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Hello,
This post is for the discussion regarding cheating at offline events and the use of cellphones (and why I argue it should not be allowed). Earlier today a ro16 game between Namshar vs Utherhmal was being played at the WCS Jönköping tournament.
During the time between game 2 and 3 you can clearly see how Namshar is wearing his cellphone in his pocket and it clearly is turned on: http://imgur.com/a/p0POY (I am in no way claiming that Namshar is cheating, it's just an example)
Why is this a problem? As most of you are aware, cellphones have a vibrate function. This vibrate function can be utilized for potential cheating in terms of warnings and other types of information to the player wearing the cellphone. A simple example can be something along the lines of 1 person spectating the game and using different combinations of "vibrations" to notify information. For example: Phone vibrates 1 time: Opponent spawn in top left. Phone vibrates 2 times: Opponent spawn in top right. Phone vibrates 3 times: Opponent spawn in bottom left. This can ofcourse be expanded so it includes different types of warning of build orders (cheese/greedy play).
There's obviously a financial interest in a competition like this and history has shown us that any edge a person may gain, including breaking the rulebook, will probably be used by someone at somepoint. If it's not regulated to use a cellphone, the risk of getting caught for something like this is very small while the reward can be very high (for instance, imagine Naniwa getting information about where Flash spawned when he 11/11 raxed him at a MLG years ago). Thus the reward severely outweighs the risk a player takes by abusing this.
Dreamhack already have been collecting players cellphones during ther CSGO tournaments (https://twitter.com/HLTVorg/status/537919782943993857) and the only reason I believe Dreamhack doesnt use this in Starcraft 2 is logistics and cost management,(one of dreamhacks strengths regarding managing esports event over the years has actually been managing costs very smartly, but that's a different story). Having someone collect phones would obviously require some kind of person/labour doing it and as most people know running Starcraft 2 events is not exactly a cash cow at this point. With that said Blizzard is probably the ones covering alot of the costs if not all of them for their WCS events. Working toward esports being cheat free should atleast be in their interest to say the least.
I would like to hear your opinions regarding this and maybe even someone at Dreamhack would care to respond.
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Impossible to stop this unless they strip-search every player.
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On June 19 2017 05:19 Psychobabas wrote: Impossible to stop this unless they strip-search every player.
Which in my opinion should not be a impossibility to do, for example in fighting sports you check the gloves and in sprinting you even measure the length of the spikes on the shoes.
Edit: With "strip-search" I obviously didn't mean the need of taking clothes off.
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Holy you're right! They need to not allow players keep electronics on them. No need to strip search, just have them empty their pockets when they play. Similar to when you go clubbing.
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Probably most progamer never thought about this, you might just gave them a great idea
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On June 19 2017 05:47 Aegwynn wrote:Probably most progamer never thought about this, you might just gave them a great idea pretty sure I saw a thread like this already a while ago.
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Handing over phones in high level csgo events have been common practice for maybe the last 2 years because of this possibility. No pro has ever been caught or suspected but it's an easy safeguard.
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On June 19 2017 05:19 Psychobabas wrote: Impossible to stop this unless they strip-search every player.
Boxers and UFC fighters are examined for the presence of foreign objects before entering the ring/cage for every fight.
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Here's the thing though, if you have to give your phone to staff for the duration of the match, how are you gonna go to the LR threads mid-series for strategic advice?
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i think the biggest thing is that if you're still in the starcraft competitive scene at this point, you're probably not primarily doing it for the money but for the love of the competition/game
when you spend years playing this game, it feels pretty shitty to cheapen your victories. i remember a specific incident where my girlfriend at the time messaged me (not telling me what my opponent was doing) freaking out because my opponent was proxying me. i kinda guessed that they were so i sort of threw the game on purpose because i didn't want to win with that advantage. this was iem ny qualifier 2011 vs qxc (or maybe some other terran?, maybe on shattered temple?)
a lot of players also stream ladder games even during ladder qualifiers, or open tournaments, or even more important qualifiers. at this point most progamers have accepted that if you're still in the scene at this point you're probably not trying to cheat others out of money (except for maybe some small exceptions like guru) and that you can trust people for the most part
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On June 19 2017 06:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2017 05:19 Psychobabas wrote: Impossible to stop this unless they strip-search every player.
Boxers and UFC fighters are examined for the presence of foreign objects before entering the ring/cage for every fight.
So they gonna check if someone has something hidden in his underwear or strapped to his inner thigh in a sc2 tour...?
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Theyre already wearing earpieces.. Would be much simpler for them to just get information talked out by somebody in the audience.
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Are you sure you ain't just being paranoid?
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i dont really think its feasible to be getting much info from vibrations when playing a game like sc2 at 300+ apm and if theyre getting vibrations about something like spawn locations i hate to say it but who cares? i doubt its even happening and if it is you still have to play 10-15 minutes of facemelting starcraft to win these tournaments. i cant imagine this making much of a difference compared to skill and tactics
i mean maybe if you had receipts of someone actually being caught doing something shady with their phone this would seem like something that matters, but i dunno dude you're just kind of inventing a problem
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Norway839 Posts
Non issue. Top wcs players are morally sound and would rather be losing and be poor, than winning by cheating or match fixing. Most of the people in wcs play for fun and glory, money to live sure but not that type of greed. Taking away phone does nothing besides lowering player quality of life at tournaments. a try-hard cheater can still use advanced cheating gear even with a phone being taken. But afaik in all my years of sc this is a non issue and I'd be very surprised to learn if communication ever happened.
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On June 19 2017 06:23 Elentos wrote: Here's the thing though, if you have to give your phone to staff for the duration of the match, how are you gonna go to the LR threads mid-series for strategic advice?
Using the computer?
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On June 19 2017 06:44 Liquid`Snute wrote: Non issue. Top wcs players are morally sound and would rather be losing and be poor, than winning by cheating or match fixing. Most of the people in wcs play for fun and glory, money to live sure but not that type of greed. Taking away phone does nothing besides lowering player quality of life at tournaments. a try-hard cheater can still use advanced cheating gear even with a phone being taken. But afaik in all my years of sc this is a non issue and I'd be very surprised to learn if communication ever happened. pretty sure the korean pros would have also said that before the recent scandals..
but as Brickrd said, it's probably just not worth it considering the small gain you can get through it
edit : found the original thread where this was discussed http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/261142-question-concern-about-cheating
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Well, technically it is possible to cheat using phones but with the game like SC2 with so much concentration and multitasking, you barely notice anything except the game itself.
Players at this top level with many years of experiences have a lot of pride and integrity. It is hard to imagine them throwing it all away just for some quick bucks.
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On June 19 2017 06:23 Elentos wrote: Here's the thing though, if you have to give your phone to staff for the duration of the match, how are you gonna go to the LR threads mid-series for strategic advice?
Well, when I was an admin ad DH Stockholm there were some heavy DDOSing. During the pause of the games, a player actually tabbed out and went straight into the TL-Tourney threads. The player also admitted when I asked him about it...
So it is funny cause it is true xD
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On June 19 2017 06:44 Liquid`Snute wrote: Non issue. Top wcs players are morally sound and would rather be losing and be poor, than winning by cheating or match fixing. Most of the people in wcs play for fun and glory, money to live sure but not that type of greed. Taking away phone does nothing besides lowering player quality of life at tournaments. a try-hard cheater can still use advanced cheating gear even with a phone being taken. But afaik in all my years of sc this is a non issue and I'd be very surprised to learn if communication ever happened. Snute just talking some logic.... OR IS HE COVERING HIS TRACKS?!?!?! :O:O
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