I mean there is the potential to create a useful ability for the unit, but it has to be good enough so you rather build reapers which cost gas over more marines/medivacs. I don't see it.
Community Feedback Update 23 February
Forum Index > SC2 General |
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
I mean there is the potential to create a useful ability for the unit, but it has to be good enough so you rather build reapers which cost gas over more marines/medivacs. I don't see it. | ||
LSN
Germany696 Posts
The issue about SC2 is not if at some point at the end of a match the winrates are 50/50. It is about all little details that you meet on the way there. It is about if the game is fun to play and which mechanics take away the fun, not if that mechanic helps to create artificial balance in matchups and metagames with other absolute non fun game mechanics. | ||
JimmyJRaynor
Canada15499 Posts
On February 27 2017 23:42 The_Red_Viper wrote: Nathanias seems fairly unbiased, i like these videos quite a bit. I also agree that we should just be content with the reaper being a scouting unit initially. As i said before, i don't think you can change that role unless you completely change the game. (because the reaper WOULD be good in the midgame if medivacs didn't exist and the game was designed in a way the cliff jumping would be more impactful, right now it's only good early game) I mean there is the potential to create a useful ability for the unit, but it has to be good enough so you rather build reapers which cost gas over more marines/medivacs. I don't see it. Re: Reaper. can't they just play with "rate of fire", "how far it shoots" , "health/light/armour/psionic", "armour level" and other basic stats to create a role for the Reaper so that it can go back to the WoL Reaper; As you've already noted the Reaper's behaviour is so convoluted.. its just so gimmicky... the current Reaper belongs in the ultra-gimmicky super-stupid-on-purpose Red Alert Franchise. it does not belong in an SC franchise or any other serious C&C franchise. | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
The truth is that there is no reason to stop building marines/marauders/medivacs and focus on reapers. | ||
ejozl
Denmark3128 Posts
| ||
Charoisaur
Germany15566 Posts
Seems like the most elegant solution to the reaper problematic (next to removing the grenade completely). It doesn't really affect standard reaper openers since the damage of a single grenade is negliglibe anyway - but it massively nerfs mass reaper builds. | ||
egrimm
Poland1196 Posts
On February 28 2017 18:55 ejozl wrote: The way I want to go about it is to give it a use in the late game instead of the mid game. So by removing the Combat Healing, the unit obviously needs some kind of early game compensation and my choice would be to up it's health by 10 points or so. It should still help the Zerg player early game, since every point of damage you do to the Reaper is permanent until Medivacs come out. The unit loses a lot of traction by then, since Medivac Boost drops is a lot stronger than cliff jumping and also Marines are just more cost efficient. But then there should be a late game upgrade which ups the Grenades damage towards structures marginally. So you can run around finishing off Hatcheries, Pylons and Protoss Tech with a pack of Reapers. Although removal of combat healing might help in TvZ at the smae time it is quite needed in TvP to allow reaper to scout protoss base more than once. Generally speaking reaper has a lot of small, strange mechanics which affects to some extent all matchups however some of them has much bigger impact in one matchup some in other which makes reaper hard to balance. Combat healing is needed to scout in TvP however it makes reaper rushes in TvZ stronger and makes this strategies much easier to snowball. Granades dealing dmg has little impact in TvP but is crucial in TvZ for reaper openers. Granades knockback effect is needed in TvP so reaper can easier manouver in Protoss base and avoid being sniped by adepts/stalkers but at the same time in TvZ allows to heavily slow down Zerg counter all-in with roaches/Ravagers vs reaper rushes to a point were people wonder if it is not too much. and there is cliff jump which is crucial for current reaper iteration so it has any use at all and at the same time makes reaper rushes really hard to hold and makes mapmaking much harder (a lot of contraints). Reaper is really strange, gimmicky and hard to balance unit which performs small but crucial role and at the same time is a part of some really questionable early game strategies. | ||
egrimm
Poland1196 Posts
On February 27 2017 13:33 JimmyJRaynor wrote: looking at the Poll results we have a very divided community. Nathanias published this little talk about the Community Update yesterday. I recommend watching it. Lets add Nathanias's comments on the Reaper to The_Red_Vipers comments on the Reaper. please remove the grenade and the Health Regeneration from the Reaper. Bring back the WoL Reaper. Alter its stats so its useful early game and an effective scouting unit. IF you can find a way to alter its stats to be useful in early game and occasionally has a mid-game role then even better. The unit is so gimmicky right now, so hard to control and learn. On top of that much better players like Nathanias have really well thought out criticisms of the unit. Just blow it up and start with the WoL Reaper. My 50-100 APM Silver//Gold friends think the Reaper and many other aspects of LotV is too complicated. I played 2v2s for 1/2 the day Sunday. it was all in WoL because all my clan mates are WoL only players. They own every game in the trilogy and they stick to WoL for multiplayer. Really good video - I especially agree with Nathanis about everything he said concerning Reapers and WMs. Well presented thought process. | ||
[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
| ||
[PkF] Wire
France24184 Posts
On February 27 2017 13:33 JimmyJRaynor wrote: looking at the Poll results we have a very divided community. I think it mostly means the proposed changes are unconvincing at best. When a change that was really called for and sensible gets made it usually gets much higher "good" percentages. | ||
jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
the current Reaper belongs in the ultra-gimmicky super-stupid-on-purpose Red Alert Franchise. it does not belong in an SC franchise or any other serious C&C franchise. This, I don't know how many times the community can clamor for real and elegant Reaper changes at this point without getting results. Why not.. 1. Above poster already said remove damage entirely so it provides the knock back but nerfs mass reaper 2. Nerf regen at the very least, mass Reaper wouldn't be nearly as bad if you could actually kill them. 3. Go back to WOL Reapers entirely They made corruptors great again! I like this buff, helping zerg to fight the opponent's air superiority. Theres no question that Corruptors sucked and needed buffs, but Starcraft at this point is turning into an air superiority battle and it's not good for the game. Air armies are already so powerful and pretty much necessitate nerfs. Skyzerg was broken in WoL and it necessitated huge nerfs and the literal castration of the Infestor. Skyterran became popular but it was cancer and now Liberators are nerfed for it. Skytoss is popular but it's cancer and now Blizzard is buffing things around it so they can fix it without nerfs. See what I'm saying? Having super strong air units just isn't good for SC2, the battles aren't interesting because of the way collision works, micro means little, it's more about who has the upfront better firepower. | ||
PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
| ||
pvsnp
7676 Posts
How the tournament progresses is anybody's guess of course, but in terms of representation (at the moment) it seems that Protoss is doing just fine and in no need of any help. Same for Terran. It's Zerg that's suffering, and pretty exclusively in ZvP. Though top Korean Zergs like ByuL and soO aren't there, and of course Terran winrates are always misleadingly high at global events because the best Korean Terrans are peerless among foreigners. | ||
Fatam
1986 Posts
| ||
washikie
United States752 Posts
| ||
washikie
United States752 Posts
On February 28 2017 19:05 Charoisaur wrote: An interesting suggestion I've seen is removing the damage from grenades so they just knock back units without damaging them. Seems like the most elegant solution to the reaper problematic (next to removing the grenade completely). It doesn't really affect standard reaper openers since the damage of a single grenade is negliglibe anyway - but it massively nerfs mass reaper builds. I think this would be a much better place to start than removing grenade completely, allows reaper to keep the positional utility of grenade which is crucial for their early game scouting role while realy nerfing allin reaper play. | ||
Fatam
1986 Posts
Removes the cheesy knockback and does no damage; instead it blinds the units caught in the radius for a couple seconds. Sort of like blinding cloud but less duration and smaller radius (and it's not an effect on the ground - it only affects the units that were there when it went off). This would have some use in early game fights but also it would make the reaper relevant later in the game. | ||
eviltomahawk
United States11132 Posts
Balance Update Thanks to everyone who provided feedback on the proposed Reaper changes from last week’s update. After reading over your feedback we are increasing the cooldown of the KD8 Charge from 7 to 14 seconds to reduce the offensive capability of Reaper-heavy openers, while still allowing the unit to function as a scout in smaller numbers. At the moment, we are planning for this change to go live in an upcoming patch with the Widow Mine, Hydralisk, and Corruptor changes that have been on the balance test map. We'd like to implement this soon so that players have time to prepare and adjust to the new units before other major tournaments commence. We welcome your thoughts and feedback. https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20753505814 | ||
kajtarp
Hungary418 Posts
| ||
bulya
Israel386 Posts
Byun used it several times yesterday (I think 4), and lost only 1 of those games, so may be some nerf was necessary, but I don't consider it to be so OP. Players like Nerchio which go for roaches anyway deflect it quite easily. | ||
| ||