JackONeill wrote: I'm on the fence about that. On the one hand it's really good for TvT doom drops, which are very, very frustrating, and omnipresent at pro level. Watching innovation stream, nearly every single TvT he wins is with a Ddrop. On the other hand : - i really hate "incoherent" nerfs (room in a dropship is determined by supply usually, and the hellbat nerf was already the incoherent one) - it's kind of a nerf to marine tanks in TvZ, which was already indirectly nerfed by the liberator AA nerf (meaning mutas are much stronger in TvZ, and marine tanks already sucked against LBM in HOTS) - weaker tank saving potential overall, which is kinda sad To be fair the cons are really smalls even if they exist. And right now top lvl ladder TvT is always decided by a doom drop if the game goes past 5 minutes. | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15614 Posts
On February 16 2017 22:21 Phaenoman wrote: Show nested quote + On February 16 2017 21:57 plogamer wrote: No, stop asking for self-nerfs in the interest of game-play. Only Terrans are dumbass enough to do that (see hellbat nerf in hots). You think ling/bane is more forgiving? Or phoenix wars in PvP? Tank drops might not be used often in non-mirrors, but it's still a possible threat hanging over the heads of the opponents. It could also open up new styles if you don't nerf it to the ground. 3. I cannot remember any drops including tanks before and after the tankivac mechanic in a non-mirror. It's not even a threat. Pls enlighten us. I saw soO losing on stream to a mech doomdrop with 2 tanks, a thor and 4 hellbats. I copied this strat and had some success with it on ladder. | ||
Ryu3600
Canada468 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11132 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15614 Posts
On February 17 2017 00:02 Ryu3600 wrote: I like the suggestion and it does seem really good except you have to ask yourself w/o doom drops how do you push into another Terran? sure you can make Vikings and liberators but in my experience, TvT is one of the most boring matchups to play. This is because pushing into someone else can take so long or be so frustrating and vs Doomdrops yes they are stupid and yes they are annoying except they allow for TvT to be faster they push games into a position where you can either win or lose and by removing them / nerfing them you would actually be promoting an incredibly boring match-up. Even if its meant to be like chess I don't want every single TvT of mine to take 25 minutes or longer. I like TvZ and TvP because they escalate and play at such a fun and finely tuned pace. However, I can understand why some people would support this. Doomdrops can be a very fast way to lose a game you're ahead in. However, the way I like to see it is if you're not the one out on the map then you should be the one defending and preparing for said doomdrops. Having sensor towers and missile turrets can often repel most drops and ultimately weaken a Doomdrop. I guess what my general point is: If you want to weaken doomdrops I think a better way to do it would be to improve or buff the Terran static defense such as the missile turret or the sensor tower (Range of sensor tower, +1 range upgrade is cheaper or faster research) Yeah this is why I don't like the change | ||
fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3954 Posts
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On February 16 2017 22:21 Phaenoman wrote: Show nested quote + On February 16 2017 21:57 plogamer wrote: No, stop asking for self-nerfs in the interest of game-play. Only Terrans are dumbass enough to do that (see hellbat nerf in hots). You think ling/bane is more forgiving? Or phoenix wars in PvP? Tank drops might not be used often in non-mirrors, but it's still a possible threat hanging over the heads of the opponents. It could also open up new styles if you don't nerf it to the ground. 1. If a majority is interested in the same "self-nerf" then I see no problem in implementing it. 2. We are talking about TvT. If you wanna improve ZvZ or PvP pls make a proposal instead of insulting ppl that try to put some reasonable effort into it. 3. I cannot remember any drops including tanks before and after the tankivac mechanic in a non-mirror. It's not even a threat. Pls enlighten us. You may not be aware but bio tanks is played in TvP and if often includes tanks loading into medivacs. Also, I don't see why you talk as you didn't know that there is balance inside a mirror match up. Saying mirrors are always balanced is a bad analysis, because even in mirror you need to have several options possible for each player. For instance, drops are key in Bio vs Mech, and it doesn't appear that bio is super strong against mech atm, why nerf it even more? for the sake of having turtle to mass ravens in every TvT? On the other hand, I must admit I've missed some pro TvT lately : do you have a consistent list of pro games where one players "stole" the win from a clearly superior player with a doom drop? It would be the first step toward a real improvement for the game : trying to identify and analyse a problem, before throwing random solutions in the air. Cause to be honest, to me this idea sounds very much like : the "hey your finger is itching? let's cut your arm" kind of solution... Last, if you check balance discussion from last year, there were a lot of people on this site saying that tankivacs were promoting doom drops, against all evidence. Aren't we back in a discussion were people blame the design instead of realising that things such as map awarness, reaction time and anticipation are their real issues? | ||
Ryu3600
Canada468 Posts
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Phaenoman
568 Posts
On February 17 2017 00:25 Gwavajuice wrote: Show nested quote + On February 16 2017 22:21 Phaenoman wrote: On February 16 2017 21:57 plogamer wrote: No, stop asking for self-nerfs in the interest of game-play. Only Terrans are dumbass enough to do that (see hellbat nerf in hots). You think ling/bane is more forgiving? Or phoenix wars in PvP? Tank drops might not be used often in non-mirrors, but it's still a possible threat hanging over the heads of the opponents. It could also open up new styles if you don't nerf it to the ground. 1. If a majority is interested in the same "self-nerf" then I see no problem in implementing it. 2. We are talking about TvT. If you wanna improve ZvZ or PvP pls make a proposal instead of insulting ppl that try to put some reasonable effort into it. 3. I cannot remember any drops including tanks before and after the tankivac mechanic in a non-mirror. It's not even a threat. Pls enlighten us. You may not be aware but bio tanks is played in TvP and if often includes tanks loading into medivacs. Also, I don't see why you talk as you didn't know that there is balance inside a mirror match up. Saying mirrors are always balanced is a bad analysis, because even in mirror you need to have several options possible for each player. For instance, drops are key in Bio vs Mech, and it doesn't appear that bio is super strong against mech atm, why nerf it even more? for the sake of having turtle to mass ravens in every TvT? On the other hand, I must admit I've missed some pro TvT lately : do you have a consistent list of pro games where one players "stole" the win from a clearly superior player with a doom drop? It would be the first step toward a real improvement for the game : trying to identify and analyse a problem, before throwing random solutions in the air. Cause to be honest, to me this idea sounds very much like : the "hey your finger is itching? let's cut your arm" kind of solution... Last, if you check balance discussion from last year, there were a lot of people on this site saying that tankivacs were promoting doom drops, against all evidence. Aren't we back in a discussion were people blame the design instead of realising that things such as map awarness, reaction time and anticipation are their real issues? Tanks are indeed part of the TvP meta, but they are not part of doom drops. You rather use bio with sieging liberators and mines for that or pure bio. Tanks inside a medivac are either for fast transport or retreat. Regarding your TvT "balance": I think you are trying to explain something, but you talk about balance in a mirror. Even if you try to make it sound like very deep thinking and analyzing by saying mirrors do have balance. They do not. Each player has the exact same tools and thus the same chances of winning. But the aspect of time and knowledge can cause "build order losses". If you follow a path without knowledge of what your opponent is doing you risk being countered. A very good example is 3 rax reaper. In order to avoid such losses people start either using these popular builds themselves or their counters, depending on what is stronger or what they prefer. That's why we have all these reaper cyclone builds nowadays. Now this what you actually wanted to talk about: design. If mech is stronger than bio in TvT, simply play mech? You don't want be forced into mech? This is not a balance issue. It's a design issue. I could explain more and more, but I really don't wanna discuss this with you any further. My personal opinion: Doomdrops are not fun at all. I'd rather have them removed or weakened. | ||
raff100
498 Posts
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VHbb
688 Posts
On February 17 2017 00:27 Ryu3600 wrote: Honestly if this change is a go through change then I think the immortal should also take up 6-8 spaces in a warp-prism I think that would be a fair trade off especially vs that one stupid double proxy robo immortal all-in. Wait wasn't this a change to address TvT? you silly terrans are unbelievable | ||
verlar
34 Posts
Tankivacs made doomdrops much weaker while many poeple thougt that every terran will just drop tanks in opponent base. In my opinion change from this topic would not change much. Terran while doomdropping has enough medivacs to take everything. Top players (like top 8) know where is opponent army, when something is missing they immediately defend their main base. I requires a lot of experience, good positioning, good scouting, several marines spreaded out on map. Overall, sorry but TvT is very dynamic matchup. The dps is insane, even without tanks marines kill buildings very fast. 1 tank less wont change anything. Maybe better make upgrade for sensor tower that it will see whole map xD | ||
c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
nothing worse than playing 15 min longer than you should have to bc ur inferior terran opponent has constructed siegetanks and vikings | ||
Dav1oN
Ukraine3159 Posts
On February 16 2017 22:04 Topin wrote: remove medivac boost, thx. nah, this is important option for terran and am talking that as a protoss would be better to make booster mana depended | ||
woopr
United States110 Posts
On February 17 2017 00:05 eviltomahawk wrote: Someone on Reddit made a suggestion that tanks could take up 6 spots in the medivac instead of the current 4 or the suggested full 8. That would allow a marauder or a couple marines to support the tank. 6 is a stupid compromise and i have seen no actual reasoning other than some insane desire to always stand in the middle of two choices the change is very specific to TvT doom drops so you don't need to compromise in fear of overnerfing a race and unbalancing a match up. 6 is just a smaller nerf to TvT doom drops and just makes terrans need to spread out tanks between medivacs and slightly hurts the amount of units they can fit in a drop. 8 really nerfs the game ending TvT doom drops. marine drops are unaffected so it's not like the TvT midgame will suddenly lose all attack potential. not to mention you can't even do 6 in the SC2 editor according to people on reddit and blizzard hates using numbers that don't fit their pattern and @ the people complaining about vZ and vP being nerfed how often do you actually doom drop with tanks in those match ups? you can still save tanks in retreat just fine seeing as you will nearly always have a higher medivac count than tank count it's not like the game is 100% balanced right now anyways so who cares if this MICROTESIMAL nerf to other match ups is a side effect if it makes TvT so much better to watch/play | ||
c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
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Thaniri
1264 Posts
Disable medivac boost for this matchup. Have a voiceover of Dustin Browder saying "the technology just isnt there yet" every time you press the button. Remember what makes doom drops annoying is the speed of them. Doom drops were beginning to be a problem in HoTS with boosted medivacs, then sieged tank pickup became ridiculous. Mind you: I don't think doom drops currently are all that big of a deal. At a high level of play, if you have good enough map awareness you can crush a doom drop. | ||
avilo
United States4100 Posts
Then just hold it off and get a freewin. | ||
BronzeKnee
United States5207 Posts
On February 17 2017 13:02 Thaniri wrote: Most everyone agrees that WoL TvT was the best TvT. WOL TvZ was also the best, at least until Infestors went into common usage. That was also the game at it's peak. Medivac Boost is a terrible idea, always has been. The counter to drops is shooting them down, Boosters make it difficult, limiting counterplay, just like Warp Prism range pickup limits counterplay versus Warp Prism drops. | ||
Fatam
1986 Posts
I'm not saying necessarily remove it from the game. It's deeply entangled in the game's balance at this point and the ramifications of removing it would be big. But at least increase the cooldown (so you actually have to think strategically about when you should use it, or whether you should hold off and save it for when you really need it badly) or make it cost a decent amount of mana. | ||
AzureKnight
United States25 Posts
I'm deeply pleased that the conversation made it to that subject on it's own. In other news, I'd love to see an exploration of the cooldown of boost being nerfed. Preferably by a lot, like 30 seconds or more. Naturally I'm also open to the idea of boost costing energy. I only somewhat agree with the likening of boost to prism pickup range. It does limit reaction counterplay but it does NOT impact the case of trying to get in against a well prepared player, which boost totally does. To those who are saying "Doom drops are good for TvT", I am only really somewhat disagreeing with you. The problem I have with doom drops as they currently exist is that they are too good, you can fly into and drop on top of like four missle turrets and still reasonably expect to deal a ton of damage, which in my opinion is a bit much. | ||
Paulfirelordmu
10 Posts
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dacSyzygy
Germany42 Posts
So either make the afterburners an ability that has to be researched at the techlab for a nice amount of mins/gas/time and increase the cooldown a lot or at least make it energy-based so boosting the speed limits the healing abilities and excessive healing prevents boosted escapes. | ||
fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3954 Posts
On February 17 2017 13:02 Thaniri wrote: Disable medivac boost for this matchup. Have a voiceover of Dustin Browder saying "the technology just isnt there yet" every time you press the button. wins the thread. | ||
Infiiiniity
45 Posts
On February 17 2017 13:02 Thaniri wrote: Mind you: I don't think doom drops currently are all that big of a deal. At a high level of play, if you have good enough map awareness you can crush a doom drop. This. Doom drops can be annoying as hell if you dont have map vision/sensor towers. But they are always defendable. So if a doom drops kills you its your own fault because you were out of position. Nerfing doom drops seems like a bad idea to me. They are an important tool to have. Especially against early or mid game mech play. | ||
maitiky
Czech Republic54 Posts
On February 17 2017 17:46 dacSyzygy wrote: I also think that the medivac boost is the bigger problem here, it makes interception of incoming drops extremely difficult, static defense almost useless and ensures the successful escape in case the terran wants to retreat. Its a lot too rewarding for its cost. So either make the afterburners an ability that has to be researched at the techlab for a nice amount of mins/gas/time and increase the cooldown a lot or at least make it energy-based so boosting the speed limits the healing abilities and excessive healing prevents boosted escapes. +1 | ||
todespolka
221 Posts
You can put a sensor tower and turrets and/or create a perimeter. You can keep a small army with static defense. You can expand so, that you minimize the surface, where they can drop. But the best way is probably to move your army so, that you can catch drops before they happen. Doom drops have many counters. In fact terran drops are a bigger problem for other races. But it is part of the game and each race has a lot of options to counter it. This makes sc2 a strategy game! | ||
VHbb
688 Posts
On February 17 2017 20:16 todespolka wrote: How about finding a strategical solution instead of changing the game? You can put a sensor tower and turrets and/or create a perimeter. You can keep a small army with static defense. You can expand so, that you minimize the surface, where they can drop. But the best way is probably to move your army so, that you can catch drops before they happen. Doom drops have many counters. In fact terran drops are a bigger problem for other races. But it is part of the game and each race has a lot of options to counter it. This makes sc2 a strategy game! I fully agree.. these threads keep popping up, but it always feel like it's a "Wannabe game designer mega-thread" If you struggle against something it doesn't mean it's "bad design" or "bad unit interaction", maybe there are solutions which haven't been explored yet. Mech players *always* ask for more positional games, it seems to me that positioning your army to prevent doom drops or to react accordingly could be "positional gameplay" right? I don't want to see TvT where each player sieges and turtles all game long because their positions are unbreakable. I understand that right now terrans are the majority of the playerbase (maybe I'm wrong), but it seems every week there are 1-2 new threads of "game design": I will *always* trust blizzard over someone on TL, unless it's the opinion of a pro that knows the game in and out.. To add to this, most comments in these threads are super harsh and expressed with tones that would never be used in a real conversation, which makes it really toxic to read.. | ||
Hadronsbecrazy
United Kingdom551 Posts
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
Medivac Boost is a terrible idea, always has been. The counter to drops is shooting them down, Boosters make it difficult, limiting counterplay, just like Warp Prism range pickup limits counterplay versus Warp Prism drops. I only somewhat agree with the likening of boost to prism pickup range. It does limit reaction counterplay but it does NOT impact the case of trying to get in against a well prepared player, which boost totally does. The big difference there is that Prisms take primarily shield damage. Even if you can't kill Medivacs, because of their pickup range you have to expose them to fire and you can eventually force them out. The Prism stays in until it really truly dies. That said, turning the Prism into a normal dropship instead of the lulzball it's now (even keeping the auto-proxy because we'll never actually get rid of that abomination of a mechanic) and slowing down boosted medivacs a bit so they take more fire sounds like a nice idea. Far from the most important problems in the game, but... | ||
WhosQuany
Germany257 Posts
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KOtical
Germany451 Posts
just build some vikings or turrets, or just have a good position with a squad of marines... so instead of nerfing everything can people just start to adept ? i mean sc1 and bw didnt had any changes for years and people still found out things and adepted to certain builds and situations... instead nowadays everybody just runs to a forum and starts to cry... | ||
Fatam
1986 Posts
On February 17 2017 20:21 VHbb wrote: Show nested quote + On February 17 2017 20:16 todespolka wrote: How about finding a strategical solution instead of changing the game? You can put a sensor tower and turrets and/or create a perimeter. You can keep a small army with static defense. You can expand so, that you minimize the surface, where they can drop. But the best way is probably to move your army so, that you can catch drops before they happen. Doom drops have many counters. In fact terran drops are a bigger problem for other races. But it is part of the game and each race has a lot of options to counter it. This makes sc2 a strategy game! I fully agree.. these threads keep popping up, but it always feel like it's a "Wannabe game designer mega-thread" If you struggle against something it doesn't mean it's "bad design" or "bad unit interaction", maybe there are solutions which haven't been explored yet. Mech players *always* ask for more positional games, it seems to me that positioning your army to prevent doom drops or to react accordingly could be "positional gameplay" right? I don't want to see TvT where each player sieges and turtles all game long because their positions are unbreakable. I understand that right now terrans are the majority of the playerbase (maybe I'm wrong), but it seems every week there are 1-2 new threads of "game design": I will *always* trust blizzard over someone on TL, unless it's the opinion of a pro that knows the game in and out.. To add to this, most comments in these threads are super harsh and expressed with tones that would never be used in a real conversation, which makes it really toxic to read.. I think on the other side of the coin, just because it's possible to deal with something in-game, doesn't mean it's not bad game design. IMO medivac boost is bad game design because the risk/reward relationship is really off. I'm not just saying that because I'm an armchair game designer or whatever | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On February 17 2017 23:57 Fatam wrote: Show nested quote + On February 17 2017 20:21 VHbb wrote: On February 17 2017 20:16 todespolka wrote: How about finding a strategical solution instead of changing the game? You can put a sensor tower and turrets and/or create a perimeter. You can keep a small army with static defense. You can expand so, that you minimize the surface, where they can drop. But the best way is probably to move your army so, that you can catch drops before they happen. Doom drops have many counters. In fact terran drops are a bigger problem for other races. But it is part of the game and each race has a lot of options to counter it. This makes sc2 a strategy game! I fully agree.. these threads keep popping up, but it always feel like it's a "Wannabe game designer mega-thread" If you struggle against something it doesn't mean it's "bad design" or "bad unit interaction", maybe there are solutions which haven't been explored yet. Mech players *always* ask for more positional games, it seems to me that positioning your army to prevent doom drops or to react accordingly could be "positional gameplay" right? I don't want to see TvT where each player sieges and turtles all game long because their positions are unbreakable. I understand that right now terrans are the majority of the playerbase (maybe I'm wrong), but it seems every week there are 1-2 new threads of "game design": I will *always* trust blizzard over someone on TL, unless it's the opinion of a pro that knows the game in and out.. To add to this, most comments in these threads are super harsh and expressed with tones that would never be used in a real conversation, which makes it really toxic to read.. I think on the other side of the coin, just because it's possible to deal with something in-game, doesn't mean it's not bad game design. IMO medivac boost is bad game design because the risk/reward relationship is really off. I wanted to make a similar comment. You also have to consider that (bio) terran gets medivacs no matter what anyway, so the investment to do a doomdrop is basically not there, it develops naturally. That's something i really dislike about medivacs in general tbh. It gives terran something to circumvent any terrain and that in every single game. I think that alone is way off in terms of gamedesign tbh. You could argue that it comes kinda late in the game and thus isn't a big deal, but i am not so sure about that either. But the medivac itself won't ever change so removing the boost is the next best thing, so yeah i agree with that. (also means other things need change most likely, but that's not a bad thing) | ||
c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
On February 18 2017 00:03 The_Red_Viper wrote: Show nested quote + On February 17 2017 23:57 Fatam wrote: On February 17 2017 20:21 VHbb wrote: On February 17 2017 20:16 todespolka wrote: How about finding a strategical solution instead of changing the game? You can put a sensor tower and turrets and/or create a perimeter. You can keep a small army with static defense. You can expand so, that you minimize the surface, where they can drop. But the best way is probably to move your army so, that you can catch drops before they happen. Doom drops have many counters. In fact terran drops are a bigger problem for other races. But it is part of the game and each race has a lot of options to counter it. This makes sc2 a strategy game! I fully agree.. these threads keep popping up, but it always feel like it's a "Wannabe game designer mega-thread" If you struggle against something it doesn't mean it's "bad design" or "bad unit interaction", maybe there are solutions which haven't been explored yet. Mech players *always* ask for more positional games, it seems to me that positioning your army to prevent doom drops or to react accordingly could be "positional gameplay" right? I don't want to see TvT where each player sieges and turtles all game long because their positions are unbreakable. I understand that right now terrans are the majority of the playerbase (maybe I'm wrong), but it seems every week there are 1-2 new threads of "game design": I will *always* trust blizzard over someone on TL, unless it's the opinion of a pro that knows the game in and out.. To add to this, most comments in these threads are super harsh and expressed with tones that would never be used in a real conversation, which makes it really toxic to read.. I think on the other side of the coin, just because it's possible to deal with something in-game, doesn't mean it's not bad game design. IMO medivac boost is bad game design because the risk/reward relationship is really off. I wanted to make a similar comment. You also have to consider that (bio) terran gets medivacs no matter what anyway, so the investment to do a doomdrop is basically not there, it develops naturally. That's something i really dislike about medivacs in general tbh. It gives terran something to circumvent any terrain and that in every single game. I think that alone is way off in terms of gamedesign tbh. You could argue that it comes kinda late in the game and thus isn't a big deal, but i am not so sure about that either. But the medivac itself won't ever change so removing the boost is the next best thing, so yeah i agree with that. (also means other things need change most likely, but that's not a bad thing) as much as i agree with most of this post, i have no idea how id win a gaem as terran vp/z without current bio forces/medivac forces. factory units are just so fucking bad, idk. even with all the buffs, terran is balanced around bio being broken so everything else sucks. like siege tanks basically do twice as much damage to zealots as they did in their weakest stage, and they are still totally garbage vs toss (its definitely one of the "better" factory/starport units) | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On February 18 2017 00:12 c0sm0naut wrote: Show nested quote + On February 18 2017 00:03 The_Red_Viper wrote: On February 17 2017 23:57 Fatam wrote: On February 17 2017 20:21 VHbb wrote: On February 17 2017 20:16 todespolka wrote: How about finding a strategical solution instead of changing the game? You can put a sensor tower and turrets and/or create a perimeter. You can keep a small army with static defense. You can expand so, that you minimize the surface, where they can drop. But the best way is probably to move your army so, that you can catch drops before they happen. Doom drops have many counters. In fact terran drops are a bigger problem for other races. But it is part of the game and each race has a lot of options to counter it. This makes sc2 a strategy game! I fully agree.. these threads keep popping up, but it always feel like it's a "Wannabe game designer mega-thread" If you struggle against something it doesn't mean it's "bad design" or "bad unit interaction", maybe there are solutions which haven't been explored yet. Mech players *always* ask for more positional games, it seems to me that positioning your army to prevent doom drops or to react accordingly could be "positional gameplay" right? I don't want to see TvT where each player sieges and turtles all game long because their positions are unbreakable. I understand that right now terrans are the majority of the playerbase (maybe I'm wrong), but it seems every week there are 1-2 new threads of "game design": I will *always* trust blizzard over someone on TL, unless it's the opinion of a pro that knows the game in and out.. To add to this, most comments in these threads are super harsh and expressed with tones that would never be used in a real conversation, which makes it really toxic to read.. I think on the other side of the coin, just because it's possible to deal with something in-game, doesn't mean it's not bad game design. IMO medivac boost is bad game design because the risk/reward relationship is really off. I wanted to make a similar comment. You also have to consider that (bio) terran gets medivacs no matter what anyway, so the investment to do a doomdrop is basically not there, it develops naturally. That's something i really dislike about medivacs in general tbh. It gives terran something to circumvent any terrain and that in every single game. I think that alone is way off in terms of gamedesign tbh. You could argue that it comes kinda late in the game and thus isn't a big deal, but i am not so sure about that either. But the medivac itself won't ever change so removing the boost is the next best thing, so yeah i agree with that. (also means other things need change most likely, but that's not a bad thing) as much as i agree with most of this post, i have no idea how id win a gaem as terran vp/z without current bio forces/medivac forces. factory units are just so fucking bad, idk. even with all the buffs, terran is balanced around bio being broken so everything else sucks. like siege tanks basically do twice as much damage to zealots as they did in their weakest stage, and they are still totally garbage vs toss (its definitely one of the "better" factory/starport units) Oh yeah i am not saying that you could change that atm and have a balanced game without a lot of other changes as well. I am simply saying i dislike it quite a lot. But yeah you cannot realistically change that anymore, at least not if blizzard isn't willing to do a lot of work. So i am fine with smaller changes, like removing the booster and balance around that | ||
JimmyJRaynor
Canada15564 Posts
On February 17 2017 01:49 verlar wrote: Doomdrops are part of TvT. When you cant break siege line of your opponent you do doomdrop, otherwise you both will just stare at sieged tanks for 30 minutes. Tankivacs made doomdrops much weaker while many poeple thougt that every terran will just drop tanks in opponent base. In my opinion change from this topic would not change much. Terran while doomdropping has enough medivacs to take everything. Top players (like top 8) know where is opponent army, when something is missing they immediately defend their main base. I requires a lot of experience, good positioning, good scouting, several marines spreaded out on map. Overall, sorry but TvT is very dynamic matchup. The dps is insane, even without tanks marines kill buildings very fast. 1 tank less wont change anything. Maybe better make upgrade for sensor tower that it will see whole map xD i pretty much agree with everything in this post... even the joke at the end is good. | ||
brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On February 18 2017 00:12 c0sm0naut wrote:factory units are just so fucking bad, idk. even with all the buffs, terran is balanced around bio being broken so everything else sucks. terrans will literally always say this no matter what if factory units arent completely broken and stupid beyond any doubt (like beta warhounds and cyclones) terrans will call them useless | ||
Zulu23
Germany132 Posts
this doesn't affect TvZ/TvP at all it does actually... so its no route that shall be considered. Medivacs are your problem... nerfing drops will make T to turtle and be passive all day long, because there is no other viable option to counter or suprize the other T. | ||
c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
On February 18 2017 00:38 brickrd wrote: Show nested quote + On February 18 2017 00:12 c0sm0naut wrote:factory units are just so fucking bad, idk. even with all the buffs, terran is balanced around bio being broken so everything else sucks. terrans will literally always say this no matter what if factory units arent completely broken and stupid beyond any doubt (like beta warhounds and cyclones) terrans will call them useless not the convo i was looking for, also i play random we are discussing implications of larger nerfs to the medivac if you would like to join us. not going to spend m,ore than 1 sentence explaining 2 u why progamers who put in 8 hr days for a little over a half decade havent discovered a more gamewinning strategy than loading upgraded marines into a unit that bypasses terrain | ||
egrimm
Poland1196 Posts
On February 18 2017 00:03 The_Red_Viper wrote: Show nested quote + On February 17 2017 23:57 Fatam wrote: On February 17 2017 20:21 VHbb wrote: On February 17 2017 20:16 todespolka wrote: How about finding a strategical solution instead of changing the game? You can put a sensor tower and turrets and/or create a perimeter. You can keep a small army with static defense. You can expand so, that you minimize the surface, where they can drop. But the best way is probably to move your army so, that you can catch drops before they happen. Doom drops have many counters. In fact terran drops are a bigger problem for other races. But it is part of the game and each race has a lot of options to counter it. This makes sc2 a strategy game! I fully agree.. these threads keep popping up, but it always feel like it's a "Wannabe game designer mega-thread" If you struggle against something it doesn't mean it's "bad design" or "bad unit interaction", maybe there are solutions which haven't been explored yet. Mech players *always* ask for more positional games, it seems to me that positioning your army to prevent doom drops or to react accordingly could be "positional gameplay" right? I don't want to see TvT where each player sieges and turtles all game long because their positions are unbreakable. I understand that right now terrans are the majority of the playerbase (maybe I'm wrong), but it seems every week there are 1-2 new threads of "game design": I will *always* trust blizzard over someone on TL, unless it's the opinion of a pro that knows the game in and out.. To add to this, most comments in these threads are super harsh and expressed with tones that would never be used in a real conversation, which makes it really toxic to read.. I think on the other side of the coin, just because it's possible to deal with something in-game, doesn't mean it's not bad game design. IMO medivac boost is bad game design because the risk/reward relationship is really off. I wanted to make a similar comment. You also have to consider that (bio) terran gets medivacs no matter what anyway, so the investment to do a doomdrop is basically not there, it develops naturally. That's something i really dislike about medivacs in general tbh. Fully agree. On paper Medivacs as a combination of medic + dropship makes sense. Also we can see the unit all the time in Terran games, played a lot and used in many situations so it would seem it is more than ok design. However the combination of both medic and dropship forces bio play into one specific gamestyle: drop&stim. It is cool strategy ofc and It should stay in the game by any means. But on the other hand You cannot play slightly different approaches to bio like for example mass bio, muscle play but without drops or on totally opposite direction mass drops but without the stim+medic efficiency, cut gas for medics for more drops and faster idk transition into something else. This is the thing when You go for bio you simply cannot skip dropping as You have to have healing for your army which comes with droping ability and if you don't use it you're wasting part of your investment into medivac. The game is obv balanced around using all your tools efficiently so not dropping is not viable strategy. | ||
JimmyJRaynor
Canada15564 Posts
On February 17 2017 13:15 avilo wrote: Every TvT i play atm is "locate the 8 hidden medivacs on the map". Then just hold it off and get a freewin. due to your repetitive and stale play style as soon as an opponent sees your name they know what you are going to do. They also know the standard counter is a JuggernautJason style doom stop. furthermore, according to you, a substantial portion of your TvT losses are due to being stream sniped. therefore, this experience of yours is not evidence that the Tank's Supply cost inside a medivac should be increased. | ||
saalih416
19 Posts
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_Epi_
Germany158 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5207 Posts
On February 17 2017 20:21 VHbb wrote: Show nested quote + On February 17 2017 20:16 todespolka wrote: How about finding a strategical solution instead of changing the game? You can put a sensor tower and turrets and/or create a perimeter. You can keep a small army with static defense. You can expand so, that you minimize the surface, where they can drop. But the best way is probably to move your army so, that you can catch drops before they happen. Doom drops have many counters. In fact terran drops are a bigger problem for other races. But it is part of the game and each race has a lot of options to counter it. This makes sc2 a strategy game! I fully agree.. these threads keep popping up, but it always feel like it's a "Wannabe game designer mega-thread" If you struggle against something it doesn't mean it's "bad design" or "bad unit interaction", maybe there are solutions which haven't been explored yet. Mech players *always* ask for more positional games, it seems to me that positioning your army to prevent doom drops or to react accordingly could be "positional gameplay" right? I don't want to see TvT where each player sieges and turtles all game long because their positions are unbreakable. I understand that right now terrans are the majority of the playerbase (maybe I'm wrong), but it seems every week there are 1-2 new threads of "game design": I will *always* trust blizzard over someone on TL, unless it's the opinion of a pro that knows the game in and out.. To add to this, most comments in these threads are super harsh and expressed with tones that would never be used in a real conversation, which makes it really toxic to read.. Don't trust experts just because they experts, that is an argument of authority and it fallacious. Trust ideas because you've read them and understand them. Game design isn't rocket science, and the same arguments you're pedaling were used to defend Vortex, Broodlord/Infestor and mass Swarm Hosts in HOTS, all of which were eventually nerfed because there was not suitable counterplay, which is a lynchpin of modern game design. David Kim didn't think Broodlord/Infestor was overpowered and let it sit and ruin the game for years. If you believed him then, you were ignorant. If you believe him now, you're a fool, and I'd say that right to your face and I don't believe that is toxic because I know what the definition of a fool is. He has stated over and over that X isn't a problem when the community brings it up, only to be wrong and months later have to change X anyway. Actions matter, consequences matter, accountability matters, responsibility matters. The choices people make matter. He has made far more mistakes that designers of other games and should be held accountable for that. | ||
VHbb
688 Posts
On February 18 2017 02:18 BronzeKnee wrote: Show nested quote + On February 17 2017 20:21 VHbb wrote: On February 17 2017 20:16 todespolka wrote: How about finding a strategical solution instead of changing the game? You can put a sensor tower and turrets and/or create a perimeter. You can keep a small army with static defense. You can expand so, that you minimize the surface, where they can drop. But the best way is probably to move your army so, that you can catch drops before they happen. Doom drops have many counters. In fact terran drops are a bigger problem for other races. But it is part of the game and each race has a lot of options to counter it. This makes sc2 a strategy game! I fully agree.. these threads keep popping up, but it always feel like it's a "Wannabe game designer mega-thread" If you struggle against something it doesn't mean it's "bad design" or "bad unit interaction", maybe there are solutions which haven't been explored yet. Mech players *always* ask for more positional games, it seems to me that positioning your army to prevent doom drops or to react accordingly could be "positional gameplay" right? I don't want to see TvT where each player sieges and turtles all game long because their positions are unbreakable. I understand that right now terrans are the majority of the playerbase (maybe I'm wrong), but it seems every week there are 1-2 new threads of "game design": I will *always* trust blizzard over someone on TL, unless it's the opinion of a pro that knows the game in and out.. To add to this, most comments in these threads are super harsh and expressed with tones that would never be used in a real conversation, which makes it really toxic to read.. Don't trust experts just because they experts, that is an argument of authority and it fallacious. Trust ideas because you've read them and understand them. Game design isn't rocket science, and the same arguments you're pedaling were used to defend Vortex, Broodlord/Infestor and mass Swarm Hosts in HOTS, all of which were eventually nerfed because there was not suitable counterplay, which is a lynchpin of modern game design. David Kim didn't think Broodlord/Infestor was overpowered and let it sit and ruin the game for years. If you believed him then, you were ignorant. If you believe him now, you're a fool, and I'd say that right to your face and I don't believe that is toxic because I know what the definition of a fool is. He has stated over and over that X isn't a problem when the community brings it up, only to be wrong and months later have to change X anyway. Actions matter, consequences matter, accountability matters, responsibility matters. The choices people make matter. He has made far more mistakes that designers of other games and should be held accountable for that. Look, I understand this is a forum about Starcraft, but we are talking about a videogame, you talk like you are discussing matters of life and death I am not expert enough to judge SC2 balancing or "lynchpin of modern game design", so I rely on the assessments of proplayers and people that works in this field - I don't think this makes me a fool, but I don't want to engage in discussion with this tone on SC2 balance.. It's nice to chat about what could improve SC2, but insulting people that work on it it's (in my opinion!) a bit extreme.. | ||
JimmyJRaynor
Canada15564 Posts
On February 18 2017 02:18 BronzeKnee wrote: Actions matter, consequences matter, accountability matters, responsibility matters. The choices people make matter. He has made far more mistakes that designers of other games and should be held accountable for that. there is a gang of "game design experts" claiming Jeff Kaplan is a moron and every other Blizzard game is really well managed and that's why ATVI continues to have increasing revenues year after year after year after year after year. there is a gang of "game design experts" claiming Josh Moshquiera was a moron and every other Blizzard game is really well managed and that's why ATVI continues to have increasing revenues year after year after year after year after year. there is a gang of "game design experts" claiming Ben Brode is a moron and every other Blizzard game is really well managed.. you get the idea. you guys should all get together and debate who the biggest idiot is amongst all the idiots designing all these Blizzard games. Meanwhile, ATVI is in a layoff phase right now ... 5% reduction in work force.. maybe you can convince them to include all the idiots designing all these Blizzard games in this layoff phase. IMO, David Kim is doing a great job and his changes to from HotS to LotV made the game more fun. I'm 100% satisfied with the money i've spent on the SC2 franchise. The only thing causing a decline in my SC2 play time is Overwatch. On February 18 2017 01:53 saalih416 wrote: I think the first step would be to revert all the unit stats to their original BroodWar stats and removing any units that weren't in BroodWar. they should also shave Raynor's head too! | ||
AzureKnight
United States25 Posts
How about finding a strategical solution instead of changing the game? This is kind of dodging the conversation. I don't think anyone is asserting that doom drops are super OP and ruining 100% of all TvT or anything, you know? Rather, let's all keep working on generating the ideas that would make starcraft the best game it could ever possibly be. =) That said, there might be room for some pretty silly solutions like lolturretrange or suchlike, which even though it's kind of a joke range upgrades are among the most powerful kinds of upgrades... =3 pretty sure doom drops were in WoL too, for those saying remove medivac boost. Sure, doom drops have always been around and removing (or heavily nerfing) boost obviously wouldn't remove doom drops from the game. That said, go into a unit tester or something and compare six unboosted medivacs dropping into 4 missle turrets to six boosted medivacs and tell me how you feel about the difference. I already know how i feel about it but i'd be very happy to hear your opinion as well! Maybe make sure bio is 2/2 for your test. The big difference there is that Prisms take primarily shield damage..... Yeah that's a fair point, it is pretty challenging to drive out/kill a prism with anything less than a viking. If we were gonna do some things that slow the game down a bit like medivac boost nerfs I'd be very open to the idea of prism pickup nerf as well. Factories are for losers and stuff Maaaan i don't even think there's anything wrong with factory units. I'd rather say the counters available to protoss and zerg are just too strong. I think immortals and blinding cloud (and to a lesser extent, swarm hosts) are pretty awfully implimented, but maybe that's a conversation for another thread about hard counters being too hard. I'm also a random player. ♥ | ||
JimmyJRaynor
Canada15564 Posts
On February 18 2017 02:46 VHbb wrote: I don't think this makes me a fool, but I don't want to engage in discussion with this tone on SC2 balance.. It's nice to chat about what could improve SC2, but insulting people that work on it it's (in my opinion!) a bit extreme.. you'll be missed man. sry to see you go. some people like to "conclude" any "discussion" with anyone who disagrees that the other person is an idiot/fool/moron. it adds nothing and in fact lowers the signal-to-noise ratio of their post. | ||
ThunderJunk
United States576 Posts
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Fatam
1986 Posts
On February 18 2017 00:03 The_Red_Viper wrote: Show nested quote + On February 17 2017 23:57 Fatam wrote: On February 17 2017 20:21 VHbb wrote: On February 17 2017 20:16 todespolka wrote: How about finding a strategical solution instead of changing the game? You can put a sensor tower and turrets and/or create a perimeter. You can keep a small army with static defense. You can expand so, that you minimize the surface, where they can drop. But the best way is probably to move your army so, that you can catch drops before they happen. Doom drops have many counters. In fact terran drops are a bigger problem for other races. But it is part of the game and each race has a lot of options to counter it. This makes sc2 a strategy game! I fully agree.. these threads keep popping up, but it always feel like it's a "Wannabe game designer mega-thread" If you struggle against something it doesn't mean it's "bad design" or "bad unit interaction", maybe there are solutions which haven't been explored yet. Mech players *always* ask for more positional games, it seems to me that positioning your army to prevent doom drops or to react accordingly could be "positional gameplay" right? I don't want to see TvT where each player sieges and turtles all game long because their positions are unbreakable. I understand that right now terrans are the majority of the playerbase (maybe I'm wrong), but it seems every week there are 1-2 new threads of "game design": I will *always* trust blizzard over someone on TL, unless it's the opinion of a pro that knows the game in and out.. To add to this, most comments in these threads are super harsh and expressed with tones that would never be used in a real conversation, which makes it really toxic to read.. I think on the other side of the coin, just because it's possible to deal with something in-game, doesn't mean it's not bad game design. IMO medivac boost is bad game design because the risk/reward relationship is really off. I wanted to make a similar comment. You also have to consider that (bio) terran gets medivacs no matter what anyway, so the investment to do a doomdrop is basically not there, it develops naturally. That's something i really dislike about medivacs in general tbh. It gives terran something to circumvent any terrain and that in every single game. I think that alone is way off in terms of gamedesign tbh. You could argue that it comes kinda late in the game and thus isn't a big deal, but i am not so sure about that either. But the medivac itself won't ever change so removing the boost is the next best thing, so yeah i agree with that. (also means other things need change most likely, but that's not a bad thing) Yeah I always forget to mention that, great point. And also IMO it's bad design if there is a unit above T1 that you're always feeling obligated to get. | ||
Moonsalt
264 Posts
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TheKhyira
115 Posts
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Vutalisk
United States679 Posts
After watching the first game between Maru and KeeN, I totally agree with this suggestion. The big doom drop is just making TvT painful to watch. Auto GG pretty much. You should submit this suggestion to Blizzard forum or something. With how strong the sieged tank is, it should take the whole medivac. | ||
Elentos
55454 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15614 Posts
On February 18 2017 03:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Show nested quote + On February 18 2017 02:18 BronzeKnee wrote: Actions matter, consequences matter, accountability matters, responsibility matters. The choices people make matter. He has made far more mistakes that designers of other games and should be held accountable for that. there is a gang of "game design experts" claiming Jeff Kaplan is a moron and every other Blizzard game is really well managed and that's why ATVI continues to have increasing revenues year after year after year after year after year. there is a gang of "game design experts" claiming Josh Moshquiera was a moron and every other Blizzard game is really well managed and that's why ATVI continues to have increasing revenues year after year after year after year after year. there is a gang of "game design experts" claiming Ben Brode is a moron and every other Blizzard game is really well managed.. you get the idea. you guys should all get together and debate who the biggest idiot is amongst all the idiots designing all these Blizzard games. Meanwhile, ATVI is in a layoff phase right now ... 5% reduction in work force.. maybe you can convince them to include all the idiots designing all these Blizzard games in this layoff phase. IMO, David Kim is doing a great job and his changes to from HotS to LotV made the game more fun. I'm 100% satisfied with the money i've spent on the SC2 franchise. The only thing causing a decline in my SC2 play time is Overwatch. Show nested quote + On February 18 2017 01:53 saalih416 wrote: I think the first step would be to revert all the unit stats to their original BroodWar stats and removing any units that weren't in BroodWar. they should also shave Raynor's head too! You might be my favourite poster on TL keep going! | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On February 18 2017 20:39 Charoisaur wrote: Show nested quote + On February 18 2017 03:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: On February 18 2017 02:18 BronzeKnee wrote: Actions matter, consequences matter, accountability matters, responsibility matters. The choices people make matter. He has made far more mistakes that designers of other games and should be held accountable for that. there is a gang of "game design experts" claiming Jeff Kaplan is a moron and every other Blizzard game is really well managed and that's why ATVI continues to have increasing revenues year after year after year after year after year. there is a gang of "game design experts" claiming Josh Moshquiera was a moron and every other Blizzard game is really well managed and that's why ATVI continues to have increasing revenues year after year after year after year after year. there is a gang of "game design experts" claiming Ben Brode is a moron and every other Blizzard game is really well managed.. you get the idea. you guys should all get together and debate who the biggest idiot is amongst all the idiots designing all these Blizzard games. Meanwhile, ATVI is in a layoff phase right now ... 5% reduction in work force.. maybe you can convince them to include all the idiots designing all these Blizzard games in this layoff phase. IMO, David Kim is doing a great job and his changes to from HotS to LotV made the game more fun. I'm 100% satisfied with the money i've spent on the SC2 franchise. The only thing causing a decline in my SC2 play time is Overwatch. On February 18 2017 01:53 saalih416 wrote: I think the first step would be to revert all the unit stats to their original BroodWar stats and removing any units that weren't in BroodWar. they should also shave Raynor's head too! You might be my favourite poster on TL keep going! Yeah only ever talking about money is so interesting | ||
JimmyJRaynor
Canada15564 Posts
the other poster started yappin' about David Kim... and he proceeded to push away an earnest contributor to the thread with insults. he brought up DK not me. most of my post discusses Blizzard and how "forum experts" perceive them. long term product engagement is objective proof of a quality product. let's see if everyone jumps over to Halo Wars 2 on February 21 or if everyone sticks with SC2. | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
That alone doesn't mean it's the best it could be, it only means it's the best option right now. It doesn't even mean that it's a good option or that the multiplayer aspect of it (which we discuss here) is the reason it's successful on the market. And no i don't expect halo wars 2 to be the better option | ||
ItsFunToLose
United States776 Posts
if sc2 players commented on broodwar balance, you'd hear the exact same whiney shit you're hearing now, and if they had their way they'd ruin the greatest game of all time with their petulant demands. "every time I go bio TvP I get stomped. wah wah wah build order loss" "every time I try to make hydras ZvZ, their mutas kill all my drones T.T, buff hydras, it won't affect ZvT or ZvP!" these are not new issues. learn to play the game you were given, not the game you wish blizzard made i am so fucking sick of reading threads on TvT/mech/why cant I do X every game and win? your conclusion that your proposed change would have "no" effect on TvP or TvZ balance whatsoever is so shortsighted, I can't even. ("it wouldn't effect 'my' TvP or TvZ or: it wouldn't affect 'proper' 'high level' TvP or TvZ....???) This just in, no one ever puts tanks in dropships unless their opponent is a Terran. | ||
JimmyJRaynor
Canada15564 Posts
On February 18 2017 23:56 The_Red_Viper wrote: It's just that you in general love to talk about the financial aspect when people talk about the game at hand. It's not doing anything, we all know that it's the most popular rts game atm. That alone doesn't mean it's the best it could be, it only means it's the best option right now. It doesn't even mean that it's a good option or that the multiplayer aspect of it (which we discuss here) is the reason it's successful on the market. And no i don't expect halo wars 2 to be the better option if you think i'm all about the financial aspect of the video game industry why don't you google the contents of my profile quote... that'll provide a glimpse into my perspective. trashing DK when its clear he has had the support of Browder, Sigaty, Morhaime, et al for years also accomplishes nothing. i think Morhaime, Sigaty and Browder are better at assessing who a good game designer is than the poster claiming DK is incompetent. i'll take the money Morhaime is spending on DK above the emotional forum posts of some guy with zero track record in game design. this poster devolved the thread into an attack on DK and i am providing a rational, reasonable rebuttal to that attack. | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Sigaty and Browder are better at assessing who a good game designer is than the poster claiming DK is incompetent. i'll take the money Morhaime is spending on DK above the emotional forum posts of some guy with zero track record in game design. That's purely appeal to authority though. I would rather look at arguments on why someone thinks that sc2 is well designed/not well designed and argue that point. And just because nobody here has a substantial "track record" in game design doesn't mean anything either. Games like dota and cs got created by people out of the community, community feeback was very important as well. So yes i absolutely think that there are people in the community who would do a better job than DK, just because he is in the actual position to have impact doesn't mean that he is in the right. As i said, argue about the game because that's the actual relevant part. | ||
JimmyJRaynor
Canada15564 Posts
On February 19 2017 03:24 The_Red_Viper wrote: Show nested quote + Sigaty and Browder are better at assessing who a good game designer is than the poster claiming DK is incompetent. i'll take the money Morhaime is spending on DK above the emotional forum posts of some guy with zero track record in game design. That's purely appeal to authority though. I would rather look at arguments on why someone thinks that sc2 is well designed/not well designed and argue that point. And just because nobody here has a substantial "track record" in game design doesn't mean anything either. Games like dota and cs got created by people out of the community, community feeback was very important as well. So yes i absolutely think that there are people in the community who would do a better job than DK, just because he is in the actual position to have impact doesn't mean that he is in the right. As i said, argue about the game because that's the actual relevant part. i posted my comments already about TvT doomdrops. track record is not an appeal to authority + Show Spoiler + a critical examination of a person's track record is the opposite of an appeal to authority. it is a component of every purchasing decision i make... and it becomes an important component in the games i decide to continue to play. i primarily play games i've had fun with in the past. games acquire a track record with me. a reputation if oyu will. i've had a damn lot of fun playing Morhaime's games from R'n'R Racing, to SC64 on the N64, to Brood War for PC, Overwatch and SC2. That decades long track record of personal fun that i've had goes a long, long way versus the words of someone else and has zero to do with an appeal to authority. Turning 1 gameplay element ( tvt doomdrops ) into "fire DK now" is off base. i'm playing Overwatch and SC2 2v2s all day today... i hope you're having fun. if you wish to continue this debate please PM me sir. On February 19 2017 03:24 The_Red_Viper wrote: As i said, argue about the game because that's the actual relevant part. tell the poster who devolved the thread into an attack on DK and began some ramble about "accountability". | ||
Fatam
1986 Posts
On February 19 2017 00:12 ItsFunToLose wrote: wah wah wah i don't like the emergent play at the highest levels. wah wah wah. might as well fucking throw sc2 in the god damn trash and start over if sc2 players commented on broodwar balance, you'd hear the exact same whiney shit you're hearing now, and if they had their way they'd ruin the greatest game of all time with their petulant demands. "every time I go bio TvP I get stomped. wah wah wah build order loss" "every time I try to make hydras ZvZ, their mutas kill all my drones T.T, buff hydras, it won't affect ZvT or ZvP!" these are not new issues. learn to play the game you were given, not the game you wish blizzard made i am so fucking sick of reading threads on TvT/mech/why cant I do X every game and win? your conclusion that your proposed change would have "no" effect on TvP or TvZ balance whatsoever is so shortsighted, I can't even. ("it wouldn't effect 'my' TvP or TvZ or: it wouldn't affect 'proper' 'high level' TvP or TvZ....???) This just in, no one ever puts tanks in dropships unless their opponent is a Terran. damn, we better close the thread because you're sick of people having balance discussions. We should never want the game that we love to improve and never question the designers' decisions. | ||
woopr
United States110 Posts
please blizzard put in a reasonable change to help TvT | ||
MiCroLiFe
Norway264 Posts
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Fatam
1986 Posts
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cutler
Germany609 Posts
On February 19 2017 00:12 ItsFunToLose wrote: learn to play the game you were given, not the game you wish blizzard made Best advice on TL General Forum for a very long time! | ||
lastprobeALIVE
United States973 Posts
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Phaenoman
568 Posts
On February 25 2017 21:39 cutler wrote: Show nested quote + On February 19 2017 00:12 ItsFunToLose wrote: learn to play the game you were given, not the game you wish blizzard made Best advice on TL General Forum for a very long time! Yea, sit there and do not use ur mental ability to improve or enhance any current situation. I mean it's obvious to look for an ingame solution/ build for something you are facing, but if it's unfun and frustrating for a majority, then thinking about a solution for a game that can still change (unlike BW) is more than reasonable imo. Cuz following your logic, there should be no balance and design patches caused by the community's initative. We just accept everything and are happy when we can vote for something new. | ||
ItsFunToLose
United States776 Posts
He has stated over and over that X isn't a problem when the community brings it up, only to be wrong and months later have to change X anyway. This does not logically necessitate that he was wrong if the sc2 community are a bunch of petulant whiners. if. Yea, sit there and do not use ur mental ability to improve or enhance any current situation. damn, we better close the thread because you're sick of people having balance discussions. We should never want the game that we love to improve and never question the designers' decisions. Lo! a strawman on the horizon! It's hilarious to me that this argument is getting spit in my face when I literally JUST got in an argument over the internet(very productive use of my time if you ask me), defending the pursuit of balance, regardless of how "close" you get, always striving for that perfect balance is absolutely an interesting topic. Let me be very clear, I am not saying "meh, its close enough, stop complaining, just be grateful for what blizzard gave you." That's fucking ridiculous. Thanks for assuming the best in me by strawmanning what I said super fucking hard and ignoring the bulk of my message. Appreciate it. Playing game designer for a day and pretending you have THE fix for the game, then suggesting an idea that absolutely impacts every terran matchup, pretending it doesnt, then dropping a shit tier hashtag is not a fucking thread. at least not one i'd spend my time defending. There are good conversations about balance. They happen. I promise. that being said... I'd bet everything I own that a double blind study would conclusively show that terran players(on average, not you, necessarily) are more likely to whine and less likely to persevere in the face of a challenge. These are behaviors we have a pretty solid handle at identifying accurately, it would be trivial to set up. (or do you think we have perfect racial balance w.r.t. whining?) For the record, I am not calling terran players whiney dorks who give up and cant think for themselves.(yet) I am simply stating that I believe that it is scientifically possible to identify character traits that correlate with (not cause) choosing to play terran for a large majority of your games(perhaps >50% of games(n>50) played as a specific race to qualify as a "main" of that race. willing to entertain other definitions that don't also include the random players i.e. people with 30 games total, 11, 5, 14 games for ZPT respectively would not make you a terran main even if in your mind you "switched" and played 14 straight). And the two character traits I am choosing to focus on are an individuals propensity to whine and give up. It is my hypothesis that Terran exhibits these traits a statistically significant amount of the time. the null hypothesis would obviously be that the three races whine equally. | ||
Phaenoman
568 Posts
On February 25 2017 22:47 ItsFunToLose wrote: Show nested quote + He has stated over and over that X isn't a problem when the community brings it up, only to be wrong and months later have to change X anyway. This does not logically necessitate that he was wrong if the sc2 community are a bunch of petulant whiners. if. Show nested quote + Yea, sit there and do not use ur mental ability to improve or enhance any current situation. Show nested quote + damn, we better close the thread because you're sick of people having balance discussions. We should never want the game that we love to improve and never question the designers' decisions. Lo! a strawman on the horizon! It's hilarious to me that this argument is getting spit in my face when I literally JUST got in an argument over the internet(very productive use of my time if you ask me), defending the pursuit of balance, regardless of how "close" you get, always striving for that perfect balance is absolutely an interesting topic. Let me be very clear, I am not saying "meh, its close enough, stop complaining, just be grateful for what blizzard gave you." That's fucking ridiculous. Thanks for assuming the best in me by strawmanning what I said super fucking hard and ignoring the bulk of my message. Appreciate it. Playing game designer for a day and pretending you have THE fix for the game, then suggesting an idea that absolutely impacts every terran matchup, pretending it doesnt, then dropping a shit tier hashtag is not a fucking thread. at least not one i'd spend my time defending. There are good conversations about balance. They happen. I promise. that being said... I'd bet everything I own that a double blind study would conclusively show that terran players(on average, not you, necessarily) are more likely to whine and less likely to persevere in the face of a challenge. These are behaviors we have a pretty solid handle at identifying accurately, it would be trivial to set up. (or do you think we have perfect racial balance w.r.t. whining?) For the record, I am not calling terran players whiney dorks who give up and cant think for themselves.(yet) I am simply stating that I believe that it is scientifically possible to identify character traits that correlate with (not cause) choosing to play terran for a large majority of your games(perhaps >50% of games(n>50) played as a specific race to qualify as a "main" of that race. willing to entertain other definitions that don't also include the random players i.e. people with 30 games total, 11, 5, 14 games for ZPT respectively would not make you a terran main even if in your mind you "switched" and played 14 straight). And the two character traits I am choosing to focus on are an individuals propensity to whine and give up. It is my hypothesis that Terran exhibits these traits a statistically significant amount of the time. the null hypothesis would obviously be that the three races whine equally. Impressive response and numbers. I am looking forward to the results of your research! For the record, I am not calling terran players whiney dorks who give up and cant think for themselves. And the two character traits I am choosing to focus on are an individuals propensity to whine and give up. It is my hypothesis that Terran exhibits these traits a statistically significant amount of the time. Dude, pls. | ||
woopr
United States110 Posts
On February 25 2017 22:47 ItsFunToLose wrote: + Show Spoiler + He has stated over and over that X isn't a problem when the community brings it up, only to be wrong and months later have to change X anyway. This does not logically necessitate that he was wrong if the sc2 community are a bunch of petulant whiners. if. Yea, sit there and do not use ur mental ability to improve or enhance any current situation. damn, we better close the thread because you're sick of people having balance discussions. We should never want the game that we love to improve and never question the designers' decisions. Lo! a strawman on the horizon! It's hilarious to me that this argument is getting spit in my face when I literally JUST got in an argument over the internet(very productive use of my time if you ask me), defending the pursuit of balance, regardless of how "close" you get, always striving for that perfect balance is absolutely an interesting topic. Let me be very clear, I am not saying "meh, its close enough, stop complaining, just be grateful for what blizzard gave you." That's fucking ridiculous. Thanks for assuming the best in me by strawmanning what I said super fucking hard and ignoring the bulk of my message. Appreciate it. Playing game designer for a day and pretending you have THE fix for the game, then suggesting an idea that absolutely impacts every terran matchup, pretending it doesnt, then dropping a shit tier hashtag is not a fucking thread. at least not one i'd spend my time defending. There are good conversations about balance. They happen. I promise. that being said... I'd bet everything I own that a double blind study would conclusively show that terran players(on average, not you, necessarily) are more likely to whine and less likely to persevere in the face of a challenge. These are behaviors we have a pretty solid handle at identifying accurately, it would be trivial to set up. (or do you think we have perfect racial balance w.r.t. whining?) For the record, I am not calling terran players whiney dorks who give up and cant think for themselves.(yet) I am simply stating that I believe that it is scientifically possible to identify character traits that correlate with (not cause) choosing to play terran for a large majority of your games(perhaps >50% of games(n>50) played as a specific race to qualify as a "main" of that race. willing to entertain other definitions that don't also include the random players i.e. people with 30 games total, 11, 5, 14 games for ZPT respectively would not make you a terran main even if in your mind you "switched" and played 14 straight). And the two character traits I am choosing to focus on are an individuals propensity to whine and give up. It is my hypothesis that Terran exhibits these traits a statistically significant amount of the time. the null hypothesis would obviously be that the three races whine equally. i already responded to the tvp/tvz """""""""issues""""""""" please read the thread if you're going to comment. i'll post it again: On February 17 2017 07:57 woopr wrote: and @ the people complaining about vZ and vP being nerfed how often do you actually doom drop with tanks in those match ups? you can still save tanks in retreat just fine seeing as you will nearly always have a higher medivac count than tank count it's not like the game is 100% balanced right now anyways so who cares if this MICROTESIMAL nerf to other match ups is a side effect if it makes TvT so much better to watch/play overall you're just flaming and showing your huge lack of starcraft knowledge. you have no good argument why the change is bad so stop trolling the thread | ||
Lexender
Mexico2609 Posts
On February 25 2017 22:47 ItsFunToLose wrote: I'd bet everything I own that a double blind study would conclusively show that terran players(on average, not you, necessarily) are more likely to whine and less likely to persevere in the face of a challenge. These are behaviors we have a pretty solid handle at identifying accurately, it would be trivial to set up. (or do you think we have perfect racial balance w.r.t. whining?) For the record, I am not calling terran players whiney dorks who give up and cant think for themselves.(yet) I am simply stating that I believe that it is scientifically possible to identify character traits that correlate with (not cause) choosing to play terran for a large majority of your games(perhaps >50% of games(n>50) played as a specific race to qualify as a "main" of that race. willing to entertain other definitions that don't also include the random players i.e. people with 30 games total, 11, 5, 14 games for ZPT respectively would not make you a terran main even if in your mind you "switched" and played 14 straight). And the two character traits I am choosing to focus on are an individuals propensity to whine and give up. It is my hypothesis that Terran exhibits these traits a statistically significant amount of the time. the null hypothesis would obviously be that the three races whine equally. I hope you get your research published, I know I'm looking forward to read it. I'm sure PubMed will be dying to have it, or maybe Cochrane. | ||
lestye
United States4098 Posts
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Hannibaal
41 Posts
I have seen the series of Maru against Ryung, that doesn't seem to me an RTS. | ||
cutler
Germany609 Posts
On February 25 2017 22:29 Phaenoman wrote: Show nested quote + On February 25 2017 21:39 cutler wrote: On February 19 2017 00:12 ItsFunToLose wrote: learn to play the game you were given, not the game you wish blizzard made Best advice on TL General Forum for a very long time! Yea, sit there and do not use ur mental ability to improve or enhance any current situation. I mean it's obvious to look for an ingame solution/ build for something you are facing, but if it's unfun and frustrating for a majority, then thinking about a solution for a game that can still change (unlike BW) is more than reasonable imo. Cuz following your logic, there should be no balance and design patches caused by the community's initative. We just accept everything and are happy when we can vote for something new. we can have balance changes...but majorty of TL and Reddit User think they are better designers than Blizzard. Suggest your changes but dont get frustated if people dont like it...seems like a lot of users want to change the game cause they think it is not fun to play that way. Take a break and come back some months later. Too much negativity around these days regarding minor balance issues. I agree that Doomdrops get boring... I would pay to see Threads with proper numbers and statistics again that proove that something is wrong. Today..."oh i can't win..well lets go and hate on Blizzard cause i am a much better game desginer yolo." | ||
Fatam
1986 Posts
(and a lot of this is about TvT, so of course there is no MU % there ) But just because it isn't something that can be quantified well, doesn't mean it doesn't need to be changed. During GGlord/winfestor era the ZvX winrates were actually pretty even, but the games were not fun (or fun to watch) so that is why it was changed. p.s. - stop trying to shame people for giving balance ideas just because they aren't working for Blizzard. It's sillyness. Community feedback has and will continue to be important. Of course, not every person's idea may be as well thought-out as another, but we shouldn't put a gag order on them just for giving their ideas. If the idea is bad, it won't gain headway.. so no worries. | ||
SiaBBo
Finland131 Posts
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On February 27 2017 06:30 SiaBBo wrote: Bad idea since doom drops are not even a big problem. They are part of the game like they were in Brood War. In Brood War players did drops with 10+ Dropships. Without that possibility the games would have been dreadful. Limiting drops would make the matchup even more turtle-heavy which wouldn't be a good thing at all. except that you don't play with ultra mobile marine + dropship in BW. it's not even an option. vultures can eventually kill the worker line, but they can't kill the command center. it's not so difficult keeping track of your army in sc2 in comparison, and drops are an easy and quicker option in this game. | ||
TheKhyira
115 Posts
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Fatam
1986 Posts
On February 27 2017 06:30 SiaBBo wrote: Bad idea since doom drops are not even a big problem. They are part of the game like they were in Brood War. In Brood War players did drops with 10+ Dropships. Without that possibility the games would have been dreadful. Limiting drops would make the matchup even more turtle-heavy which wouldn't be a good thing at all. I'd say that's false equivocation because TvT in SC2 certainly does not = TvT in BW | ||
Sound1
France93 Posts
On February 25 2017 15:29 MiCroLiFe wrote: I rather play whit doom drops than playin a 40 minute game every tvt. camping fest. whoever attacks first lose. Yeah. I have started this game at the end of WoL, and if my memory serves me correctly TvT was boring as hell. In the lowest leagues, terran turtling since BC pop out ...So annoying. How many times I left the game even before take a fight while we were at 20 minutes in game. I know medivac boost is very frustrating in TvT. Doomdrops can easily reverse the momentum for a player to another, but I suppose that is LOTV...play faster die faster. Some among us like that. Furthermore, medivac boost is just vital in TvZ and TvP to catch defences off guard, especially with photon overcharge and super queens. | ||
Elentos
55454 Posts
On February 16 2017 07:57 woopr wrote: this doesn't affect TvZ/TvP at all and makes TvT less retarded/insanely punishing TY doom dropped soO's main with tanks in GSL. | ||
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