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The thread title is the name of the extension mod Channel name: Bareleon sc2 mod
Premise:
I thought WoL was a great template for sc2 with some obvious problems. Some problems WoL and Hots (and some from lotv) had were: mech wasn't viable, Collo, Oracles, Photon Overcharge, Swarm hosts, no lurkers, widow mines, too many units moved too fast, lack of good aoe on the ground for terran for light units, lack of a solid gateway unit for toss, tempests, 10 mineral interceptors, and other annoying/frustrating things
This mod blends WoL and lotv instead of hots and lotv. I used the lotv extension mod so I dont know how to make it so resources and worker count is also WoL but I think it will be cool to see how a WoL/lotv blend will work here.
I did do some buffs where needed. Let's see what SC2 could have been if all the above things weren't in the game but kept some changes from lotv. Read below for the changes. I will be in the lobby chat for it a lot tonight if anyone wants to play with me. Gold toss and zerg and silver as terran. I hope we can get some high level players to play it.
Terran:
-Banshee: Removed the move speed upgrade. -Siege Tank: Siege mode back as an upgrade. Cost reduced from 150/150 to 125/125 and reduced research time by 10 seconds. -Marauder: Reverted back to WoL and hots -Widowmine: Removed -Medivac: speed boost upgrade removed and increased base movement speed from 2.5 to 2.85. -Liberator: Removed -Battlecrusier Tactical Jump removed -Reaper: Reduced movement speed and removed their ability.
Protoss:
-Phoenix: Anion Pulse Crystals: Increases their attack range by 1 -Oracle: Removed pulsar beam and revelation -Mothership core: Removed -Tempest: Removed -Colossus: Slightly reduced attack speed -Carrier: Interceptor cost 25 minerals -Adept: Removed their shade. -Sentry: FF time decreased from 11 to 7 sec and in editor numbers it is 15 to 11 sec
Zerg:
-Queen: Reduce ground attack range by 1 (back to 5) and air attack range by 1 (back to 7). -Ravager: Removed -Swarm Host: Removed -Muta: Revert movement speed buff -Viper: Abduct removed
Let me know what you think after you played it.
This is not my big mod I've been working on btw.
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Mod sounds very fun.
Tank Siege via upgrade is so primitive though. What overly powerful advantages of siege tank are you trying to avoid?
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On June 03 2017 08:20 WeddingEpisode wrote: Mod sounds very fun.
Tank Siege via upgrade is so primitive though. What overly powerful advantages of siege tank are you trying to avoid?
Current LotV siege tank openers kills Protosses who open with blink. This change might slightly nerf fast tank pushes in PvT
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This is not my big mod I've been working on btw. Then what is the point of this right now? I mean you remove a lot, etc. But i don't see a lot of interesting redesigns or anything here. It's basically just a "what if" ?
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With the removal of ravagers and keeping the buffed damage and HP of the tank, I dont want a siege timing to be OP vs zerg. Less of an issue vs protoss but with the buffed tank it could make the 1-1-1 timing quite strong.
But I had to reduce the cost and research time of siege mode so a zerg or protoss timing attack wouldnt be gg so fast.
Also another reason I brought it back was cause of nostalgia lol.
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Yeah, if there would be a ladder. i would probably pick the game up again with these changes. Swap the Thor for Goliaths and it would be perfect.
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On June 03 2017 08:43 The_Red_Viper wrote: Then what is the point of this right now? I mean you remove a lot, etc. But i don't see a lot of interesting redesigns or anything here. It's basically just a "what if" ?
I dont think blizzard will ever make huge changes to the game like the mod I am working on (but in case by the off chance they do they will have some ideas :D) and I think with changes to the current game it can make the game really fun to play while not making it boring to watch.
I know not everyone thinks the current game we have right now is bad or annoying or not fun or what ever, I just wanted to see if I can perfect the WoL template.
Less focus on worker harassment, more tactical base like WoL, with the interceptor cost back to 25, the tempest gone, the recently nerfed VR and the nerfed collo attack speed I hope we can prevent toss from playing like WoL and stalling to get that one perfect ball and a-move lol.
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Here is some insight into a lot of the changes:
WoL was more fun imo because less focus on worker harassment and less units moved so fast so it was more tactical base instead of "catch me if you can" game play. That's why I removed the banshee speed upgrade, reverted the muta speed buff, and removed pulsar beam and the medivac speed boost. Also all those things really made the game annoying to play.
Widowmines was another example of annoyance plus they seemed redundant to the tank and hellbat. Granted I may need to bring back the liberator if mutas become too much again in tvz but remove its atg mode. It was nice that blizzard at least tried some of these but in the end it made the game too annoying to play.
Ravagers and abduct both made mech play hard. But with ravagers removed I had to reduce the time forcefields stayed on the map for. Colossus was always boring to me and it encouraged stalling to get that one perfect ball. I reverted the interceptor cost nerf and with the removal of the tempest and the recently nerfed VR the hope is toss wont stall and get that one perfect sky ball. Plus tempests also made mech play hard.
With the queen ground attack range buff there were a lot of complaints that players cant harass zerg as easily and with slower air units the air attack range buff might have been too much.
With the marauder "buff" I think we can all agree watching those GM terran players (and lower level players like me) show off their micro skills with mmm is fun and I do think with the Adept, disrupters and lurkers we can try to revert the nerf they got
Revelation on the oracles made it too easy to spot lurkers and to spy on the opponent's army. I mean sure this means they will have tons of energy for stasis wards now but lets be real, they are rarely used as is :D
Anion Pulse Crystals had to reduce the bonus by 1 because muta play in zvp would be non-existent since I reverted their speed buff.
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Join channel Bareleon sc2 mod. I am on now.
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Funny. I think phoenix upgrade (5+2) should be removed and give phoenix the WOL 6 range.
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why is zerg the only race, that just got nerfs?
without ravager, sentry timings are again really powerfull. bills are the only thing, that zerg can do against FF. without them, you just can watch, how your army dies.. and ravagers were never a problem against mech. swarmhosts are the only problem, mech has atm against zerg. same with abduct.where is the problem with abduct? how do you wanna fight mass air armies without it?
to remove abilities/units from the game is just a cheap way out. its like "i dont have any idea how to balance them, so i removed them". how do you wanna break siegelines before broodlords without swarmhosts? as a zerg, you are forced to turtle to 4-5 base, play a 20min+ game and hope, that they dont kill your broods, or even your base, because broods are so fucking slow.
i appreciate the effort and thoughts, guys like you put into these changes, BUT at the same time, im really happy, that the actuall design/balance team dont do such drastic changes to the game.
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How "fun" it must be to play Protoss in this mod..
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How come theres all these small balance mods lately that are so favorable for a single race? And then dont do any design changes which is the part most people seem to prefer/discuss or want? Not enough utility changes as with most fanmods is my biggest gripe.
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Didn't you forget something? How is Protoss supposed to defend itself early game?
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Russian Federation421 Posts
How exactly does Zerg play against mech? All-in every game?
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On June 03 2017 15:34 dalaiisc2 wrote: why is zerg the only race, that just got nerfs?
without ravager, sentry timings are again really powerfull. bills are the only thing, that zerg can do against FF. without them, you just can watch, how your army dies.. and ravagers were never a problem against mech. swarmhosts are the only problem, mech has atm against zerg. same with abduct.where is the problem with abduct? how do you wanna fight mass air armies without it?
to remove abilities/units from the game is just a cheap way out. its like "i dont have any idea how to balance them, so i removed them". how do you wanna break siegelines before broodlords without swarmhosts? as a zerg, you are forced to turtle to 4-5 base, play a 20min+ game and hope, that they dont kill your broods, or even your base, because broods are so fucking slow.
i appreciate the effort and thoughts, guys like you put into these changes, BUT at the same time, im really happy, that the actuall design/balance team dont do such drastic changes to the game.
Because for some reason, the teams who make these mods keep thinking that if they take away the things that can beat their play style. It's just like avilo's, where he nerfed everything that beats mech.
I honestly don't understand what all the points of these various mods is.
Is it to show us that teams of professional developers can do a better job at balancing video games than random guys who only have their own experiences to go off of?
If so, they succeeded.
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On June 03 2017 21:49 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2017 15:34 dalaiisc2 wrote: why is zerg the only race, that just got nerfs?
without ravager, sentry timings are again really powerfull. bills are the only thing, that zerg can do against FF. without them, you just can watch, how your army dies.. and ravagers were never a problem against mech. swarmhosts are the only problem, mech has atm against zerg. same with abduct.where is the problem with abduct? how do you wanna fight mass air armies without it?
to remove abilities/units from the game is just a cheap way out. its like "i dont have any idea how to balance them, so i removed them". how do you wanna break siegelines before broodlords without swarmhosts? as a zerg, you are forced to turtle to 4-5 base, play a 20min+ game and hope, that they dont kill your broods, or even your base, because broods are so fucking slow.
i appreciate the effort and thoughts, guys like you put into these changes, BUT at the same time, im really happy, that the actuall design/balance team dont do such drastic changes to the game. Because for some reason, the teams who make these mods keep thinking that if they take away the things that can beat their play style. It's just like avilo's, where he nerfed everything that beats mech. I honestly don't understand what all the points of these various mods is. Is it to show us that teams of professional developers can do a better job at balancing video games than random guys who only have their own experiences to go off of? If so, they succeeded.
People use the built-in editor and make custom mods they enjoy playing! How horrible! I don't understand what the point of hating these people is either.
You make it sound like balancing an RTS is hard, but it is actually easier than you think.
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A mod like that is not needed. What SC2 needs is clever redesign of stuff in a progressive fashion. WOL was not the holy grail but a beta. WOL, however, is a good foundation for the actual redesign which was not approached with this mod.
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On June 03 2017 21:56 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2017 21:49 reneg wrote:On June 03 2017 15:34 dalaiisc2 wrote: why is zerg the only race, that just got nerfs?
without ravager, sentry timings are again really powerfull. bills are the only thing, that zerg can do against FF. without them, you just can watch, how your army dies.. and ravagers were never a problem against mech. swarmhosts are the only problem, mech has atm against zerg. same with abduct.where is the problem with abduct? how do you wanna fight mass air armies without it?
to remove abilities/units from the game is just a cheap way out. its like "i dont have any idea how to balance them, so i removed them". how do you wanna break siegelines before broodlords without swarmhosts? as a zerg, you are forced to turtle to 4-5 base, play a 20min+ game and hope, that they dont kill your broods, or even your base, because broods are so fucking slow.
i appreciate the effort and thoughts, guys like you put into these changes, BUT at the same time, im really happy, that the actuall design/balance team dont do such drastic changes to the game. Because for some reason, the teams who make these mods keep thinking that if they take away the things that can beat their play style. It's just like avilo's, where he nerfed everything that beats mech. I honestly don't understand what all the points of these various mods is. Is it to show us that teams of professional developers can do a better job at balancing video games than random guys who only have their own experiences to go off of? If so, they succeeded. People use the built-in editor and make custom mods they enjoy playing! How horrible! I don't understand what the point of hating these people is either. You make it sound like balancing an RTS is hard, but it is actually easier than you think.
"It's easier than you think"
Which results in the following:
This mod:
-Oracle: Removed pulsar beam and revelation -Mothership core: Removed -Adept: Removed their shade. -Muta: Revert movement speed buff -Viper: Abduct removed
Each one of those items addresses an issue - sure - but the rest of the changes do not help what these items were added to address.
Let's break it down:
Mothership core: added to give protoss more staying power in the early game. the way gateway units had been historically balanced, they needed to be a little bit weaker (or warp proxy pylon into warp gate would be too OP), so they are relatively crappy to begin with. Now, since they're crappy, they needed something to help stave off early pressure. Enter: the sentry. Forcefielding ramps helped all throughout WoL.
As time went on, it became a massive investment to be basically required to pump out 2-3 sentries to make sure you stayed safe, and the investment in one mothership core (for a limited amount of photon overcharges, and some mobile defense) addressed.
By just removing it from the game, you essentially tell protoss they won't be allowed to keep up, and prepare to be all-in'd in the first five minutes of every single game.
Adept: You basically take the strength of the adept (mobility) and destroy it. So now it's a slow, low DPS marine (that doesn't shoot up), and has shorter range.
There is basically zero reason to make the adept now. While i realize that shade can be an *extremely* frustrating ability to go up against, it really is the core component that the adept is balanced around. If you remove shade, you would need to do something like increase range, or speed, or DPS, or something. You're basically taking away the backbone of the protoss army, and forcing them to run in with a WOL army (stalker zealot), vs. a LotV Terran army (Widow mines).
Muta: the speed buffs are there to basically allow for zerg to have real mobility in air. Medivacs have boost, Protoss has oracles & phoenix, it makes sense to allow for something with speed to come out of Z. Otherwise they'll be pieced apart slowly.
Viper Abduct: this is one of the few things that really allows a zerg player to catch up to a T or P who is sitting around making capital ships. Abduct also allows for some additional breaking of siege lines. It basically forces the other side to be a little careful with their units, and not leave them in a place where they are completely exposed. Without abilities like abduct, breaking those siege lines becomes extremely difficult.
Sure, blinding cloud still exists, but abduct is extremely useful in helping close that gap.
So, in summary, you SAY things like, "Balancing isn't that hard" - but then we get things like the attached, which don't seem to be that thought out for downstream effects that would have an important impact on the game.
You can't just think "I don't like the way this ability is used" - you have to think about the context with which it was introduced into the game, the specific issues it's trying to address, and how old abilities (untouched by a mod like this) would be overpowered, since those were buffed / adjusted to work in concert with the (now removed) abilities.
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I just realized that I'd actually love playing WoL. Even HotS. SC2 became so superfast, I don't bother playing.
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8716 Posts
I just wanted to see if I can perfect the WoL template. As the players perfect the game, you're going to find it's not such an interesting game. It appears to be interesting when the difference between current play and optimal play is an unknown that has the possibility of containing something interesting. But as current play and optimal play naturally merge with player improvement, it becomes clear that all the potential of the unknown amounts to nothing. The only people perpetually entertained by such a game are the ones who refuse to improve themselves. When their play comes up short of spectacular, instead of being tempted by making an ever better play, they just like to imagine how cool it'd be if they did, and then they never discover the emptiness of actually doing so. The only benefit of this mod is removing the obligation to learn how to play the parts of the game that encourage a higher proficiency to enjoy, which happen to be the parts of the game that make it a better game.
This is like if a novice piano player got the easy version of a song, mastered it, and then prefers to play his simple arrangement while imagining the full arrangement instead of learning to play the more intricate parts himself. Why spend so many hours gaining the technical proficiency required to do the activity fully when you can play your approximation and let your imagination do the rest?
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I agree with the overall philosophy. With the exception of FF reliance for P and broodlord infestor, WoL was very sound and simple and its set of units had potential to grow into something very nice. "Simplify, simplify" ; I'd really like someone to just cut the fat out of the ideas HotS and LotV brought, that were mostly overly complicated and in the end bad design-wise. This is in the end what you try to do, with blatant issues underlined by some posts above, but this is an idea I'd be interested in working on.
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On June 03 2017 23:54 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2017 21:56 404AlphaSquad wrote:On June 03 2017 21:49 reneg wrote:On June 03 2017 15:34 dalaiisc2 wrote: why is zerg the only race, that just got nerfs?
without ravager, sentry timings are again really powerfull. bills are the only thing, that zerg can do against FF. without them, you just can watch, how your army dies.. and ravagers were never a problem against mech. swarmhosts are the only problem, mech has atm against zerg. same with abduct.where is the problem with abduct? how do you wanna fight mass air armies without it?
to remove abilities/units from the game is just a cheap way out. its like "i dont have any idea how to balance them, so i removed them". how do you wanna break siegelines before broodlords without swarmhosts? as a zerg, you are forced to turtle to 4-5 base, play a 20min+ game and hope, that they dont kill your broods, or even your base, because broods are so fucking slow.
i appreciate the effort and thoughts, guys like you put into these changes, BUT at the same time, im really happy, that the actuall design/balance team dont do such drastic changes to the game. Because for some reason, the teams who make these mods keep thinking that if they take away the things that can beat their play style. It's just like avilo's, where he nerfed everything that beats mech. I honestly don't understand what all the points of these various mods is. Is it to show us that teams of professional developers can do a better job at balancing video games than random guys who only have their own experiences to go off of? If so, they succeeded. People use the built-in editor and make custom mods they enjoy playing! How horrible! I don't understand what the point of hating these people is either. You make it sound like balancing an RTS is hard, but it is actually easier than you think. "It's easier than you think" Which results in the following: This mod: -Oracle: Removed pulsar beam and revelation -Mothership core: Removed -Adept: Removed their shade. -Muta: Revert movement speed buff -Viper: Abduct removed .............................................
yeah I am not gonna read through everything you just pointed out. he didnt really try to make a 100% balanced mod, he just made a custom game in which he removed everything that he finds annoying. How is this bad?
Balance is complex yes. But the act of balancing nerfing like Blizzard did isn't very difficult. Widowmine too weak against Protoss? +Dmg to shields. Buff Anti-Air in ZvZ? +dmg to biological air units. They are literally one step to balance +dmg against Zerg/terran/protoss.
On June 04 2017 00:49 NonY wrote:As the players perfect the game, you're going to find it's not such an interesting game. It appears to be interesting when the difference between current play and optimal play is an unknown that has the possibility of containing something interesting. But as current play and optimal play naturally merge with player improvement, it becomes clear that all the potential of the unknown amounts to nothing. The only people perpetually entertained by such a game are the ones who refuse to improve themselves. When their play comes up short of spectacular, instead of being tempted by making an ever better play, they just like to imagine how cool it'd be if they did, and then they never discover the emptiness of actually doing so. The only benefit of this mod is removing the obligation to learn how to play the parts of the game that encourage a higher proficiency to enjoy, which happen to be the parts of the game that make it a better game. This is like if a novice piano player got the easy version of a song, mastered it, and then prefers to play his simple arrangement while imagining the full arrangement instead of learning to play the more intricate parts himself. Why spend so many hours gaining the technical proficiency required to do the activity fully when you can play your approximation and let your imagination do the rest? How good do you have to be to start enjoying the game? I think it is the opposite, the better you get at the game the less you enjoy it.
Unfortunately I do not get your analogy. More complexity to a game doesn't necessarily mean a better game. If someone would come up with different go-pieces who do different things or adds new factions in chess, doesn't necessarily make it better. Just as if you add more notes/complexity to a melody also doesn't make it necessarily better to listen to.
Blizzard had to break their own design philosophy rules, where they said that no race should have more than approx. 12 units. Look at where we are now.
Protoss went from 15 to 20 units Terran went from 13 to 17 (16 if you argue that Hellbat/Hellion are the same unit) Zerg went from 11 to 15
If you would make a BW expansion to implement new units, you are going to find it is very hard to find 4-5 spots for every race that get used and without messing up the gameplay.
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On June 04 2017 00:02 beentheredonethat wrote: I just realized that I'd actually love playing WoL. Even HotS. SC2 became so superfast, I don't bother playing.
You can still play WoL. Go to settings -> Gameplay -> Expansion level.
I still play wol all the time.
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On June 04 2017 00:59 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2017 23:54 reneg wrote:On June 03 2017 21:56 404AlphaSquad wrote:On June 03 2017 21:49 reneg wrote:On June 03 2017 15:34 dalaiisc2 wrote: why is zerg the only race, that just got nerfs?
without ravager, sentry timings are again really powerfull. bills are the only thing, that zerg can do against FF. without them, you just can watch, how your army dies.. and ravagers were never a problem against mech. swarmhosts are the only problem, mech has atm against zerg. same with abduct.where is the problem with abduct? how do you wanna fight mass air armies without it?
to remove abilities/units from the game is just a cheap way out. its like "i dont have any idea how to balance them, so i removed them". how do you wanna break siegelines before broodlords without swarmhosts? as a zerg, you are forced to turtle to 4-5 base, play a 20min+ game and hope, that they dont kill your broods, or even your base, because broods are so fucking slow.
i appreciate the effort and thoughts, guys like you put into these changes, BUT at the same time, im really happy, that the actuall design/balance team dont do such drastic changes to the game. Because for some reason, the teams who make these mods keep thinking that if they take away the things that can beat their play style. It's just like avilo's, where he nerfed everything that beats mech. I honestly don't understand what all the points of these various mods is. Is it to show us that teams of professional developers can do a better job at balancing video games than random guys who only have their own experiences to go off of? If so, they succeeded. People use the built-in editor and make custom mods they enjoy playing! How horrible! I don't understand what the point of hating these people is either. You make it sound like balancing an RTS is hard, but it is actually easier than you think. "It's easier than you think" Which results in the following: This mod: -Oracle: Removed pulsar beam and revelation -Mothership core: Removed -Adept: Removed their shade. -Muta: Revert movement speed buff -Viper: Abduct removed ............................................. yeah I am not gonna read through everything you just pointed out. he didnt really try to make a 100% balanced mod, he just made a custom game in which he removed everything that he finds annoying. How is this bad? Balance is complex yes. But the act of balancing nerfing like Blizzard did isn't very difficult. Widowmine too weak against Protoss? +Dmg to shields. Buff Anti-Air in ZvZ? +dmg to biological air units. They are literally one step to balance +dmg against Zerg/terran/protoss.
Okay, then I'll make it simpler for you:
Why have a balance mod, but not worry about balance? You're right, there is nothing stopping him from doing it, but does doing it mean the changes proposed should be immune from criticism?
And then to address your point: Yes, the changes they made (+damage to shields, +damage to biological) are simple changes, but they are important ones. If they came in and said, "Widow mine now does 1 damage" - that would effectively remove the widow mine from the game. Surely you can see that the values and figures (while simple changes) actually have an impact on how the game is played.
Show nested quote +On June 04 2017 00:49 NonY wrote:I just wanted to see if I can perfect the WoL template. As the players perfect the game, you're going to find it's not such an interesting game. It appears to be interesting when the difference between current play and optimal play is an unknown that has the possibility of containing something interesting. But as current play and optimal play naturally merge with player improvement, it becomes clear that all the potential of the unknown amounts to nothing. The only people perpetually entertained by such a game are the ones who refuse to improve themselves. When their play comes up short of spectacular, instead of being tempted by making an ever better play, they just like to imagine how cool it'd be if they did, and then they never discover the emptiness of actually doing so. The only benefit of this mod is removing the obligation to learn how to play the parts of the game that encourage a higher proficiency to enjoy, which happen to be the parts of the game that make it a better game. This is like if a novice piano player got the easy version of a song, mastered it, and then prefers to play his simple arrangement while imagining the full arrangement instead of learning to play the more intricate parts himself. Why spend so many hours gaining the technical proficiency required to do the activity fully when you can play your approximation and let your imagination do the rest? How good do you have to be to start enjoying the game? I think it is the opposite, the better you get at the game the less you enjoy it. Unfortunately I do not get your analogy. More complexity to a game doesn't necessarily mean a better game. If someone would come up with different go-pieces who do different things or adds new factions in chess, doesn't necessarily make it better. Just as if you add more notes/complexity to a melody also doesn't make it necessarily better to listen to. Blizzard had to break their own design philosophy rules, where they said that no race should have more than approx. 12 units. Look at where we are now. Protoss went from 15 to 20 units Terran went from 13 to 17 (16 if you argue that Hellbat/Hellion are the same unit) Zerg went from 11 to 15 If you would make a BW expansion to implement new units, you are going to find it is very hard to find 4-5 spots for every race that get used and without messing up the gameplay.
(I believe that) He's saying that if you "perfect it" without trying to bother improving yourself, it's like sitting around playing Mary had a little lamb on the piano. You could play it perfectly, but it's not a complex song, you'll grow bored of it. The way to maintain interest in something is to focus on constant improvement.
If you sat around feeling good about how great you are for playing Mary had a little lamb, you would lose interest after a short amount of time. If you kept trying to improve, and progress on to more difficult songs and abilities, you'll keep finding yourself interested in whatever you're trying,
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On June 04 2017 01:55 reneg wrote: Okay, then I'll make it simpler for you: Why have a balance mod, but not worry about balance? You're right, there is nothing stopping him from doing it, but does doing it mean the changes proposed should be immune from criticism?
But where does he claim it to be a balance mod? You just assumed that he was a random balancewhiner and that is why he made this mod.
On June 04 2017 01:55 reneg wrote: And then to address your point: Yes, the changes they made (+damage to shields, +damage to biological) are simple changes, but they are important ones. If they came in and said, "Widow mine now does 1 damage" - that would effectively remove the widow mine from the game. Surely you can see that the values and figures (while simple changes) actually have an impact on how the game is played.
Oh yes you are so right. It is so hard to have +5 dmg vs biological or something equally stupid for 3 months on a testmap and then roll back on that change later and to come back with another equally light change which theng gets 3 months later pushed into the game.
Also I made a mistake. I was not sure about the 12 unit statement so I wanted to see if I could find that statement again. Seems like they never specified the exact number but they said that they wanted to
keep the amount of units for each race to a certain number to keep the gameplay tight
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Update on my big mod (not this one, this one was just some small changes).
Should be done tomorrow then just lots of testing starting hopefully tomorrow. Hopefully it will be live on Friday if not then Saturday the latest.
Even though the testing isnt much since I've been playing it with a diamond guy lol but at least we can see what is too broken or what doesnt work or what is too useless.
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On June 03 2017 21:49 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2017 15:34 dalaiisc2 wrote: why is zerg the only race, that just got nerfs?
without ravager, sentry timings are again really powerfull. bills are the only thing, that zerg can do against FF. without them, you just can watch, how your army dies.. and ravagers were never a problem against mech. swarmhosts are the only problem, mech has atm against zerg. same with abduct.where is the problem with abduct? how do you wanna fight mass air armies without it?
to remove abilities/units from the game is just a cheap way out. its like "i dont have any idea how to balance them, so i removed them". how do you wanna break siegelines before broodlords without swarmhosts? as a zerg, you are forced to turtle to 4-5 base, play a 20min+ game and hope, that they dont kill your broods, or even your base, because broods are so fucking slow.
i appreciate the effort and thoughts, guys like you put into these changes, BUT at the same time, im really happy, that the actuall design/balance team dont do such drastic changes to the game. Because for some reason, the teams who make these mods keep thinking that if they take away the things that can beat their play style. It's just like avilo's, where he nerfed everything that beats mech. I honestly don't understand what all the points of these various mods is. Is it to show us that teams of professional developers can do a better job at balancing video games than random guys who only have their own experiences to go off of? If so, they succeeded.
?????
There was only one person that my tournament that even went mech in their games. 99% of people that played just played standard bio, proving that the naysayers of my changes were 100% absolutely wrong.
In fact, the finals of my tourney was won by Soul, a polish Terran, who played bio every single game in the tournament.
Mech was made a viable option in my mod as it should be on the live version of the game. IT was in no way, shape, or form imbalanced and nothing was nerf hammered hard other than swarmhosts to allow mech viability.
Also more to reply to this thread - it seems most people that have designed or requested changes in SC2 really want LOTV to go back more towards HOTS/WOL in terms of gameplay. It's almost unanimous everywhere that everyone basically hates LOTV changes such as the economy and speed/pacing, and removal of 1500 mineral patches.
But will any of these mods ever reach Blizzard's ears? Probably not. From what i've seen they basically have ignored my $800 prizepool tourney that showed great changes, and their last balance update literally said "we don't think we need to do anything right now."
I mean it's good people like bareleon and others are doing this stuff too, but the problem is reaching Blizzard seems near impossible atm.
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On June 20 2017 08:42 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2017 21:49 reneg wrote:On June 03 2017 15:34 dalaiisc2 wrote: why is zerg the only race, that just got nerfs?
without ravager, sentry timings are again really powerfull. bills are the only thing, that zerg can do against FF. without them, you just can watch, how your army dies.. and ravagers were never a problem against mech. swarmhosts are the only problem, mech has atm against zerg. same with abduct.where is the problem with abduct? how do you wanna fight mass air armies without it?
to remove abilities/units from the game is just a cheap way out. its like "i dont have any idea how to balance them, so i removed them". how do you wanna break siegelines before broodlords without swarmhosts? as a zerg, you are forced to turtle to 4-5 base, play a 20min+ game and hope, that they dont kill your broods, or even your base, because broods are so fucking slow.
i appreciate the effort and thoughts, guys like you put into these changes, BUT at the same time, im really happy, that the actuall design/balance team dont do such drastic changes to the game. Because for some reason, the teams who make these mods keep thinking that if they take away the things that can beat their play style. It's just like avilo's, where he nerfed everything that beats mech. I honestly don't understand what all the points of these various mods is. Is it to show us that teams of professional developers can do a better job at balancing video games than random guys who only have their own experiences to go off of? If so, they succeeded. ????? There was only one person that my tournament that even went mech in their games. 99% of people that played just played standard bio, proving that the naysayers of my changes were 100% absolutely wrong. In fact, the finals of my tourney was won by Soul, a polish Terran, who played bio every single game in the tournament. Mech was made a viable option in my mod as it should be on the live version of the game. IT was in no way, shape, or form imbalanced and nothing was nerf hammered hard other than swarmhosts to allow mech viability. Also more to reply to this thread - it seems most people that have designed or requested changes in SC2 really want LOTV to go back more towards HOTS/WOL in terms of gameplay. It's almost unanimous everywhere that everyone basically hates LOTV changes such as the economy and speed/pacing, and removal of 1500 mineral patches. But will any of these mods ever reach Blizzard's ears? Probably not. From what i've seen they basically have ignored my $800 prizepool tourney that showed great changes, and their last balance update literally said "we don't think we need to do anything right now." I mean it's good people like bareleon and others are doing this stuff too, but the problem is reaching Blizzard seems near impossible atm.
If only one person went mech, you can't really say you proved anything, except that when there's money to be won people will play what they are comfortable with... what a huge surprise. There's a significant difference between one small tournament and thousands of games being played every day.
As for showing "great changes", many people seem to disagree, why should Blizzard listen to you over them?
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On June 20 2017 10:16 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2017 08:42 avilo wrote:On June 03 2017 21:49 reneg wrote:On June 03 2017 15:34 dalaiisc2 wrote: why is zerg the only race, that just got nerfs?
without ravager, sentry timings are again really powerfull. bills are the only thing, that zerg can do against FF. without them, you just can watch, how your army dies.. and ravagers were never a problem against mech. swarmhosts are the only problem, mech has atm against zerg. same with abduct.where is the problem with abduct? how do you wanna fight mass air armies without it?
to remove abilities/units from the game is just a cheap way out. its like "i dont have any idea how to balance them, so i removed them". how do you wanna break siegelines before broodlords without swarmhosts? as a zerg, you are forced to turtle to 4-5 base, play a 20min+ game and hope, that they dont kill your broods, or even your base, because broods are so fucking slow.
i appreciate the effort and thoughts, guys like you put into these changes, BUT at the same time, im really happy, that the actuall design/balance team dont do such drastic changes to the game. Because for some reason, the teams who make these mods keep thinking that if they take away the things that can beat their play style. It's just like avilo's, where he nerfed everything that beats mech. I honestly don't understand what all the points of these various mods is. Is it to show us that teams of professional developers can do a better job at balancing video games than random guys who only have their own experiences to go off of? If so, they succeeded. ????? There was only one person that my tournament that even went mech in their games. 99% of people that played just played standard bio, proving that the naysayers of my changes were 100% absolutely wrong. In fact, the finals of my tourney was won by Soul, a polish Terran, who played bio every single game in the tournament. Mech was made a viable option in my mod as it should be on the live version of the game. IT was in no way, shape, or form imbalanced and nothing was nerf hammered hard other than swarmhosts to allow mech viability. Also more to reply to this thread - it seems most people that have designed or requested changes in SC2 really want LOTV to go back more towards HOTS/WOL in terms of gameplay. It's almost unanimous everywhere that everyone basically hates LOTV changes such as the economy and speed/pacing, and removal of 1500 mineral patches. But will any of these mods ever reach Blizzard's ears? Probably not. From what i've seen they basically have ignored my $800 prizepool tourney that showed great changes, and their last balance update literally said "we don't think we need to do anything right now." I mean it's good people like bareleon and others are doing this stuff too, but the problem is reaching Blizzard seems near impossible atm. If only one person went mech, you can't really say you proved anything, except that when there's money to be won people will play what they are comfortable with... what a huge surprise. There's a significant difference between one small tournament and thousands of games being played every day. As for showing "great changes", many people seem to disagree, why should Blizzard listen to you over them?
It proved mech can be made more viable via giving mech an anti-air unit while not overpowering mech to the point it's the only thing you would see. It was an option for players, not mandatory. On top of that, it also proved heavily that the changes i made impacted bio play basically 0% - meaning none of the changes were game breaking yet hit their intended design target of mech viability 100%.
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On June 20 2017 10:54 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2017 10:16 Myrddraal wrote:On June 20 2017 08:42 avilo wrote:On June 03 2017 21:49 reneg wrote:On June 03 2017 15:34 dalaiisc2 wrote: why is zerg the only race, that just got nerfs?
without ravager, sentry timings are again really powerfull. bills are the only thing, that zerg can do against FF. without them, you just can watch, how your army dies.. and ravagers were never a problem against mech. swarmhosts are the only problem, mech has atm against zerg. same with abduct.where is the problem with abduct? how do you wanna fight mass air armies without it?
to remove abilities/units from the game is just a cheap way out. its like "i dont have any idea how to balance them, so i removed them". how do you wanna break siegelines before broodlords without swarmhosts? as a zerg, you are forced to turtle to 4-5 base, play a 20min+ game and hope, that they dont kill your broods, or even your base, because broods are so fucking slow.
i appreciate the effort and thoughts, guys like you put into these changes, BUT at the same time, im really happy, that the actuall design/balance team dont do such drastic changes to the game. Because for some reason, the teams who make these mods keep thinking that if they take away the things that can beat their play style. It's just like avilo's, where he nerfed everything that beats mech. I honestly don't understand what all the points of these various mods is. Is it to show us that teams of professional developers can do a better job at balancing video games than random guys who only have their own experiences to go off of? If so, they succeeded. ????? There was only one person that my tournament that even went mech in their games. 99% of people that played just played standard bio, proving that the naysayers of my changes were 100% absolutely wrong. In fact, the finals of my tourney was won by Soul, a polish Terran, who played bio every single game in the tournament. Mech was made a viable option in my mod as it should be on the live version of the game. IT was in no way, shape, or form imbalanced and nothing was nerf hammered hard other than swarmhosts to allow mech viability. Also more to reply to this thread - it seems most people that have designed or requested changes in SC2 really want LOTV to go back more towards HOTS/WOL in terms of gameplay. It's almost unanimous everywhere that everyone basically hates LOTV changes such as the economy and speed/pacing, and removal of 1500 mineral patches. But will any of these mods ever reach Blizzard's ears? Probably not. From what i've seen they basically have ignored my $800 prizepool tourney that showed great changes, and their last balance update literally said "we don't think we need to do anything right now." I mean it's good people like bareleon and others are doing this stuff too, but the problem is reaching Blizzard seems near impossible atm. If only one person went mech, you can't really say you proved anything, except that when there's money to be won people will play what they are comfortable with... what a huge surprise. There's a significant difference between one small tournament and thousands of games being played every day. As for showing "great changes", many people seem to disagree, why should Blizzard listen to you over them? It proved mech can be made more viable via giving mech an anti-air unit while not overpowering mech to the point it's the only thing you would see. It was an option for players, not mandatory. On top of that, it also proved heavily that the changes i made impacted bio play basically 0% - meaning none of the changes were game breaking yet hit their intended design target of mech viability 100%.
Well as far as I can tell you didn't touch bio (apart from reaper grenade of course), yet you straight up nerfed protoss (apart from charge cost which is in the game now anyway) and mostly nerfed zerg, so if anything you made bio stronger and it's again no surprise that a Terran won with standard bio.
Based on the skill difference between players and small sample size you can't really assert that the changes weren't game breaking, you need more games with players of similar skill levels to really see how the changes play out.
In saying that I do wish Blizzard would be open to testing more significant changes more broadly. Something like a featured balance mod with it's own mini ladder would be cool. They could give out special portraits to users who reach the top or play enough games as incentives.
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