It's finally here! One month after we opened up TLMC9, the judging has concluded and we're now ready to reveal our finalists.
From the pool of submitted maps, we chose 3 Macro Maps, 3 Standard Maps, 3 Rush Maps, and 3 "New" Maps. In addition, we had four(4) "Judge's Choice" picks, which could come from any category. For this particular contest, we felt that the Macro and Standard categories were the strongest, so this season we will have 5 Macro and 5 Standard maps in the map pool.
One important change to the map contest is that with this iteration, every map in the finals will earn the mapmaker $100. Because a few mapmakers have more than one map in the finals, they will earn $200 or even $300. As always, mapmakers will still be able to earn even more money later on during the public voting phase.
Again, we will be working with all mappers in the coming two phases (WardiTV Tournament Phase and Iteration Phase) to improve the maps before the final voting stage where you, the Starcraft community, will get to pick who wins additional cash prizes.
You can find every maps on AM, EU, and KR by searching for [TLMC9].
FINALISTS
Macro Maps
A total of 30 maps were submitted to this category. For this category, judges focused on the ones that truly promoted macro play and had interesting layouts throughout the entire map.
Backwater | AVEX
Backwater was my last attempt into creating a 'pocket-third' concept, and I think the games we had showed that it works out well. I asked around and it seems that the ease of scouting this base as well as the middle ground of harassing it seems to work out in most of the matchups, even in ZvZ. The map is easy to read, the linear expansion pattern and open field makes for surprisingly interesting engagements outside of the base locations rather than on the base itself. This map is a good bet to vote on if you are fan of three-base games that aren't necessarily turtle-y like Acolyte.
Changelog:
A muddy swamp with a river that splits the map down the center.
There is a pocket third base that can be only accessed through the natural mineral line.
There is a reaper cliff by said pocket base to help with scouting, as well as a visible Overlord spot near each base.
It's relatively simple to take three bases and the fourth base isn't horribly exposed either. The base splits through the center through a few ramps, with the rush distance being relatively normal in length.
Blackpink | AVEX
A very standard macro map with relatively linear expansion patterns, many ramps and pathways for army movement.
Each base has roughly 30-35 direct distance between them.
The vertical third base can be closed off similar to Echo LE to secure it and create a triangular four base setup.
Defender's Resort | Youngrustler
Defender's Resort is a very macro favored map that has first four bases on high ground that can only be entered by two entrances.
These entrances lead into low ground exposed fifth bases which gives enough time for the players to macro up safely while going onto the map.
The high number of bases on the map also creates a more friendly late game since the map has more resources for both players.
Neo Tropicana | IeZaeL
VERTICAL SPAWNS ARE DISABLED. HORIZONTAL AND CROSS SPAWNS ONLY
A very standard macro map with a striking color palette and some never-seen-before rocks usage.
The third and fourth bases are quite easy to take and hold.
The rock clusters in the middle prevent the players from taking control of the four Xel-naga Towers.
When the clusters are destroyed, new pathways become opened. Players must judge carefully whether some vision is worth the risk.
Sky Garden | NewSunshine
This is a large 4-player diagonal symmetry map, like the old Metalopolis and Lost Temple, that seeks to improve on the balance of the old map style. To do this, the map is on the large side, to give more room to balance out rush distances, so there are no spawn restrictions.
One set of corners has Xel'Naga towers watching over them and the other is blocked with air-movement blockers, so the corners themselves take up less attention, and players can focus more on what's happening in the middle of the map.
Map type aside, the features are all fairly standard, and while there is some variance in rush distances based on spawn positions, they're all on the Macro-side of things.
Standard Maps
A total of 42 maps were submitted to this category. In this category, the judges looked for maps that were well-executed or gave us slight deviations from what we're used to.
Acid Plant | nesta-kun
Set in an overgrown chemical plant, there are many different options for expansion patterns past the natural, allowing for varied strategies
The forward gold bases can offer an offensive platform, though it is vulnerable to flanking.
Destructible Debris opens up the map during the later stages of the game.
Eastwatch | IeZaeL
Eastwatch is a BW-inspired standard macro that allows all kind of gameplay with a focus on tactical maneuvers to overcome your opponent.
Nearly the whole map is built on a single cliff level, aside from main/natural, with the pathways separated by walls made by a mixture of cliffs+doodads.
The rocks play a huge part in the tactical gameplay, providing exciting ways to block/open new paths and bases.
There is a gold base that can be taken as a third, but the players must defend it carefully, since if the Rock Tower near it goes down, the gold base is completely isolated.
There are a couple of other neat tricks hidden in the pathways, that become unlocked if a certain combination of rocks is killed/taken down.
Grime | Fatam
There are two main expansion paths. If you take the safer 4th, you have a more open 5th. If you take the more open 4th, you have a 5th with only a small ramp that needs defending.
With a variety of choke/hallway sizes and highgrounds, along with dangerous air spaces, map vision and positional play will be key.
Catalyst | NegativeZero
A solid, medium sized 14 base map for standard play.
The expansion pattern is very flexible - after the linear 3rd, take your pick of aggressive vs defensive, forward vs protected bases.
The long, arcing high grounds can be very powerful for map control, acting as a staging point to defend multiple bases as the game progresses. These fairly narrow/chokey ridges provide a contrast to the 2 wide open central low-ground areas.
Frontal attacks are initially funneled through 3 consecutive chokes: the rock-narrowed ramps in front of the naturals, and the central choke point - the aggressor may prefer to move along the high ground, or take one of the side paths. Later on, the large rocks near the center can be destroyed to open up the direct attack paths across the central high grounds.
Octane | Meavis
The map consists of a fairly standard 3 base setup. From there the deviation begins. Any further bases are located behind tight chokes, making them harder to conquer from both the perspective of the attacker and defender.
Near the center of the map are two high ground pods, which radiate a strong advantage to all adjacent areas, giving control of the 4 and 10 o'clock expansions, as well as an advantage towards the nearby low grounds.
Choked expansions: any base further than the 3rd is semi-isolated by small chokepoints.
Island bases: two island bases are located in the northwest and southeast corners.
Rush Maps
23 maps were primarily submitted in this category. For Rush maps, we looked for maps that weren't just smaller scale versions of standard maps. In general, a combination of creative ideas and execution on those ideas dominated this category.
Abiogenesis | NegativeZero
Through careful expansion positioning, this map is designed to enable very quick 1-2 base attacks, while also allowing a safe transition into macro play once the 3rd is taken.
The naturals are positioned in front of the mains, with the chokes facing directly towards each other, opening a straight path between the players and reducing the rush distance.
The direct attack path crosses a tight forward ramp, narrow enough to be blocked by a single forcefield or walled like a normal main ramp, ensuring a strong defender's advantage. Attackers are encouraged to take a longer path to gain a more open avenue of attack.
Once the naturals are secured, the thirds are extremely safe - they're close, and they're tucked in a corner behind the main and natural, allowing you to expand away from your opponent and safely macro up.
With only 12 bases, the map has a low expansion count for LotV, but it is designed to allow you to hold as many of them as possible at once. The 4th and 5th are nearly as safe as the 3rd, located in a line hugging the back of the map. Only the 6th is a more difficult, contested forward base.
Battle on the Boardwalk | SidianTheBard
Not only is the map fairly smushed together, it has many aggressiveforward chokes (think gettysberg's bridge) yet also has a "Boardwalk" around the outside edge of the map that connects both mains.
Both the backdoor boardwalk and the forward aggressive boardwalk can both be fully walled with just one depot/pylon if needed.
The natural is far enough away from the aggressive boardwalk that Tank pushes shouldn't be too strong.
Tanks can only deny 2 mineral fields from the lowground fourths and 4 mineral fields from the lowground fifths if they are placed on the upper boardwalk around the edge of the map.
God's Garden | IeZaeL
A five-lane map that provides heavy action-packed games with new terrain layouts and features. Also, fruits!
This map features a slightly narrow-sized corridor in the middle of the map that allows very short rush distances.
There are a couple of Rock Towers that can be destroyed to seal off the central path, forcing players to use the other lanes. This provides heavy back and forth games, forcing players to actually think about the strategic planning regarding the army movement, as moving between lanes is difficult and slow.
Every ramp is angled at 60° instead of 45°, aside from the main and natural ones.
Cooling Towers will block the middle path once taken down.
New Maps
There were 22 maps submitted in this category. For New maps, we focused on ideas that we felt would truly change how the maps played. Maps were excluded for a variety of reasons, including execution, not being new enough, and being too obviously imbalanced.
Anomaly | NegativeZero
An unusually long, narrow map that aims to encourage a uniquely straightforward expansion pattern and a methodical style of play.
The map has a single long primary attack path that curves back and forth, which is large enough for full army engagements. Most expansions are located on this path and are roughly intended to be taken in order as you progress along the path.
A "bonus" island expansion contains only 6 minerals and 1 geyser, and is located behind your ground-based 3rd and 4th. It can be taken safely at any time once you've secured the 4th, since it will be covered from all angles.
All along the path, pairs of bridges act as shortcuts, but can easily be exploited by the opponent to catch large armies out of position.
Movement through the middle is still restricted until the rocks blocking the final set of bridges are killed, unlocking the direct path across the center and opening an additional avenue of attack.
Arch of Janus | Enekh
The 7 o'clock bases are surrounded by airblockers.
Both the main and natural expansions feature gold bases.
If workers are constantly produced and resources are constantly collected, the main base's gold minerals will run out after 5 minutes and there will be a ground passage through the airblocker.
Judge's comments: Yes, this was created by the creator of Dasan Station.
Neon Violet Square | RQM
There are many 1 x 1 unpassable doodads that form different features of the map. 1 x 1 passages blocks the big units: Siege Tank, Thor, Archon, and Ultralisk while all other units can pass. 2 x 2 passages are accessible to all units.
Scattered chokes made up of 1 x 1 passages can still be used as typical chokes, but require more buildings to wall-in.
The main is smaller than that of typical macro maps to lessen the strength of air units.
There are three choices for the third. One is a pocket third that is safe from air harass but has fewer resource nodes. Its entrance is made up of 1 x 1 passages so big units cannot pass through.
The other two choices are the vertical third and lower ground third. The way to the vertical third is initially narrowed to adjust the natural’s entrance. The lower ground third can be harassed from above.
The vertical fourth is relatively vulnerable compare to the other choices. There are lower ground zones to harass and the entrance consists of 1 x 1 doodads. This entrance has 2 x 2 passage so big units can pass.
The middle is a massively wide zone but has scattered chokes of 1 x 1 doodads. Four lines of doodads have a few 1x1 passages and one 2x2 passage. As the widest passage is the outmost one, the big units take more time to travel to the opponent’s base.
There are also three clusters of 1 x 1 doodads in the middle. Players can avoid this zone by using roundabout ways.
Breaking the four 6 x 6 rocks also leads to new attack paths so you can bypass these features.
What's Next?
Congratulations to all the mappers who made it to the finals. Not only do we want to highlight the maps that progressed to the final 16, we want to highlight the mappers that have brought you these great maps:
nesta-kun is a newcomer whose first map has become a TLMC finalist!
Fatam and Meavis consistently place highly in TLMCs.
Youngrustler, creator of Defender's Landing.
RQM, creator of Judgement, a GSL map.
NewSunshine, creator of Galactic Process.
Enekh (TLMC6 3rd), creator of Dasan Station, Acolyte.
SidianTheBard, creator of Abyssal Reef, Ascension to Aiur, Honorgrounds, Korhal Carnage Knockout, Moonlight Madness, and Habitation Station.
AVEX, (TLMC8 1st), creator of Odyssey, Blood Boil, and Invader, has two maps in the finals.
IeZaeL, creator of Coda, has three maps in the finals.
NegativeZero (TLMC6 1st, TLMC7 2nd), creator of Sequencer, Interloper, Apotheosis, Terraform, has three maps in the finals.
Starting tomorrow, WardiTV will be hosting its WardiTV Teamliquid Map Test Contest Tournament exclusively on these maps. We're especially excited for the tournament this season, because the lineup involved is possibly the strongest lineup we've ever seen in an online tournament in the history of StarCraft II.
Afterwards, mappers will be given time to balance and touch up their maps for the final judging process where you can vote for your favorite maps. The entire process is detailed here. So what do you think about the finalists? What are your favorite maps? Which maps got snubbed? Leave your thoughts and comments below!
Well, I hate 2 of the 'new' maps, but they do tend to be controversial. Overall I think this is a very good selection of finalists, although I'm obviously disappointed I'm not among them ^^.
overal pretty strong TLMC, 3 things stand out to me personally.
janus doesn't seem to have any chance of ever working. defenders is honestly very weak to revealed entrys. Octane I found to be one of my weaker entrys so also bit odd this made it.
Not a huge fan of this lot of finalists tbh, lots of the maps just feel a bit off. As for Arch of Janus it's positively awful and unworkable, but the judges seem to have a rule that they have to include at least one obvious disaster in each contest.
On September 16 2017 08:24 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Not a huge fan of this lot of finalists tbh, lots of the maps just feel a bit off. As for Arch of Janus it's positively awful and unworkable, but the judges seem to have a rule that they have to include at least one obvious disaster in each contest.
Just wait, Janus is gonna come around next Blizzcon to say hello.
Kudos to Avex and Youngrustler for continuing to feed my love for pathable water, soon all maps on Ladder will have pathable water! A fitting tribute to the quickly discarded (that should have been a crime) Bel'Shir Beach!
Catalyst really reminds me of those old WoL maps, and considering it uses the old Mar Sara tileset, it's not that far off, pretty cool overall!
God's Garden looks like one explosion of colour and I love it, Fruitland was such a cool map and I love the fact its tileset was used again. Now if only it had pathable lemonade or grape juice.
Anomaly is quite certainly an anomaly, just look at it, it's like a snake! If it wasn't for those platforms in the middle, we'd have a blast watching units just walk back and forth!
Arch of Janus is everything we need in Ladder right now, if it's not a ladder map next season I'm going to be very disappointed in Blizzard, WE NEED IT!
Neon Violet Square features both a rave and a mess of blocks, and that enclosed instruction book looks just great. I do want to see how it plays out in an actual game, though. It'd probably be a great map for SABRE!
All jokes and memes aside, congrats to all the finalists, hopefully most of these can get onto ladder soon!
Congrats all! Most of the finalists I actually think look very solid. Only three of them I"m kind of on the fence about, Blackpink, Neo Tropicana & Arch of Janus. I'll write up some reviews on the finalists a little later or tomorrow, depending when I get some time.
Thanks for taking your time judging on this go, the pace feels better than tlmc8 for sure.
I can agree with most picks, though I did think there were definitely some stronger picks in a few categories: Maps like tropicana, sky garden and defenders kind of weird me out... they're decent maps but...
However arch of Janus is... uh... I pooped a small amount.. I think a good fix for next TLMC would be to not restrict players to one category.
I really had my hopes up and expected to see Ophilia or The Beneath make a special appearance. Oh well, that's my bad maybe for tlmc10? It'd be kool to have some feedback but I don't want to start a 100+ map feedback loop
A notable mentions addition to the thread would be nice though, anyone agree?
conceptually, if the game goes long enough, both players 'restart' into a standard map with the bottom left portion of the map blocked off by the map features and players sim city/ defense.
Arch of Janus is the dumbest thing I've ever seen, so it's probably going to end up on the ladder because Blizzard wants something that's "interesting" and it will somehow decide who wins a WCS tournament in game 7, because everyone will veto it. With the 12 worker start you spawn with your main fully saturated, which is just absurd. I'm pretty sure the rush distance is shorter than Steppes of War, and your main mining out in 5 minutes won't matter because no one will play any macro games. Zerg will be forced to do a queen drop build because you need to take a 3rd before the 5 minute mark.
On September 16 2017 11:13 Solar424 wrote: Arch of Janus is the dumbest thing I've ever seen, so it's probably going to end up on the ladder because Blizzard wants something that's "interesting" and it will somehow decide who wins a WCS tournament in game 7, because everyone will veto it. With the 12 worker start you spawn with your main fully saturated, which is just absurd. I'm pretty sure the rush distance is shorter than Steppes of War, and your main mining out in 5 minutes won't matter because no one will play any macro games. Zerg will be forced to do a queen drop build because you need to take a 3rd before the 5 minute mark.
Nah I think Janus is awful enough that even Blizzard won't touch it.
I'm testing Janus right now. You can have speed, a second queen, and a natural on the way by 1:45 while also having 6 lings at the enemy's natural ramp with a 13/12. I don't think that's fast enough to wall against with a standard SBS. Luckily, Terran will have so many minerals you can just build a wall with a supply depot and two barracks and be mining gas for reapers. This genuinely feels like a map that Blizzard would include in SC1, where there are 4 bases on the entire map.
Edit: The second supply depot finishes at the exact same time lings show up. That's with 13/12 though, if you go 12 pool the lings show up 5 seconds quicker. Also, Protoss can't get a Zealot out until 1:48. GLHF.
So I'll go through the maps I like and will review them. But figured I'd start with the maps I really dislike and make me question....
I dislike Blackpink, Neo Tropicana & Arch.
So here I go:
Blackpink:
There are so many damn chokes on this map that it makes me wonder when the player and judges thought of this map if they thought zerg existed? Every damn choke on this map is either 2x or 3x wide that there is no place at all to get good surrounds. If you take the vertical third you have two different 2FF wide chokes to defend, GG. If you take the 3rd that hugs your main you now have a shit load of ramps you have to defend against which makes it that much harder. Plus there are plenty of OP spots to put tanks to shell almost the entire 3rd or at least force you through tight chokes. This map NEEDS to be opened up. But hey, it's an Avex map, so 4/4 (okay not quite, but still.)
Neo Tropicana:
Hello 1 tank on the 3 or 9 bases and he's shelling your natural, hitting any flanks, it's close to your nat. I don't get it. I think judges are still in the "lezeal" phase where they jerk off to every lezeal map. If this was cross only, sure it works, but when the main "QQ" for many maps is "the ramp is too big, the space is too tight, the 3rd is too abusible" and then they include Neo Tropicana...such a joke. Even with terran pushes, I'll drop 1 tank by the rocks and push your natural which has rocks on it to force the tight choke. So annoying. The four middle bases will NEVER get taken. They are too exposed without enough reward. Then we look at the rocks in the middle? What do they serve? Nothing at all besides abusing the early game. Let's not even mention stalkers getting buffed in the new patch which make any type of blink timing with all the different paths and chokes on this map broken as shit. But hey, as I said. "Lezeal" map! Let's vote!
Arch of Janus:
I'm not even going to try to defend this map. This is one of the main reasons it really makes me question the TLMC judges. Are you serious? You bitch about other maps with their bad naturals or their unfavorable thirds and then you include this? For fucks sake... At least we know what map players will veto 99 out of 100 times. But hey, it's "new" because it has gold mains and naturals. Seriously, this map getting a finalist is the biggest joke that has happened since Biome.
___
Then, let's question two more maps. Sky Garden & Eastwatch.
Here is a quote from the TLMC post:
"For all categories, when deciding to utilize a gold base, make sure there are some sort of risk associated with them. Otherwise, gold minerals bases with low risk tend to usually favor Zerg over the other races."
Where the fuck are the risks for Sky Garden & Eastwatch golds? Why wouldn't zerg rush those gold bases as 3rds every game? "Well, there are rock towers that they can knock down." lol, yeah, have fun attacking that gold base where the zerg has a shit load more minerals to defend. "Well, you can attack from behind the gold base on Sky garden" .... this map is as big as Ron Jeremy's dick so good luck doing anything against that gold. My favorite thing about this scenario? "Well, in the iteration phase we can change this to regular minerals" Really? I could make my natural ramp smaller, I could choke off my third more, I could create less air space. Any good map maker could change their map to make it TLMC quality in 2 seconds if you told them what to change.
___
Every new map maker has things to consider, they have rules to follow, the judges tell you not to utilize maps a certain way. So you follow their input and then the reason you're disqualified is because "your 3rd is too easy" "the choke to your natural is too big" "the air space around your main is too large" yet you look at these other game breaking things and they just get glossed over.
___
Now, I love TLMC. I love the judges (monk, plexa, pengwin, KTV, templar, etc etc etc, you guys all deserve massive respect and I greatly appreciate everything you do for the community.) but come on. You flat out tell me one of the biggest weaknesses on one of my maps is the "3rd to 3rd is too straight" and therefore won't promote much army movement and then you vote in maps that have much bigger imbalances? Now I get it, it's really hard to narrow down ~150 maps to 16 in about 5 days but good lord. Shit, you flat out told me one of my maps was DQ'd because of "queen drops" being too OP. But hey, gold mains & naturals with 10 second rush distances is okay.
I'd love to judge a TLMC, but ffs...as a SC2 mapper, I'd prefer to get as much rewards as I can. (Still waiting for TLMC8 rewards btw...) If I could judge maps and enter maps to get some compensation for all the work I've done I would do it in a heartbeat.
Hell, Blizzard, I will create maps for you 24/7, Please invite me to join you team. I'll map make and create melee and campaign maps all day long. Instead, I have to spend time creating maps, only to get stupid excuses which apply to my map, but doesn't apply to others. "Your natural isn't safe enough but we'll include Arch of Janus..." "Your 3rd is too straight forward but I'll include Grime. "This map is too "standard" but we'll include Defender's Resort.
I love TLMC...I really do. I'll say it here. Monk & Plexa are the two Team Liquid guys I respect the most. But come on, some of the finalist maps that get chosen make me want to rage quit and never create another map again...
Congratulations to the finalists, I know there are so many maps to go through but I wish I knew the reasons why things weren't selected. It's unrealistic to expect feedback when there are so many entries but I still wonder.
Congrats to the other finalist looking forward to see the maps be played out! As always a few maps I have question marks next to but I guess we shall see how they play out.
I loved Dasan, i loved Ulrena, and I'm ready to love Janus.
Sometimes I feel like too many people here just love to go on autopilot and do their favorite builds on any map. I find a lot of the funnest things in starcraft is to adapt my style to the map, and maps like Dasan and Ulrena really allowed me to radically change what styles are viable. Either way, even if the map turns out to be a dud, I don't think we should rage at the judges for including it, because introducing these new concepts gives mapmakers tools that they can later incorporate to more standard maps.
Not surprised by a lot of the finalists, not surprised by Sid's post-game rant. (<3) Gotta be honest, I'm always bummed when some people get so many maps in the finals, but I'm happy to have something going for me. Congrats to all the other finalists, and thanks to the judges for all their work!
On September 16 2017 08:24 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Not a huge fan of this lot of finalists tbh, lots of the maps just feel a bit off. As for Arch of Janus it's positively awful and unworkable, but the judges seem to have a rule that they have to include at least one obvious disaster in each contest.
Just wait, Janus is gonna come around next Blizzcon to say hello.
It cant, because you too easily can make an Anus out of it...Memes incoming to hot! :-D
Here's my preliminary review of the maps. I'll probably write something else once I've seen how they all play out:
Backwater: Three bases behind a single choke isn't something I generally like, but I think it's executed in an interesting and novel manner yet still remaining quite standard. Positioned where it is makes defending aggression on the first three bases different from previous maps with three bases behind a choke, and having the third be the pocket rather than the natural is pretty cool--it makes defending things like ling drops a bit different. I don't like the fact that players are forced to expand in a set order with really no other options, but otherwise the middle is pretty cool. 7.25/10
Blackpink: I don't have much to say about Blackpink. All the angles of attack make it so the vertical third is probably the more favoured one, and there are too many straightline paths between bases to my taste, which makes army movement a bit boring. The map is pretty choke heavy which may cause problems in TvZ, but considering the amount of different paths, I (unlike Sidian) don't think it's a death knell for the map. This map doesn't excite me, but I think it's perfectly serviceable. 7.25/10
Defender's Resort: This map looks really crude and unsophisticated with gaping holes in the map covered by forests and a number of very large paths. There's no interesting army movement to be had when you have a bunch of giant lanes. There were some many better maps in this category, and this was by far Youngrustler's weakest submission, so I'm shocked to see the judges select it. 5/10 Port Aleksander was way better.
Neo Tropicana: Neo Tropicana has a bunch of problems. The natural is completely exposed to siege tank fire, and trying to wall off two ramps plus rocks is sure to be an interesting experience. Furthermore horizontal spawns is sure to be two base all-in central with these rush distances, vulnerable naturals and precarious thirds. The middle of the map is quite interesting (though taking those central bases seems dubious) it's a pity the main/nat/third have such problems. 3.5/10
Sky Garden: Sky Garden is quite a fun map conceptually though I have a few doubts about the execution. Holding fourth bases in horizontal spawns (horizontal? the spawns that aren't cross at any rate) seems difficult especially against drops. If you try for the lowground gold or the bases in front of it defending both that base and the main seem difficult, and any other possible fourths have their awkwardness to them. The long way around the map probably has the Galactic Process problem of no one using them. Lots of the implementation details of this map puzzle me, and the map just feels too large, so I'll tentatively give it a 6.5/10 while looking forward to being proven wrong.
Acid Plant: This map is quite small and all the bases are quite close together which makes me question how takeable all four of the center bases are. Probably somewhat takeable since both players will be busy expanding laterally, but the distances between bases combined with the layeout makes me wonder if circle syndrome is stirring in its grave. I do find the middle quite thoughfully layed out, but I feel like the map would benefit from being bigger overall. When you're cutting geysers from center gold bases for no reason other than the fact that they're getting in the way it makes me feel that way. Additionally there isn't any true open areas on this map, and flanking takes a long time so timing pushes against zerg might be quite strong. 6.5/10
Eastwatch: A lot of bases on this map feel like huge pains to defend. Like what's the point of those bases in the central tetris piece? They're on your side of the map, but the opponent can get to them faster than you can? And the bases that can be closed off completely by collapsible rocks; forcing a zerg to break down two sets of rocks against siege tanks and rocks if they want to defend that base sounds fun. The gold bases likewise feel like a huge trap in that tucked away position with the collapsible rocks that can be destroyed from across the wall. If you stick to a normal expansion pattern (vertically) things aren't too wonky, but it feels even then like the whole game revolves around breaking rocks, and worrying about units shooting from across walls, and which can only be reached by breaking more rocks. 5/10 unless you're Dustin Browder.
Grime: A novel expansion layout that isn't gimmicky is really appreciated. Some of the distances between bases might prove troublesome on the defense and the excess airspace isn't great, but the map feels really solid overall. I find the 1 width ramp a bit troublesome, since it makes dislodging an attacker camped there difficult. It isn't the splashiest or sexiest of maps, so I don't think it'll do well at all in the TLMC, but I like it a lot personally. 7.5/10
Catalyst: This is a slight twist on a super standard layout, but I do think it's done well especially in how it makes the central bases defendable. Not sure the rocks near the entrance of the natural are needed especially the collapsible rock towers (since no one is going to expand to the bases vertically adjacent to the mains early anyways. 7.5/10
Octane: Those islands exists exclusively to fill space around the edges of the map don't they... Not too fond of the thirds either--one feels too out there in the open, and the other feels too easily split off from the natural. The one-wide ramps feel weird too, and make things worse. All the bases in the corners are really close together and the middle of the map is boring.Overall the open areas feel really open, and the closed areas feel very closed, and it doesn't mesh too well. 6/10
Abiogenesis: The TLMC judges must have made a mistake since this looks like a rush map that doesn't suck. The really short rush distance with the narrow ramp is really well executed. This map manages both to be compact and feel rushy while not making expansions impossible to take. It's a pretty sweet map overall--very standard. 7.75/10
Battle on the Boardwalk: The superlong path around to the golds isn't something I particularly believe in. I think it'll be used to fuel gold-based powered cheese or not be taken, since defending it later is a pain especially with the long lane that is so easily forcefielded off. The middle of the map has a bunch of narrow passages that won't be used and then a bunch of bases that are really close together. I can see the idea of this map, but it isn't one I buy into personally. I just don't think it'll live up in practice. 6/10
God's Garden: Everything about this map tilts me from the ramps that look askew, to the decor and the layout. The fact that the main mineral line can be sieged from behind is questionable, but I think that in practice it'll be irritating but not map breaking since the siegeing army has to be so far out of position. Yet again the rocks feel a bit excessive making navigating the middle of the map pretty awkward. The lanes feel disconnected enough that armies will often get stuck in one lane and unable to react to armies heading to their main and forced to basetrade, but I guess the very strong watchtowers can help remedy that. Reapers have a lot of surface area to jump into the main, but that hasn't been that much of a concern in the meta recently. While I hate everything about this map I guess it isn't that bad objectively. 6.5/10
Anomaly: Mixed feelings about this map. The super-long map concept hasn't worked in the past, and this map could prove to be a complete split-map turtlefest. There's just not enough room to maneuver around the opponent. I'll give it credit for being new and having the potential to surprise, but 5/10
Arch of Janus: Fuck. I don't know where to start, so I won't try. 0/10
Neon Violet Square: Using holes on a map is a concept near and dear to my heart, and I do think that RQM has executed this idea in most respects much better than I did. I'm not fond of the pocket base behind the natural since holes there hold very little meaning. The layout is otherwise pretty nice and makes good (though light) use of the holes. 7.5/10
I think Sidian is definitely right in that sometimes maps don't make finalist for very minor things that could be easily changed + Show Spoiler +
(I remember last contest, a couple maps literally got ousted because the attacker's ramp to the 3rd was 2FF wide instead of 3 so carriers would supposedly be too strong. I shit you not lol.)
and wouldn't affect the whole of the map at all, yet other maps make finalists that probably need huge sweeping changes to be playable, and then they are afforded that opportunity in the iteration phase.
I've definitely thought the same thing myself before.
IMO the maps that shouldn't have made it are Anomaly, Arch of Janus, and maybe Eastwatch.
Anomaly - just way too turtley and uninteresting. It just doesn't do anything worth a damn. Why why why. Neg is a great mapmaker 99% of the time but I hate this map. It's got a pretty overview so that probably helped a bit, but come on guys.
Arch of Janus - really really cool concept but I think it needs to be scaled back a bit (maybe change the rock towers to rocks and have a small opening that can be blocked with a single 2x2 building, and also hopefully blizz would relax the mineral rules and let him reduce the mineral count so the rest of the map will be accessed a bit earlier than 5min. What else.. also increase the rush distance by another 10 seconds somehow. I think in the current state builds will be discovered where you literally cannot stop it and it's 100% autolose in certain MUs.
Eastwatch - it's really similar to interloper and terraform, I feel. Even though it's fairly different. I may end up being wrong on this one it's just.. we already have maps like this. This one doesn't bother me as much as the other 2 though.
-------------------------------------
Things I would change about the other maps:
Backwater - I know me and avex have discussed this before, but there's gotttta be a better way to do that natural. Also, while the map is pretty, its readability could be improved.
Blackpink - This map suffers a bit from "everywhere is almost the same width" syndrome. Needs a few more open spaces. Also @ the team, get an angled overview for this, it's a little hard to read from 90 degrees.
Defender's Resort - it's not my favorite map but I can't see anything obvious I would change without really looking at it at length.
Neo Tropicana - Consider making the 3/9 oclock areas lowground. I'm on the fence on this one since it would help the nat be a little safer but would make the thirds for zerg more harassable. Tough call. Move the 5:30/6:30/11:30/12:30 ramps out slightly to allow easier army movement around the town halls at those bases. Idk how to save the middle bases, probably won't be taken much, but if you make them golds it might be cancerous. Maybe just leave em and be ok with them almost never being taken. Adjust the far geysers on each nat, they are currently inefficient.
Sky Garden - Change the golds nearest your mains into normal bases. Remove, or change the other gold bases' areas to lowground and slam them against that wall to maximize harrassability Transform the outer ring into airspace (looking at the bottom, from about 5:30 to 3:30).
Acid Plant - nothing stands out to me atm, I'm pretty ok with these gold bases. If a zerg wants to take one it's like 2 seconds from the T/P's nat to either gold base so it's fine.
Catalyst - nothing stands out atm
Octane - one of my favorite finalists, small nitpick, I would consider changing the 2:30/8:30 ramps from 1FF to 2FF
Abiogenesis - nothing stands out atm
Battle on the Boardwalk - sidian already heard this part: adjust the main ramp and natural choke. I would also say, now that you've added rocks, I really wouldn't mind the back lanes where the corner golds are being widened slightly (except at the choke of course). I don't know that they have to be so narrow anymore.
God's Garden - reduce the main surface area, check diligently for bugs with the ramps.
Neon Violet Square - does the main mineral line need to be that close to the edge? Seems a bit cancerous for no good reason. We want to see the main features of the map used so why take that risk. 11:30/5:30 bases seem impossible to take ever, not sure what to do there.
Timmay's macro map I'd say the thirds were a little unsafe but it was better than a couple finalists. Changing those thirds a bit to make them safer isn't a difficult fix. I'm guessing they thought the concept was too similar to sequencer, which I can kind of see. But it's pretty different. You could probably make a similar argument for his Hobgoblin map as well (simply make one of the thirds safer and it's better than some of the finalists).
I think Meavis had a couple maps that could be argued for over a couple finalists. I liked this one even though it's super simple and has a couple small issues (12/6 bases are impossible, for instance)
Sidian's Blackwood Timbers is a pretty good map I think. That 9/3 o'clock base gives me a mapmaking stiffy The lighting is a bit dark but that is definitely an easy fix and not even something to consider really when judging.
Zweck and Youngrustler also had multiple good ones (besides young's map that got in), although I think the judges punished them a bit because they apparently absolutely did not want ultra-standard and those two submitted some maps that fit that mold.
Ziggurat's Yopico I feel is pretty underrated . It probably got put to pasture because they already took neon violet square. But maybe this map plays better, though it is much less aesthetically pleasing.
I think my Ancient Confines (new) or Crimson Aftermath (new) were both better than Anomaly and Janus in the new category. Shameless plug
Here's my preliminary review of the maps. I'll probably write something else once I've seen how they all play out:
Backwater: Three bases behind a single choke isn't something I generally like, but I think it's executed in an interesting and novel manner yet still remaining quite standard. Positioned where it is makes defending aggression on the first three bases different from previous maps with three bases behind a choke, and having the third be the pocket rather than the natural is pretty cool--it makes defending things like ling drops a bit different. I don't like the fact that players are forced to expand in a set order with really no other options, but otherwise the middle is pretty cool. 7.25/10
Blackpink: I don't have much to say about Blackpink. All the angles of attack make it so the vertical third is probably the more favoured one, and there are too many straightline paths between bases to my taste, which makes army movement a bit boring. The map is pretty choke heavy which may cause problems in TvZ, but considering the amount of different paths, I (unlike Sidian) don't think it's a death knell for the map. This map doesn't excite me, but I think it's perfectly serviceable. 7.25/10
Defender's Resort: This map looks really crude and unsophisticated with gaping holes in the map covered by forests and a number of very large paths. There's no interesting army movement to be had when you have a bunch of giant lanes. There were some many better maps in this category, and this was by far Youngrustler's weakest submission, so I'm shocked to see the judges select it. 5/10 Port Aleksander was way better.
Neo Tropicana: Neo Tropicana has a bunch of problems. The natural is completely exposed to siege tank fire, and trying to wall off two ramps plus rocks is sure to be an interesting experience. Furthermore horizontal spawns is sure to be two base all-in central with these rush distances, vulnerable naturals and precarious thirds. The middle of the map is quite interesting (though taking those central bases seems dubious) it's a pity the main/nat/third have such problems. 3.5/10
Sky Garden: Sky Garden is quite a fun map conceptually though I have a few doubts about the execution. Holding fourth bases in horizontal spawns (horizontal? the spawns that aren't cross at any rate) seems difficult especially against drops. If you try for the lowground gold or the bases in front of it defending both that base and the main seem difficult, and any other possible fourths have their awkwardness to them. The long way around the map probably has the Galactic Process problem of no one using them. Lots of the implementation details of this map puzzle me, and the map just feels too large, so I'll tentatively give it a 6.5/10 while looking forward to being proven wrong.
Acid Plant: This map is quite small and all the bases are quite close together which makes me question how takeable all four of the center bases are. Probably somewhat takeable since both players will be busy expanding laterally, but the distances between bases combined with the layeout makes me wonder if circle syndrome is stirring in its grave. I do find the middle quite thoughfully layed out, but I feel like the map would benefit from being bigger overall. When you're cutting geysers from center gold bases for no reason other than the fact that they're getting in the way it makes me feel that way. Additionally there isn't any true open areas on this map, and flanking takes a long time so timing pushes against zerg might be quite strong. 6.5/10
Eastwatch: A lot of bases on this map feel like huge pains to defend. Like what's the point of those bases in the central tetris piece? They're on your side of the map, but the opponent can get to them faster than you can? And the bases that can be closed off completely by collapsible rocks; forcing a zerg to break down two sets of rocks against siege tanks and rocks if they want to defend that base sounds fun. The gold bases likewise feel like a huge trap in that tucked away position with the collapsible rocks that can be destroyed from across the wall. If you stick to a normal expansion pattern (vertically) things aren't too wonky, but it feels even then like the whole game revolves around breaking rocks, and worrying about units shooting from across walls, and which can only be reached by breaking more rocks. 5/10 unless you're Dustin Browder.
Grime: A novel expansion layout that isn't gimmicky is really appreciated. Some of the distances between bases might prove troublesome on the defense and the excess airspace isn't great, but the map feels really solid overall. I find the 1 width ramp a bit troublesome, since it makes dislodging an attacker camped there difficult. It isn't the splashiest or sexiest of maps, so I don't think it'll do well at all in the TLMC, but I like it a lot personally. 7.5/10
Catalyst: This is a slight twist on a super standard layout, but I do think it's done well especially in how it makes the central bases defendable. Not sure the rocks near the entrance of the natural are needed especially the collapsible rock towers (since no one is going to expand to the bases vertically adjacent to the mains early anyways. 7.5/10
Octane: Those islands exists exclusively to fill space around the edges of the map don't they... Not too fond of the thirds either--one feels too out there in the open, and the other feels too easily split off from the natural. The one-wide ramps feel weird too, and make things worse. All the bases in the corners are really close together and the middle of the map is boring.Overall the open areas feel really open, and the closed areas feel very closed, and it doesn't mesh too well. 6/10
Abiogenesis: The TLMC judges must have made a mistake since this looks like a rush map that doesn't suck. The really short rush distance with the narrow ramp is really well executed. This map manages both to be compact and feel rushy while not making expansions impossible to take. It's a pretty sweet map overall--very standard. 7.75/10
Battle on the Boardwalk: The superlong path around to the golds isn't something I particularly believe in. I think it'll be used to fuel gold-based powered cheese or not be taken, since defending it later is a pain especially with the long lane that is so easily forcefielded off. The middle of the map has a bunch of narrow passages that won't be used and then a bunch of bases that are really close together. I can see the idea of this map, but it isn't one I buy into personally. I just don't think it'll live up in practice. 6/10
God's Garden: Everything about this map tilts me from the ramps that look askew, to the decor and the layout. The fact that the main mineral line can be sieged from behind is questionable, but I think that in practice it'll be irritating but not map breaking since the siegeing army has to be so far out of position. Yet again the rocks feel a bit excessive making navigating the middle of the map pretty awkward. The lanes feel disconnected enough that armies will often get stuck in one lane and unable to react to armies heading to their main and forced to basetrade, but I guess the very strong watchtowers can help remedy that. Reapers have a lot of surface area to jump into the main, but that hasn't been that much of a concern in the meta recently. While I hate everything about this map I guess it isn't that bad objectively. 6.5/10
Anomaly: Mixed feelings about this map. The super-long map concept hasn't worked in the past, and this map could prove to be a complete split-map turtlefest. There's just not enough room to maneuver around the opponent. I'll give it credit for being new and having the potential to surprise, but 5/10
Arch of Janus: Fuck. I don't know where to start, so I won't try. 0/10
Neon Violet Square: Using holes on a map is a concept near and dear to my heart, and I do think that RQM has executed this idea in most respects much better than I did. I'm not fond of the pocket base behind the natural since holes there hold very little meaning. The layout is otherwise pretty nice and makes good (though light) use of the holes. 7.5/10
Overall how I'd currently rank them:
Abiogenesis
Neon Violet Square
Grime
Catalyst
Backwater
Blackpink
Acid Plant
Sky Garden
God's Garden
Octane
Battle on the Boardwalk
Eastwatch
Defender's Resort
Anomaly
Neo Tropicana
Arch of Janus
Top 3 got 7.75, 7.5, and 7.5, damn tough crowd lol Glad to be in your top 3 though
Here's my preliminary review of the maps. I'll probably write something else once I've seen how they all play out:
Backwater: Three bases behind a single choke isn't something I generally like, but I think it's executed in an interesting and novel manner yet still remaining quite standard. Positioned where it is makes defending aggression on the first three bases different from previous maps with three bases behind a choke, and having the third be the pocket rather than the natural is pretty cool--it makes defending things like ling drops a bit different. I don't like the fact that players are forced to expand in a set order with really no other options, but otherwise the middle is pretty cool. 7.25/10
Blackpink: I don't have much to say about Blackpink. All the angles of attack make it so the vertical third is probably the more favoured one, and there are too many straightline paths between bases to my taste, which makes army movement a bit boring. The map is pretty choke heavy which may cause problems in TvZ, but considering the amount of different paths, I (unlike Sidian) don't think it's a death knell for the map. This map doesn't excite me, but I think it's perfectly serviceable. 7.25/10
Defender's Resort: This map looks really crude and unsophisticated with gaping holes in the map covered by forests and a number of very large paths. There's no interesting army movement to be had when you have a bunch of giant lanes. There were some many better maps in this category, and this was by far Youngrustler's weakest submission, so I'm shocked to see the judges select it. 5/10 Port Aleksander was way better.
Neo Tropicana: Neo Tropicana has a bunch of problems. The natural is completely exposed to siege tank fire, and trying to wall off two ramps plus rocks is sure to be an interesting experience. Furthermore horizontal spawns is sure to be two base all-in central with these rush distances, vulnerable naturals and precarious thirds. The middle of the map is quite interesting (though taking those central bases seems dubious) it's a pity the main/nat/third have such problems. 3.5/10
Sky Garden: Sky Garden is quite a fun map conceptually though I have a few doubts about the execution. Holding fourth bases in horizontal spawns (horizontal? the spawns that aren't cross at any rate) seems difficult especially against drops. If you try for the lowground gold or the bases in front of it defending both that base and the main seem difficult, and any other possible fourths have their awkwardness to them. The long way around the map probably has the Galactic Process problem of no one using them. Lots of the implementation details of this map puzzle me, and the map just feels too large, so I'll tentatively give it a 6.5/10 while looking forward to being proven wrong.
Acid Plant: This map is quite small and all the bases are quite close together which makes me question how takeable all four of the center bases are. Probably somewhat takeable since both players will be busy expanding laterally, but the distances between bases combined with the layeout makes me wonder if circle syndrome is stirring in its grave. I do find the middle quite thoughfully layed out, but I feel like the map would benefit from being bigger overall. When you're cutting geysers from center gold bases for no reason other than the fact that they're getting in the way it makes me feel that way. Additionally there isn't any true open areas on this map, and flanking takes a long time so timing pushes against zerg might be quite strong. 6.5/10
Eastwatch: A lot of bases on this map feel like huge pains to defend. Like what's the point of those bases in the central tetris piece? They're on your side of the map, but the opponent can get to them faster than you can? And the bases that can be closed off completely by collapsible rocks; forcing a zerg to break down two sets of rocks against siege tanks and rocks if they want to defend that base sounds fun. The gold bases likewise feel like a huge trap in that tucked away position with the collapsible rocks that can be destroyed from across the wall. If you stick to a normal expansion pattern (vertically) things aren't too wonky, but it feels even then like the whole game revolves around breaking rocks, and worrying about units shooting from across walls, and which can only be reached by breaking more rocks. 5/10 unless you're Dustin Browder.
Grime: A novel expansion layout that isn't gimmicky is really appreciated. Some of the distances between bases might prove troublesome on the defense and the excess airspace isn't great, but the map feels really solid overall. I find the 1 width ramp a bit troublesome, since it makes dislodging an attacker camped there difficult. It isn't the splashiest or sexiest of maps, so I don't think it'll do well at all in the TLMC, but I like it a lot personally. 7.5/10
Catalyst: This is a slight twist on a super standard layout, but I do think it's done well especially in how it makes the central bases defendable. Not sure the rocks near the entrance of the natural are needed especially the collapsible rock towers (since no one is going to expand to the bases vertically adjacent to the mains early anyways. 7.5/10
Octane: Those islands exists exclusively to fill space around the edges of the map don't they... Not too fond of the thirds either--one feels too out there in the open, and the other feels too easily split off from the natural. The one-wide ramps feel weird too, and make things worse. All the bases in the corners are really close together and the middle of the map is boring.Overall the open areas feel really open, and the closed areas feel very closed, and it doesn't mesh too well. 6/10
Abiogenesis: The TLMC judges must have made a mistake since this looks like a rush map that doesn't suck. The really short rush distance with the narrow ramp is really well executed. This map manages both to be compact and feel rushy while not making expansions impossible to take. It's a pretty sweet map overall--very standard. 7.75/10
Battle on the Boardwalk: The superlong path around to the golds isn't something I particularly believe in. I think it'll be used to fuel gold-based powered cheese or not be taken, since defending it later is a pain especially with the long lane that is so easily forcefielded off. The middle of the map has a bunch of narrow passages that won't be used and then a bunch of bases that are really close together. I can see the idea of this map, but it isn't one I buy into personally. I just don't think it'll live up in practice. 6/10
God's Garden: Everything about this map tilts me from the ramps that look askew, to the decor and the layout. The fact that the main mineral line can be sieged from behind is questionable, but I think that in practice it'll be irritating but not map breaking since the siegeing army has to be so far out of position. Yet again the rocks feel a bit excessive making navigating the middle of the map pretty awkward. The lanes feel disconnected enough that armies will often get stuck in one lane and unable to react to armies heading to their main and forced to basetrade, but I guess the very strong watchtowers can help remedy that. Reapers have a lot of surface area to jump into the main, but that hasn't been that much of a concern in the meta recently. While I hate everything about this map I guess it isn't that bad objectively. 6.5/10
Anomaly: Mixed feelings about this map. The super-long map concept hasn't worked in the past, and this map could prove to be a complete split-map turtlefest. There's just not enough room to maneuver around the opponent. I'll give it credit for being new and having the potential to surprise, but 5/10
Arch of Janus: Fuck. I don't know where to start, so I won't try. 0/10
Neon Violet Square: Using holes on a map is a concept near and dear to my heart, and I do think that RQM has executed this idea in most respects much better than I did. I'm not fond of the pocket base behind the natural since holes there hold very little meaning. The layout is otherwise pretty nice and makes good (though light) use of the holes. 7.5/10
Overall how I'd currently rank them:
Abiogenesis
Neon Violet Square
Grime
Catalyst
Backwater
Blackpink
Acid Plant
Sky Garden
God's Garden
Octane
Battle on the Boardwalk
Eastwatch
Defender's Resort
Anomaly
Neo Tropicana
Arch of Janus
Top 3 got 7.75, 7.5, and 7.5, damn tough crowd lol Glad to be in your top 3 though
Yeah. I'll basically give 8 to a map that I have no issues with, and above that it needs to impress me in some way. I think I gave Sequencer and Keres Passage >=8 last time. I think this time there are fewer awful maps, but the top end isn't quite as good.
Defender's Resort: This map looks really crude and unsophisticated with gaping holes in the map covered by forests and a number of very large paths. There's no interesting army movement to be had when you have a bunch of giant lanes. There were some many better maps in this category, and this was by far Youngrustler's weakest submission, so I'm shocked to see the judges select it. 5/10 Port Aleksander was way better.
Why it is less "sophisticated" and "crude" is because it was maybe a few months back is when Defender's Resort, so heres the back story about that map it was made purely out of trying to appeal to the beach craze that was last TLMC. Along with that the name to even further apply that mental trigger to remind people of Defender's Landing since I know that is everyones favorite rush map. Anyways had low confidence in the map, but history repeats once again and some how it makes it in since it caught the eye of the judges. I really love Port and Norad both are recent work and Port especially I was pulling for it, but oh well maybe a few tweaks and it can make a comeback.
im not being nostalgic... we had a lot better maps back then. It doesn't matter if blizzard made them or community members.
these days just more and more weird maps make it through.
Im honestly really thankful for TLMC and i think there are still some very good mapmakers out there, but im just disappointed at the latest seasons of sc2.
it almost feels like judges are too biased sometimes. In the latest TLMC's we often had finalists and even winner maps that were so terrible.
Backwater: Good map, maybe will make it to ladder someday, but is a little hard to read and dark. (Btw Avex: 2 entrances to nat with a "pocket" third... just saying. Thats exactly(!!) what you critised on my WIP map lol. I mean i like it..).
8/10
Blackpink: Awesome map, Altough i find the bright lines a little bit distracting. The 4th is imo not so easy to defend, i dont know if its more a standard map than a macro map
7.5/10
Defender's Resort: Easy four bases, but then theres no mid somehow... if the one player attacks to top and the other guys on the bottom the attack path to enemy bases is a LOT shorter then to the other guys army, which very likely leads to basetrades. The maps attack paths are wayy too short for a macro map, its more like a turtly standard map (almost 1 position to defend 4 bases). The players need to be further away from each other, which would open up the space for some interesting mid in the map. Visual design seems not very innovative (one texture for all the highground, just standard beach tileset kinda..)
5/10
Neo Tropicana: Mid bases can never be hold. At least reward player that take those with gold patches. The Natural gets destroyed by Siegetank pushes. Come on hows this supposed to be a macro map, you cant even hold the nat, and the 3th is super far away and so tight, you cant even properly put your army on its highground to defend it cuz its so cramped. If you move your army there to defend the 3th it can be caught in the mid on the tight 2x choke. The 4th is crazy open and has a highground next to it. How are Zergs supposed to defend 3th+Main against drops!? The path for them is super long. Not a macro map at all, i dont see players get up to 4 Bases on this one. Yeah the mid may look funky, but it takes a shit ton of time the clean the whole bunch of rocks, its just to many rocks to influence the game. Why not just use 1 diagonal one instead of 2 6x6 rocks and get the same effect. Whats this map doing in the finalists.
4/10
Sky Garden: 3th is a lot to hard to hold for a Macro map. The one is forward and super open, the other one has highground next to it and LOS blockers, that favor surprise attacks and runbyes. And "no spawn restrictions."?? I tought maps get dissmissed when "Queen drop to OP" because here we have it with close air spawns... or "proxy" tempest from proxying inside your own main or whatever. Nice visual design though.
5/10
Standard Maps:
Acid Plant: I like it, but it think it also needs some kind of a mid area. Bases are just hugging each other in the mid almost. So theres like no time to react, when the opponent attacks you somewhere, what leads into basetrades or chilling at home with you army all the time (which is boring). Theres no moving around the map with your army on this, because you immediately run into one of the opponents bases kinda. 6.5/10
Eastwatch: I dont know who ppl can not see this, but you can siege nat and 3th with an invisble(highground), hard to acces liberator without lib range. (and the gold too, but thats fine, its a gold). 2 patches of the nat are in range of the "invisble" lib. Map looks nice. Too much fancy (collapsible rock) stuff going on for me, but thats just personal taste. Judges seem to like it..
7/10
Grime: Good to read map, Somewhat new 3-5 Base layout, cool. 7-8th Base feel like a little bit off the hook, they probably dont come into play very often. Minor issue: Theres like 0 chance for Zergs to make a walloff and map has tons of air space.
7/10
Catalyst: My favourite. Love it. Just the "Coda" map the ladder needs!
9/10
Octane: Cool map, just too many bases in the edges. just remove one (the midst one) and make a ramp to the island, so its not an island any more. And it is too chocked in the edges, ramps should be wider imo...
7/10
Rush:
Abiogenesis: 7/10 Good Map, altough i think its gonna play out pretty standard most of the times (which is fine.)
Battle on the Boardwalk: Cool Ideas, dont know how it plays out, too crazy for me personally, not a big fan.
6/10
God's Garden: Interesting map, i think im fine with it! Not sure if rush map, seems more like a standard map, whats the map bounds of that btw!?.... Aestehtics are Eye-Cancer sry even though i like the skewed ramps.. Main has a lot of airspace to cover (thinking of siege/blink/drops..) You cant catch a drop before it lands basically. Not a fan of the 2nd highgrounds in the mid, they make the mid a little awkward. I think removing the bases on the 2nd highround in the mid and just make it very low ground just makes the map a lot better, 7Bases is enough i think.. Like it is now the movement in the mid is very restricted. And the shitload of rocks and cooling towers in the mid seem kinda pointless to me as well.. but the the overall layout is mostly fine.
6.5/10
NEW:
Anomaly: Cool map, but i think too turtly sadly, gonna be map split mostly and i dont really see the point of the island, and the map doesnt really have sth "new" tbh...
6.5/10
Arch of Janus: Idea is cool to have a rush map the becomes a standard map, but its just not gonna work in so many ways. And even the design of the standard rest of the map is just not good, proportions seems off, zero love to the aesthetics... And the judges comment: "Yes, this was created by the creator of Dasan Station." reads like a poor justification to me.
2/10
Neon Violet Square: I think i like this one, cool new idea without going over the top. We need to see how its gonna play out in the end, but the layout is solid.
7,5/10
Just my few toughts. (all written before tournament btw..) GG!
On September 16 2017 19:48 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: If TLMC maps keep having such a low quality standard, i would prefer to just rotate out approved blizzard maps every season.
I prefer to play on maps like akilon wastes, NewKirk TE, dusk towers, coda, etc... instead of having to deal with so bad maps over and over again.
Sometimes it's better to stick with the old but good instead of adding new maps just for the sake of having something completely new.
Koreans think the same way, thats why we still see maps like overgrowth or frost.
Just objectively good maps.
Coda, Overgrowth, Frost and to a high degree Newkirk TE are all non-blizzard maps (original newkirk was blizzard, but it was so heavily edited by a community mapmaker to get to that point that it's basically a community map).
Some other non-Blizzard maps in SC2 history that were pretty much universally praised:
Abyssal Reef (some say best map that has made it to ladder in LotV) Cloud Kingdom King Sejong Station Daybreak Planet S Whirlwind Echo Habitation Station Bel'Shir Vestige Ohana
On September 16 2017 21:43 Elentos wrote: You published God's Garden as Dogs Garden
he said he couldn't publish it as god's garden because it had the word "god" in it. he had a similar problem with arch of janus and "anus" lolol
although not really sure why other people are able to publish as these kinds of names and not him. Maybe KR region has more restrictions on this than other regions?
On September 16 2017 21:44 Zweck wrote: Sky Garden: 3th is a lot to hard to hold for a Macro map. The one is forward and super open, the other one has highground next to it and LOS blockers, that favor surprise attacks and runbyes. And "no spawn restrictions."?? I tought maps get dissmissed when "Queen drop to OP" because here we have it with close air spawns... or "proxy" tempest from proxying inside your own main or whatever. Nice visual design though.
5/10
Close spawns are disabled, per his map thread. edit: jk it must have been in discord a while back. I don't see it in his thread.
On September 16 2017 21:44 Zweck wrote: Sky Garden: 3th is a lot to hard to hold for a Macro map. The one is forward and super open, the other one has highground next to it and LOS blockers, that favor surprise attacks and runbyes. And "no spawn restrictions."?? I tought maps get dissmissed when "Queen drop to OP" because here we have it with close air spawns... or "proxy" tempest from proxying inside your own main or whatever. Nice visual design though.
5/10
Close spawns are disabled, per his map thread. edit: jk it must have been in discord a while back. I don't see it in his thread.
A small issue about God's Garden: stasis ward can be placed on the larger ramps along the central route, is this supposed to happen? They can't be placed on smaller ramps like in other maps, only larger ramps have the issue.
On September 17 2017 01:10 Zweck wrote: well, the TLMC description says "no spawn restrictions"...
That can be interpreted different ways. It could mean cross only, close spawn allowed, etc. either the judges didn't elaborate on that or we were just misinformed based on what is or isn't allowed.
I doubt Janus will go anywhere. People freaked out about Eremita last time and it didn't go anywhere at all so.
On September 17 2017 01:22 yht9657 wrote: A small issue about God's Garden: stasis ward can be placed on the larger ramps along the central route, is this supposed to happen? They can't be placed on smaller ramps like in other maps, only larger ramps have the issue.
There are known issues with the weird ramps, I think they're being worked on atm and if can't be fixed then I assume will be replaced with normal ones.
Newsunshine just confirmed Sky Garden is all spawns in discord, sorry for my misinformation earlier.
On September 16 2017 19:57 nesta-kun wrote: WOOO! Super stoked to have made it to the finals! - congratz to everyone! (brb putting some bragging bs in my signature :D)
I feel like Janus would work better (or at all) if you started with a base either side and you had to decide which side you would focus your production for the first 5 minutes and multitask both sides. But i guess that would be against contest rules?
On September 17 2017 06:29 Zaros wrote: I feel like Janus would work better (or at all) if you started with a base either side and you had to decide which side you would focus your production for the first 5 minutes and multitask both sides. But i guess that would be against contest rules?
maybe that could be a separate map. sounds interesting
Aside from Janus (sorry there are just a lot of balance issues with that one) these maps are all very awesome. Like someone else said the maps are getting better every season which is exactly what sc2 needs. Good job judges and mappers.
Janus deserves a try because it is one of the most interesting map concepts ever. Oh and Battle on the boardwalk is one of the prettiest maps i've ever played in.
On September 16 2017 11:31 blunderfulguy wrote: Grats everybody, looking forward to seeing the games! I hope there are some great games and some disgustingly broken ones as well.
we need a lil controversy says shaddy
On September 16 2017 12:49 MoonStone1 wrote: Congratulations to the finalists, I know there are so many maps to go through but I wish I knew the reasons why things weren't selected. It's unrealistic to expect feedback when there are so many entries but I still wonder.
i don't, feedbuck is a lonesome cowboy and a long long way from home...
On September 16 2017 14:24 TheFish7 wrote: Anomaly wins, do not pass go, do not collect $200
On September 16 2017 08:24 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Not a huge fan of this lot of finalists tbh, lots of the maps just feel a bit off. As for Arch of Janus it's positively awful and unworkable, but the judges seem to have a rule that they have to include at least one obvious disaster in each contest.
Just wait, Janus is gonna come around next Blizzcon to say hello.
It cant, because you too easily can make an Anus out of it...Memes incoming too hot! :-D
i can see it now.."here the toss champion poured all all he had into uranus!"
On September 17 2017 00:23 IronManSC wrote: Good job finalists. Some weird maps but hopefully the normal ones make it through to ladder lol. Better luck next year like always
On September 17 2017 06:29 Zaros wrote: I feel like Janus would work better (or at all) if you started with a base either side and you had to decide which side you would focus your production for the first 5 minutes and multitask both sides. But i guess that would be against contest rules?
maybe that could be a separate map. sounds interesting
Make sure to put a Zarosbot on the map if you make it
Didn't get to be a part of the judge voting process since I was busy with Montreal. Will try to be part of it next time but here's my opinion on my experience playing as zerg so far in the tourney:
Backwater Really good straight up map with some interesting corner design and the 3rd base design works better than expected. It's kinda dark and a little depressing to play on, but it's only a small drawback as it should be pretty smooth to play on layout wise in all match-ups. Size seems very appropriate.
Defender's Resort This map has a very unique 1-2-3-4 choice, definitely uncomfortably violent in the opening stages but definitely better than Paladino Terminal and Defender's Landing. 3rd base is a bit nasty to secure. Biggest drawback is too tight ramps on this map in general. Midfield is also kinda new and weird, so until more evidence comes along this one is a solid 3.5 with some fresh stuff.
Sky Garden Got a 1/3 chance spawn in air positions against a Terran and it was an uncomfortable blast from the past of 2011. Close by air didn't work well then, and with boost vacs it's even worse now. The map looks beautiful and has a pretty solid 1-2-3 layout. However it is oversized and the coinflip spawn positions make it unsuitable for competition. I can see this map doing better if it was compressed down to 60% or so with some changes, but unfortunately at this point it looks a bit more like a 2v2 map. Even if you were to force cross positions it would still be affected by the coinflip problem, as Z it'd be beneficial to have pure vertical spawns instead of 'close'.
Eastwatch One of the coolest 1234567 concepts with great execution of rock towers. Drawback for zerg is 4th base feels very awkward to take and there doesn't seem to be a non-exposed solution for 1234 (vs terran for example). A vertical 4th blue base and a bit of change to the corners would do wonders on this map, but it would also dumb it down ofc. A very technical and hard to play map and definitely seems a bit too large. The map being difficult might be a good thing over time, but for now I have to rate it a bit lower than what might turn out to be its potential.
Grime This rating is incredibly zerg biased so take it with a grain of salt. I was positive to this one at first but securing a 4th exposes the main too hard. There's too much airspace and drop potential, so this map carries a lot of the gameplay issues you'd see on Catallena and Merry Go Round. Moving the main bases to the corner would make this map a lot better to play for Zerg. Aside from the droppable main, it's not so bad. But a centered and droppable main just does a lot of damage gameplay wise. The 1-2-3-4 is not zerg friendly enough despite the long rush distance to justify a centered main with this airspace. I might be overthinking the balance part, but the thing that comes to mind with this type of main-to-4th-layout is that playing it can be incredibly tedious and sometimes anti-fun.
Abiogenesis This map is really good but needs larger ramps especially leading into the midfield. If it was opened up ever so slightly, this one would be very solid. Great base count, cool layout, just a tad too choked up. Also a bit concerned about the akilon wastes-esque high ground above the vertical 3rd, but i suppose the alternative vs terran would be to go triangle-horizontal rather than vertical. Nice map and a great alternative/upgrade to fill Interloper's slot.
Anomaly A pleasant surprise really. I don't like island bases at all and think the corner design on this map should've been different. I'd love to just see a large bridge leading to the corner, to be honest. It's hard to explain this map, but it played out better than expected and was kinda fun. The meta might become stale on this map real fast due to its defensive 50/50 nature, but that's nothing Daybreak hasn't exposed us to, and until games reach that stage it's really not that bad. Cool idea, good execution, but it's too soon to introduce islands to the map meta imo, there's enough other stuff to figure out first.
Arch of Janus I vetoed this one twice, it's still 2-3 years too soon to be considering maps like these for competitive play. First we have to fight spawn coinflips and avoiding repeating mistakes from 2011, etc.
Neon Violet Square Cool visuals. Its centered main already makes things a bit tricky for zerg though (what I wrote above about Grime - not anywhere near as prevalent here, but corner mains are preferred). Attack lanes and layout somewhat similar to Prion Terraces, but obviously a very different map. A lot of quirks on this map that seem a bit tedious. For Zerg, the inbase natural is very unattractive until 3-4 base is established due to low mineral count. Not the biggest issue, but not that great. The 4x rocks makes the choice to destroy rocks seem like a punishment just because it takes so long, similar to Interloper. Imo this rock setup has to be changed to 1x rock max. I'm still not sold on square traps, especially the one leading into the in-base natural make no sense to me. I think strategic placement of holes or bridges is a better alternative than square traps. The trap lines are kinda cool, but fields I have a hard time with for now. There's a lot of ideas here and potentially cool stuff, but I don't know where to begin exactly about suggesting improvements without basically deleting a lot of stuff. I also had trouble with one of the mineral patches on the 4th base below the top spawn's ramp, in 3D it's actually difficult to click that part. Maybe some concepts from this map can be brought to the future, but for now the centered main, xl size, inbase natural, and overload of rocks/features is a bit much to process. And in the XL category there's a lot of competition from maps like Sequencer, Ascension, Acolyte, and I think I'd put Ascension far above this one for now for competition.
Note: Only maps i played today, might update with more later
This is one of the many reasons Snute is such a boss. (That and your constant love of Abyssal <3) Pro players tend to get really upset over map designs yet most of them never actually give their thoughts or opinions on a map until it hits ladder and by then it's too late to do any changes. If there was more communications with these maps, especially during a tournament like TLMC where changes can happen, we would probably overall have better and stronger maps going into the future.
With that said, I hope you get some time to play Boardwalk because I'd love to get your initial thoughts on it, especially if you think PvZ and ZvZ early games would be too difficult/broken or if Late game would get too stale.
On September 19 2017 02:56 Liquid`Snute wrote: Grime This rating is incredibly zerg biased so take it with a grain of salt. I was positive to this one at first but securing a 4th exposes the main too hard. There's too much airspace and drop potential, so this map carries a lot of the gameplay issues you'd see on Catallena and Merry Go Round. Moving the main bases to the corner would make this map a lot better to play for Zerg. Aside from the droppable main, it's not so bad. But a centered and droppable main just does a lot of damage gameplay wise. The 1-2-3-4 is not zerg friendly enough despite the long rush distance to justify a centered main with this airspace. I might be overthinking the balance part, but the thing that comes to mind with this type of main-to-4th-layout is that playing it can be incredibly tedious and sometimes anti-fun.
Thanks for the feedback (although I'm guessing you're going with past intuitions since your game vs inno didn't have any air/drop play on it at all. or have some of the pros been playing extra games on these maps offstream?)
I thought this was my weakest map submission in some regards (best aesthetics probably, but layout-wise I thought the other 3 submissions were stronger) but it's the one that got in somehow so we have to make the best of it. (I really think we could have had some sick games on either of the other maps but what can you do )
I actually have a giant revamp of the map coming for the iteration phase (if anyone remembers Avex's Namaste changes a couple TLMCs ago.. it's maybe not a completely new map like that, but almost) that involves putting the main in the corner amongst other things so hopefully it will be a better layout then, maybe even a good map. We'll see though.
Personally, I think Pandora was the best Avex map, but Backwater and Blackpink are cool too. Some other maps I was excited about were Red Dragon, Ametrin and, especially, Blackwood Timbers. I actually think Blackwood Timbers may have been my favorite overall, but I'm usually a big fan of the Sidian maps, gotta say.
after playing a bit on them and watching some tournament games I have to say that God's Garden, Defenders Resort, Catalyst and Acid Plant are by far my favorite maps and far ahead of the competition. Hope these 4 make ladder.
Defender's Resort [image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading][image loading] This map has a very unique 1-2-3-4 choice, definitely uncomfortably violent in the opening stages but definitely better than Paladino Terminal and Defender's Landing. 3rd base is a bit nasty to secure. Biggest drawback is too tight ramps on this map in general. Midfield is also kinda new and weird, so until more evidence comes along this one is a solid 3.5 with some fresh stuff.
Thanks for the feedback, I too have noticed most games the struggle is around the third bases and I have yet to see a game go past securing the 3rd and going onto 4th base and more. I was suggested to give zerg an area where they can place an overlord to have an area so they can watch what comes out of the natural. That change will go through and I will continue to watch how the map is played. Thanks again for the feedback and glad you enjoy the map!
On September 19 2017 05:16 TiberiusA wrote: I actually think Blackwood Timbers may have been my favorite overall, but I'm usually a big fan of the Sidian maps, gotta say.
Blackwood Timbers was (one of) my favorite(s) as well and I'm sad it didn't make it. Perfect map to replace Abyssal.
Battle on the boardwalk looks amazing but the layout around the natural seems hell for PvZ (probably also ZvZ).
Sent my iterations for Blackpink and Backwater. Backwater recieved basically the most minimal changes, I don't think there were any glaring issues.
Blackpink had a few more changes:
Main adjusted, mineral line tucked horizontally by one cell relative to their spawn. Weird square on the side removed.
Re-designed triangular third base, removed pillar and opened the area up, moved the 'behind' ramp to be more direct, rocks added to the most direct path's ramp. Mineral line made diagonal Rock tower removed.
Vertical third rock tower removed.
Many of the main pathways have been expanded and widened for more open engagements.
Many of the lit-up decals and lights were toned back a little.
When u build as terran in the lower buttom on the ramp 2 depots and a rax which is a so called wall the tanks wont be able to come out its to passable. PLS CHANGE