I'll bring two perspective, standard user/player perspective, and streamer perspective.
I want to discuss that Blizzard should ban/remove all barcode accounts from the SC2 ladder.
edit: CLARIFICATION - when i say "ban" in the title of the thread and in general, i mean "abolish" or "remove" barcode anonymity from the ladder. Not to literally ban everyone with a barcode account to be unable to play. Just clarifying.
Ladder play is supposed to be a fair experience for every player involved, and knowing who you are playing is a part of that experience.
When you play versus 5 barcodes and you have no idea who they are, what their tendencies are, what builds they might use...but they see your account as "Liquid Snute," or "avilo,' or "Puck," these players can immediately have an information advantage just by knowing who you are in the community and what your tendencies are and what your range of builds are.
This is a huge deal. The solution and counter-argument should not be "just make a barcode as well!" because that is a ridiculous argument and doesnt' address the main point.
Barcode accounts are simply an unfair advantage because you maintain your anonymity while knowing who your opponent is. Would this scenario ever occur in a tournament bo3/bo5/boX? No. You might play an unknown player, but you at least know who they are and can look up VODS, etc. or get some information on them.
As a player/pro/ladder player...barcodes absolutely give an unfair advantage and i think it's time we discuss this as a community and hopefully get blizzard to get rid of these accounts. If people want to practice anonymously they can do custom games - a public ladder is not the place for having such an unfair advantage.
Now, i want to go to the streamer perspective.
As a streamer with a pretty good viewer base...this is a huge issue for me personally. I do not know how much it is for other streamers getting sniped, but every other game i'm playing versus a barcoded player sniping my stream.
It would already be bad enough playing versus barcodes normally, but then as a streamer when these people are purposely harrassing via barcodes over and over...how do i report these people or identify them to blizzard or twitch? There really is no winning here as the streamer in terms of putting an end to the harrassment from anonymous people on barcodes.
At least if i knew their ID, i would be able to metagame them as well. Simply put, it's everything a normal player experiences but amplified because streaming the game let's people snipe my stream anonymously for an even more ridiculously unfair advantage.
What do people think of this? I personally do not think the SC2 competitive ladder should allow for barcodes and something should finally be done about it.
The best analogy i can think of in relation to a standard username player playing versus a barcode player on the ladder is - you are basically playing a game of poker with part of your hand revealed to the barcode, but you cannot see his cards at all.
I agree barcodes are stupid. Names should be unique like in League of Legends. In comparison to 1% of the earth population playing League it shouldent be impossible to make a unique ID in SC2 aswell.
People will just find another way to hide their identities. Ban one kind of commonly used anonymous username, and another one will appear. This is online play, not a tournement; the possibility that you don't know who your opponents are is always part of it. Nor should we suddenly start changing the rules of the ladder just for streamers. PUBG has gone too far catering to streamers, and that pissed off a lot of players. There's tools streamers can use to decrease the chances of getting snipes. Use them, and accept the risk that comes with streaming, instead of asking that the ladder be altered for a miniscule portion of the player base.
I'm glad that avilo is out there looking out for us all and addressing all these "unfair" issues which don't affect 99.9% of the player base. Besides how do you even enforce it. There's dozens of players out there using the name "killer" for example--should they be penalized for unfairly trying to hide their identity? What a joke.
On September 12 2017 05:35 Psychobabas wrote: Kripparian from Hearthstone had a group of people that constantly streamsniped him. He gathered lots of proof and Blizzard actually banned them all.
looks like the idiot above me just showed exactly what i mean
Maybe it's just me but I feel like a turn-based card game where a lot of the thinking is about "what does the opponent have in his hand right now" is a lot more vulnerable and susceptible to stream sniping than a multitask-demanding RTS. In Hearthstone that information could easily determine the outcome of the match, were you somehow able to get it, whereas in SC2 it doesn't matter too much if you're not able to execute (macro & micro).
Anyway I'm pretty sure Blizzard released a statement about this some years back (back when the RatZ people and other unsavoury drama mongers like Destiny and MaximusBlack still plagued our scene with this bullshit) where they basically said they don't consider it a problem and if streamers do then it's up to them to set up a delay or whatever.
On September 12 2017 05:44 Biedrik wrote: People will just find another way to hide their identities. Ban one kind of commonly used anonymous username, and another one will appear. This is online play, not a tournement; the possibility that you don't know who your opponents are is always part of it. Nor should we suddenly start changing the rules of the ladder just for streamers. PUBG has gone too far catering to streamers, and that pissed off a lot of players. There's tools streamers can use to decrease the chances of getting snipes. Use them, and accept the risk that comes with streaming, instead of asking that the ladder be altered for a miniscule portion of the player base.
How does this apply to having a competitive ladder that is fair?
I wrote from two perspectives. Even as a player on the ladder that does not stream it's an unfair disadvantage to be playing under your username versus a random barcode that can metagame you/know your range of builds and you enter the game seeing them as lllllllllllllllllllllll aka you have zero information on them.
On September 12 2017 05:44 Biedrik wrote: People will just find another way to hide their identities. Ban one kind of commonly used anonymous username, and another one will appear. This is online play, not a tournement; the possibility that you don't know who your opponents are is always part of it. Nor should we suddenly start changing the rules of the ladder just for streamers. PUBG has gone too far catering to streamers, and that pissed off a lot of players. There's tools streamers can use to decrease the chances of getting snipes. Use them, and accept the risk that comes with streaming, instead of asking that the ladder be altered for a miniscule portion of the player base.
How does this apply to having a competitive ladder that is fair?
I wrote from two perspectives. Even as a player on the ladder that does not stream it's an unfair disadvantage to be playing under your username versus a random barcode that can metagame you/know your range of builds and you enter the game seeing them as lllllllllllllllllllllll aka you have zero information on them.
Why should there be a guarantee that you know anything about your opponent on ladder? Most of us are in leagues with so many players that most of the time each opponent pretty much is anonymous to us, regardless of what their username is. Besides, like I said, if barcodes are banned then people can just switch to a different style of anonymous name. Maybe the number of guys called "avilo" will just increase even more. Ultimately, you're presuming that there's some kind of right to know your opponent's identity, which there isn't on the ladder. If you choose to play without hiding who you are then that's on you, not Blizzard.
right so instead of having barcode people can just have a name that isnt Liquid Snute like SchnitzelDog and somehow that doesnt help deduce that its Snute ?
In your average diamond league game chances are you have never played your opponent before. This is only a problem for people in higher MMRs because they have less of a pool of people to play with. But even then I don't really care if my opponent would know what type of player I am. This is not a significant advantage. If my style is not diverse enough to adapt to my opponent, then I'm probably not as good of a player than I thought I was. If you're unsure what your opponent is doing - just scout.
Ways to fix this would probably be the ability to include information on the load screen, such as your opponents playstyle in the last 50 games. And some way to identify players during or after games. Like information on when you last played a particular opponent.. but this is so much work for little to no gain for Blizzard so it's never going to happen.
So as other ppl have posted: 1) It doesn't affect enough people for Blizz to give a shit 2) There will always be ways around being anonymous
Ladder isn't a serious place to compete, that's what tournaments are for.
Who cares about ladder? Ladder is just there to practice, the only time when ladder rankings are important are for the WCS challenger competition and barcodes are banned there.
On September 12 2017 06:04 Charoisaur wrote: Who cares about ladder? Ladder is just there to practice, the only time when ladder rankings are important are for the WCS challenger competition and barcodes are banned there.
Dude, ladder is for making your mmr-shaped e-penis as big as possible. it's serious business
I propose we ban all accounts called avilo. I expected the terran to play a dozey blind defensive mech game and instead I got aggressive waves of mech thrown at me. How dare these mass avilo accounts ruin ladder!
On September 12 2017 06:19 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I propose we ban all accounts called avilo. I expected the terran to play a dozey blind defensive mech game and instead I got aggressive waves of mech thrown at me. How dare these mass avilo accounts ruin ladder!
Heh I've done that before. Changed my name to avilo, got into GM, changed my portrait to Kachinsky, and got into his clan. Got at least 20 free wins from auto leaves and people preparing for a turtle style of play instead of a quick 5:00 double medivac marine drop.
On September 12 2017 05:35 Psychobabas wrote: Kripparian from Hearthstone had a group of people that constantly streamsniped him. He gathered lots of proof and Blizzard actually banned them all.
On September 12 2017 05:35 Psychobabas wrote: Kripparian from Hearthstone had a group of people that constantly streamsniped him. He gathered lots of proof and Blizzard actually banned them all.
I want to clarify that in the SC2 community we usually distinguish between knowing when to hit find match to get a particular opponent (sniping) and watching your opponent's stream while you play against him (ghosting). Sniping isn't totally fair play, since you're gaming the matchmaking system, but it's not really harmful enough to be frowned upon. I myself sniped Hyun when he was 70-0 or whatever on NA. Ghosting, on the other hand, is straight-up cheating and is never okay. I'm not really sure that there are many Hearthstone snipers that aren't ghosting so the two are pretty much synonymous in that community. But in SC2, many people are thrilled to have a chance to play against certain players, so they snipe, close the stream, and then give it their best fair shot.
LOOOOOOL this is hilarious because avilo was raging on stream due to losing to the same barcode guy and lo and behold a new thread appears on teamliquid minutes later. LOOOOOL
thank you avilo for being the hero we deserve. you keep sc2, a daed game, alive with your antics. you are 100000x more entertaining than idra
On September 12 2017 05:35 Psychobabas wrote: Kripparian from Hearthstone had a group of people that constantly streamsniped him. He gathered lots of proof and Blizzard actually banned them all.
I want to clarify that in the SC2 community we usually distinguish between knowing when to hit find match to get a particular opponent (sniping) and watching your opponent's stream while you play against him (ghosting). Sniping isn't totally fair play, since you're gaming the matchmaking system, but it's not really harmful enough to be frowned upon. I myself sniped Hyun when he was 70-0 or whatever on NA. Ghosting, on the other hand, is straight-up cheating and is never okay. I'm not really sure that there are many Hearthstone snipers that aren't ghosting so the two are pretty much synonymous in that community. But in SC2, many people are thrilled to have a chance to play against certain players, so they snipe, close the stream, and then give it their best fair shot.
this...unless you're doing it repeatedly to the point of harassment, i don't see a problem with 'sniping'.....'stream cheating' however is an actual problem
On September 12 2017 07:28 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Also, it's avilo, so when he claims that everybody is stream watching and sniping him, it should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Its kinda easy to see hes getting sniped when he take a long pause after games to watch replay and thereafter instant Q into the same opponent.
On September 12 2017 05:35 Psychobabas wrote: Kripparian from Hearthstone had a group of people that constantly streamsniped him. He gathered lots of proof and Blizzard actually banned them all.
I want to clarify that in the SC2 community we usually distinguish between knowing when to hit find match to get a particular opponent (sniping) and watching your opponent's stream while you play against him (ghosting). Sniping isn't totally fair play, since you're gaming the matchmaking system, but it's not really harmful enough to be frowned upon. I myself sniped Hyun when he was 70-0 or whatever on NA. Ghosting, on the other hand, is straight-up cheating and is never okay. I'm not really sure that there are many Hearthstone snipers that aren't ghosting so the two are pretty much synonymous in that community. But in SC2, many people are thrilled to have a chance to play against certain players, so they snipe, close the stream, and then give it their best fair shot.
I have a question, coming just from my ignorance from the subject (I specify it because I have no intention to flame, just to profit from the experience of streamers / pro-players posting here):
is it possible to avoid the "ghosting" problem by setting a long delay time for the stream?
This seems an easy solution, so I guess that it does not work very well and I'm wandering why. Maybe sniping is still possible with some guessing, but ghosting should be much harder with a ˜5min delay. Does this impact the quality of the stream (e.g. more difficult to interact with the chat and the people watching)?
On September 12 2017 05:35 Psychobabas wrote: Kripparian from Hearthstone had a group of people that constantly streamsniped him. He gathered lots of proof and Blizzard actually banned them all.
I want to clarify that in the SC2 community we usually distinguish between knowing when to hit find match to get a particular opponent (sniping) and watching your opponent's stream while you play against him (ghosting). Sniping isn't totally fair play, since you're gaming the matchmaking system, but it's not really harmful enough to be frowned upon. I myself sniped Hyun when he was 70-0 or whatever on NA. Ghosting, on the other hand, is straight-up cheating and is never okay. I'm not really sure that there are many Hearthstone snipers that aren't ghosting so the two are pretty much synonymous in that community. But in SC2, many people are thrilled to have a chance to play against certain players, so they snipe, close the stream, and then give it their best fair shot.
I have a question, coming just from my ignorance from the subject (I specify it because I have no intention to flame, just to profit from the experience of streamers / pro-players posting here):
is it possible to avoid the "ghosting" problem by setting a long delay time for the stream?
This seems an easy solution, so I guess that it does not work very well and I'm wandering why. Maybe sniping is still possible with some guessing, but ghosting should be much harder with a ˜5min delay. Does this impact the quality of the stream (e.g. more difficult to interact with the chat and the people watching)?
thanks!
Yeah it solves the problem but as you said, career streamers will make more money by having no delay and actively interacting with their viewers. Better to keep the delay low so you can be interactive and use your exposure to cheaters as a way to generate drama and entertainment. A progamer that's just being nice and sharing some practice with the world can set a long delay and forget that they're even streaming.
On September 12 2017 05:35 Psychobabas wrote: Kripparian from Hearthstone had a group of people that constantly streamsniped him. He gathered lots of proof and Blizzard actually banned them all.
I want to clarify that in the SC2 community we usually distinguish between knowing when to hit find match to get a particular opponent (sniping) and watching your opponent's stream while you play against him (ghosting). Sniping isn't totally fair play, since you're gaming the matchmaking system, but it's not really harmful enough to be frowned upon. I myself sniped Hyun when he was 70-0 or whatever on NA. Ghosting, on the other hand, is straight-up cheating and is never okay. I'm not really sure that there are many Hearthstone snipers that aren't ghosting so the two are pretty much synonymous in that community. But in SC2, many people are thrilled to have a chance to play against certain players, so they snipe, close the stream, and then give it their best fair shot.
I have a question, coming just from my ignorance from the subject (I specify it because I have no intention to flame, just to profit from the experience of streamers / pro-players posting here):
is it possible to avoid the "ghosting" problem by setting a long delay time for the stream?
This seems an easy solution, so I guess that it does not work very well and I'm wandering why. Maybe sniping is still possible with some guessing, but ghosting should be much harder with a ˜5min delay. Does this impact the quality of the stream (e.g. more difficult to interact with the chat and the people watching)?
thanks!
This ruins viewer interaction which is a huge part of how most streamers gain / retain an audience.
A better solution would be to scene switch when not in a game and wait a random amount of time to queue back up so you don't show when you're in queue, but this has a bunch of inherent problems as well and it would still be possible to snipe someone because you'd still have a general idea of when they're queue'ing. You can actually snipe people just by having them on your friends list too.
And it doesn't solve stream cheating in any way, which is the actual issue.
On September 12 2017 05:35 Psychobabas wrote: Kripparian from Hearthstone had a group of people that constantly streamsniped him. He gathered lots of proof and Blizzard actually banned them all.
I want to clarify that in the SC2 community we usually distinguish between knowing when to hit find match to get a particular opponent (sniping) and watching your opponent's stream while you play against him (ghosting). Sniping isn't totally fair play, since you're gaming the matchmaking system, but it's not really harmful enough to be frowned upon. I myself sniped Hyun when he was 70-0 or whatever on NA. Ghosting, on the other hand, is straight-up cheating and is never okay. I'm not really sure that there are many Hearthstone snipers that aren't ghosting so the two are pretty much synonymous in that community. But in SC2, many people are thrilled to have a chance to play against certain players, so they snipe, close the stream, and then give it their best fair shot.
I have a question, coming just from my ignorance from the subject (I specify it because I have no intention to flame, just to profit from the experience of streamers / pro-players posting here):
is it possible to avoid the "ghosting" problem by setting a long delay time for the stream?
This seems an easy solution, so I guess that it does not work very well and I'm wandering why. Maybe sniping is still possible with some guessing, but ghosting should be much harder with a ˜5min delay. Does this impact the quality of the stream (e.g. more difficult to interact with the chat and the people watching)?
thanks!
Nony basically already answered this. Using a delay makes it really difficult to interact with your audience on-the-fly. Ofc as Nony already said if you're strictly a pro-gamer and streaming is a 2nd form of revenue for you then it might not matter if you use a delay because you're mostly just interested in getting in practice games and just happen to be streaming so people can watch them.
Personally, i'm mostly an SC2 person that's stream-focused atm rather than pro-gamer focused or tournament focused. I've used a delay before on my stream two or so times in the past, using a 5 minute delay.
My winrate during those streaming sessions where i had the delay on jumped up dramatically, to something around 80 or 90% of ladder games i was managing to win. I remember one of them i had won 11/12 games.
So yeh, a delay definitely does work wonders, but it makes it a pain in the ass for interaction.
Honestly, i hope more people discuss the strictly player perspective of barcode accounts. Would it not be good if at least Grandmasters / Masters league made non-barcodes mandatory so you can see who you are playing against? If for example it's Nony VS lllllllllllllll on ladder regardless of how good Nony is or whoever player X is in that situation versus the barcode....the barcode gets a free information advantage because he knows he's playing versus "Nony."
Am i saying this means so and so won't beat a barcode? Hell no. But is there any way to really deny using a barcode account is blatantly giving you an information advantage? I doubt anyone can argue against this, i'd like to hear a good argument of how a barcode does not give you an advantage versus a player using a known account name.
Also, please (as usual with my threads) i'd appreciate it if people would read and discuss the content not ad hominem versus me that wrote it. I'm honestly wondering if i can ask at TL admin/mod if i can make an anon account here for posts like this because it's hard as fuck to discuss anything without people immediately going ad hominem to my name even when i have legit points. (and yes i see the irony of asking to be able to post anon in a thread discussing barcodes xD)
People seem to be de-railing the thread a little bit talking about stream sniping which was just a side-note compared to the main discussion point i wanted to bring up which were barcode accounts themselves and whether or not it's fair for people to be able to use them on the ladder.
Thanks for the answers - that was not super evident to me, because I tend to watch VODs / youtube videos / etc. but rarely live streams, so I miss the interaction with the streamer already - but it makes perfect sense
I think the best answer for avilo is what someone said, queue up without the screen on stream, so no one can see when you click search. It sucks, you have to change up your timings of searching and maybe wait a few minutes between games just to search but if it affects you that much, thats what you have to do.
On September 12 2017 09:49 ReachTheSky wrote: Avilo-nothing is stopping you from being anonymous as well. Just use a barcode and ffs put a god damn stream delay on. Problem solved.
I dislike Avilo as much as the next person... but barcode is stupid as fuck, and telling someone else to just do the same thing is quite simply making the problem worse.
That SAID... +1 on the second point. Stream delay man, or just don't display that part. Not that hard.
I can't believe anyone takes this seriously. 90%+ are accused of stream sniping, yet, NOT ONCE, have I ever seen the guy simply take a second to look at their match history. You know, where you could see that a majority of the time his opponent probably happened to just get done playing a match.
It's all a joke. Big whoop, even in theory. Oh, no... my ladder opponent knows me but I don't know him. Omg, if only I played solid builds. Boo hoo.
On September 12 2017 09:49 ReachTheSky wrote: Avilo-nothing is stopping you from being anonymous as well. Just use a barcode and ffs put a god damn stream delay on. Problem solved.
I disagree with your point about ladder. If it's such a big deal, change your name to barcode.
As for streamer perspective I agree. It's really cool when 2 pros meet up on ladder, crazy shenanigans can ensue as a result, and not having that name can ruin the effect.
i think avilo should have a special upgrade to his account that provides a live, realtime updating onscreen overlay of his opponent's build order in his previous game so the opponent can't unfairly try to introduce variance or tactics to his play
It is absolutely a flawed game mechanic in need of a fix.
Players should not be incentivized to create identical impersonal names in order to be playing at on an equal footing with the rest of the community.
Barcodes offer a clear gameplay advantage, and the choice to not use them handicaps you.
THIS is broken game design. Certainly Blizzard did not envision a ranked leaderboard where half the names are IIIIIIIII. But the incentive system they created by allowing players to have identical looking names forced this on the players.
There absolutely needs to be a way to identify your opponent before the game starts. Perhaps adding a public unique identifier to each account, or allowing players to add a note to other accounts for the loading screen could be some form a solution.
The important thing is they need to eliminate the incentive so that players can feel free to choose their own unique names and express themselves, instead of being forced into the impersonal barcode.
When a significant amount of players are using the name IIIIIIIIII, you know you messed up somewhere in creating your multiplayer system. FIX IT, Blizzard.
And to the people saying "use a barcode then!" THANK YOU THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT HERE. THAT'S THE PROBLEM. That you are encouraged to use a barcode if you want to compete at an optimal level on ladder. *That* is NOT good game design. That is a broken system. Everyone should feel free to use their own name without fear of handicapping themselves.
On September 12 2017 05:32 avilo wrote: Barcode accounts are simply an unfair advantage because you maintain your anonymity while knowing who your opponent is.
its unfair but the ladder isn't very important. i'd rather have Blizzard focus their limited software engineering resources on other issues.
some ladder games will be fair. some will be unfair. life isn't perfect... let's just live with a sometimes fair ladder and be happy with the fair games we do get to play.
i'd rather Blizzard focus their very limited RTS resources on other issues.
Guys, I was playing a game of Texas hold em, and I accidentally dropped my 2 cards face up.
I don't think it was fair that my opponents saw my cards, and they should have been forced to look away as soon as they realized my cards were exposed.
Sure, you could tell me that I should have hidden my cards better, but it's not fair that they had eyes to see what I did.
Ok I could get banned/warned for my comment above, so I will add something meaningful, at least I think it will be.
Barcodes have been around during BW. Those crazy Koreans were so secretive of their builds, so they created barcodes.
That is the original purpose.
Now creating barcode accounts for the sole purpose of stream-sniping/ghosting on the ladder is deplorable, but I don't think Blizzard really cares. However, for tournament purposes, barcodes are banned, and streaming during WCS qualifiers requires a stream delay anyways.
It sucks to see barcodes, but I think we need to put down the stick and let the dead mule rot.
There's a really simple solution to this, whether barcodes or whatever is thought by you to be a "problem" or "non-problem" that can make a person of any viewpoint improve its outlook.
It's called private/public identifier, aka dynamic polymorphism.
Basically this is how it works: You yourself have the option to set your tag to whatever you want. You also have a long generating key KEY1, like RSA, and a short decipher key KEY2. Your KEY1 is visible to the computer of the person playing you, but the public identifier that organism sees on screen is UNIQUELY determined by his KEY2 and your KEY1. Also, the public profile you see for your opponent is UNIQUELY determined by your KEY2 and his KEY1.
The keys of other players which are on YOUR computer are given before the match and deleted after the match everywhere except on your and your opponent's computer. Match history is publicly recorded in the public identifier of your opponent, though the chain of private records on your opponent's computer contains your public key. YOUR OWN KEYSET is never deleted from your computer and is NOT EVER STORED ON BATTLENET. The system, after matching you by MMR and Sigma (your only other pieces of publicly available info), sends your public key to the other player and receives the public key from that player, etc.....
You can see how this works.
Example: Player 1 chooses name "ZestIsWerst" Player 2 chooses name "DvaYdebyZero" Player 3 chooses name "LoLnonWoL"
Player 1 plays a series of games with player 2 & 3. In the UI, this is what is seen:
Player 1 sees player 2's name as BlueRaynorZerglingCopper and Player 3's name as ScvMonkeyEUPylon Player 2 sees player 1's name as RedFoxArtanisFive and Player 2's name as WildOrangeVodkaKerrigan Player 3 sees player 2's name as TreeMooseKaraxProbe and Player 1's name as MeleeBarracksQueenEight etc.etc. You get the point.
Basically nobody except the person who you play can determine who you are from that match online. The exception is this: THE GRANDMASTERLEADERBORD IS RANKED 2-ways, just like ordinary two-name nomenclature.
Your first name is your character name. Example: Player 1 makes it to top 8 on GM. He is listed with first name ZestIsWerst - and, if you have played him within the last season (or two or whatever, ignore the point) has a last name visible which is the usual one you encounter.
EXAMPLE. Player 2 is not on the GM list but looks at the GM list. He sees in position #7:
ZestIsWerst RedFoxArtanisFive
Player 3 is looks at the GM list and sees in position #7:
ZestIsWerst TreeMooseKaraxProbe
Player 4, meanwhile, has never played Player 1 in the last 1-2 seasons, and so only sees
#7- ZestIsWerst BLANKBLANKBLANKBLANK
Believe me, this system solves all your problems and is desperately needed in e-sports.
Autumn22 has a good solution with creating notes. After a game, you should be able to make a note on a player. When the loading screen pops up, if you've added a note for that player, it should be shown.
For Avilo in the meantime, I'd recommend not being so predictable. Mech as you have X% of the time, but throw in some other builds, especially aggressive ones, so that nobody is blind countering you on name alone.
On September 12 2017 05:35 Psychobabas wrote: Kripparian from Hearthstone had a group of people that constantly streamsniped him. He gathered lots of proof and Blizzard actually banned them all.
looks like the idiot above me just showed exactly what i mean
I like watching Kripp, and it sux when he's getting stream sniped, but nowhere from that video was there a mention of Blizzard banning anyone.
Blizzard doesn't care if you stream and get sniped or ghosted. They've said countless times it's not cheating.
Streamers openly share their screen with the public, and the unscrupulous players will take advantage of it.
It does suck though. I don't like Avilo, and I enjoy seeing him lose, but I want him to lose against legitimate players. There have been a few occasions where I believe he really was getting sniped. However, he's blamed many of his losses to being sniped, too many, so it's hard to feel pity or support him when he creates a thread like this.
But let's be honest here. Avilo doesn't play to win. He doesn't play to improve. He plays because watching him is entertaining. So whether or not he is playing a barcode, and regardless if that barcode is sniping him, Blizzard will do absolutely nothing. Nada. They won't implement some fancy cloaking system with keys. They won't put an interface to add notes on a player you just played (that's actually a good idea). And they certainly won't ban barcodes from ladder.
all koreans play with lllllllll -_- u wanna ban them all ? you made alot of enemies with your behavior so people will do this to you no matter what their name is its sad but thats the way people react but u cant have for ur own good say like "ok thats forbidden now" when it hits 99,9% of people who have nothng to do with the problem u have
also i bet most lllll u play are not snipers ... i play vs a shitton of lllll and i dont stream so its still common to have such enemies
On September 12 2017 05:35 Psychobabas wrote: Kripparian from Hearthstone had a group of people that constantly streamsniped him. He gathered lots of proof and Blizzard actually banned them all.
I want to clarify that in the SC2 community we usually distinguish between knowing when to hit find match to get a particular opponent (sniping) and watching your opponent's stream while you play against him (ghosting). Sniping isn't totally fair play, since you're gaming the matchmaking system, but it's not really harmful enough to be frowned upon. I myself sniped Hyun when he was 70-0 or whatever on NA. Ghosting, on the other hand, is straight-up cheating and is never okay. I'm not really sure that there are many Hearthstone snipers that aren't ghosting so the two are pretty much synonymous in that community. But in SC2, many people are thrilled to have a chance to play against certain players, so they snipe, close the stream, and then give it their best fair shot.
I have a question, coming just from my ignorance from the subject (I specify it because I have no intention to flame, just to profit from the experience of streamers / pro-players posting here):
is it possible to avoid the "ghosting" problem by setting a long delay time for the stream?
This seems an easy solution, so I guess that it does not work very well and I'm wandering why. Maybe sniping is still possible with some guessing, but ghosting should be much harder with a ˜5min delay. Does this impact the quality of the stream (e.g. more difficult to interact with the chat and the people watching)?
thanks!
Yeah it solves the problem but as you said, career streamers will make more money by having no delay and actively interacting with their viewers. Better to keep the delay low so you can be interactive and use your exposure to cheaters as a way to generate drama and entertainment. A progamer that's just being nice and sharing some practice with the world can set a long delay and forget that they're even streaming.
but if u have a low delay to interact with the fans, is winning rly the most importent stuff then ? isnt the sniping not just one more "interaction" with ur fans ? when it is so easy to put the delay high enough so its not a problem anymore i think wanting to have "interaction" just means u have to deal with people watching ur stream while playing you there can never be a solution to that.
and as u said HUGE difference between sniping (i did sometimes) and ghosting (which is cheating but basicly unproovable but still disgusting)
On September 12 2017 11:09 Autumn22 wrote: THIS is broken game design. Certainly Blizzard did not envision a ranked leaderboard where half the names are IIIIIIIII. But the incentive system they created by allowing players to have identical looking names forced this on the players.
Rofl, you mean like how they were exactly in BW's predecessor? Strong point broseph.
All of this whining is just that - whining. Git gud.
With bw being watchable again, less people will be watching sc2 once they realise how much greater bw is as a spectator sport, barcodes only make the choice to watch day to day, regular run of the mill sc2 streams or flash/larva or bw tournament vods that much easier.
i'm not sure how banning barcode names will help. Everyone will start playing under the "aaaaaaaaaaa" name. Barcodes were a way to create unrecognizable name when it wasnt possible to choose the name that is already registered. (so multiple combinations of "I" and "l" would create a lot of similar but different names). In SC2 afaik you can make a thousand of accounts with the same name.
The solution is very simple. Unique IDs. Up the character limit from 12 to maybe 18 and allow spacing. Same letter more than 2 times in a row is not allowed ( lll or III not allowed)
Lol this issue only applies to some players who stick to one single play style, refuse to admit other players are outplaying them when they lose and blame balance when they can't beat everyone with this one single play style.
However I do find it hilarious when some low league players use barcode and kachinsky portrait pretending to be badass but turns out to be really bad.
I'm leaving games against random. You can leave games against barcode players. It's your choice, Avilo. Forcing rules because you doesn't like something is stupid. Since we cannot have unique names every barcode player can name themselves aviIo and you have the same problem, what then, we will ban all versions of Avilos?
can't you guys learn to play multiple races as efficiently as one another to abuse the meta that way and get even better at the 'game' as a whole? i would have thought that would be the next evolution of starcraft.... it hasn't happened yet tho right? race picking based on meta, map, players etc. or maybe you have to select your race before queueing ? i guess that must be the case...and the only available option is to random. well, i think that's a shame, and race picking should be a thing. more skill to the skillful
On September 12 2017 12:09 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: Guys, I was playing a game of Texas hold em, and I accidentally dropped my 2 cards face up.
I don't think it was fair that my opponents saw my cards, and they should have been forced to look away as soon as they realized my cards were exposed.
Sure, you could tell me that I should have hidden my cards better, but it's not fair that they had eyes to see what I did.
Ok I could get banned/warned for my comment above, so I will add something meaningful, at least I think it will be.
Barcodes have been around during BW. Those crazy Koreans were so secretive of their builds, so they created barcodes.
That is the original purpose.
Now creating barcode accounts for the sole purpose of stream-sniping/ghosting on the ladder is deplorable, but I don't think Blizzard really cares. However, for tournament purposes, barcodes are banned, and streaming during WCS qualifiers requires a stream delay anyways.
It sucks to see barcodes, but I think we need to put down the stick and let the dead mule rot.
Strawman. WHat would be more analogous to a poker situation is you're playing at a live event.
You sit at the table and people can see and know who you are. But there is one guy at the table that gets to have his identity hidden from every other player at the table before the game even starts.
He knows who you are, you have no idea who he is. He has a clear unfair advantage in this situation because he has an informational advantage that isn't supposed to exist in that situation. You all are sitting at the table and went to play a game of poker and the information you have to give up to be allowed to play is who you are.
It is clearly an unfair advantage that one person gets to hide all information about themselves, while the players that are not using barcodes have information known about them before the game begins.
Even in my OP i mentioned that i knew some people are just gonna say "just use a barcode yourself!" which really does nothing to address the problem.
On September 12 2017 13:06 RenSC2 wrote: Autumn22 has a good solution with creating notes. After a game, you should be able to make a note on a player. When the loading screen pops up, if you've added a note for that player, it should be shown.
For Avilo in the meantime, I'd recommend not being so predictable. Mech as you have X% of the time, but throw in some other builds, especially aggressive ones, so that nobody is blind countering you on name alone.
Something like this would actually solve the problem really easily if you could do that. That's actually a really good idea. Then it doesn't matter if someone is on a barcode, because you'd be able to know "oh i played this barcode before, he's this guy." Then there is no unfair advantage, well, except the very first game that you played them of course and had no idea who the barcode was.
Still...i have not seen one good argument in this thread that barcodes do not give an unfair information advantage on the ladder.
On September 12 2017 17:02 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: i'm not sure how banning barcode names will help. Everyone will start playing under the "aaaaaaaaaaa" name. Barcodes were a way to create unrecognizable name when it wasnt possible to choose the name that is already registered. (so multiple combinations of "I" and "l" would create a lot of similar but different names). In SC2 afaik you can make a thousand of accounts with the same name.
That's true. When myself or other people talk about barcodes i think we're referring to any type of username that could be considered similar to a barcode, including stuff like "aaaaaaaaaaaa" where everyone just arbitrarily decides that's the new barcode. There should be some way to idenfity one aaaa from another aaaa when the game begins.
On September 12 2017 12:09 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: Guys, I was playing a game of Texas hold em, and I accidentally dropped my 2 cards face up.
I don't think it was fair that my opponents saw my cards, and they should have been forced to look away as soon as they realized my cards were exposed.
Sure, you could tell me that I should have hidden my cards better, but it's not fair that they had eyes to see what I did.
Ok I could get banned/warned for my comment above, so I will add something meaningful, at least I think it will be.
Barcodes have been around during BW. Those crazy Koreans were so secretive of their builds, so they created barcodes.
That is the original purpose.
Now creating barcode accounts for the sole purpose of stream-sniping/ghosting on the ladder is deplorable, but I don't think Blizzard really cares. However, for tournament purposes, barcodes are banned, and streaming during WCS qualifiers requires a stream delay anyways.
It sucks to see barcodes, but I think we need to put down the stick and let the dead mule rot.
Strawman. WHat would be more analogous to a poker situation is you're playing at a live event.
You sit at the table and people can see and know who you are. But there is one guy at the table that gets to have his identity hidden from every other player at the table before the game even starts.
He knows who you are, you have no idea who he is. He has a clear unfair advantage in this situation because he has an informational advantage that isn't supposed to exist in that situation. You all are sitting at the table and went to play a game of poker and the information you have to give up to be allowed to play is who you are.
It is clearly an unfair advantage that one person gets to hide all information about themselves, while the players that are not using barcodes have information known about them before the game begins.
Even in my OP i mentioned that i knew some people are just gonna say "just use a barcode yourself!" which really does nothing to address the problem.
When you really think about it, how is it a problem? I don't think real pros care that much. Like do you think Rogue and sOs care who their opponent are when they launch their 7k MMR ladder game? No, they just win the game.
It would be unfair not to know who you play against in a COMPETITION, but in training it's just annoying at best. Plus you can easily find out who you are / were playing against.
And you should be glad that people even play against you, I know I wouldn't bother to waste time since I don't like playing against boring styles in TvT. I think that if people didn't like trolling you on ladder when you are streaming that much, you would have almost nobody to play with.
There is a really simple solution for your problem, play random. it doesn't matter if you don't know who your opponent is if he doesn't know what your race is.
Strictly from a professional players perspective I think Barcodes has a place in e-sports and various ladders that is fair.
Barcodes is not so much about taking advantage of that your opponent doesn't know you. I'd say it's the opposite of that. You are protecting yourself from letting up valueable information about your style of play while being able to practice against a wide range of opponents. At least when I was active during 2010-2012 that was my reason for using barcodes. There's no telling that if you are practicing for a tournament and have to resort to ladder, that it'll be used against you later on.. But it's the beauty of the sport. mindgames, metagame, styles etc. If deploy counter-measurements to hide my playstyle prior to a tournament, that's just part of competition and the nature of it.
But Starcraft is a game of limited information and I think most of us can agree on that you can win games based off calculated risks that have factored in the opponents playstyle. Is that a risk you wanna expose yourself to (more than necessary) if you are making a living of the game? I'd say no.
The argument about custom games is relevant but not really entirely valid. First of all, the range of players that you'd have custom games against are probably the very same players you'd play in a live tournament setting. There's no telling what you are risking if you practice prepared builds and what not against them. They can use that information against you if you had to play in a tournament.
Also the ladder, which I touched upon above, offers you a wider range of opponents. It's not just the very best, it's the semi-pros and decent non-fulltimers and what not. It gives you a better sample size I guess.
From a streaming perspective this is a tougher nut to crack. But here's my take on it.
Again, Starcraft is a game of limited information where knowing a certain players style can be the missing puzzle piece that allows you to flat out blind counter them (at the risk that they play something entirely different which is why it'll always be a risk).
When you choose to stream yourself playing Starcraft you are willingly giving that advantage up. I.e. the advantage of not having multitudes of people knowing about your play style. When you choose to stream yourself you are also making a choice of being a public person and you can't really demand that you should be able to know every opponents identity just because you choose to reveal yours.
The way I see it is you have two options. You either accept the fact that, because of you choosing to always display your playstyle, you'll sometimes be at disadvantage. Option number two (which I think Flash is a great example of from Brood War) is that you make sure that your style can't be predicted as easily. Sure most people know Flash favours solid and standard play, but once in a while he'll opt for an entirely different playstyle just to keep his opponents honest.
EDIT:
Just to be clear, the streaming perspective is in the sense of that they just snipe you as in que when you que. If they are actually watching the stream while playing you, then that's just cheating and it's obviously not fair.
Well-known personalities and professionals will always suffer an information disadvantage against anonymous players, regardless of whether they use a barcode or not. In fact, barcodes are what these very players turn to to mitigate this.
As for lower-ranked players, any information advantage a random ladder barcode will get from knowing which of the other hundreds of random ladder players players he is playing against is negligible and can be more than compensated for by simply getting better at the game
But it kinda begs the question: why dont you just take it upon yourself to negate the information advantage that you may be conceding by making up a barcode yourself?
Furthermore I also believe that it is firmly on you to adapt your play to gain advantages over any opponent, even one that may have an idea of your play style going in. Mix it up, do little things different to keep opponents off balance, etc.
On September 12 2017 21:34 merz wrote: Strictly from a professional players perspective...
thx for taking the time to post this. i suspect Blizzard realizes this and took into account ur perspective when choosing to remain with the status quo. of course, this won't stop the OP for screaming that Blizzard is not "listening to the players" because his specific requests are not being addressed even when it turns out these requests are bad for the game.
Is there really that big of a difference between a random unidentifiable smurf id and a barcode? While I am not really qualified to offer up an authoritative position on this, I just don't see it as a big enough issue to require action from Blizzard.
If it isn't |||||||| then it will be some other unidentifiable string of characters, no?
I agree with Avilo. I don't think barcodes should be allowed. The argument that you could use some other username falls flat. I can't put a trademark or registered trademark on my username, it's a character that's not allowed. But barcodes are allowed? It makes no sense.
Personally it doesn't affect me, but there's something called empathy. You use it when you want to see something from someone else's perspective. If you don't have empathy, that's something else. That's called sociopathic, that's when you can't see things from anyone's perspective other than your own. Sometimes it's combined with enjoying seeing other people miserable. That's called sociopathology
Whether the solution is to ban barcodes or to allow Unique Id's or notes to be written/displayed on players u face, i think something should be done to get rid of the anonymity.
Its like using a chat program but always setting your status to Invisible. Sure you can do that but it defeats the purpose of having friends on a chat program.
I can kinda see the same idea here within SC2. The point behind having player names is so everyone knows who you are. Its not someones Social Security Number. Its not someones home address. Its their player name & for reasons already stated, i do think everyone should have an unique identifier. Just my 2 cents
Imagine if someone smurfed as avilo in GM and build to blind counter his opponent who's almost definitely going to go for an anti-mech build. That would be genius
On September 13 2017 01:17 OPL3SA2 wrote: I agree with Avilo. I don't think barcodes should be allowed. The argument that you could use some other username falls flat. I can't put a trademark or registered trademark on my username, it's a character that's not allowed. But barcodes are allowed? It makes no sense.
Personally it doesn't affect me, but there's something called empathy. You use it when you want to see something from someone else's perspective. If you don't have empathy, that's something else. That's called sociopathic, that's when you can't see things from anyone's perspective other than your own. Sometimes it's combined with enjoying seeing other people miserable. That's called sociopathology
On September 12 2017 23:09 Indrajit wrote: I get the spirit of your argument
But it kinda begs the question: why dont you just take it upon yourself to negate the information advantage that you may be conceding by making up a barcode yourself?
Furthermore I also believe that it is firmly on you to adapt your play to gain advantages over any opponent, even one that may have an idea of your play style going in. Mix it up, do little things different to keep opponents off balance, etc.
I literally even mentioned this in OP and other posts - if your solution is to make a barcode yourself...then you are acknowledging it's a problem and gives an unfair advantage!
On September 12 2017 23:09 Indrajit wrote: I get the spirit of your argument
But it kinda begs the question: why dont you just take it upon yourself to negate the information advantage that you may be conceding by making up a barcode yourself?
Furthermore I also believe that it is firmly on you to adapt your play to gain advantages over any opponent, even one that may have an idea of your play style going in. Mix it up, do little things different to keep opponents off balance, etc.
I literally even mentioned this in OP and other posts - if your solution is to make a barcode yourself...then you are acknowledging it's a problem and gives an unfair advantage!
Not really. Whether the "unfair" advantage is real or imagined, making a barcode would at least put you on equal footing in your mind, and all the people who don't care can continue not caring.
On September 13 2017 02:29 avilo wrote: I literally even mentioned this in OP and other posts - if your solution is to make a barcode yourself...then you are acknowledging it's a problem and gives an unfair advantage!
That is not necessarily correct. How I see it, it is more like: 1.) Yes, it does give an advantage (sometimes at least). Nobody denies that. 2.) It's debatable if that is unfair. Most people think the advantage is so slight that it doesn't even matter.
And even if for arguments sake we invest the ressources to analyze the problem:
The current situation is the following in SIMPLIFIED terms: 1.) Some people prefer their opponent not knowing who they are playing (hence Barcode). 2.) Some people want their opponent who they are playing (hence regular name).
There is a choice for everybody. Hence fair.
The changes you suggest would turn the choice around. 1.) People can choose to not know who they are playing. 2.) People can choose to know who they are playing.
Both are viable scenarios. I, for example, prefer the first option as it is for personal reasons (e.g. that internet and anonomity yadayadayada) You prefer the second scenario for your reasons which you have named.
So in conclusion. The current situation might be problematic for you. However if your suggested changes (banning all Barcodes), which I find quite drastic went through, it would be problematic for other people.
So can you provide reasons which totally justify your position over the other?
I kind of agree with Avilo at some point but there are some flaws about it
1) Like someone said this affect only 5-1% of the player base so it is not a big deal TBH and most of us couldn't really care unless our "heroes" are being troubled by it
2) It doesn't really matter if others change their nickname because your gameplay is the main problem, I mean, if you don't change builds they simply will know what to expect, and even if you read Snute or IIIIII you can be Hive Rushed with Ultras or Broods not because Snute does that but because it is even more abusable that you won't expect it from it but YOU WILL USE YOUR SAME BUILD ALWAYS
So at the end of the day I'm sorry Avilo but it is worthless and you should do what I said in point 2, use that as an advantage of people expecting something from you and then surprise them (It worked for me in my clan when Proxy Gating, they never expected something like that so I mix it sometimes).
I think we all have the freedom to chose what to do and SC2 is not a game of "I am good against that build" but mostly "I am good at adapting with my strategies", that is the reason also I dislike so much korean tournaments sometimes, because players prepare for the others instead of focusing in their own gameplay whereas DreamHack or IEM are not like that and you see how really good a player is overall.
In ladder it is even more necessary to be good vs anything thrown at you instead knowing you can get free points from few players doing the same build over and over and never scouting since you know what is coming.
On September 12 2017 06:04 Charoisaur wrote: Who cares about ladder? Ladder is just there to practice, the only time when ladder rankings are important are for the WCS challenger competition and barcodes are banned there.
Dude, ladder is for making your mmr-shaped e-penis as big as possible. it's serious business
Dangit I wanted to say this but someone else beat me to it.
Really this is just another thread from avilo where he demands that everyone do what he demands because he can't come to terms with how good or bad he is as a player and he needs something else to blame for his faults. That, and/or he doesn't know how to grasp and deal with his frustrations so he comes here and makes another thread about something that really doesn't hold much water as a(n unhealthy, in my opinion) way to vent.
I've played dozens of P00pf34st420s, Killers, Machines, Cerebrates, Thralls, Raynors, and barcodes over the years and if I face one of them in the same day or same week I can usually figure out whether or not I've played them before in the time it takes the match to load by looking at their rank and their portrait and taking a second to think. But, it doesn't matter much because I know that matchmaking in SC2 is pretty damn good and I know the match is going to be fair regardless of who it is or isn't.
On September 12 2017 09:15 avilo wrote: Personally, i'm mostly an SC2 person that's stream-focused atm rather than pro-gamer focused or tournament focused. I've used a delay before on my stream two or so times in the past, using a 5 minute delay.
---
People seem to be de-railing the thread a little bit talking about stream sniping which was just a side-note compared to the main discussion point i wanted to bring up which were barcode accounts themselves and whether or not it's fair for people to be able to use them on the ladder.
I think there's an argument for your first point here. In reality most people watch you for your (extremely poor, childish, hateful) attitude, not because you play StarCraft. Honestly, you could really thank a lot of the people who use barcodes, Swarm Hosts, snipe you on ladder, so on, because they make you act a certain way that most people tuning into your stream or clicking on reddit posts want to see, which ends up getting you more views and more people letting you do whatever it is that you do for a living.
To the other point I have quoted, they aren't totally separate things. In your argument for why barcodes should be eliminated you bring up a lot of points that people who have advocated for or caused drama over stream sniping and ghosting have made in the past, so it isn't that tangential to the topics at hand.
If people can't deal with not knowing who their opponent is, what they ate for breakfast, who they're dating, where they live, and exactly what build order they are doing in this specific match, then stop playing. StarCraft is all about not knowing anything and having to work for the information you can get in each individual match. If you face a player with a memorable username who does the same build every time and you counter them, then that's a bonus, an exception, not the standard. You're expected to never know what your opponent is doing in StarCraft.
Barcodes have never been a real problem for anyone except for the people who have nothing else to complain about. Korean players with multiple accounts use them all the time to get a few anonymous experiences on ladder for different practice they might not get otherwise. A lot of players around the world of all skill levels have also used barcode/anonymous usernames as a way to combat their ladder anxiety, something that I see as having a much bigger positive impact on the game than anything else here. More reasons why barcodes are totally fine, if not very good for the game, despite your feelings on it.
you can't use barcodes for actual ladder competitions like WCS challenger or ladder heroes, other than that ladder is just for practice and banning barcodes makes it much less attractive for high level players to practice on ladder. less high level players on ladder -> harder for people outside the "old boys club" to get high level practice
also, there's nothing special about barcode names. every single player could make their name "avilo" or "pokebunny" and have the same effect, the "problem" is that names are not unique on sc2.
On September 13 2017 12:28 Pokebunny wrote: don't agree
you can't use barcodes for actual ladder competitions like WCS challenger or ladder heroes, other than that ladder is just for practice and banning barcodes makes it much less attractive for high level players to practice on ladder. less high level players on ladder -> harder for people outside the "old boys club" to get high level practice
also, there's nothing special about barcode names. every single player could make their name "avilo" or "pokebunny" and have the same effect, the "problem" is that names are not unique on sc2.
Exactly. Agree 100% w/ Poke. If the issue is that "I don't know what someone will do because they're a barcode" - it means that 1) you feel like everyone should be predictable enough to know that they're going to be doing the exact same thing every time.
Sure, people have builds that they're more comfortable with than others, but add some spice to your builds.
All-in-all, blizzard hasn't determined that this is an issue (or they would have fixed it), but they decided that the ability to name yourself whatever you want is more important than people having the same name. It's also extremely difficult to put this genie back in the bottle, since there are so many accounts that already HAVE those names.
Typically, if things aren't patched out after the development team has been made aware of them, then you should consider the option that what you're complaining about isn't a bug.
On September 13 2017 01:17 OPL3SA2 wrote: I agree with Avilo. I don't think barcodes should be allowed. The argument that you could use some other username falls flat. I can't put a trademark or registered trademark on my username, it's a character that's not allowed. But barcodes are allowed? It makes no sense.
Personally it doesn't affect me, but there's something called empathy. You use it when you want to see something from someone else's perspective. If you don't have empathy, that's something else. That's called sociopathic, that's when you can't see things from anyone's perspective other than your own. Sometimes it's combined with enjoying seeing other people miserable. That's called sociopathology
Ryan
What on earth? We all get that avilo and several low post count accounts don't like barcodes. We can empathize with feeling bad. The issue is, that for most of us, we choose to get over certain things.
If you feel full sympathy and cave to everyone else's feelings 100% of the time, how on earth can you ever get anything done? You'll spend your entire day sitting around inside, because you might accidentally cut someone off in traffic, or you might do a bad job at work.
Here's an idea (don't know if given before by somebody else): show an id in the menus and have it public in game history. At least for other players who stream, you'll be able to easily identify them.
On September 13 2017 13:08 rockslave wrote: Here's an idea (don't know if given before by somebody else): show an id in the menus and have it public in game history. At least for other players who stream, you'll be able to easily identify them.
How do you think that they would be able to know who is an SC2 streamer?
I think it would be fine to potentially show a record vs. that opponent (and the last time played), or something.
So it would say, "rockslave: 3-0 vs. reneg this season. Last match: 1 hour ago"
On September 13 2017 13:08 rockslave wrote: Here's an idea (don't know if given before by somebody else): show an id in the menus and have it public in game history. At least for other players who stream, you'll be able to easily identify them.
How do you think that they would be able to know who is an SC2 streamer?
I think it would be fine to potentially show a record vs. that opponent (and the last time played), or something.
So it would say, "rockslave: 3-0 vs. reneg this season. Last match: 1 hour ago"
That and the idea of having notes for players that you would enter yourself and that would show during the launch screen are probably the 2 best ideas !
How could anyone stream snipe avilo? I watched Noregret and Neeb attempt to stream snipe him for like 2 hours and they determined that it was near impossible because his games last so long and after he finishes a match he waits forever to queue up another match.
@Clevername02: They just tried it for fun, if you really want it not too hard.
About the Thread topic I was actually impressed this game had such an set "smurf"-name. But I do think it should be smurf/practice.
So altho this will sound very silly I could see a system where something of following happens when you create a barcode.
1. Your account can't get into Grandmaster or 2A. Your account wount show up in ladder lists (you can get GM and everything but the list of top 100 GMs will have no barcodes) or 2B. Barcodes can only play against other barcodes + accounts that has checked a box that they don't mind getting matched against barcodes.
Nothing will happen with this subject but thought could brainstorm alittle on it anyway.
Is there more than thousands ways to hide your true ID? Yes...
Are there barcodes in other games? Yes...
Is there topic like this in other games? No...
I mean I already got banned here twice for expressing my opinions on Avilo so I will keep this short. You are just a player, you are not voice of terrans, you are not imporant enough for ppl to wait hours and hours to snipe you. Also you can hide when you are searching and just interatct with chat instead.
But honestly you blame everyone for being hacker, cheater, stream sniper... Myself included, you were offracing zerg and tried to do 2base lurker timing which were scouted and confirmed by my scouting lings and overlord, who were in the most stardard spot on that map (I belive it was overgrowth). I Obviously countered you with roach timing with +2 and you called me words in game and probably on stream aswell.. and i was just a guy laddering on NA for fun on "BARCODE"... So where am I going with this... you can use this ban logic on almost everyone you play.
Something like hidden account or a barcode is a great tool for players preparing for a tournament etc. On YOUR mmr there is no way those barcodes are doing that.
It's not like Avilo would change his style if he knew who the opponent was, or even if they told him their build order! Barcodes are useful for pros to hide themselves when practicing for competitions, that is an important enough reason to keep them.
Still...i have not seen one good argument in this thread that barcodes do not give an unfair information advantage on the ladder.
are u fucking serious?
.....
being terse here because this is such a non issue it's sad:
1) do general ladder games reward anything other than general practice? >no
2) if lacking the name of the player is what is "apparently" such a loss of information that it is losing you games then perhaps you are doing something else fundamentally wrong... like... relying on such information in the first place instead of just playing better yourself... or b) are approaching every game incorrectly (b/o etc).
>tough luck
3) in cases where ladder DOES matter (wcs) - are barcodes an issue?
>no - when you play ladder qualifier you are locked into that qualifying name and account for the event season.
tl:dr - tough shit; you're losing general ladder games. it literally means NOTHING other than that person is outplaying you.
If this 'unfair' advantage means that much to you, maybe you are doing something else wrong?
As nony has stated, ghosting is obviously cheating. That is clearly something else entirely. also as other people mentioned: ...........there is a way to find out who barcodes are.... -_-;;
edit: was about to just start picking apart the main post; but i honestly can't be bothered to waste more time. these posts are such drivel that i find it dumbfounding they continue to pop up.
Asside from the points made by Avilo and others who I may or may not agree with I believe the ubiquitous barcode that players use to hide their identity goes against the spirit of the Ladder's competitive nature. For one, who wants to look at a leaderboard (which is what the Ladder actually is) and see...
The entire point of the thing is to provide a FUN and COMPETITIVE venue for players of many caliber a place to compete for ranks. That it's not a professional tournament is like saying going down to your local bowling alley to participate in a their bowling league is irrelevant to those players because it's not the PBA championship. Even though it's unlikely professional players will be among participant, the players still care about the results. If they didn't, they wouldn't have shown up to begin with.
Likewise, if you don't care about your personal rank among your peers, to the point where hiding your identity among many other hidden identities, is part of the process, then why bother ranking anyone at all? If you don't know where among your peers you actually compare, then what's the point? Just play in an unranked queue for practice where nobody knows who they are playing nor care's who their peers are they have won or lost against.
That said, it seems that the only reason to barcode your player name is to hide your identity in order to obtain some advantage, whether that be in the game you are currently playing or in the grander scheme where pro players do not want their competition in tournaments to be able to refer to and analyze their gameplay, habits, tells, etc... Avilo's comparison to Poker is exceptionally relevant in this case because much like in poker, all else being equal, knowing your opponent is more important than your mechanical ability to play the game.
On September 13 2017 12:28 Pokebunny wrote: don't agree
you can't use barcodes for actual ladder competitions like WCS challenger or ladder heroes, other than that ladder is just for practice and banning barcodes makes it much less attractive for high level players to practice on ladder. less high level players on ladder -> harder for people outside the "old boys club" to get high level practice
also, there's nothing special about barcode names. every single player could make their name "avilo" or "pokebunny" and have the same effect, the "problem" is that names are not unique on sc2.
Exactly. Agree 100% w/ Poke. If the issue is that "I don't know what someone will do because they're a barcode" - it means that 1) you feel like everyone should be predictable enough to know that they're going to be doing the exact same thing every time.
Sure, people have builds that they're more comfortable with than others, but add some spice to your builds.
All-in-all, blizzard hasn't determined that this is an issue (or they would have fixed it), but they decided that the ability to name yourself whatever you want is more important than people having the same name. It's also extremely difficult to put this genie back in the bottle, since there are so many accounts that already HAVE those names.
Typically, if things aren't patched out after the development team has been made aware of them, then you should consider the option that what you're complaining about isn't a bug.
On September 13 2017 01:17 OPL3SA2 wrote: I agree with Avilo. I don't think barcodes should be allowed. The argument that you could use some other username falls flat. I can't put a trademark or registered trademark on my username, it's a character that's not allowed. But barcodes are allowed? It makes no sense.
Personally it doesn't affect me, but there's something called empathy. You use it when you want to see something from someone else's perspective. If you don't have empathy, that's something else. That's called sociopathic, that's when you can't see things from anyone's perspective other than your own. Sometimes it's combined with enjoying seeing other people miserable. That's called sociopathology
Ryan
What on earth? We all get that avilo and several low post count accounts don't like barcodes. We can empathize with feeling bad. The issue is, that for most of us, we choose to get over certain things.
If you feel full sympathy and cave to everyone else's feelings 100% of the time, how on earth can you ever get anything done? You'll spend your entire day sitting around inside, because you might accidentally cut someone off in traffic, or you might do a bad job at work.
The issue is not that you know what they will do necessarily. The issue is there is an informational advantage/disadvantage.
The person playing on the barcode has an information advantage that they do not deserve. The person on the non-barcode has an information DISadvantage that they do not deserve.
The barcoded player has more information at their disposal before the game begins than the player not on the barcode.
I still have not seen any argument against this in this entire thread, so have most people reached the consensus that you are indeed getting an unfair advantage from using a barcode on the ladder?
A ladder should not be rewarding players with advantages before the game begins over other players for simply making their username lllllllllllllllllllll or aaaaaaaaaaaa or any other equivalent. That is not fair play for a competitive ladder.
Perhaps an actual account identifier like a few people suggested in this thread would completely eliminate the problem because then even if you play llllllllllllllllllll you'd know "oh that's so and so it shows his ID."
And @kyo in this thread, saying "are you serious?" is not an argument that says anything against the apparently obvious truth that a barcode player is getting an information advantage before the game begins versus a non-barcoded player.
Can you or someone else come up with an argument that refutes it? Probably not because i don't think there is one. The only arguments people can really seem to make are whether or not they personally are OK with people getting an unfair advantage on the ladder via using a barcode account.
Apparently some people in this thread are perfectly fine with players getting an unfair advantage on the competitive ladder. Other people are apparently not fine with players getting an unfair advantage.
Others make light of the issue completely and simply "don't care" or think "it's a big deal." And the rest of some posts are people just simply going ad hominem which are basically worthless replies to read.
From most replies that i've seen, it feels like the people that do acknowledge using a barcode gives you an unfair advantage in terms of information disparity between yourself and the opponent...most of these replies are suggesting that blizzard make some way to identify barcodes either via a player ID, letting you make a note on them that shows in loading screen, or something of that nature.
The poker analogy is the best analogy for how being anonymous or on a barcode in SC2's case creates an unfair advantage. If you were playing at a poker table in real life, every player is there at the table, you see who they are, they can't hide their identity and come back to the table again as an unknown person.
If they were able to do that, it would create a massive advantage for them because they would come back to the poker table knowing who you are, what hands you like to play, how you like to play, your tendencies, tells, etc. Yet, you would have no idea this was the same guy at the table 5 minutes ago.
It's an informational disadvantage and breaks the competitive spirit of the game. It's the same way on the SC2 ladder with barcodes.
If Blizzard is going to not allow barcodes in competitive WCS and qualifiers, they certainly should not be allowing it on their competitive (?) ladder. As Zeniths above me posted - knowing your opponent in poker or SC2 is a huge fucking deal, and can have a huge effect on the game just having a few pieces of information over them.
People are really turning a blind eye here that think it's ok in a game as deep and psychological as SC2 to think it's fair to be able to use barcode accounts for a free information advantage on a competitive ladder. SC2 and SC1 have never only been about sheer mechanics or keyboard and mouse - probably over 50% of the game is your mind versus your opponent's and the psychology intertwined there.
p.s. again for all the posters going full ad hominem, the thread has nothing to do with stream sniping. When myself, you, your buddy, whoever is not streaming and gets on the ladder and plays versus a barcode streaming has nothing to do with the informational disadvantage you are playing the game at. This may not be as relevant in diamond and below, but in masters/GM it is especially relevant because you've probably played many of the same players multiple times or know who people are by their usernames.
Can you give me an example why this competitive ladder actually matters?
Because the only time ladder matters are qualifiers and there are barcodes forbidden thus all the other players have to use their nonbarcode account and they will play against barcodes too.
So the impact is pretty negligible.
So, excuse my ignorance, but do you or anyone else get money based on their rank, MMR or something else on daily basis? How is the competitive ladder so much important when it's not important at all. FFS ranked players play vs unranked!! That's how competitively valid it is. (unless Blizzard changed it in the last year and I seriously doubt it)
On September 13 2017 22:04 deacon.frost wrote: Can you give me an example why this competitive ladder actually matters?
Because the only time ladder matters are qualifiers and there are barcodes forbidden thus all the other players have to use their nonbarcode account and they will play against barcodes too.
So the impact is pretty negligible.
So, excuse my ignorance, but do you or anyone else get money based on their rank, MMR or something else on daily basis? How is the competitive ladder so much important when it's not important at all. FFS ranked players play vs unranked!! That's how competitively valid it is. (unless Blizzard changed it in the last year and I seriously doubt it)
Again, you don't make any argument contesting that barcodes give an unfair advantage to players. So you and others seem to acknowledge it's an unfair advantage, but you are either fine or in the "idc" camp of letting them stay on the ladder.
Whether you personally care whether a competitive ladder matters or not has nothing to do with the information disadvantage a player has when they play versus a barcode account.
Claiming it's negligible, or doesn't matter, or this that does not change the fact that barcodes give a free information advantage before the game begins.
The barcode knows who he is playing versus, the other player does not.
Now, if you want to go off on a tangent and make a thread about "Why does a competitive ladder matter?" that's perfectly fine i'm pretty sure everyone that has a teamliquid account can tell you why competition matters in a competitive e-sport, as well as why integrity and fairness matters.
Can you give me an example why this competitive ladder actually matters?
If it doesn't matter, then why play it or, more importantly, get upset about a suggested rule where you're username needs to be unique in order to promote a fair venue for competition?
It matter just as much as playing on your junior varsity team in high school, because it's something you have decided to participate in and it matters to those players. That you aren't a pro players in the GSL is irrelevant the the participants on the ladder who are competing for rank.
If it doesn't matter to you, or others, thats cool, don't play, but that doesn't diminish the relevance to those who do.
It is not an UNFAIR advantage. It is sometimes an advantage.
Would it be an unfair advantage if other people build units and attack me, because I want to play with only scvs? So the other guy should also play with only scvs?
Also other people do not want other people to know who they are playing against not because they want an advantage because they simply do not want others to know? And you don't respect this right in your arguments. So why should these people respect your claim?
My point is: you have valid point. I'm saying what is bothering you is exactly what other people like about this. If some people like a feature and some people do not is it that called an unfair advantage? Yes, we can discuss this. But if you only see your point, this does not make your position very credible.
On a sidenote: I also think it is an unfair advantage to use the username avilo, because this is such a hard name for me to remember. So if we would play on ladder I wouldn't know who I played. I think you should rename yourself to ADVJLK because then I think it's fair because I can remember this name. And no I can't be bothered with any new features like ticking players and anyways I would forget your playstyle if your name is avilo and not ADVJLK. Edit: To be clear: This is kinda like what your post appears like to some other people. And no it is not the fault of other people, but the way your post ist written.
On September 13 2017 21:52 avilo wrote: The barcoded player has more information at their disposal before the game begins than the player not on the barcode.
Now he hasn't. You are not obligated to play mech if your nickname is avilo. You have no in-game restrictions to your build orders based on whether you are playing with some nickname or another. So your predictability is your problem as a 1-sided non-diverse player. So technically there is no in-game advantage based on the identity information. Due to this argument this whole topic makes no sense.
Avilo your last reply makes sense, I see what youre saying and I agree that there is a disparity in relevant information when there is a barcode player involved.
However I still disagree that the solution would be to ban them. Like you can solve the problem yourself just by making an anonymous ID for yourself to use, wont this negate the information disparity?
My feeling is that even if these barcode accounts are banned then people will still seek to gain an edge and they will use ########## or aaaaaaaaaaa or etc, as mentioned previously in this thread and then were right back where we started
On September 13 2017 21:52 avilo wrote: The barcoded player has more information at their disposal before the game begins than the player not on the barcode.
Now he hasn't. You are not obligated to play mech if your nickname is avilo. You have no in-game restrictions to your build orders based on whether you are playing with some nickname or another. So your predictability is your problem as a 1-sided non-diverse player. So technically there is no in-game advantage based on the identity information. Due to this argument this whole topic makes no sense.
llllllllllllllllllllll VS Liquid Snute
Snute does not know who the barcode is. The barcode knows who snute is. The barcode player has an informational advantage before the game begins, whether you want to acknowledge this fact or not doesn't matter. Whether snute in this scenario wins or loses does not matter. The point is one player has an unfair advantage over another player on a competitive ladder, on a competitive e-sport where barcodes are also not allowed in qualifiers or tournaments as well.
So why are they allowed currently on the same competitive ladder?
On September 13 2017 21:52 avilo wrote: The barcoded player has more information at their disposal before the game begins than the player not on the barcode.
Now he hasn't. You are not obligated to play mech if your nickname is avilo. You have no in-game restrictions to your build orders based on whether you are playing with some nickname or another. So your predictability is your problem as a 1-sided non-diverse player. So technically there is no in-game advantage based on the identity information. Due to this argument this whole topic makes no sense.
everything avilo says makes perfect sense when you consider it from the perspective that he doesn't think the game is designed properly unless he can follow a series of color-by-numbers steps to get automatic wins by repeating a mech build order. and that's not a personal avilo slam, it's something i see from mech players all the time: while koreans are showing high-level, dominant, innovative mech play that involves adaptation, micro and harassment, mech terrans on ladder are unwilling to learn new moves nor credit their opponents for outpositioning them or deserving to win by executing an attack better than the mech player executes their defense
for some reason i can't understand many terrans (even bio terrans) want to think that every time they siege up a tank they're playing grandmaster chess with their units and there couldn't possibly be any intelligent counterplay. then when they lose games "tanks are useless and need to be buffed" or in this case "it's not fair that people know i play mech from my b.net tag, obviously i'm executing mech perfectly and i should never lose"
On September 13 2017 21:52 avilo wrote: The barcoded player has more information at their disposal before the game begins than the player not on the barcode.
Now he hasn't. You are not obligated to play mech if your nickname is avilo. You have no in-game restrictions to your build orders based on whether you are playing with some nickname or another. So your predictability is your problem as a 1-sided non-diverse player. So technically there is no in-game advantage based on the identity information. Due to this argument this whole topic makes no sense.
everything avilo says makes perfect sense when you consider it from the perspective that he doesn't think the game is designed properly unless he can follow a series of color-by-numbers steps to get automatic wins by repeating a mech build order. and that's not a personal avilo slam, it's something i see from mech players all the time: while koreans are showing high-level, dominant, innovative mech play that involves adaptation, micro and harassment, mech terrans on ladder are unwilling to learn new moves nor credit their opponents for outpositioning them or deserving to win by executing an attack better than the mech player executes their defense
for some reason i can't understand many terrans (even bio terrans) want to think that every time they siege up a tank they're playing grandmaster chess with their units and there couldn't possibly be any intelligent counterplay. then when they lose games "tanks are useless and need to be buffed" or in this case "it's not fair that people know i play mech from my b.net tag, obviously i'm executing mech perfectly and i should never lose"
On September 13 2017 21:52 avilo wrote: The barcoded player has more information at their disposal before the game begins than the player not on the barcode.
Now he hasn't. You are not obligated to play mech if your nickname is avilo. You have no in-game restrictions to your build orders based on whether you are playing with some nickname or another. So your predictability is your problem as a 1-sided non-diverse player. So technically there is no in-game advantage based on the identity information. Due to this argument this whole topic makes no sense.
llllllllllllllllllllll VS Liquid Snute
Snute does not know who the barcode is. The barcode knows who snute is. The barcode player has an informational advantage before the game begins, whether you want to acknowledge this fact or not doesn't matter. Whether snute in this scenario wins or loses does not matter. The point is one player has an unfair advantage over another player on a competitive ladder, on a competitive e-sport where barcodes are also not allowed in qualifiers or tournaments as well.
So why are they allowed currently on the same competitive ladder?
Nice ad hominem tho.
Again. Snute has no build order obligation or in-game restrictions because his opponent knows who he is. You haven't provided a single argument which proves that identity informational advantage gives any technical in-game advantage to a non-identified player. Repeating "he has an advantage" in every post doesn't make it an argument.
llllllllllllllllllllll(Z) VS llllllllllllllllllllll(R)
llllllllllllllllllllll(Z) does not know what llllllllllllllllllllll(R)'s rase is. llllllllllllllllllllll(R) knows who llllllllllllllllllllll(Z) is. The random player has an informational advantage before the game begins, whether you want to acknowledge this fact or not doesn't matter. Whether zerg in this scenario wins or loses does not matter. The point is one player has an unfair advantage over another player on a competitive ladder, on a competitive e-sport where random's are also not presented in qualifiers or tournaments as well.
So why are they allowed currently on the same competitive ladder? Ban all random players!
On September 13 2017 21:52 avilo wrote: The barcoded player has more information at their disposal before the game begins than the player not on the barcode.
Now he hasn't. You are not obligated to play mech if your nickname is avilo. You have no in-game restrictions to your build orders based on whether you are playing with some nickname or another. So your predictability is your problem as a 1-sided non-diverse player. So technically there is no in-game advantage based on the identity information. Due to this argument this whole topic makes no sense.
everything avilo says makes perfect sense when you consider it from the perspective that he doesn't think the game is designed properly unless he can follow a series of color-by-numbers steps to get automatic wins by repeating a mech build order. and that's not a personal avilo slam, it's something i see from mech players all the time: while koreans are showing high-level, dominant, innovative mech play that involves adaptation, micro and harassment, mech terrans on ladder are unwilling to learn new moves nor credit their opponents for outpositioning them or deserving to win by executing an attack better than the mech player executes their defense
for some reason i can't understand many terrans (even bio terrans) want to think that every time they siege up a tank they're playing grandmaster chess with their units and there couldn't possibly be any intelligent counterplay. then when they lose games "tanks are useless and need to be buffed" or in this case "it's not fair that people know i play mech from my b.net tag, obviously i'm executing mech perfectly and i should never lose"
Ad hominem, does not address thread topic.
Ah yes the good old fallacy fallacy. I called fallacy first, I win.
It addressed the thread topic insofar as pointing out the topic does not deserve discussion.
If you put half as much effort into your play as you do into complaining on TeamLiquid you would do better, even against stream snipers and barcodes, I promise.
And @kyo in this thread, saying "are you serious?" is not an argument that says anything against the apparently obvious truth that a barcode player is getting an information advantage before the game begins versus a non-barcoded player.
Can you or someone else come up with an argument that refutes it? Probably not because i don't think there is one. The only arguments people can really seem to make are whether or not they personally are OK with people getting an unfair advantage on the ladder via using a barcode account.
do u have some sort of reading problem here? I literally made it as straight forward as I could. if you're going to sit here and spam on TL instead of whine on your stream then at least do people the favor of reading their comments before you reply with something idiotic. you're putting forth an emotive argument that literally none of the top players actually really care about. people who wanna play custom games for practice already do that, and in KR many of them just grind ladder/verify with the 3rd party sites if they're interested in who they played. there is literally no issues.
to be clear; i don't "refute" your argument because it is dubious. i struggle to understand what goes through your mind when you make these threads, or spend hours replying to people about such random things because u dont win every game on ur stream.
lets think of an example following your idea, we can even use BW to exemplify how stupid this is:
okay, so u have flash and u playing broodwar together. u r playing on a barcode and flash has no idea who u r. u r telling me that because flash has an "information disadvantage" based on your name alone that it is such a "huge disadvantage" that he can "potentially" lose to you because he doesnt kno who u r??? (.... r u... serious...?)
ya... ok....
Here is the short of it; people play ladder for general practice. that's what you get regardless of whether you know someone's name or not. whatever other ethical or 'codified' shit you try to attach to it is your own baggage and not blizzards. i mean, can u even imagine if due to your own opinion everyone who played sc2 was required to have specific, clear names identifying who they are because "oh noooo~~ if you don't know this guys name you're just dead already!!~~~~~ booo hoooo"
here is a much better, contrasting idea;
maybe get better at the game. maybe dont worry about who u r playing... maybe... u lose because... your builds are awful and u have no clue what you are doing...????
what do u think ur winrate on a barcode would be versus neeb in a bo30? how about any of the non-koreans going to blizzcon? do you get the point?
Can we please ban the Username Avilo from ladder? People expect a one-dimensional mech player when they see the name; thus granting an advantage when the "Avilo" plays bio.
In my extensive history playing on both barcode and non-barcode accounts, I have consistently reached higher MMR peaks on my main account than on my barcode, even when i was playing the same and vetoing the same maps on both. Perhaps it would give more advantage to some players, but I think most players would actually say that I am a player that would benefit significantly from barcoding since my playstyle is somewhat unique among high level terrans. Not going to make the argument that it's not an advantage at all, but in my experience (have been playing regularly on both barcode and non-barcode accounts for over a year) it does not turn out that way.
A lot of people and some streamers have shown their hate to this barcode thing,but I don't think there is a way to solve the problem. Right now, The best way to deal with it is to name yourself barcode too ,so they don't have that unfair advantage you are talking about
Snute does not know what skins the barcode uses. The barcode knows what skins snute uses. The barcode player has an informational advantage before the game begins, whether you want to acknowledge this fact or not doesn't matter. Whether snute in this scenario wins or loses does not matter. The point is one player has an unfair advantage over another player on a competitive ladder, on a competitive e-sport where skins are also not allowed in qualifiers or tournaments as well.
So why are they allowed currently on the same competitive ladder?
I'll also just add that I honestly prefer playing against barcodes as I think it's better practice to not have your playstyle biased by your expectations of your opponent so that you can learn better. For example, against NoRegreT I would always SCV scout and play cautiously, but that can build bad habits where you rely on that information to counter unconventional play, when you never know what your opponent might do. Or another example, if I relied on the knowledge that avilo plays mech to beat his mech play, that could form bad habits and I might easily lose games were he to play bio.
You simply cannot ban barcodes from ladder, as long as people try to mask their identities for whatever reason they have, they will find a way to do so... When you ban barcodes, what keeps people from agreeing to name themselves all alike with the same portraits?
Being able to make (colored) notes for players you've previously encountered similar to poker would make a lot more sense, but it won't give you 100% certainty, just an assumption based on your limited experience playing that person.
at the start of this thread i had almost no opinion on the barcode thing. after reading all the discussion by some pretty smart guys who know what they are talking about ... i think Blizzard should leave the barcode accounts alone.
So in esscence, since ad hominem is being thrown around a lot, we're basically debating whether being anonymous gives an unfair advantage or not. This is a complicated question with no direct answer. The advantage relies on the presumption that - unless I mask my identity - the real identity of my opppnent will give away something about his style of play. This however, is not always true. Because even though a player displays his true identity it might tell you nothing about his style of play either because you simply havent played the guy before or you cant remember anything specific in his style of play that could benefit you.
This is even more true for the majority of the player base (those who arent GM) since they are even less likely to know the style of their opponent, even if hes playing under his real ID. So where are we getting with this exactly?
On September 14 2017 00:57 zenasprime wrote: If knowing who your opponent is does NOT afford an advantage, then why do so many players hide their identities behind barcode usernames?
o.O
There are like 20 professional players in the world who want to train allins and unexpected strategies to win their bo3s and bo5s on tournaments. They don't want anyone to be able to gather a replay pack of them and study their timings for those strategies to win them on tournaments. Every other barcode player does it because pros does it and they copy whatever pros do without any particular reason. If you have less than a $10000 in a prize money for the last year, then no one cares who you are and your identity is irrelevant.
Ad hominem counterargument protection: You are a great player. Avilo is great player.
On September 14 2017 00:57 zenasprime wrote: If knowing who your opponent is does NOT afford an advantage, then why do so many players hide their identities behind barcode usernames?
o.O
Ultimately, using an alias in an online multiplayer game initially achieves the exact same thing - you're masking your real identity with a handle. Only when you reach the top portion of the competition you tend to run into the same people more frequently, since it's less populated, so you start to recognize player handles and connect some information you gained from previous games to it. So, the only thing a barcode does is masking your identity again to restore the initial anonymity.
That said, this only kind of makes sense for a very small fraction of (professional) players, who use ladder to practice and prepare for tournaments, for the rest it makes 0 difference since greater populations in lower leagues naturally provide you with "more anonymity".
I think the reason a lot of people use barcodes even in lower leagues is just because they've seen pros and other high-level players do it. I myself used a barcode on a 2nd account, because I tend to suffer from ladder anxiety, but being able to just ladder without worrying about "performing", such an account actually gave me a lot of relief, although I know how stupid it is.
On September 14 2017 00:57 zenasprime wrote: If knowing who your opponent is does NOT afford an advantage, then why do so many players hide their identities behind barcode usernames?
o.O
To prevent opponents in tournaments from being able to study their recent match history and build orders
To prevent haters/fans from messaging them after the game because they have a well known username
They want to imitate the pros and possibly create nervousness in the opponent the same way using the name 'snute' or 'avilo' could make someone think it's possible they are playing a pro or are on a stream
There are like 20 professional players in the world who want to train allins and unexpected strategies to win their bo3s and bo5s on tournaments. They don't want anyone to be able to gather a replay pack of them and study their timings for those strategies to win them on tournaments.
Indeed. They do it because, there is an advantage to studying and knowing your opponent. So why is everyone so adamant about it not being the case?
There are like 20 professional players in the world who want to train allins and unexpected strategies to win their bo3s and bo5s on tournaments. They don't want anyone to be able to gather a replay pack of them and study their timings for those strategies to win them on tournaments.
Indeed. They do it because, as is there is an advantage to studying and knowing your opponent. So why is everyone so addimate about it not being the case?
*adamant
I think the point is that, for most of the players, you're not going to know your opponent since that one game you've played against them isn't likely going to be indicative of the variance of strategies they may employ. Unless you're adamant about studying every game you play, or you get lucky with matchmaking and find yourself fighting the same player repeatedly, and you actually have the capacity to change your own strategies such that you can properly execute a counter, trying to read your opponent at any level beyond the creme de la creme is a waste of time and provides a negligible advantage at best.
For instance:
You play against a Zerg who goes a long macro-oriented game. When you meet him again, you decide to go greedy to match them. They rush against your three-base-before-X.
I do agree that having barcodes is a problem at all levels of play. Even in Diamond (my level), I frequently will play an opponent several times in a row, and if that person is a barcode, the current method makes impossible to know in that instance it is a rematch, even if they use the same decal.
I would like to take a solution from online poker to solve this, and that is to give people the ability to write a personal note on the opponent. When playing online poker, you can click on a person and type a note that indicates how they play; then when you are at a table with that person again, the note stays and you can click on it to read and edit the note.
If this functionality was included in-game as well as via the match history screens, you would have your note on the opponent and then, when you play them again, have your unique note to identify playstyle used. This allows people to maintain barcode names while also helping opponents identify to some degree which is which.
This seems to be a very reasonable solution. To be honest, I don't really understand how any high level player can say that knowing their opponent, their strengths and weaknesses, doesn't constitute an advantageous body of knowledge. That's common sense in my opinion. It's how strategies are developed in real world competition, why do they think Starcraft 2 would be immune?
Average post count for users agreeing that barcodes are a problem: 62
Member since 2012. Hell my name is even listed under MLG Providence 2011 Open bracket here on TL (I wouldn't normally think it would matter but since it's a point of contention). I lurk more than I post. *shrug*
I didn't know I needed any special pre-req for posting to TL for a topic that seemed interesting to talk about.
Ladder play is supposed to be a fair experience for every player involved, and knowing who you are playing is a part of that experience.
The most fair game is when neither player has any data on the other so both can only gamble or play off of what they scout. You don't care about true fairness and ought to look into getting a barcode account.
When you play versus 5 barcodes and you have no idea who they are, what their tendencies are, what builds they might use...but they see your account as "Liquid Snute," or "avilo,' or "Puck," these players can immediately have an information advantage just by knowing who you are in the community and what your tendencies are and what your range of builds are.
The range of "conventional builds" is finite. Based off of race alone you know what they're more or less limited to. You also seem to imply that if you know who they are then you know exactly what they'll do every game, which is false. You probably get just as mad when you play A who generally does 0 but chooses to 1 and you lose. You can't guarantee what other players are going to do even if you know who they are. The closest player to that is you. "If Z or T then mech, else bio." is you at least 95% of the time.
This is a huge deal. The solution and counter-argument should not be "just make a barcode as well!" because that is a ridiculous argument and doesnt' address the main point.
Why is it a huge deal? Why should that not be the counter argument? What bad would come of practice if all players on ladder had barcodes and reacted solely off of scouting or via build order gambling? Your argument is ridiculous because you don't express why the one you're against is. What is the main point?
Barcode accounts are simply an unfair advantage because you maintain your anonymity while knowing who your opponent is. Would this scenario ever occur in a tournament bo3/bo5/boX? No. You might play an unknown player, but you at least know who they are and can look up VODS, etc. or get some information on them.
What happens when a barcode plays a barcode? What happens to that "unfair advantage"? You're also implying that ladder should operate as a tournament. In tournaments, people know one another's identity. This is true even in SC2, or at least at the global professional level. You give everyone you play an unfair advantage by using a unique name and a play style they're well aware of. You allow yourself to be countered before the game starts in most cases.
As a player/pro/ladder player...barcodes absolutely give an unfair advantage and i think it's time we discuss this as a community and hopefully get blizzard to get rid of these accounts. If people want to practice anonymously they can do custom games - a public ladder is not the place for having such an unfair advantage.
So when you play with a barcode account, you have a massive, unfair advantage over players that also play with barcode accounts? You keep arguing by assertion but prove nothing: barcode accounts are supposedly unfair for [everyone?] and in all contexts, right? Prove it. Or do you mean, "It's unfair to avilo just 'cause him say so."? If anything, ladder should be used for anonymous practice and custom games for tournament practice since in the latter (at the REAL pro level) you always know the name of who you're playing.
As a streamer with a pretty good viewer base...this is a huge issue for me personally. I do not know how much it is for other streamers getting sniped, but every other game i'm playing versus a barcoded player sniping my stream.
They can choose to be notified when your stream starts up whether they have a barcode account or not. You'll still get sniped.
It would already be bad enough playing versus barcodes normally, but then as a streamer when these people are purposely harrassing via barcodes over and over...how do i report these people or identify them to blizzard or twitch? There really is no winning here as the streamer in terms of putting an end to the harrassment from anonymous people on barcodes.
If all you care about is good, unadulterated practice, you wouldn't stream and you'd use a barcode account. When you decide to stream, the odds of you getting sniped increase.
At least if i knew their ID, i would be able to metagame them as well. Simply put, it's everything a normal player experiences but amplified because streaming the game let's people snipe my stream anonymously for an even more ridiculously unfair advantage.
Under the assumption that all people will do the same thing against you all the time, sure. Still arguing by assertion and providing zero proof other than your personal beliefs.
What do people think of this? I personally do not think the SC2 competitive ladder should allow for barcodes and something should finally be done about it.
This people thinks you should get a new barcode account, have zero friends on it, ladder without streaming on that account then truthfully report back your findings.
"I don't have enough skill to beat someone with the tools the game gives me, so I will complain about something like anonymity because I think that will give me some modicum of an advantage."
Does a barcode player gain an advantage over a non-barcode player? Well yes of course. Knowing your opponent is part of Sun Tzu's 'Art of War'.
But is it enough of an advantage that Blizzard should do something about it? No it isn't. Every game has a chance to be different, and Sun Tzu also stated that you should always do what your opponent doesn't expect. If you are weak, you should attack. If you are strong, you should defend.
But Avilo is so predictable, that banning barcodes wouldn't even help him win more because everyone knows his playstyle isn't flexible.
On September 14 2017 00:57 zenasprime wrote: If knowing who your opponent is does NOT afford an advantage, then why do so many players hide their identities behind barcode usernames?
o.O
Why do you not write in your user name what you ate and shit today? I believe I could deduce all kinds of stuff from this and hiding this from me is an UNFAIR advantage.
Nobody denies it might be an advantage, but that simply doesn't matter.
On September 14 2017 00:57 zenasprime wrote: If knowing who your opponent is does NOT afford an advantage, then why do so many players hide their identities behind barcode usernames?
o.O
Why do you not write in your user name what you ate and shit today? I believe I could deduce all kinds of stuff from this and hiding this from me is an UNFAIR advantage.
Nobody denies it might be an advantage, but that simply doesn't matter.
I ate corn today, and I shat it too. Whenever I eat corn I run Adept all-n all day.
On September 14 2017 03:52 Guillermoman wrote: I do agree that having barcodes is a problem at all levels of play. Even in Diamond (my level), I frequently will play an opponent several times in a row, and if that person is a barcode, the current method makes impossible to know in that instance it is a rematch, even if they use the same decal.
I would like to take a solution from online poker to solve this, and that is to give people the ability to write a personal note on the opponent. When playing online poker, you can click on a person and type a note that indicates how they play; then when you are at a table with that person again, the note stays and you can click on it to read and edit the note.
If this functionality was included in-game as well as via the match history screens, you would have your note on the opponent and then, when you play them again, have your unique note to identify playstyle used. This allows people to maintain barcode names while also helping opponents identify to some degree which is which.
This would be a good solution. There's a catch though. What you are saying is correct and consistent IF we agreed that everyone should know who they are playing and that this is a good thing. I see some people (including avilo) already assume that the IF is TRUE which is not necessarily so in my opinion.
For example some people do not want to be identified. For example maybe I don't want you to know that you played me (because otherwise you could hard counter me or whatever). Is that not an equally viable stand point? I mean the point of being barcode might just be that.
What I am saying is: we should not be discussing if we want to ban barcodes and how to do it, but rather we should discuss first what the issue really is.
And in my opinion that is: The problem that avilo faces could also be seen as: we do not know who barcode is, but that barcode knows who avilo is. At least until now I believe this perspective makes more sense, since I haven't been convinced otherwise. I agree that there might be an opportunity to improve the game. But it would in my POV make more sense to focus on the one player (avilo here in this example) rather than all the other players. To illustrate my thoughts: Allow the player to have an anonymous ranked option or similar as opposed to reveal the match histroy of all other players. Why make a change which affects the majority, if you can make a change that only affects a minority and effectively solves the same issue? I'm not saying this is exactly the golden solution, but I want to push the discussion in this kind of direction.
Or if avilo gets sniped a lot I like the idea of an option to veto playing certain players. This would also solve some other issues. For instance I think nobody wants to play with the people they put on their ignore lists.
On September 14 2017 00:57 zenasprime wrote: If knowing who your opponent is does NOT afford an advantage, then why do so many players hide their identities behind barcode usernames?
o.O
Why do you not write in your user name what you ate and shit today? I believe I could deduce all kinds of stuff from this and hiding this from me is an UNFAIR advantage.
Nobody denies it might be an advantage, but that simply doesn't matter.
Meaningless information is meaningless? Thank you captain obvious. :p
If you are you trying to suggest, on the other hand, that high level players don't study the replays of their regular opponents to learn what their strengths and weakness are and thus gain an advantage by knowing of them for future games, well that seems a bit naive to me.
Perhaps that's why the NA foreigners do so poorly in comparison to their EU and KR peers? :p
For example some people do not want to be identified. For example maybe I don't want you to know that you played me (because otherwise you could hard counter me or whatever). Is that not an equally viable stand point? I mean the point of being barcode might just be that.
You wouldn't get that luxury in a tournament so why would you expect it on the Ladder?
For example some people do not want to be identified. For example maybe I don't want you to know that you played me (because otherwise you could hard counter me or whatever). Is that not an equally viable stand point? I mean the point of being barcode might just be that.
You wouldn't get that luxury in a tournament so why would you expect it on the Ladder?
For example some people do not want to be identified. For example maybe I don't want you to know that you played me (because otherwise you could hard counter me or whatever). Is that not an equally viable stand point? I mean the point of being barcode might just be that.
You wouldn't get that luxury in a tournament so why would you expect it on the Ladder?
What are you getting at? Are you saying this is not a viable stand point because this is not the case in a tournament? Are you saying my personal preference is not a valid point because I dislike something which is in a tournament? Are you saying I cannot have the desire to be anonymous because I wouldn't be anonymous in a tournament?
I'm not being sarcastic, I honestly am not getting your point, because for me these two things have no logical connection right now. What do tournaments have to do with all this?
The answer is "It depends" and I don't think it warrants a ban of anonymous accounts. Again this is also dependent on what level of play we're discussing. But since we're discussing whether or not it should be banned entirely we need to consider the entire player base and not just streamers, professional players, or other player whom in one way or another is well-known.
The things you have to factor in to judge whether or not is fair is too situational which means a flat out ban is not justified. Unless the player base changed so drastically that everyone is basically playing the same guy over and over (despite league differences, i.e. gold players play the same gold player and so forth) you can't just make a statement that it'll always be an advantage and not fair. Because that would imply that - no matter whom you face - you'll always know their playstyle if they reveal their true identitiy. I have a hard time believing that. Basically for this to be fair - in the sense of your argumentation - players should practically be enforced to reveal details about themselves in a description of their profile or something.
"Hi I'm merz, I favour standard macro-oriented play and I rarely cheese"
This isn't chess, you are not entitled to more information about your opponent other than what you can deduct within the actual game itself. I'm trying to put myself in your shoes but I simply cannot see how this, objectively, could be said to always mean an un-fair advantage to the player who is a barcode, or in other ways, anonymous.
Using tournament settings is a moot point because either you run into a complete no-name and you can't really do anything about the fact that he'll probably know more about your playstyle than you do about his, or you run into a well-known name and you can both gamble on builds that would potentially blind counter their prefered style of play.
I think it would be stupid to ban the barcode juste to prevent the sniping of the streamers. Many professional players have currently no team and mostly rely on the ladder to practise and develop new strategies. If every one is directly able to know that you are the guy practising this new strategy, then the element of surprise would be totally lost. Imagine that SoS has no team and is developing a new build on the ladder for his next match. The oponnnent would be totally prepared.
Banning the barcodes would punish many people that did nothing.
Maybe the solution would be that everyone is anonymous on the ladder? It's just a proposition
I agree that barcodes could be irritating sometimes, but it is completely fair to be used in ladder matches. If you pretend to be a good player, you have to face the unknown and beat it, no matter who is the person against you. Of course we are not talking about offline and online tournaments, but an ordinary ladder matches. If a random guy is a cheesy type of player and uses barcode and there is no way to recognize him or her, you can't get excuses because you're facing a barcode player, it is simply you are not prepared to defend cheese attacks.
What i would like is that when you reach Grand Master, you have to change your name to "not barcode". Like if you had a "tournament alt name" it could change it upon reaching GM.
That would also hellp tournaments since you would have to just switch to your tournament name
Barcodes are fine and also important to have. If they are banned pros will find other ways around it, and they should, because they play FOR A LIVING and it is their right to hide strategies and/or identity before competitions. If anything, there should be an in-built toggle right before a game , a setting pros can use - "hide identity in next game" or something, if barcodes bother that much.
Pros dont owe anything to anyone. They worked hard to get where they are and they should have such benefits. Also if you are good at SC2 enough you can tell precisely from playstyle who you are dealing with, so the system works as intended.
because they play FOR A LIVING and it is their right to hide strategies
The only "rights" they have are the ones that Blizzard has ordained them to have while logged in and playing the game. At most, Blizzard seems to exhibit a laissez faire attitude towards player naming conventions so long as they do not violate the ToS and CoC. That could change or not change based entirely on Blizzards whim.
Ah, i should clarify also when i wrote in the stream title "Ban them from ladder" what i meant was to force people off of barcode account names or abolish them by doing what some people in this thread suggested and giving every account an identifier which would essentially get rid of that barcode's anonymity.
My bad lol. I did not mean literally to ban every person that has a barcode from the ladder itself. I just meant getting rid of the barcode anonymity via another means to end it.
On September 14 2017 23:35 avilo wrote: Ah, i should clarify also when i wrote in the stream title "Ban them from ladder" what i meant was to force people off of barcode account names or abolish them by doing what some people in this thread and giving every account an identifier which would essentially get rid of that barcode's anonymity.
My bad lol. I did not mean literally to ban every person that has a barcode from the ladder itself. I just meant getting rid of the barcode anonymity via another means to end it.
I don't really get what banning barcodes would accomplish. All pro's would just agree to name themselves "kachinsky" and the rest of the community would follow.>
EDIT: read the clarification, I now realize I'm an idiot.
On September 12 2017 06:04 Charoisaur wrote: Who cares about ladder? Ladder is just there to practice, the only time when ladder rankings are important are for the WCS challenger competition and barcodes are banned there.
Can't it be argued that you get less valuable practice from ladder if you have no info on your opponent, but they do about you, giving you a disadvantage?
On September 12 2017 06:04 Charoisaur wrote: Who cares about ladder? Ladder is just there to practice, the only time when ladder rankings are important are for the WCS challenger competition and barcodes are banned there.
Can't it be argued that you get less valuable practice from ladder if you have no info on your opponent, but they do about you, giving you a disadvantage?
It means you'll need to practice scouting a little bit better, and maybe mix up your build order a little bit more.
Look at printf, he cannon rushes literally every single game in GM. You know it's coming but he is really good at it.
Is it unfair to know that? No more than it's unfair to have a random player (unknown race, giving him the advantage!!) Or that your opponent might see what you're doing and build units to counter you.
Not sure if this has been brought up in the last 8 pages but there was a time towards the end of WoL (I think?) where on the GM ladder there were 10 - 12 people with the name 'QuanticFlo'. I feel like if Barcodes get banned then they can just as easily find a different name to use
On September 12 2017 06:04 Charoisaur wrote: Who cares about ladder? Ladder is just there to practice, the only time when ladder rankings are important are for the WCS challenger competition and barcodes are banned there.
Can't it be argued that you get less valuable practice from ladder if you have no info on your opponent, but they do about you, giving you a disadvantage?
I'd argue that playing without a barcode gives more quality practice because you get to play vs players who specificially try to counter your playstyle - like in a tournament. That's probably the reason quite a lot of pros still play without barcodes. You don't want to overdo it of course to not reveal all your tricks.
On September 12 2017 06:04 Charoisaur wrote: Who cares about ladder? Ladder is just there to practice, the only time when ladder rankings are important are for the WCS challenger competition and barcodes are banned there.
Can't it be argued that you get less valuable practice from ladder if you have no info on your opponent, but they do about you, giving you a disadvantage?
I'd argue that playing without a barcode gives more quality practice because you get to play vs players who specificially try to counter your playstyle - like in a tournament. That's probably the reason quite a lot of pros still play without barcodes. You don't want to overdo it of course to not reveal all your tricks.
to get a balanced practise experience why not a portion of games where you are 100% anonymous with a barcode and 100% transparent with your public nickname?
On September 12 2017 06:04 Charoisaur wrote: Who cares about ladder? Ladder is just there to practice, the only time when ladder rankings are important are for the WCS challenger competition and barcodes are banned there.
Can't it be argued that you get less valuable practice from ladder if you have no info on your opponent, but they do about you, giving you a disadvantage?
I'd argue that playing without a barcode gives more quality practice because you get to play vs players who specificially try to counter your playstyle - like in a tournament. That's probably the reason quite a lot of pros still play without barcodes. You don't want to overdo it of course to not reveal all your tricks.
to get a balanced practise experience why not a portion of games where you are 100% anonymous with a barcode and 100% transparent with your public nickname?
Or an option where you can just opt in for anonymity? Just check a box, and boom. Your games are now all just "player" - but your opponent is "player" as well, so it'll be completely anonymous for you.
If you don't check it, then you'll see your name and theirs (if they haven't opted into anonymity).
On September 12 2017 06:04 Charoisaur wrote: Who cares about ladder? Ladder is just there to practice, the only time when ladder rankings are important are for the WCS challenger competition and barcodes are banned there.
Can't it be argued that you get less valuable practice from ladder if you have no info on your opponent, but they do about you, giving you a disadvantage?
I'd argue that playing without a barcode gives more quality practice because you get to play vs players who specificially try to counter your playstyle - like in a tournament. That's probably the reason quite a lot of pros still play without barcodes. You don't want to overdo it of course to not reveal all your tricks.
to get a balanced practise experience why not a portion of games where you are 100% anonymous with a barcode and 100% transparent with your public nickname?
Or an option where you can just opt in for anonymity? Just check a box, and boom. Your games are now all just "player" - but your opponent is "player" as well, so it'll be completely anonymous for you.
If you don't check it, then you'll see your name and theirs (if they haven't opted into anonymity).
Yeah! I like you idea! I think it's a good balance to still alow players to develop great strategies and practise them on ladder
So the idea is to ban/remove barcodes and anonymous names and replace it with a form of opt-in anonymity? Choosing your username already serves as that opt-in anonymity for everyone who uses barcodes or "joke usernames" and the like. It could be nice for people who want a break from the norm for a short moment without requiring them to buy or log into a different account, and could let some high level players get their anon ladder practice, but would it really do much more than what barcodes are already doing?
Speaking of multiple accounts, one more reason that many people use anon accounts is so they can play on an account that isn't floating at the same MMR in each region in addition to getting anonymous practice. So, would those players have to log into every single account they own, make new usernames for all of them, and check all the boxes on all of them to keep them anonymous?
Then, if each account would have an "anon/hidden match history" and a "public match history" then anyone who uses the opt-in anon feature would be hiding information which is supposedly what this whole anti-barcode argument was about to begin with and ends up presenting a new issue that may/may not affect a larger/smaller number of players.
And how would an opt-in anon feature be useful to someone looking to stream their gameplay on their single account without still running into the other half of the argument about stream sniping and ghosting?
It seems like a whole of hassle for everyone involved for little to no payoff for the players that would actually be affected.
lol Smurfing is part of the fun of gaming. For some its more for some its less. Every pro eventually would log into some fake account just to have fun. I would like to live in the world where games, which are for entertainment, would not dictate me what to do. The only time where having realID is important is online tournaments and WCS ladder challenge. This is like 1% of the whole ladder experience. Let it be.
There seems to be a strange level of misunderstanding of what a barcode, as it is use in Starcraft 2, really is in a lot of these responses.
These are not players with identical names using the "|" character (known as the pipe) such that the username is exactly the same for each of them. For example: This #1 ranked Zerg player...
Instead, because of the Font used by Blizzard for Starcraft 2, this players username (lIlIlIllIIlI) is a collection of capital i's (I) and lower case L's (l), which even here on this website, appear indistinguishable. If you past this username into a text editor and change to font to Times (a sarif font) you can clearly see the users name consists of a unique combination of I's and L's:
The reason players did this was because at the time of Starcraft 2's release usernames were unique thus the only method by which a player could obfuscate their unique identifier (not to be confused with identity) was to use a username that was difficult, if not impossible to read accurately. This provided them with a distinct advantage over players who's unique username (even if it didn't identify the player) provided them with information about their opponent and their possible strengths and weakness while denying their opponent the same. In the higher leagues, these player more often then not are playing each other very regularly, so it makes perfect sense to anyone with a little bit of craftiness. Ultimately it's Blizzard's fault for using a font where this is possibility but it's their game, their rules, and for whatever their reasons they have decided to not take any action to remedy the situation.
Regardless, to say that this practices is about "privacy", in that pro players are looking to hide their identities, its naive if not just blatantly disingenuous. These players weren't trying to hide their personal identity, they were trying to obtain an advantage. If it was just a matter of hiding their true identity, players have always had the option to use an alias and more recently a non-unique username.
Now whether or not this practice of obfuscation is effective at the GM level is irrelevant. Ultimately it goes against the spirit of the Ladder when you cannot even tell who the players are the are being ranked. It doesn't matter whether or not you believe the Ladder is or is not serious business. It's not fun. It's not competitive. It's just plain silly.
You mean the release when everyone was identified by the visible nickname and hidden number identifier? Or different time, because I am pretty sure I wasn't the only Deacon in Wings of Liberty beta or Wings of Liberty.
The players name were never unique in SC2 as far as I can remember, so what time are you writing about?
The players name were never unique in SC2 as far as I can remember, so what time are you writing about?
There was a time when battle.net usernames were required to be unique. No, I do not remember exactly when that was but it wasn't until after Starcraft 2 was released that it was changed. Yes, this policy has changed a number of time with a variety of different configurations of the past 8+ or so years.
I remember this because I had to call tech support about having the Collectors Edition applied to my account. During that call it was required that I create a new account with a unique username. It wasn't until a year or so later that I could change that second accounts Stacraft 2 player name to zenasprime. There was a big update that provide the new feature which allowed non-unique player names.
On September 15 2017 19:17 blunderfulguy wrote: So the idea is to ban/remove barcodes and anonymous names and replace it with a form of opt-in anonymity? Choosing your username already serves as that opt-in anonymity for everyone who uses barcodes or "joke usernames" and the like. It could be nice for people who want a break from the norm for a short moment without requiring them to buy or log into a different account, and could let some high level players get their anon ladder practice, but would it really do much more than what barcodes are already doing?
Speaking of multiple accounts, one more reason that many people use anon accounts is so they can play on an account that isn't floating at the same MMR in each region in addition to getting anonymous practice. So, would those players have to log into every single account they own, make new usernames for all of them, and check all the boxes on all of them to keep them anonymous?
Then, if each account would have an "anon/hidden match history" and a "public match history" then anyone who uses the opt-in anon feature would be hiding information which is supposedly what this whole anti-barcode argument was about to begin with and ends up presenting a new issue that may/may not affect a larger/smaller number of players.
And how would an opt-in anon feature be useful to someone looking to stream their gameplay on their single account without still running into the other half of the argument about stream sniping and ghosting?
It seems like a whole of hassle for everyone involved for little to no payoff for the players that would actually be affected.
You're right, I was trying to come up with some idea that compromised for everyone. But I don't think it really has that much value.
Just pick a new name / play on a diff server and be done with it. It's a lot of trouble to go through for something that isn't a real issue.
Well, username - sure, that's the point of username identifier. But then when you first time logged into the game you created the player avatar, that was shown across the SC2 from beta. I've never seen anywhere my username displayed in the game. So, your theory is nice and all, but wrong.
From the release of SC2 the names displayed in the game were NOT unique That's why I sent every friend who played SC2 "deacon.620"
On September 15 2017 20:43 zenasprime wrote: There seems to be a strange level of misunderstanding of what a barcode, as it is use in Starcraft 2, really is in a lot of these responses.
These are not players with identical names using the "|" character (known as the pipe) such that the username is exactly the same for each of them. For example: This #1 ranked Zerg player...
On September 15 2017 19:43 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: lol Smurfing is part of the fun of gaming. For some its more for some its less. Every pro eventually would log into some fake account just to have fun. I would like to live in the world where games, which are for entertainment, would not dictate me what to do. The only time where having realID is important is online tournaments and WCS ladder challenge. This is like 1% of the whole ladder experience. Let it be.
fun is not allowed. win and crush the soul of your opponent at all cost!
getting serious though, i know someone who intentionally loses 5 games in a row on the ladder. then the next 5 game stretch he tries his absolute best. he prefers this because by doing this he can usually go 3-2,4-1, or 5-0 in the games he really tries hard.
that is his basic 10 game cycle though. a guy doing that can never really be "caught" or "punished". and you can take a game off the guy when he is in "loser mode" and think u r some superstar.. when.... really he just gave u the game.
On September 15 2017 19:43 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: Let it be.
On September 15 2017 21:06 deacon.frost wrote: Well, username - sure, that's the point of username identifier. But then when you first time logged into the game you created the player avatar, that was shown across the SC2 from beta. I've never seen anywhere my username displayed in the game. So, your theory is nice and all, but wrong.
From the release of SC2 the names displayed in the game were NOT unique That's why I sent every friend who played SC2 "deacon.620"
BattleTags were implemented AFTER Starcraft 2 was released. To be fair, it was a "long" time ago, especially for you youngins, so I can forgive you not remembering the order of events properly. :p
Regardless of people's opinions one way or the other i'm glad this created a lot of discussion Maybe it's a topic that can be brought up at the upcoming SC2 Community Summit as well.
Someone here from TL tweeted out something similar with a screenshot of the EU ladder i think - almost all the top spots are dominated by, you guessed it! lllllllllllllllllll -_-
On September 16 2017 00:55 avilo wrote: Regardless of people's opinions one way or the other i'm glad this created a lot of discussion Maybe it's a topic that can be brought up at the upcoming SC2 Community Summit as well.
Someone here from TL tweeted out something similar with a screenshot of the EU ladder i think - almost all the top spots are dominated by, you guessed it! lllllllllllllllllll -_-
csb, u nevered responded to anyone who showed you how stupid a 'ban everyone who is a barcode' would b, but shoutouts to u and this other guy who has all 18 of his posts in this thread; of which, roughly, somewhere around the number of 0 would be the number of those 18 that made any sense.
yeah, its shitty. but i think we should respect their name choices even if its not a real name choice. you SHOULD be able to write notes on an opponent that will display during loading screen (like how we currently keep track of barcode names, because i hvae like fifteen barcode friends with thatcher portraits alone, and i have no clue who is who if i come backfrom a few days break)
you could write "cheesy FUCK" and you'd know immediately who it is or write stuff like "proxied me on abyssal by my 3rd"
there IS a compromise here.. blizzard added it with friends long ago. why not enemies?
avilo, you're not even a serious player, you need to get a bit less emotional about the game and just deal with your losses better, you're such a cry baby.
it doesn't matter if your opponent has a name or not, you always do the same build don't you? so who cares who the other player is
also - why you keep dodgin me cuz i'm in vfam ?? are you seriously that pathetic you can't vs anyone related to vibe in any way ?? you need to grow up before anyone will take you seriously.
On September 15 2017 21:06 deacon.frost wrote: Well, username - sure, that's the point of username identifier. But then when you first time logged into the game you created the player avatar, that was shown across the SC2 from beta. I've never seen anywhere my username displayed in the game. So, your theory is nice and all, but wrong.
From the release of SC2 the names displayed in the game were NOT unique That's why I sent every friend who played SC2 "deacon.620"
BattleTags were implemented AFTER Starcraft 2 was released. To be fair, it was a "long" time ago, especially for you youngins, so I can forgive you not remembering the order of events properly. :p
Lol, I played SC2 from day 1(ok, day 3, it took 3 days to get CE from UK to CZ) and was even the beta, so - can you please give me a link to the patch notes supporting you? Thanks!
edit> I may already forgot that, my memory isn't the best but I really don't remember they implementing battle tags into SC2 later. Thus I would love to see the patch notes for this. Edit2> again, we're talking about Starcraft, NOT battle.net battle tags that were implemented later during development of DIII aaand Edit3> my battle net tag is different than deacon.620 that was my SC2 tag, or whatever it was called in WoL
Just making sure we;re talking about the same thing...