This summer ,when they talked about patch 3.8,Blizzard devs stated that they aimed to make mech viale but without allowing Turtle mech to be a possibility.The problem is that with patch 3.8,the exact same units that promoted the turtle style in Hots have been buffed and the RavenvsSH war are back . People that play bio may don't know,but mech vs Zerg is absolutely annoying for both races.SH obligate the mech player to build Ravens to counter the free locust and Z must abuse the SH to avoid losing to mass autotorrets.And Ravens are even worse in mechvmech,where late game can easily be mass ravens vs mass ravens. Why don't nerf these two units?Don't wait years like it happened in HotS.These things hit the playerbase very hard.Don't forget we lose a good personality like Grubby because of things like the SH...
Nerfing both Swarm Hosts and Ravens is something that is universally agreed upon by almost all mech players.
Unfortunately Blizzard does seem to ignore the issue for some reason.
I see no real downside of nerfing both units. Since they are not used much on pro level, pro level balance wont be affected.
The only thing strong Swarm Host and strong Ravens encourages is turtle mech. If both units are nerfed aggressive mech is boosted, especially since the LOTV economy nerfes turtle mech by default.
On February 17 2017 01:42 MockHamill wrote: Nerfing both Swarm Hosts and Ravens is something that is universally agreed upon by almost all mech players.
Unfortunately Blizzard does seem to ignore the issue for some reason.
I see no real downside of nerfing both units. Since they are not used much on pro level, pro level balance wont be affected.
The only thing strong Swarm Host and strong Ravens encourages is turtle mech. If both units are nerfed aggressive mech is boosted, especially since the LOTV economy nerfes turtle mech by default.
This is so much truth it hurts, community cries out for nerfs and/or real changes to theses units and they both get ridiculously buffed? Supped up auto turrets and PDD and tier 1.5 resource cost for Hosts?
I suggested so many little changes that would help the overall gameplay quality and balance of mech in general and mech vs zerg, but instead blizzard doesn't even mention mech in their updates.
Atleast they are buffing hydralisks and nerfing widow mines... two changes which will obviously make the game much better /s
On February 17 2017 01:42 MockHamill wrote: Nerfing both Swarm Hosts and Ravens is something that is universally agreed upon by almost all mech players.
Unfortunately Blizzard does seem to ignore the issue for some reason.
I see no real downside of nerfing both units. Since they are not used much on pro level, pro level balance wont be affected.
The only thing strong Swarm Host and strong Ravens encourages is turtle mech. If both units are nerfed aggressive mech is boosted, especially since the LOTV economy nerfes turtle mech by default.
This is so much truth it hurts, community cries out for nerfs and/or real changes to theses units and they both get ridiculously buffed? Supped up auto turrets and PDD and tier 1.5 resource cost for Hosts?
Lol...okay balance team
PDD never got buffed. Its duration got nerfed to 14 seconds (20 Blizzard seconds?), down from a few minutes, and nothing else was changed IIRC.
Auto-turret was a nerf/buff. It now only lasts a several seconds, down from a few minutes, but does more damage. Its a nerf against turtling, but seems like the consensus is that it wasn't enough. I personally think its a boring spell and warrants a replacement.
On February 17 2017 01:42 MockHamill wrote: Nerfing both Swarm Hosts and Ravens is something that is universally agreed upon by almost all mech players.
Unfortunately Blizzard does seem to ignore the issue for some reason.
I see no real downside of nerfing both units. Since they are not used much on pro level, pro level balance wont be affected.
The only thing strong Swarm Host and strong Ravens encourages is turtle mech. If both units are nerfed aggressive mech is boosted, especially since the LOTV economy nerfes turtle mech by default.
This is so much truth it hurts, community cries out for nerfs and/or real changes to theses units and they both get ridiculously buffed? Supped up auto turrets and PDD and tier 1.5 resource cost for Hosts?
Lol...okay balance team
PDD never got buffed. Its duration got nerfed to 14 seconds (20 Blizzard seconds?), down from a few minutes, and nothing else was changed IIRC.
Auto-turret was a nerf/buff. It now only lasts a several seconds, down from a few minutes, but does more damage. Its a nerf against turtling, but seems like the consensus is that it wasn't enough. I personally think its a boring spell and warrants a replacement.
I mean, any change was a nerf to turtling because with durable materials turrets lasted 3 fucking minutes, but still who ever thought giving 24 damage to the autoturrets and stupidly long leash range to ravens was a good idea?
The speed buff for the raven was a good change tho.
On February 17 2017 01:42 MockHamill wrote: Nerfing both Swarm Hosts and Ravens is something that is universally agreed upon by almost all mech players.
Unfortunately Blizzard does seem to ignore the issue for some reason.
I see no real downside of nerfing both units. Since they are not used much on pro level, pro level balance wont be affected.
The only thing strong Swarm Host and strong Ravens encourages is turtle mech. If both units are nerfed aggressive mech is boosted, especially since the LOTV economy nerfes turtle mech by default.
This is so much truth it hurts, community cries out for nerfs and/or real changes to theses units and they both get ridiculously buffed? Supped up auto turrets and PDD and tier 1.5 resource cost for Hosts?
Lol...okay balance team
PDD never got buffed. Its duration got nerfed to 14 seconds (20 Blizzard seconds?), down from a few minutes, and nothing else was changed IIRC.
Auto-turret was a nerf/buff. It now only lasts a several seconds, down from a few minutes, but does more damage. Its a nerf against turtling, but seems like the consensus is that it wasn't enough. I personally think its a boring spell and warrants a replacement.
IMHO auto-turret should be reverted to the pre patch 3.8 status
On February 17 2017 01:42 MockHamill wrote: Nerfing both Swarm Hosts and Ravens is something that is universally agreed upon by almost all mech players.
Unfortunately Blizzard does seem to ignore the issue for some reason.
I see no real downside of nerfing both units. Since they are not used much on pro level, pro level balance wont be affected.
The only thing strong Swarm Host and strong Ravens encourages is turtle mech. If both units are nerfed aggressive mech is boosted, especially since the LOTV economy nerfes turtle mech by default.
This is so much truth it hurts, community cries out for nerfs and/or real changes to theses units and they both get ridiculously buffed? Supped up auto turrets and PDD and tier 1.5 resource cost for Hosts?
Lol...okay balance team
PDD never got buffed. Its duration got nerfed to 14 seconds (20 Blizzard seconds?), down from a few minutes, and nothing else was changed IIRC.
Auto-turret was a nerf/buff. It now only lasts a several seconds, down from a few minutes, but does more damage. Its a nerf against turtling, but seems like the consensus is that it wasn't enough. I personally think its a boring spell and warrants a replacement.
IMHO auto-turret should be reverted to the pre patch 3.8 status
why not just remove PDD and balance seeker like parasitic bomb fungal or psistorm so its insta cast with no "charge-up" time
ravens are absolutely silly and everyone would prefer a redesign or substitution with the science vessel, the thing is they are actually really bad, the counter to ravens and all mech is neural with abduct, there was a time before zergs figured out they could make vipers where ravens were "op" because zergs were that bad, but at gm+ on EU zergs always knew like nerchio, slivko and firecake caught on in mid 2015
its only on NA that zergs thought ravens were unbeatable due to their extremely slow adaptation to making vipers, at the end of hots avilo/ruff/mario was being absolutely destroyed by every zerg they faced due to vipers, x5.pig, zergwave or stephano would simply go SH viper and the game would end and that was pre raven nerfs.
But gumiho innovation and mvp you say? well in korea they STILL dont make vipers because mech is so rarely experienced and when they do they make like ~4 and movecommand them not moving them away from the battle after exhausting their energy, hallmark of fresh or inexperienced viper users.
SO in conclusion you could give terran the viper and zerg the raven, and terran would be twice as op because vipers are atleast twice as good as ravens, hell simply the consume ability increases their utility by the amount of energy they gain, so ten times? twenty times? they get to be used mere seconds after each use and their abilities are instant and uncounterable, there is no "fizzling" or warning nuclear launch detected, only shazam youve been parabombed, and the parabombs stack.
On February 17 2017 04:54 hiroshOne wrote: Omg another topic with mech whiners. Guys, stop spamming this forum with "mech unviable" stuff. There are few already.
mech players are just bad in general thats all. 9 out of 10 mech players i meet on the ladder are terrible. same shit every time. 1 big hellbat or cyclone push which fails, then into turtle mode. but then once in a blue moon i meet a really good mech player who crushes me with agressive play and proves that mech is indeed viable. they do multiprong banshee harass, hellbat drops, hellion runbys on 3 locations at once. constantly. but of course thats too hard for 9/10 mech keyboard warriors so lets make 100 wine threads instead.
and this is the absolute truth. deny it all you want.
On February 17 2017 04:54 hiroshOne wrote: Omg another topic with mech whiners. Guys, stop spamming this forum with "mech unviable" stuff. There are few already.
I've never said that mech is not viable,I've said that SH and Ravens are being so buffed that MechvsZ and mechvsmech is going back to the turtle war of HotS.
On February 17 2017 05:21 evolsiefil wrote: mech players are just bad in general thats all. 9 out of 10 mech players i meet on the ladder are terrible. same shit every time. 1 big hellbat or cyclone push which fails, then into turtle mode. but then once in a blue moon i meet a really good mech player who crushes me with agressive play and proves that mech is indeed viable. they do multiprong banshee harass, hellbat drops, hellion runbys on 3 locations at once. constantly. but of course thats too hard for 9/10 mech keyboard warriors so lets make 100 wine threads instead.
and this is the absolute truth. deny it all you want.
My totally anecdotal evidence is 100% truth because the whole players base consists of me.
Only 3 months later or what not and people finally realizing how ridiculous swarmhosts are. Well, not completely true, most of us already know it's bullshit, we're just waiting from changes from blizzard.
Would be good if other meching Terrans would comment about it.
On February 17 2017 08:25 avilo wrote: Only 3 months later or what not and people finally realizing how ridiculous swarmhosts are. Well, not completely true, most of us already know it's bullshit, we're just waiting from changes from blizzard.
Would be good if other meching Terrans would comment about it.
Swarm Hosts are ridiculous against mech and useless against bio, once again the balance team and their, "It's either OP or it's garbage" approach to design and balance. Would be nice to have it be just decent against both for varieties sake.
The Raven is absolutely disgusting to watch and play against, that unit is at this point an abomination and either needs a total redesign or the balance team could just, I don't know, put the Science Vessel in and then balance it as time goes on?
Anyone who thinks the Raven and the Host are in a good spot are probably also a Skytoss sympathizer and should be banned on moral principle alone.
On February 17 2017 08:25 avilo wrote: Only 3 months later or what not and people finally realizing how ridiculous swarmhosts are. Well, not completely true, most of us already know it's bullshit, we're just waiting from changes from blizzard.
Would be good if other meching Terrans would comment about it.
I've seen a lot of post between US forums\reddit and TL,but Blizz hasn't ever mentioned the problem.I mean,Skytoss is an actual problem,but spending a word about SH\Raven wouldn't kill anyone
On February 17 2017 08:25 avilo wrote: Only 3 months later or what not and people finally realizing how ridiculous swarmhosts are. Well, not completely true, most of us already know it's bullshit, we're just waiting from changes from blizzard.
Would be good if other meching Terrans would comment about it.
Swarm Hosts are ridiculous against mech and useless against bio, once again the balance team and their, "It's either OP or it's garbage" approach to design and balance. Would be nice to have it be just decent against both for varieties sake.
The Raven is absolutely disgusting to watch and play against, that unit is at this point an abomination and either needs a total redesign or the balance team could just, I don't know, put the Science Vessel in and then balance it as time goes on?
Anyone who thinks the Raven and the Host are in a good spot are probably also a Skytoss sympathizer and should be banned on moral principle alone.
That's a harsh way to dismiss anyone with a differing opinion.
But I do think that SHs need a large rebalance/redesign, as does Auto-turret and Seeker missile. They're never going to replace the Raven with the Science Vessel though.
It's just confusing reading all this mech threads. First mechers complain about every single unit that counter siege tanks, then they come and say they don't want turtle mech.
Yeah, nerfing Raven and SH is good, but then you'll be whining about vipers once again.....
I think some people don't remember what SH were in HotS. Show me any 2 hours game with SH in LotV, or just a real SH vs raven game. Truth is SH are just a harass unit that doesn't scale well in late game and it's probably at the spot where Blizzard wants it if I understand correctly.
On February 17 2017 08:25 avilo wrote: Only 3 months later or what not and people finally realizing how ridiculous swarmhosts are. Well, not completely true, most of us already know it's bullshit, we're just waiting from changes from blizzard.
Would be good if other meching Terrans would comment about it.
Other mech terran's ? Well... who's left ?
No seriously, people already complained so much about this.
Most of the design issue's are super obvious as well, so i don't really get why blizzard isn't even mentioning anything mech related in their updates.
If they know about those issues, they should atleast tell us, that they are focussing on other things right now and that they will eventually take a look on it.
Why does Zerg need swarmhosts to counter mech. He has so much tools to counter it (infestor, drops, viper). Also the Raven is bad designed. It was cancer in hots and now they buff it again. The Raven is a support unit and should be not main part of the lategame army.
The game has the following Problems
Terran Bio is to strong when pro player use it
Tier 3 air units from Terran and Protoss are broken (skytoss is the worst thing i have ever seen in the game)
Its not fun to play agaisnt swarmhosts. This unit shopuld be redesigned
Blizzard should give everey race a solid ground unit that can deal with Tier 3 air units
Can someone list 1 interesting and fun interaction the current Swarm Hosts create? I can't think of any.
It's been said many times, both Ravens and Swarm Hosts create the kind of gameplay noone wants to see or play against, they're not used much in the pro scene either, so there's no issue there, but for some reason, Activision doesn't care about the playerbase, only what marketing dictates when it comes to presenting the game as the most 'l33t' esport.
On February 17 2017 19:28 ihatevideogames wrote: Can someone list 1 interesting and fun interaction the current Swarm Hosts create? I can't think of any.
It's been said many times, both Ravens and Swarm Hosts create the kind of gameplay noone wants to see or play against, they're not used much in the pro scene either, so there's no issue there, but for some reason, Activision doesn't care about the playerbase, only what marketing dictates when it comes to presenting the game as the most 'l33t' esport.
SH are actually fun! problem is people often try to make 12+ of them which is stupidly weak, except if the opponent is turtling hardcore. It's just a weak ass unit that can do some harass that can counter turtling but that can't be massed and not very relevant in late game Doesn't need a nerf imho.
againg, SH vs raven doesn't exist anymore, at least not like it did in HotS.
That said, there are still people massing ravens and this style has always been the most dumb and boring style of sc2, increase its supply cost could be a nice move imho.
On February 17 2017 17:48 AlphaAeffchen wrote: ... Blizzard should give everey race a solid ground unit that can deal with Tier 3 air units
terran : marines, mines and thors Protoss : stalkers, HT archons Zerg : they want to buff hydralisk...
I've tried many approaches to playing against SH. From building up a liberator count early on to burst them out of the sky, to thor heavy comps to shoot them down. I've even tried to play mech with a lot of mines to splash the locusts and push through waves. I've tried, on cactus valley (probably the most friendly anti SH map when you're meching because you can push a lot of places, it's not a "1 corridor map"), to build a cyclone heavy comp to try and attack at different places at once and abuse the cooldown of swarmhosts (they can't defend well multi proned agressions).
But the only thing that really works is litterally slamming a tech lab on your first starport and continuously build ravens for the entire game. Any attempt to fight and be agressive against SH without a ball of ravens is pointless.
Sure you'll be doing more damage with your harass than against other comps, but it the end that doesn't matter; A small ball of roaches + mass SH is the only thing you need to repel any mech army that isn't raven-heavy. That means you basically force mech into turtle, while spending no ressources whatsoever. From there you'll be able to produce ridiculous amounts of BL, ultras or vipers and just kill off the mech player.
On February 17 2017 22:26 JackONeill wrote: [...] I've tried, on cactus valley (probably the most friendly anti SH map when you're meching because you can push a lot of places, it's not a "1 corridor map"), to build a cyclone heavy comp to try and attack at different places at once and abuse the immobility of swarmhosts. [...]
What? SH are everything but immobile, that's actually what makes it really hard to catch them.
On February 17 2017 22:26 JackONeill wrote: I've tried many approaches to playing against SH. From building up a liberator count early on to burst them out of the sky, to thor heavy comps to shoot them down. I've even tried to play mech with a lot of mines to splash the locusts and push through waves. I've tried, on cactus valley (probably the most friendly anti SH map when you're meching because you can push a lot of places, it's not a "1 corridor map"), to build a cyclone heavy comp to try and attack at different places at once and abuse the immobility of swarmhosts.
But the only thing that really works is litterally slamming a tech lab on your first starport and continuously build ravens for the entire game. Any attempt to fight and be agressive against SH without a ball of ravens is pointless.
Sure you'll be doing more damage with your harass than against other comps, but it the end that doesn't matter; A small ball of roaches + mass SH is the only thing you need to repel any mech army that isn't raven-heavy. That means you basically force mech into turtle, while spending no ressources whatsoever. From there you'll be able to produce ridiculous amounts of BL, ultras or vipers and just kill off the mech player.
Hm the only thing I have got working to a limited degree is blueflame hellbats with a few medivacs. You can not really catch the Swarm Hosts if he keeps retreating but you can counterattack.
On February 17 2017 22:26 JackONeill wrote: [...] I've tried, on cactus valley (probably the most friendly anti SH map when you're meching because you can push a lot of places, it's not a "1 corridor map"), to build a cyclone heavy comp to try and attack at different places at once and abuse the immobility of swarmhosts. [...]
What? SH are everything but immobile, that's actually what makes it really hard to catch them.
By immobility i meant that SHs can't really defend aggressions because of the CD on the locusts. It makes for a very "immobile" defense.
Poor choice of words from my part i'll edit my post.
On February 17 2017 22:26 JackONeill wrote: I've tried many approaches to playing against SH. From building up a liberator count early on to burst them out of the sky, to thor heavy comps to shoot them down. I've even tried to play mech with a lot of mines to splash the locusts and push through waves. I've tried, on cactus valley (probably the most friendly anti SH map when you're meching because you can push a lot of places, it's not a "1 corridor map"), to build a cyclone heavy comp to try and attack at different places at once and abuse the immobility of swarmhosts.
But the only thing that really works is litterally slamming a tech lab on your first starport and continuously build ravens for the entire game. Any attempt to fight and be agressive against SH without a ball of ravens is pointless.
Sure you'll be doing more damage with your harass than against other comps, but it the end that doesn't matter; A small ball of roaches + mass SH is the only thing you need to repel any mech army that isn't raven-heavy. That means you basically force mech into turtle, while spending no ressources whatsoever. From there you'll be able to produce ridiculous amounts of BL, ultras or vipers and just kill off the mech player.
Hm the only thing I have got working to a limited degree is blueflame hellbats with a few medivacs. You can not really catch the Swarm Hosts if he keeps retreating but you can counterattack.
Yeah but to have the necessary amount of hellbats, that means you can't really harass with hellion runby. Once again, SHs force the mech player to be very passive.
On February 17 2017 19:28 ihatevideogames wrote: Can someone list 1 interesting and fun interaction the current Swarm Hosts create? I can't think of any. .