Community Feedback Update- April 20
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xtorn
4060 Posts
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Zrana1
Netherlands45 Posts
On April 24 2017 18:41 xtorn wrote: Rewind feature is excellent That's true! This feature needs more love! I think it will be great | ||
wiNgiAN
17 Posts
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Ransomstarcraft
75 Posts
The Thor is very expensive at 300/200 compared to its utility, and takes 43 seconds of a factory with a tech lab on it. This damage point issue is the main problem with Thors in TvZ as well. By the time an enemy is within range and the Thor draws a bead, the unit is probably either already dead or so near death that the powerful shot of the Thor is overkill. I think a more warranted "experimental" test would be for Thors to be able to simultaneously attack ground and air rather than the current test. I don't think the current test will make much difference. | ||
PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
Also things that can be done to improve the flow of the match ups 1) Redesign Oracles with high range and lower damage to light units so it functions more like the Banshee would, not being hard countered by static defense but a game ender without it, middle grounds are best. - Make Oracle detect innately to remove the need for Robo - Redesign Revelation to function like parasite from Brood War - Nerf Stasis field area and duration but reduce the mana cost proportionally, make it function like spider mines. 2) Nerf Blinding Cloud vs stationary units (Siege Tanks) but make them better vs. units that can be micro'd out of the cloud by changing the Blind to a flat range reduction of 5, this way Siege Tanks will have a much diminished but not hard countered range of 8 and things like Marines will be brought down to 1. Also make it so that units that leave the Cloud will be blinded temporarily and retain the -5 range, this effect dissipates after 1.5 seconds. 3) Remove the Swarm Host from the game completely, I'm a life time Zerg player and I'm here to tell you, that unit is bad from the ground up, design wise, balance wise, please remove it from the game and stop balancing the game around shitty free units, nobody likes to watch them, nobody likes to play against them, come on. 4) Redesign the Sentry to function more as a offensive based, mobile Protoss medic, to bolster Gateway armies throughout the game. - Remove FF and replace it with Shield Battery, Ravagers being in the game makes FF a dumb binary reaction in LOTV, the Sentry deserves something better. (ex. Shield Battery replenishes 35 shield immediately and gives 35 over 8 seconds) - Give Sentry innate 1 armor - Buff Sentry laser beam to actually do SOME damage, not alot, but more then it does now. 5) Buff Stalker DPS vs. light so they don't look so hopelessly pathetic vs. post mid game M/M/M armies 6) Remove invulnerable Nydus and replace it with a new Nydus worm that is can be killed, is cheaper, can only transport 16 units, and can be cancelled for a 50% resource refund 7) Remove Psionic Transfer from Adepts, give them increased movement speed, Resonating Glaives now 200/200 and gives attack speed bonus and a +2 vs. light units These are just things off the top of my head, like I said I'm a Zerg player and Protoss is just terrible in LOTV, not balance wise but design wise they are a complete and total mess. | ||
gab12
Poland147 Posts
-thor change isnt really that relevant, u dont really see it in use and the high impact payload mode had more damage vs tempest etc. -void ray slow prismatic alligment is actually nice indierct nerf to the unit. -Faster zealot charge is really cool idea, it enables for earlier attacks/skirmishes with zealots -Tempest buff feels liek its not really needed. -raven auto turret nerf is good enaugh that single turret cant shoot so any workers in seconds so its really cool. --------------------------- And here i would like to post some of my suggestions to the game: I think mech could use a bit mroe help vs air specially in tvp where if you want to go mech and protoss opponent opens phoenix u cant apply much pressure, and for sure you are gonna find urself fighting vs carriers. So i would like to adress Cyclone: add normal anti air attack like 18 damage per shot with 7 range and not really fast attack speed OR ( this option i write nearly under all community updates) change lock on so that its time when cyclone shoots is changed from 14 seconds to 7 seconds , so cyclones damage is actually visiblie ( it would be 16 damage instead dof 8 per shot) . Also adept is still in need to be nerfed, its a unit that just has option to cut distance between main protoss army and terran siege tank lines, its easy to break terran mid game mech push with just shade on top of tanks and presplit then engage with main army. Also really cool suggestion is to make all upgreads on armory mixed again , and make vikings available on factory level but just in mech form and lets say u need starport to transform. Then we have warp prism , its cool unit, has insane micro potential, but i would give it slow warpin so its not nearly insta gg with warp in to main of T/Z while both players are nearly maxed out. Protoss zealots should be a bit more beefy or buff them in some funky way like increase their attack speed.Also zerg: Swarm host needs a nerf badly, at first movement speed is to fast, and then we have its interaction with mech which is terrible as for now when Zerg gets swarm host meching terran has to instantly switch from factory to all starports.I m not really sure how to change swarm hosts... maby lower the dps of locust at start and increase cost of the unit.I think viper blinding cloud duration time could use a nerf. ( By the way im master protoss player ^^ ) I would really like to hear your opinion on my thoughts | ||
jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
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Turb0Sw4g
74 Posts
On April 27 2017 03:48 Ransomstarcraft wrote: The damage point of Thors need to be lowered, both for air attack and ground attack, to make them more useful. (Damage point refers to the time between when a unit can attack another unit and when that attack actually begins.) For reference, see game 3 of Maru vs. Super in the GSL today (April 26). He makes them early and they have some use, then they get crushed by equal numbers of immortals (which are easier to produce and cost less). The Thor is very expensive at 300/200 compared to its utility, and takes 43 seconds of a factory with a tech lab on it. This damage point issue is the main problem with Thors in TvZ as well. By the time an enemy is within range and the Thor draws a bead, the unit is probably either already dead or so near death that the powerful shot of the Thor is overkill. I think a more warranted "experimental" test would be for Thors to be able to simultaneously attack ground and air rather than the current test. I don't think the current test will make much difference. Not sure about the damage point change, but the Thor has zero micro potential. That's for sure. On April 27 2017 04:54 jpg06051992 wrote: ^ Brilliant post about the Thor from Ransom and I also agree with Pino, the Thor sucks, it needs an overhaul, might as well just get it out of the way with the new balance team. Also things that can be done to improve the flow of the match ups 1) Redesign Oracles with high range and lower damage to light units so it functions more like the Banshee would, not being hard countered by static defense but a game ender without it, middle grounds are best. - Make Oracle detect innately to remove the need for Robo - Redesign Revelation to function like parasite from Brood War - Nerf Stasis field area and duration but reduce the mana cost proportionally, make it function like spider mines. 2) Nerf Blinding Cloud vs stationary units (Siege Tanks) but make them better vs. units that can be micro'd out of the cloud by changing the Blind to a flat range reduction of 5, this way Siege Tanks will have a much diminished but not hard countered range of 8 and things like Marines will be brought down to 1. Also make it so that units that leave the Cloud will be blinded temporarily and retain the -5 range, this effect dissipates after 1.5 seconds. 3) Remove the Swarm Host from the game completely, I'm a life time Zerg player and I'm here to tell you, that unit is bad from the ground up, design wise, balance wise, please remove it from the game and stop balancing the game around shitty free units, nobody likes to watch them, nobody likes to play against them, come on. 4) Redesign the Sentry to function more as a offensive based, mobile Protoss medic, to bolster Gateway armies throughout the game. - Remove FF and replace it with Shield Battery, Ravagers being in the game makes FF a dumb binary reaction in LOTV, the Sentry deserves something better. (ex. Shield Battery replenishes 35 shield immediately and gives 35 over 8 seconds) - Give Sentry innate 1 armor - Buff Sentry laser beam to actually do SOME damage, not alot, but more then it does now. 5) Buff Stalker DPS vs. light so they don't look so hopelessly pathetic vs. post mid game M/M/M armies 6) Remove invulnerable Nydus and replace it with a new Nydus worm that is can be killed, is cheaper, can only transport 16 units, and can be cancelled for a 50% resource refund 7) Remove Psionic Transfer from Adepts, give them increased movement speed, Resonating Glaives now 200/200 and gives attack speed bonus and a +2 vs. light units These are just things off the top of my head, like I said I'm a Zerg player and Protoss is just terrible in LOTV, not balance wise but design wise they are a complete and total mess. Agree with this. Especially the combination of removing FF and making Stasis more spammable. Another good Blinding Cloud change might be to introduce a miss chance for all enemy units inside the cloud. Could be used offensively as well as defensively with that change. On April 27 2017 05:53 jpg06051992 wrote: ^ the best way to change the Swarm Host is to remove it from the game, it's impossible to balance a free unit spawning unit, it's either imbalanced weak or strong, it currently fills no real role in the Zerg arsenal besides being OP vs. Mech and crap vs. almost everything else outside of wonky GSL level Swarm Host plays that also looks OP when pulled off well. Actually removing all free units and redesigning their host units would be great too. | ||
baabaa
Canada29 Posts
In case this is news to you Blizzard, sometimes zerg units ACTUALLY NEED TO DO SOMETHING TO PREVENT OTHER RACES FROM WINNING. If you are actually , really, making a comment like this, after you have ALREADY NERFED Swarmhosts more or less out of the game, this is DEFINITELY the nail in the coffin, I'm never playing LOTV again. Have you, ever, Blizzard, happened to hear any comments about: * terran reapers inhibiting the entire zerg early game, resulting in terrans at high levels basically auto-making reapers, * terran hellbat drops just ending games, period. * terran liberators inhibiting the ability of zerg and protoss to actually collect any resources... * terran widow mines inhibiting zerg lings and banelings from having a chance of surviving to even connect any damage to a terran army? WELL BLIZZARD I guess you have to: * nerf widow mines into the ground, nerf reapers into the ground, nerf liberators into the ground, as well as a bunch of other units that INHIBIT terran opponents from having a reasonable chance to win the game. this is why you have lost so many players for this game. despite the "supposed" commitment to discussing balance changes with the community, still have absolutely no intention of dealing with feedback equitably. there is still a terran unit that has SPLASH damage, ATTACKS AIR, Is CLOAKED, is AUTO ATTACK, is basically AUTOMATICALLY COST EFFECTIVE, and it costs the same as.... let's see now.... ONE ROACH, which * has NO SPLASH DAMAGE, does NOT attack air, does NOT AUTO ATTACK, requires UPGRADES to burrow. Broken, broken game. And what did you do to zerg's best way of countering widow mines? you nerfed them into the ground, Blizzard. THANK YOU for your kind inattention to game balance. User was warned for this post | ||
Meepman
Canada610 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Most pros already have known about swarmhost abuse since the patch was out, or found out shortly after, and it would never be worth it for them to even attempt mech knowing 1 unit called the swarmhost will essentially hard counter the entire play style with little to no cost and effort. We definitely could see a lot of pro mech play if they do address swarmhosts though. I hope the raven auto-turret nerf is also enough to prevent the mass raven spam in both lategame TvT and TvZ. For the people that continually comment over the years you don't want "turtle mech," you have to realize turtling is always going to be possible with all 3 races and that in itself is not a bad thing! It's just a play style choice players have. What is bad is when the "turtle style" involves resourceless units that aren't trading against the opponent. The best example i can give of a HEALTHY turtle style is how i play ZvT/ZvZ/ZvP with mass lurker, viper, spores, and other people probably do this now too. This is a HEALTHY turtle style because lurkers are not spawning a free unit from 3 screens away. There are ways to break lurkers and attack into them, but lurkers are also strong enough that they can hold positions better than siege tanks can. An UNHEALTHY turtle style would be sitting afk into mass ravens or swarmhosts or tempest/carrier/archon. That last statement always perplexes people because their immediate reaction is "BUT AVILO YOU DO THAT IDIOTIC STYLE EVERY TIME YOU PLAY!" Well, yes, because as a streamer and someone that opts to go mech every game, there is an imba unit called the swarmhost that forces the game to be nothing other than free units or lose the game to locusts. The thor changes blizzard are testing, along with hopefully a swarmhost fix soon...these will lead to AGGRESSIVE MECH play where you can confidently trade units versus your opponent, instead of going 5-10 factories and knowing 100% you now autolose the game because of locusts/vipers unless you turtle to 50 ravens. Anyways, let's hope they do something soon about swarmhosts. Blizzard really needs to get on the ball with balance changes. | ||
hiroshOne
Poland423 Posts
Avilo. When will you realize that SH play does counter only your style. Many Terrans being more active with their units (building mass turrets and PF's does not count) have no problem with SH. Without SH Mech would be autowin for Terran. Now, I know that this is your real goal, but i really hope that some day you will regain common sense. I watch your stream from time to time, and what i noticed is that You whine so much about Zerg, but still You win almost every ZvT with your cancer mech. Now, IF Zerg manages to win you always rage about him being a hacker or stream cheater. So the only one and logical explanation is that only with hacking or stream cheating Zerg can win vs mech. Wouldn't you agree? :-) | ||
wiNgiAN
17 Posts
pvz is a bit different, at least protoss have 3 effective openings vs zerg, the best one is skytoss i guess, because they dont have to deal with banelings splash dmg like ground units does, still a bit favored zerg match up.. but not as favored as terran is tvp, im pretty sure if adepts all in werent strong, protoss could have like a 40% winrate vs the other races. last thoughts about balance, sentrys and stalkers should be a bit strong, same for zealots, theyre supposed to be the core unit for protoss, not adepts, so youre welcome if you nerf adepts again (theyre not really strong but w/e) but give zealots some usefull thing, colossus should have a buff too, mbe their thermal lance being quickier for research, or 150/150, because theyre so far for being a good robotics unit, give tempest a buff, so pvp is not a stupid skytoss vs skytoss a+click carriers/vr vs carriers/vr, tempest should counter carrier or vr somehow, NERF disruptors, a lower nova aoe explosion dmg or speed, NERF swarmhost (theyre needed vs mech i guess, but theyre very strong, a lot of dmg from FREE locust FailFish) make ravagers biological-armored, NERF a bit the hydra-bane-ling style, zerg can deal with all the protoss ground tier with that composition almost the entire game. NERF liberators-tanks-wm(splash range) and the bc's teleport make it not usable if bc got dmg 2 seconds before or something, so it cant be abuse on turtle style. | ||
Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On April 27 2017 08:53 avilo wrote: Guys, the reason pro Terrans don't opt for or bother playing mech other than as a "SURPRISE, IM PLAYING THE BAD STRAT!" is because they rely on tournament success for their income. Most pros already have known about swarmhost abuse since the patch was out, or found out shortly after, and it would never be worth it for them to even attempt mech knowing 1 unit called the swarmhost will essentially hard counter the entire play style with little to no cost and effort. We definitely could see a lot of pro mech play if they do address swarmhosts though. I hope the raven auto-turret nerf is also enough to prevent the mass raven spam in both lategame TvT and TvZ. For the people that continually comment over the years you don't want "turtle mech," you have to realize turtling is always going to be possible with all 3 races and that in itself is not a bad thing! It's just a play style choice players have. What is bad is when the "turtle style" involves resourceless units that aren't trading against the opponent. The best example i can give of a HEALTHY turtle style is how i play ZvT/ZvZ/ZvP with mass lurker, viper, spores, and other people probably do this now too. This is a HEALTHY turtle style because lurkers are not spawning a free unit from 3 screens away. There are ways to break lurkers and attack into them, but lurkers are also strong enough that they can hold positions better than siege tanks can. An UNHEALTHY turtle style would be sitting afk into mass ravens or swarmhosts or tempest/carrier/archon. That last statement always perplexes people because their immediate reaction is "BUT AVILO YOU DO THAT IDIOTIC STYLE EVERY TIME YOU PLAY!" Well, yes, because as a streamer and someone that opts to go mech every game, there is an imba unit called the swarmhost that forces the game to be nothing other than free units or lose the game to locusts. The thor changes blizzard are testing, along with hopefully a swarmhost fix soon...these will lead to AGGRESSIVE MECH play where you can confidently trade units versus your opponent, instead of going 5-10 factories and knowing 100% you now autolose the game because of locusts/vipers unless you turtle to 50 ravens. Anyways, let's hope they do something soon about swarmhosts. Blizzard really needs to get on the ball with balance changes. Pig just releases a guide here on how dark shutdown mech. And it's really funny how the best Zerg of the world playing the best mech player of the world Gumiho, don't build any SH... The most probable is gumiho has figured how to play vs SH (pushing when the SH are in cooldown for example), so Dark don't use them as it's not that strong. When we watch your stream you're always ready to claim balance problem, the other cheating, but never : "i could have played differently and i can have won". There is better mech players that you, and you play far inferior players than Dark and co. Still you have always claimed "mech not viable", even before they introduce SH, while you have always played mech, it's kind of funny. | ||
plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On April 27 2017 16:23 Tyrhanius wrote: Pig just releases a guide here on how dark shutdown mech. And it's really funny how the best Zerg of the world playing the best mech player of the world Gumiho, don't build any SH... The most probable is gumiho has figured how to play vs SH (pushing when the SH are in cooldown for example), so Dark don't use them as it's not that strong. When we watch your stream you're always ready to claim balance problem, the other cheating, but never : "i could have played differently and i can have won". There is better mech players that you, and you play far inferior players than Dark and co. Still you have always claimed "mech not viable", even before they introduce SH, while you have always played mech, it's kind of funny. You can do mental gymnastics all day, but the straightforward evidence of Mech being able to beat SH should come from games where mech is used successfully versus swarmhosts; and not games where non-swarmhost compositions were used successfully versus mech. If anything, Dark vs. Gumiho game is evidence that Zergs don't need to build swarmhosts to win versus mech. And you've weakened some posters' position that Zergs need swarmhosts to beat mech. For example: On April 27 2017 15:37 hiroshOne wrote: Autoturret nerf was really not enough. It's still massable. Still it's massive free damage- someone calculated here that it's really a buff. It lasts longer with smaller damage- so denial on mineral lines (as we now see in ZvT Raven harras) will be longer. This is not enough- it still will be cancerous to play against mass ravens. Avilo. When will you realize that SH play does counter only your style. Many Terrans being more active with their units (building mass turrets and PF's does not count) have no problem with SH. Without SH Mech would be autowin for Terran. Now, I know that this is your real goal, but i really hope that some day you will regain common sense. I watch your stream from time to time, and what i noticed is that You whine so much about Zerg, but still You win almost every ZvT with your cancer mech. Now, IF Zerg manages to win you always rage about him being a hacker or stream cheater. So the only one and logical explanation is that only with hacking or stream cheating Zerg can win vs mech. Wouldn't you agree? :-) | ||
NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
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c0sm0naut
United States1228 Posts
On April 29 2017 12:53 NKexquisite wrote: It's nice to see that after 3 iterations of the game and countless patches Blizzard still has yet to find a way to make the Thor effective vs anything but at least they are still trying... its almost as if slow moving hero units replacing the goliath was a bad idea | ||
jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On April 27 2017 08:53 avilo wrote: Guys, the reason pro Terrans don't opt for or bother playing mech other than as a "SURPRISE, IM PLAYING THE BAD STRAT!" is because they rely on tournament success for their income. Most pros already have known about swarmhost abuse since the patch was out, or found out shortly after, and it would never be worth it for them to even attempt mech knowing 1 unit called the swarmhost will essentially hard counter the entire play style with little to no cost and effort. We definitely could see a lot of pro mech play if they do address swarmhosts though. I hope the raven auto-turret nerf is also enough to prevent the mass raven spam in both lategame TvT and TvZ. For the people that continually comment over the years you don't want "turtle mech," you have to realize turtling is always going to be possible with all 3 races and that in itself is not a bad thing! It's just a play style choice players have. What is bad is when the "turtle style" involves resourceless units that aren't trading against the opponent. The best example i can give of a HEALTHY turtle style is how i play ZvT/ZvZ/ZvP with mass lurker, viper, spores, and other people probably do this now too. This is a HEALTHY turtle style because lurkers are not spawning a free unit from 3 screens away. There are ways to break lurkers and attack into them, but lurkers are also strong enough that they can hold positions better than siege tanks can. An UNHEALTHY turtle style would be sitting afk into mass ravens or swarmhosts or tempest/carrier/archon. That last statement always perplexes people because their immediate reaction is "BUT AVILO YOU DO THAT IDIOTIC STYLE EVERY TIME YOU PLAY!" Well, yes, because as a streamer and someone that opts to go mech every game, there is an imba unit called the swarmhost that forces the game to be nothing other than free units or lose the game to locusts. The thor changes blizzard are testing, along with hopefully a swarmhost fix soon...these will lead to AGGRESSIVE MECH play where you can confidently trade units versus your opponent, instead of going 5-10 factories and knowing 100% you now autolose the game because of locusts/vipers unless you turtle to 50 ravens. Anyways, let's hope they do something soon about swarmhosts. Blizzard really needs to get on the ball with balance changes. Tempest/Carrier/Archon doesn't involve free units, Mass Ravens kind of does but there's still energy management. Still don't see how either are unhealthy by your definition. | ||
Ransomstarcraft
75 Posts
A. "A more harass heavy mech" 1. A speed increase to Hellions would make their stick and move a more viable option. LOTV's economy increase has meant that hellions are much less useful in the past, as any standard army clump wards them off. The reaper bomb was added specifically because of this reason, while the hellion had no change. 2. Lowering the damage point (the time between when a unit can attack and when it actually does attack) of Hellions would mean that they can do more damage to mineral lines when they dive in, even for a kamikaze style attack. 3. A dps increase to the air damage of Cyclones would mean mech can get out on the map without danger of losing all the hellions and cyclones for next to nothing. Any one of these increases would make speed Banshees more powerful, since the main issue with them right now is an opponent who is unbothered by harass will have so much army and static defense strength that no amount of banshees will do much good or something like 4-6 infestors being out makes them a foolish investment. B. "A more turtle-heavy mech" 1. This is where tweaking the Thor will drive mech. The Thor is just about the turtle-eyest unit in the game with its slow movement and slow attack speed. The design of the Thor and the Seige Tank are the two main factors that make mech require turtle play. I would personally be more in favor of (A), give mech the option of simple map control and harass options rather than the reliance on the turtle style. | ||
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