5 Protoss, 6 Terran and just 3 Zerg join INnoVation and sOs in the second and final Super Tournament of the year. With added pressure this time of this being the last chance to get into Blizzcon, the pressure is ramping up in Korea and the tournament kicks off 28th September!
On September 17 2017 21:11 _Epi_ wrote: Innovations only downfall could be if Classic is getting beaten by aLive, since he is Innovations Cryptonite. But I doubt Classic looses to aLive.
There is no way aLive beats Inno here, this ain't ST1
On September 17 2017 21:11 _Epi_ wrote: Innovations only downfall could be if Classic is getting beaten by aLive, since he is Innovations Cryptonite. But I doubt Classic looses to aLive.
People forget Classic rekt Inno in SSL the other week. Made him look like a complete scrub
On September 17 2017 21:11 _Epi_ wrote: Innovations only downfall could be if Classic is getting beaten by aLive, since he is Innovations Cryptonite. But I doubt Classic looses to aLive.
Inno would eat Alive alive if they meet now. His TvT isn't weak as it was before.
On September 17 2017 22:35 AzAlexZ wrote: wait, why didn't Neeb, Scarlett and Major attempt to qualify for this?
that's weird, also wonder why they didn't attend at GSL finals either ?
On September 17 2017 21:11 _Epi_ wrote: Innovations only downfall could be if Classic is getting beaten by aLive, since he is Innovations Cryptonite. But I doubt Classic looses to aLive.
People forget Classic rekt Inno in SSL the other week. Made him look like a complete scrub
But Inno practiced his TvP a lot for the gsl finals, probably even with Classic.
On September 17 2017 21:11 _Epi_ wrote: Innovations only downfall could be if Classic is getting beaten by aLive, since he is Innovations Cryptonite. But I doubt Classic looses to aLive.
People forget Classic rekt Inno in SSL the other week. Made him look like a complete scrub
But Inno practiced his TvP a lot for the gsl finals, probably even with Classic.
But that would also mean he thinks Classic is better than sOs
This tournament has the potential to be very dramatic considering how close people are in points. It's going to be quite the battle for the last Blizzcon spot.
On September 17 2017 23:06 sashkata wrote: This tournament has the potential to be very dramatic considering how close people are in points. It's going to be quite the battle for the last Blizzcon spot.
sOs is given quite the headstart though with everyone who could conceivably overtake him either playing each other or not qualifying.
I see a lot of calculations being made regarding who will qualify for that last Blizzcon spot. The way I calculate, if Maru, aLive, or Classic wins ST2, sOs would have to be in the final to get the 8th spot. If Rogue wins it, sOs would have to at least make the semis. sOs is at 5000 points, so even if he loses in the first round, Maru or aLive would have to reach the semis to pass him. Classic or Rogue would have to reach the finals to get that many points. Remember that sOs and INnoVation get 0 points for their automatic seed. They have to win a match at ST2 in order to earn any points. It doesn't matter for Inno, but it does for the Trickster. Just a few thoughts. Let me know if I have calculated incorrectly. Here is the math. The points indicate that is what each would have if they exited ST2 in the given round.
1) Stats v. soO - - Have I seen a ZvP match that wasn't this one all year? 2) Zest v. herO - - Magic only happens at HSC. This will be microking versus throwtoss. 3) Maru v. Rogue - - Seriously? Both need WCS KR points if they want to go to Blizzcon, and basically, now one of them is guaranteed to advance at least to the Ro8 - - annoying sOs as well. Like, I know anti-nepotism is strong in S. Korea, but do they have to bash Jin Air so hard for hosting SSL this year? 4) INnoVation v. TIME. More like Innovation vs the clock. Betting 99% on 3-0.
Just my not-so-quiet opinion. These bad-taste set-ups should not be.
On September 18 2017 01:55 chipmonklord17 wrote: Were matches decided at random? How is Ryung the 2nd worst player if its seeded? I get time being ranked 16th but how is Ryung 15th?
No idea if it's seeded but Ryung at 15th seems like it would be correct.
On September 17 2017 21:11 _Epi_ wrote: Innovations only downfall could be if Classic is getting beaten by aLive, since he is Innovations Cryptonite. But I doubt Classic looses to aLive.
People forget Classic rekt Inno in SSL the other week. Made him look like a complete scrub
But Inno practiced his TvP a lot for the gsl finals, probably even with Classic.
Inno probably practiced with Classic for the GSL finals. I still think Classic has a chance although I would favour Inno
On September 18 2017 01:55 chipmonklord17 wrote: Were matches decided at random? How is Ryung the 2nd worst player if its seeded? I get time being ranked 16th but how is Ryung 15th?
No idea if it's seeded but Ryung at 15th seems like it would be correct.
Based on what? He's not the second lowest in WCS standings nor does he have the 2nd worst GSL season 3 performance
On September 18 2017 01:55 chipmonklord17 wrote: Were matches decided at random? How is Ryung the 2nd worst player if its seeded? I get time being ranked 16th but how is Ryung 15th?
No idea if it's seeded but Ryung at 15th seems like it would be correct.
Based on what? He's not the second lowest in WCS standings nor does he have the 2nd worst GSL season 3 performance
On September 17 2017 23:58 pvsnp wrote: ByuN and TY both failing to qualify, ouch. Seems like the other Horsemen grow weaker as Inno grows stronger.
Maybe there's a fixed pool of Terran power and Inno is taking it all for himself
Inno's biggest ever slump happened during ByuN's biggest ever peak (mid 2016). Coincidence? I think not
Clearly the Terrans secretly agree to take turns giving 1 Terran all their combined power.
When Inno announced that he took some time off to work on his TvT, he really meant that he won the power struggle of internal Terran politics, and became the recipient of the power of all Terrans.
On September 18 2017 01:55 chipmonklord17 wrote: Were matches decided at random? How is Ryung the 2nd worst player if its seeded? I get time being ranked 16th but how is Ryung 15th?
No idea if it's seeded but Ryung at 15th seems like it would be correct.
Based on what? He's not the second lowest in WCS standings nor does he have the 2nd worst GSL season 3 performance
Based on my opinion of the players qualified.
Thank god we use such objective measures of seeding
On September 18 2017 01:55 chipmonklord17 wrote: Were matches decided at random? How is Ryung the 2nd worst player if its seeded? I get time being ranked 16th but how is Ryung 15th?
No idea if it's seeded but Ryung at 15th seems like it would be correct.
Based on what? He's not the second lowest in WCS standings nor does he have the 2nd worst GSL season 3 performance
Based on my opinion of the players qualified.
Thank god we use such objective measures of seeding
Sadly they didn't actually ask me to seed this tournament.
On September 18 2017 02:41 KR_4EVR wrote: There are _ matches that shouldn't be happening.
1) Stats v. soO - - Have I seen a ZvP match that wasn't this one all year? 2) Zest v. herO - - Magic only happens at HSC. This will be microking versus throwtoss. 3) Maru v. Rogue - - Seriously? Both need WCS KR points if they want to go to Blizzcon, and basically, now one of them is guaranteed to advance at least to the Ro8 - - annoying sOs as well. Like, I know anti-nepotism is strong in S. Korea, but do they have to bash Jin Air so hard for hosting SSL this year? 4) INnoVation v. TIME. More like Innovation vs the clock. Betting 99% on 3-0.
Just my not-so-quiet opinion. These bad-taste set-ups should not be.
It doesn't matter when Maru and Rogue meet; at least one of them won't make Blizzcon because they're both competing for the 8th Blizzcon spot (herO is qualified with at least 5950, while Maru can get to 5925 max), for which they both have to get first place in order to qualify.
On the other hand, sOs's worst enemy is Maru simply because Maru is closest in point to sOs. sOs must hope Maru doesn't get to semifinal if he does not advance, or to the final if he gets knocked out in the quaterfinal, or win the tournament.
In short, in the best case scenario for JinAir, only one JinAir player can make it to Blizzcon.
On September 18 2017 01:55 chipmonklord17 wrote: Were matches decided at random? How is Ryung the 2nd worst player if its seeded? I get time being ranked 16th but how is Ryung 15th?
No idea if it's seeded but Ryung at 15th seems like it would be correct.
Based on what? He's not the second lowest in WCS standings nor does he have the 2nd worst GSL season 3 performance
Based on my opinion of the players qualified.
Thank god we use such objective measures of seeding
Sadly they didn't actually ask me to seed this tournament.
I'm not sure they asked anyone tbh, or they would have gotten a better seeded event
On September 17 2017 21:11 _Epi_ wrote: Innovations only downfall could be if Classic is getting beaten by aLive, since he is Innovations Cryptonite. But I doubt Classic looses to aLive.
People forget Classic rekt Inno in SSL the other week. Made him look like a complete scrub
But Inno practiced his TvP a lot for the gsl finals, probably even with Classic.
practicing for sos seems very different from practicing for classic...
Although I am extremely disappointed in much of the bracket match-ups, I am honestly really stoked for this tournament. Should be pretty hype all around, and there's a fair chance for one or two JAGW players to make really deep runs. Unfortunately, as others have already mentioned, there appears the possibility of only one of the three making Blizzcon. Here's to hoping that this at least can become reality. I need more Koreans to be rooting for after all, seeing as ByuN won't be there, high chance Maru doesn't make it etc etc...
On September 18 2017 08:47 Dracover wrote: i feel another $o$ finals appearance incoming.
Only if he keeps practicing like preparing for GSL.
Well looking at his potential matchups, if he beats ryung (most likely) He will likely get 2 PvPs against Hero and Stats.
Still, sOs needs to keep up his practice intensity level as preparing for GSL playoffs. His PvT is unstable anyway these days. But it will be hard for a guy who just lost a close bo7 final to adjust his mood.
On September 18 2017 08:47 Dracover wrote: i feel another $o$ finals appearance incoming.
Only if he keeps practicing like preparing for GSL.
Well looking at his potential matchups, if he beats ryung (most likely) He will likely get 2 PvPs against Hero and Stats.
assuming herO gets past Zest that is
Actually Zest advances to next round is a better scenario for both of their fans. If Zest claims he is back, he better beat sOs in a bo5 mirror match as he usually do. If sOs claims he is still competitive towards Blizzcon, he better beat Zest in same bo5 mirror match as he never did before. herO is already in Blizzcon anyway, he advances to next round will only be beneficial to sOs potentially, no any hype exists.
For my part I tried HARD to watch Wcs Foreigners, but it was just unwatchable... how can True or Nerchio be in Blizzcon while Maru Rogue and Classic are battling for a spot...
On September 18 2017 17:27 Mun_Su wrote: For my part I tried HARD to watch Wcs Foreigners, but it was just unwatchable... how can True or Nerchio be in Blizzcon while Maru Rogue and Classic are battling for a spot...
you can consider Blizzcon as Olympic or football Worldcup with paticipants from all countries/regions, not neccessarily all the best ones. Just make it clear, if you want high quality games, watch GSL, SSL and other Korean tournaments. Ro16 and ro8 Blizzcon are more of a showmatch while the true competitive games are ro4 and finals.
So I think Inno has an easy sweep on his side of the bracket, I actually feel really bad for TIME, doing all this hard work just to get drawn with Inno in the first game lol. sOs also has a good bracket I think, I think it'll be sOs vs the winner of Dark/Stats to face Inno in the finals. sOs massively favoured in PvP. Still hoping my boy Dark can come through and wreck a ton of toss to get to the finals. I think he can get revenge on Inno in ZvT from the GSL.
I find this year frustrating. I just can't take it. Maru (the genius) and Rogue (the genius) will beat each other (sighing) in a ro16? While 8 guys from WCS Circuit are not even close with them. I can't take it. Just can't.
On September 18 2017 17:27 Mun_Su wrote: For my part I tried HARD to watch Wcs Foreigners, but it was just unwatchable... how can True or Nerchio be in Blizzcon while Maru Rogue and Classic are battling for a spot...
you can consider Blizzcon as Olympic or football Worldcup with paticipants from all countries/regions, not neccessarily all the best ones. Just make it clear, if you want high quality games, watch GSL, SSL and other Korean tournaments. Ro16 and ro8 Blizzcon are more of a showmatch while the true competitive games are ro4 and finals.
In football the regions get positions for participants based on their quality. That's why Europe has 40 % of spots(33 % in 2026). And we're talking about football where there is South America(12 countries + 3 territories get 4.5 spots and 6(!!!) in the future). While Europe is just 10 % of the population of Earth and houses around 25 % of the total sovereign recognized states in the world.
Comparing this system to football is offensive as even corrupted FIFA acknowledges there's a difference in skill.
On September 18 2017 17:51 Synchronize` wrote: So I think Inno has an easy sweep on his side of the bracket, I actually feel really bad for TIME, doing all this hard work just to get drawn with Inno in the first game lol. sOs also has a good bracket I think, I think it'll be sOs vs the winner of Dark/Stats to face Inno in the finals. sOs massively favoured in PvP. Still hoping my boy Dark can come through and wreck a ton of toss to get to the finals. I think he can get revenge on Inno in ZvT from the GSL.
Classic is definitely a stone in Inno's way. And TIME... He'd have quite a hard time against anybody there IMO.
On September 18 2017 17:15 DieuCure wrote: Funny how redditors change their mind.
This format is a bad idea from the beginning, but they start to open their eyes two years later because ...
Sure players like Nerchio True Major etc dont deserve a spot to blizzcon. They arent even top 30 world ...
To be fair /r/starcraft is a putrid cesspit of idiocy.
I've seen people downvoted hard simply for stating that they like to watch the best games, with no insults, trolling or passive aggression.
Reddit in general is a terrible, terrible platform for discussion (exception being the heavily moderated niche subreddits) because dissenting opinion is generally buried regardless of how articulate, polite or even objectively correct (where applicable) it might be. And sometimes you get the opposite effect, which can be just as bad depending on the context.
I think ST2 seeds are fine but not perfect ofc SoS should be able to secure his spot or maybe classic if hes on fire Region lock shouldnt have ever been introduced but its hard to turn back now i still enjoy watching both korean and foreigners but im a bit disappointed by the results of the foreign tournaments this year
lots of r/starcraft fanboys loved foreigners and the region lock, and then as soon as ByuN fails to get in they change their mind lol
I will say it's tragic that Maru/Rogue/Classic/ByuN can't get in while TRUE does. Someone who could lose 0-4 to any of them. I know I've said this 1000 times but a 12/4 split much better in terms of seeding. We get the few foreigners that actually stand a chance (neeb, serral, elazer), without cutting of koreans that are simply better than any circuit competitor. Having True, violet etc at blizzcon just looks bad
Edit: or just use the new warchest $$$ to have more players at blizzcon.
On September 18 2017 17:53 engesser1 wrote: I find this year frustrating. I just can't take it. Maru (the genius) and Rogue (the genius) will beat each other (sighing) in a ro16? While 8 guys from WCS Circuit are not even close with them. I can't take it. Just can't.
Might as well go back to invitational like the days of yore.
As long as sOs makes it, I'm happy. If not, it's all about Serral. (Barcraft Hki plz!)
On September 18 2017 17:53 engesser1 wrote: I find this year frustrating. I just can't take it. Maru (the genius) and Rogue (the genius) will beat each other (sighing) in a ro16? While 8 guys from WCS Circuit are not even close with them. I can't take it. Just can't.
Might as well go back to invitational like the days of yore.
How can you post something like this with a straight face?
Blizzcon is closer to an invitational than to a pure meritocratic tournament simply because only 8 players from the highest level, most competitive region can attend.
On September 18 2017 17:15 DieuCure wrote: Funny how redditors change their mind.
This format is a bad idea from the beginning, but they start to open their eyes two years later because ...
Sure players like Nerchio True Major etc dont deserve a spot to blizzcon. They arent even top 30 world ...
To be fair /r/starcraft is a putrid cesspit of idiocy.
I've seen people downvoted hard simply for stating that they like to watch the best games, with no insults, trolling or passive aggression.
Reddit in general is a terrible, terrible platform for discussion (exception being the heavily moderated niche subreddits) because dissenting opinion is generally buried regardless of how articulate, polite or even objectively correct (where applicable) it might be. And sometimes you get the opposite effect, which can be just as bad depending on the context.
Obviously, this suberddit ( and reddit in general ) represents the quintessence of dominant good-thinking without a real line of conduct, if not gaining karma by any means following the movements caused by the shepherds.
On September 18 2017 17:27 Mun_Su wrote: For my part I tried HARD to watch Wcs Foreigners, but it was just unwatchable... how can True or Nerchio be in Blizzcon while Maru Rogue and Classic are battling for a spot...
you can consider Blizzcon as Olympic or football Worldcup with paticipants from all countries/regions, not neccessarily all the best ones. Just make it clear, if you want high quality games, watch GSL, SSL and other Korean tournaments. Ro16 and ro8 Blizzcon are more of a showmatch while the true competitive games are ro4 and finals.
In football the regions get positions for participants based on their quality. That's why Europe has 40 % of spots(33 % in 2026). And we're talking about football where there is South America(12 countries + 3 territories get 4.5 spots and 6(!!!) in the future). While Europe is just 10 % of the population of Earth and houses around 25 % of the total sovereign recognized states in the world.
Comparing this system to football is offensive as even corrupted FIFA acknowledges there's a difference in skill.
Doesn't Korea also make up 0.7% population of the world and get 8 out of 16 slots in Blizzcon also ?
On September 18 2017 17:27 Mun_Su wrote: For my part I tried HARD to watch Wcs Foreigners, but it was just unwatchable... how can True or Nerchio be in Blizzcon while Maru Rogue and Classic are battling for a spot...
you can consider Blizzcon as Olympic or football Worldcup with paticipants from all countries/regions, not neccessarily all the best ones. Just make it clear, if you want high quality games, watch GSL, SSL and other Korean tournaments. Ro16 and ro8 Blizzcon are more of a showmatch while the true competitive games are ro4 and finals.
In football the regions get positions for participants based on their quality. That's why Europe has 40 % of spots(33 % in 2026). And we're talking about football where there is South America(12 countries + 3 territories get 4.5 spots and 6(!!!) in the future). While Europe is just 10 % of the population of Earth and houses around 25 % of the total sovereign recognized states in the world.
Comparing this system to football is offensive as even corrupted FIFA acknowledges there's a difference in skill.
Doesn't Korea also make up 0.7% population of the world and get 8 out of 16 slots in Blizzcon also ?
Representive in terms of number of top players.
It's a video game, not the olympics. The places should go to the most skilled players. If you wanna see country vs country watch Nation Wars, WeSG, or GSL vs TW
On September 18 2017 17:27 Mun_Su wrote: For my part I tried HARD to watch Wcs Foreigners, but it was just unwatchable... how can True or Nerchio be in Blizzcon while Maru Rogue and Classic are battling for a spot...
you can consider Blizzcon as Olympic or football Worldcup with paticipants from all countries/regions, not neccessarily all the best ones. Just make it clear, if you want high quality games, watch GSL, SSL and other Korean tournaments. Ro16 and ro8 Blizzcon are more of a showmatch while the true competitive games are ro4 and finals.
In football the regions get positions for participants based on their quality. That's why Europe has 40 % of spots(33 % in 2026). And we're talking about football where there is South America(12 countries + 3 territories get 4.5 spots and 6(!!!) in the future). While Europe is just 10 % of the population of Earth and houses around 25 % of the total sovereign recognized states in the world.
Comparing this system to football is offensive as even corrupted FIFA acknowledges there's a difference in skill.
Doesn't Korea also make up 0.7% population of the world and get 8 out of 16 slots in Blizzcon also ?
Representive in terms of number of top players.
It's a video game, not the olympics. The places should go to the most skilled players. If you wanna see country vs country watch Nation Wars, WeSG, or GSL vs TW
If you wanna watch the most skilled players watch SSL/GSL/korean weekenders. Same argumentation style Is it completely "fair" that foreigners get 8 spots if we only look at the relative skill levels? No. Do foreigners have the exact same opportunities to get as good as koreans? No. There is no objective fairness in all of this.
Guys, BlizzCon is fine, even when it would be better to make BlizzCon as: 4 top Koreans from GSL and SSL 4 top foreigners from WCS 8 top players from Korean and WCS rankings combined That would be this year:
4 Koreans: Stats Gumiho Innovation Dark
4 Foreigners: Neeb Elazer Serral Snute
8 combined: soO 7525 TY 7500 herO 5950 sOs 5000 ByuN 4950 Maru 4650 aLive 4625 Classic 4425 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Solar 4425 Rogue 4325 Nerchio 3710 ByuL 3425 Kelazhur 3250
On September 18 2017 17:27 Mun_Su wrote: For my part I tried HARD to watch Wcs Foreigners, but it was just unwatchable... how can True or Nerchio be in Blizzcon while Maru Rogue and Classic are battling for a spot...
you can consider Blizzcon as Olympic or football Worldcup with paticipants from all countries/regions, not neccessarily all the best ones. Just make it clear, if you want high quality games, watch GSL, SSL and other Korean tournaments. Ro16 and ro8 Blizzcon are more of a showmatch while the true competitive games are ro4 and finals.
In football the regions get positions for participants based on their quality. That's why Europe has 40 % of spots(33 % in 2026). And we're talking about football where there is South America(12 countries + 3 territories get 4.5 spots and 6(!!!) in the future). While Europe is just 10 % of the population of Earth and houses around 25 % of the total sovereign recognized states in the world.
Comparing this system to football is offensive as even corrupted FIFA acknowledges there's a difference in skill.
Doesn't Korea also make up 0.7% population of the world and get 8 out of 16 slots in Blizzcon also ?
Representive in terms of number of top players.
It's a video game, not the olympics. The places should go to the most skilled players. If you wanna see country vs country watch Nation Wars, WeSG, or GSL vs TW
If you wanna watch the most skilled players watch SSL/GSL/korean weekenders. Same argumentation style Is it completely "fair" that foreigners get 8 spots if we only look at the relative skill levels? No. Do foreigners have the exact same opportunities to get as good as koreans? No. There is no objective fairness in all of this.
I do watch GSL/SSL. My point is that blizzcon is THE event of the year. It has the biggest prizepool/viewship/audience/hype/historical impact. You win blizzcon you will always be remembered for it.
That's why it should be the best players only, no one should get an easy seed. You want to see a "representation" of the entire world at one event? That's what WeSG did and it turned out...well... a bit boring to say the least
I don't care if you argue foreigners don't have the same opportunities to get good or whatever. I'm sure there are sc2 players in random countries that have no chance to get good due to unreliable internet/ no LAN events or whatever. Doesn't mean they should get an easy blizzcon seed. No one should
On September 19 2017 07:36 DieuCure wrote: Worst statement ever Diabolique, the amount of points paid wasnt the same.
- Remove region lock
or
- WCS circuit champions only attend to Blizzcon
This seems like a better way to go about it. Balance the blizzcon numbers around skill from the different regions. An 12/4 split would be okay, or a 16/8 etc. We want SOME foreigners there for the hype etc, and so people can cheer for the underdog or whatever. But an 8/8 split is too much
I just don't understand people defending TRUE and Kela getting blizzcon seeds over Classic or Maru. We saw what happened last year with ByuN vs Violet, or Dark vs Drogo, or TY vs Elazer etc. It's bloody ridiculous. Is that really better for viewership?
On September 18 2017 17:27 Mun_Su wrote: For my part I tried HARD to watch Wcs Foreigners, but it was just unwatchable... how can True or Nerchio be in Blizzcon while Maru Rogue and Classic are battling for a spot...
you can consider Blizzcon as Olympic or football Worldcup with paticipants from all countries/regions, not neccessarily all the best ones. Just make it clear, if you want high quality games, watch GSL, SSL and other Korean tournaments. Ro16 and ro8 Blizzcon are more of a showmatch while the true competitive games are ro4 and finals.
In football the regions get positions for participants based on their quality. That's why Europe has 40 % of spots(33 % in 2026). And we're talking about football where there is South America(12 countries + 3 territories get 4.5 spots and 6(!!!) in the future). While Europe is just 10 % of the population of Earth and houses around 25 % of the total sovereign recognized states in the world.
Comparing this system to football is offensive as even corrupted FIFA acknowledges there's a difference in skill.
Doesn't Korea also make up 0.7% population of the world and get 8 out of 16 slots in Blizzcon also ?
Representive in terms of number of top players.
It's a video game, not the olympics. The places should go to the most skilled players. If you wanna see country vs country watch Nation Wars, WeSG, or GSL vs TW
If you wanna watch the most skilled players watch SSL/GSL/korean weekenders. Same argumentation style Is it completely "fair" that foreigners get 8 spots if we only look at the relative skill levels? No. Do foreigners have the exact same opportunities to get as good as koreans? No. There is no objective fairness in all of this.
I do watch GSL/SSL. My point is that blizzcon is THE event of the year. It has the biggest prizepool/viewship/audience/hype/historical impact. You win blizzcon you will always be remembered for it.
That's why it should be the best players only, no one should get an easy seed. You want to see a "representation" of the entire world at one event? That's what WeSG did and it turned out...well... a bit boring to say the least
I don't care if you argue foreigners don't have the same opportunities to get good or whatever. I'm sure there are sc2 players in random countries that have no chance to get good due to unreliable internet/ no LAN events or whatever. Doesn't mean they should get an easy blizzcon seed. No one should
But foreigners don't even get an "easy" blizzcon seed. It's not like we invite the best player out of every country. There is a tournament circuit you have to compete in and only the top8 get a spot. Are these 8 actually in the top16 of the world? No probably not but we aren't talking about some randoms getting into blizzcon here either (which basically happened with WESG) Do we only want a tournament scene in korea? Right now we have two scenes so it's just natural that people out of both scenes should be at blizzcon. It's arguable if the foreign scene "deserves" 8 spots but atm it's a simple split, that seems decent at least.
It's funny that i argue FOR the foreigners btw because i actually am not invested in wcs at all. I still think it only can be positive for starcraft to have the wcs scene
I personally hope the region-lock to go away but the reality is Blizzard will never make that happen. Maybe it is not a bad thing. Having foreigners at BlizzCon can be entertaining and to show that not just Koreans can play SC2 at the highest level.
However, I do think Blizzard can improve the current system a bit. For example, allowing only Top 4 from each region to go straight to BlizzCon. Then, combine the next 8 players in the ranking (5 to 12) from each region and divide them into 4 groups. Top 2 from each group will advance to BlizzCon. That way, we will make sure that some players from 9 to 12 which normally will never have a chance to go to BlizzCon in current system have a chance to get themselves a spot at BlizzCon. Also, that will help with the complain that some players from Top 8 don't deserve to be at BC. Well, now they have to through the pre-BC group stage to make it to BC.
On September 19 2017 07:36 DieuCure wrote: Worst statement ever Diabolique, the amount of points paid wasnt the same.
- Remove region lock
or
- WCS circuit champions only attend to Blizzcon
That is easy. Balance the number of points given ... But otherwise, 4+4 winners and the 8 remaining based on performances for all is ideal.
Diabolique, at first I loved your idea, but then I realized:
Even if the points were balanced.. if you have, for example, Inno and a couple other players utterly dominate in Korea one year, you could theoretically have more World players than Korea players at Blizzcon, as all the Korean points went to less players. If all the world players were of equal skill, regardless of how good they are, they could take more spots. So this system would only reward the territory (Korea or World) with more top players that have equal skill to each other, not the most absolute skill overall. If that makes sense....
The best idea I've read so far is 12/4 or 10/6 - there would still be hype because it's foreigners against Korea, which rarely happens (this year was an exception, but only at select times). The 4 foreigners who get in are the only 4 who'd have a shot anyway, which is kind of the point of having a tournament in the first place.
Also, only champions from WCS should go though. In case of repeating champions one could imagine a consolidation "tournament" between the remaining top 4? Like a RR group bo. 5? Maybe?
On September 18 2017 17:27 Mun_Su wrote: For my part I tried HARD to watch Wcs Foreigners, but it was just unwatchable... how can True or Nerchio be in Blizzcon while Maru Rogue and Classic are battling for a spot...
you can consider Blizzcon as Olympic or football Worldcup with paticipants from all countries/regions, not neccessarily all the best ones. Just make it clear, if you want high quality games, watch GSL, SSL and other Korean tournaments. Ro16 and ro8 Blizzcon are more of a showmatch while the true competitive games are ro4 and finals.
In football the regions get positions for participants based on their quality. That's why Europe has 40 % of spots(33 % in 2026). And we're talking about football where there is South America(12 countries + 3 territories get 4.5 spots and 6(!!!) in the future). While Europe is just 10 % of the population of Earth and houses around 25 % of the total sovereign recognized states in the world.
Comparing this system to football is offensive as even corrupted FIFA acknowledges there's a difference in skill.
Doesn't Korea also make up 0.7% population of the world and get 8 out of 16 slots in Blizzcon also ?
Representive in terms of number of top players.
It's a video game, not the olympics. The places should go to the most skilled players. If you wanna see country vs country watch Nation Wars, WeSG, or GSL vs TW
If you wanna watch the most skilled players watch SSL/GSL/korean weekenders. Same argumentation style Is it completely "fair" that foreigners get 8 spots if we only look at the relative skill levels? No. Do foreigners have the exact same opportunities to get as good as koreans? No. There is no objective fairness in all of this.
I do watch GSL/SSL. My point is that blizzcon is THE event of the year. It has the biggest prizepool/viewship/audience/hype/historical impact. You win blizzcon you will always be remembered for it.
That's why it should be the best players only, no one should get an easy seed. You want to see a "representation" of the entire world at one event? That's what WeSG did and it turned out...well... a bit boring to say the least
I don't care if you argue foreigners don't have the same opportunities to get good or whatever. I'm sure there are sc2 players in random countries that have no chance to get good due to unreliable internet/ no LAN events or whatever. Doesn't mean they should get an easy blizzcon seed. No one should
But foreigners don't even get an "easy" blizzcon seed. It's not like we invite the best player out of every country. There is a tournament circuit you have to compete in and only the top8 get a spot. Are these 8 actually in the top16 of the world? No probably not but we aren't talking about some randoms getting into blizzcon here either (which basically happened with WESG) Do we only want a tournament scene in korea? Right now we have two scenes so it's just natural that people out of both scenes should be at blizzcon. It's arguable if the foreign scene "deserves" 8 spots but atm it's a simple split, that seems decent at least.
It's funny that i argue FOR the foreigners btw because i actually am not invested in wcs at all. I still think it only can be positive for starcraft to have the wcs scene
It's a hell of a lot easier for foreigners than for koreans. You think TRUE would be getting top 8 if he stayed in korea? Or Elazer, Kela, and Special wouldn't be losing in the GSL ro32 every season?
I'm not against the region lock anymore. I just think that giving half the seeds to Circuit just results in a shitty blizzcon ro16, and is unfair to the players in korea that work harder and are better as a result
edit: my point is that getting a blizzcon spot without even being a top 20 player of that year counts as an easy seed
On September 18 2017 17:27 Mun_Su wrote: For my part I tried HARD to watch Wcs Foreigners, but it was just unwatchable... how can True or Nerchio be in Blizzcon while Maru Rogue and Classic are battling for a spot...
you can consider Blizzcon as Olympic or football Worldcup with paticipants from all countries/regions, not neccessarily all the best ones. Just make it clear, if you want high quality games, watch GSL, SSL and other Korean tournaments. Ro16 and ro8 Blizzcon are more of a showmatch while the true competitive games are ro4 and finals.
In football the regions get positions for participants based on their quality. That's why Europe has 40 % of spots(33 % in 2026). And we're talking about football where there is South America(12 countries + 3 territories get 4.5 spots and 6(!!!) in the future). While Europe is just 10 % of the population of Earth and houses around 25 % of the total sovereign recognized states in the world.
Comparing this system to football is offensive as even corrupted FIFA acknowledges there's a difference in skill.
Doesn't Korea also make up 0.7% population of the world and get 8 out of 16 slots in Blizzcon also ?
Representive in terms of number of top players.
It's a video game, not the olympics. The places should go to the most skilled players. If you wanna see country vs country watch Nation Wars, WeSG, or GSL vs TW
If you wanna watch the most skilled players watch SSL/GSL/korean weekenders. Same argumentation style Is it completely "fair" that foreigners get 8 spots if we only look at the relative skill levels? No. Do foreigners have the exact same opportunities to get as good as koreans? No. There is no objective fairness in all of this.
I I forgot foreigners can only practice 6 hours a day, imagine what they could do if they had the chance to practice as much as koreans, so unfair.
On September 18 2017 17:27 Mun_Su wrote: For my part I tried HARD to watch Wcs Foreigners, but it was just unwatchable... how can True or Nerchio be in Blizzcon while Maru Rogue and Classic are battling for a spot...
you can consider Blizzcon as Olympic or football Worldcup with paticipants from all countries/regions, not neccessarily all the best ones. Just make it clear, if you want high quality games, watch GSL, SSL and other Korean tournaments. Ro16 and ro8 Blizzcon are more of a showmatch while the true competitive games are ro4 and finals.
In football the regions get positions for participants based on their quality. That's why Europe has 40 % of spots(33 % in 2026). And we're talking about football where there is South America(12 countries + 3 territories get 4.5 spots and 6(!!!) in the future). While Europe is just 10 % of the population of Earth and houses around 25 % of the total sovereign recognized states in the world.
Comparing this system to football is offensive as even corrupted FIFA acknowledges there's a difference in skill.
Doesn't Korea also make up 0.7% population of the world and get 8 out of 16 slots in Blizzcon also ?
Representive in terms of number of top players.
It's a video game, not the olympics. The places should go to the most skilled players. If you wanna see country vs country watch Nation Wars, WeSG, or GSL vs TW
If you wanna watch the most skilled players watch SSL/GSL/korean weekenders. Same argumentation style Is it completely "fair" that foreigners get 8 spots if we only look at the relative skill levels? No. Do foreigners have the exact same opportunities to get as good as koreans? No. There is no objective fairness in all of this.
I do watch GSL/SSL. My point is that blizzcon is THE event of the year. It has the biggest prizepool/viewship/audience/hype/historical impact. You win blizzcon you will always be remembered for it.
That's why it should be the best players only, no one should get an easy seed. You want to see a "representation" of the entire world at one event? That's what WeSG did and it turned out...well... a bit boring to say the least
I don't care if you argue foreigners don't have the same opportunities to get good or whatever. I'm sure there are sc2 players in random countries that have no chance to get good due to unreliable internet/ no LAN events or whatever. Doesn't mean they should get an easy blizzcon seed. No one should
But foreigners don't even get an "easy" blizzcon seed. It's not like we invite the best player out of every country. There is a tournament circuit you have to compete in and only the top8 get a spot. Are these 8 actually in the top16 of the world? No probably not but we aren't talking about some randoms getting into blizzcon here either (which basically happened with WESG) Do we only want a tournament scene in korea? Right now we have two scenes so it's just natural that people out of both scenes should be at blizzcon. It's arguable if the foreign scene "deserves" 8 spots but atm it's a simple split, that seems decent at least.
It's funny that i argue FOR the foreigners btw because i actually am not invested in wcs at all. I still think it only can be positive for starcraft to have the wcs scene
It's a hell of a lot easier for foreigners than for koreans. You think TRUE would be getting top 8 if he stayed in korea? Or Elazer, Kela, and Special wouldn't be losing in the GSL ro32 every season?
I'm not against the region lock anymore. I just think that giving half the seeds to Circuit just results in a shitty blizzcon ro16, and is unfair to the players in korea that work harder and are better as a result
edit: my point is that getting a blizzcon spot without even being a top 20 player of that year counts as an easy seed
In a vacuum it is harder to become good enough for top 8 in korea, sure. But simply saying (again) that it's only the hard work of koreans which does that is kinda ridiculous. They live in korea, have the korean ladder to practice on, most of them had kespa teamhouses to train in, etc. The korean infrastructure directly helped them succeed. The end result is true though, koreans have more "skill" on average. Does that mean that they should get more out of blizzcon? Maybe. The main problem still is the split tournament structure and scene though. As long as all the players don't play in the same tournaments results are messy and inaccurate. That's how it is. Havign the best of both scenes compete at blizzcon seems like a decent solution even if it doesn't reflect the skill levels perfectly but as i am not sure if it even has to because i think the main argument of "how hard it is to get there" isn't nearly as straightfoward as you guys wanna imply.
On September 18 2017 17:27 Mun_Su wrote: For my part I tried HARD to watch Wcs Foreigners, but it was just unwatchable... how can True or Nerchio be in Blizzcon while Maru Rogue and Classic are battling for a spot...
you can consider Blizzcon as Olympic or football Worldcup with paticipants from all countries/regions, not neccessarily all the best ones. Just make it clear, if you want high quality games, watch GSL, SSL and other Korean tournaments. Ro16 and ro8 Blizzcon are more of a showmatch while the true competitive games are ro4 and finals.
In football the regions get positions for participants based on their quality. That's why Europe has 40 % of spots(33 % in 2026). And we're talking about football where there is South America(12 countries + 3 territories get 4.5 spots and 6(!!!) in the future). While Europe is just 10 % of the population of Earth and houses around 25 % of the total sovereign recognized states in the world.
Comparing this system to football is offensive as even corrupted FIFA acknowledges there's a difference in skill.
Doesn't Korea also make up 0.7% population of the world and get 8 out of 16 slots in Blizzcon also ?
Representive in terms of number of top players.
It's a video game, not the olympics. The places should go to the most skilled players. If you wanna see country vs country watch Nation Wars, WeSG, or GSL vs TW
If you wanna watch the most skilled players watch SSL/GSL/korean weekenders. Same argumentation style Is it completely "fair" that foreigners get 8 spots if we only look at the relative skill levels? No. Do foreigners have the exact same opportunities to get as good as koreans? No. There is no objective fairness in all of this.
I I forgot foreigners can only practice 6 hours a day, imagine what they could do if they had the chance to practice as much as koreans, so unfair.
Yes that is all there is to it, i can see that you thought about it a long time, respect! In the imaginery talking about the fairness of blizzcon blizzcon you would definitely be in the top 8 of most hard working people.
On September 18 2017 17:27 Mun_Su wrote: For my part I tried HARD to watch Wcs Foreigners, but it was just unwatchable... how can True or Nerchio be in Blizzcon while Maru Rogue and Classic are battling for a spot...
you can consider Blizzcon as Olympic or football Worldcup with paticipants from all countries/regions, not neccessarily all the best ones. Just make it clear, if you want high quality games, watch GSL, SSL and other Korean tournaments. Ro16 and ro8 Blizzcon are more of a showmatch while the true competitive games are ro4 and finals.
In football the regions get positions for participants based on their quality. That's why Europe has 40 % of spots(33 % in 2026). And we're talking about football where there is South America(12 countries + 3 territories get 4.5 spots and 6(!!!) in the future). While Europe is just 10 % of the population of Earth and houses around 25 % of the total sovereign recognized states in the world.
Comparing this system to football is offensive as even corrupted FIFA acknowledges there's a difference in skill.
Doesn't Korea also make up 0.7% population of the world and get 8 out of 16 slots in Blizzcon also ?
Representive in terms of number of top players.
It's a video game, not the olympics. The places should go to the most skilled players. If you wanna see country vs country watch Nation Wars, WeSG, or GSL vs TW
If you wanna watch the most skilled players watch SSL/GSL/korean weekenders. Same argumentation style Is it completely "fair" that foreigners get 8 spots if we only look at the relative skill levels? No. Do foreigners have the exact same opportunities to get as good as koreans? No. There is no objective fairness in all of this.
I do watch GSL/SSL. My point is that blizzcon is THE event of the year. It has the biggest prizepool/viewship/audience/hype/historical impact. You win blizzcon you will always be remembered for it.
That's why it should be the best players only, no one should get an easy seed. You want to see a "representation" of the entire world at one event? That's what WeSG did and it turned out...well... a bit boring to say the least
I don't care if you argue foreigners don't have the same opportunities to get good or whatever. I'm sure there are sc2 players in random countries that have no chance to get good due to unreliable internet/ no LAN events or whatever. Doesn't mean they should get an easy blizzcon seed. No one should
But foreigners don't even get an "easy" blizzcon seed. It's not like we invite the best player out of every country. There is a tournament circuit you have to compete in and only the top8 get a spot. Are these 8 actually in the top16 of the world? No probably not but we aren't talking about some randoms getting into blizzcon here either (which basically happened with WESG) Do we only want a tournament scene in korea? Right now we have two scenes so it's just natural that people out of both scenes should be at blizzcon. It's arguable if the foreign scene "deserves" 8 spots but atm it's a simple split, that seems decent at least.
It's funny that i argue FOR the foreigners btw because i actually am not invested in wcs at all. I still think it only can be positive for starcraft to have the wcs scene
It's a hell of a lot easier for foreigners than for koreans. You think TRUE would be getting top 8 if he stayed in korea? Or Elazer, Kela, and Special wouldn't be losing in the GSL ro32 every season?
I'm not against the region lock anymore. I just think that giving half the seeds to Circuit just results in a shitty blizzcon ro16, and is unfair to the players in korea that work harder and are better as a result
edit: my point is that getting a blizzcon spot without even being a top 20 player of that year counts as an easy seed
In a vacuum it is harder to become good enough for top 8 in korea, sure. But simply saying (again) that it's only the hard work of koreans which does that is kinda ridiculous. They live in korea, have the korean ladder to practice on, most of them had kespa teamhouses to train in, etc. The korean infrastructure directly helped them succeed. The end result is true though, koreans have more "skill" on average. Does that mean that they should get more out of blizzcon? Maybe. The main problem still is the split tournament structure and scene though. As long as all the players don't play in the same tournaments results are messy and inaccurate. That's how it is. Havign the best of both scenes compete at blizzcon seems like a decent solution even if it doesn't reflect the skill levels perfectly but as i am not sure if it even has to because i think the main argument of "how hard it is to get there" isn't nearly as straightfoward as you guys wanna imply.
It is though. All of the top 8 foreigners that tried to win in korea failed. The best any did was GSL ro32
I'm cool with foreigners getting to blizzcon. If they work hard enough and reach a level to deserve it. As far as I'm concerned, guys like TRUE and kelazur havn't done that. It feels like blizzard is truly fucking over players that have worked harder over the years and gotten better.
Also, even if it's easier to get good in korea than anywhere else. The competition is several times harder, which outways that by a large margin. It is much more difficult for a player to live in korea for a while and get top 8, than to live in europe for a while and get top 8 there
No it is not because you completely neglect all the inherent advantages these koreans pros had over the years. That's the reason we have a region lock in the first place. They experienced the professional korean scene and could use all the advantages in there (which obviously also comes with negatives though, i wouldn't wanna live in a kespa teamhouse probably) The region locking tried to achieve an own scene which could develop strong players naturally. It somewhat succeeded in a way but sc2 being as popular/unpopular as it is now simply cannot nearly reach the level of professionalism which would be required. It doesn't even in korea anymore. You only look at the end result which is korean pros being better.
Also, even if it's easier to get good in korea than anywhere else. The competition is several times harder, which outways that by a large margin. It is much more difficult for a player to live in korea for a while and get top 8, than to live in europe for a while and get top 8 there
Right now? Sure because not even in korea you get a lot of help anymore. It's just ladder (which obviously is a big part but not enough as seen by no new blood entering the proscene) Throw Innovation before he got to experience the kespa system into the foreign scene and compare the end results. That would be the hypothetical which is relevant. It's obviously impossible to prove one way or another but people arguing that foreigners are just so lazy don't even consider it at all.
So sure if the split would be 4-12 for example it probably would be a bit more "fair" if we only consider the absolute skill. I think there is more to it than that though so the 8-8 one seems decent enough.
Even with the advantages that korean pros have had over the years. The level of compitition is simply so much higher that makes it more difficult.
imagine this: Player 1 gets advantages by being korean and playing in korea, eventually reaches top 8 korea level
Player 2 gets no extra help. just ladder's all day in EU, eventually reaches top 8 in WCS circuit
I think I know which one had to put in more work. Even if all koreans had inherent advantages by living there, it's still harder for any of them to win an event, than for a foreigner to win a circuit event.
I believe if Innovation was never in the kespa scene and played in WCS circuit, he would still have been the best there because he practices better than anyone else (and natural skill). He would, however, never have reached his current level, without being in korea. Even Neeb claims he just practices more than than other foreigners and that's why he's better
On September 20 2017 00:43 Fango wrote: Even with the advantages that korean pros have had over the years. The level of compitition is simply so much higher that makes it more difficult.
imagine this: Player 1 gets advantages by being korean and playing in korea, eventually reaches top 8 korea level
Player 2 gets no extra help. just ladder's all day in EU, eventually reaches top 8 in WCS circuit
I think I know which one had to put in more work. Even if all koreans had inherent advantages by living there, it's still harder for any of them to win an event, than for a foreigner to win a circuit event.
I believe if Innovation was never in the kespa scene and played in WCS circuit, he would still have been the best there because he practices better than anyone else (and natural skill). He would, however, never have reached his current level, without being in korea. Even Neeb claims he just practices more than than other foreigners and that's why he's better
Obligatory reminder that Inno did spend a year on Acer, before deciding to return to KeSPA because he was dissatisfied with his individual results. He immediately won GSL upon joining SKT and brought a silver medal as a gift for his new teammate.
Those first few weeks must've been awkward with soO, I imagine.
On September 20 2017 00:43 Fango wrote: Even with the advantages that korean pros have had over the years. The level of compitition is simply so much higher that makes it more difficult.
imagine this: Player 1 gets advantages by being korean and playing in korea, eventually reaches top 8 korea level
Player 2 gets no extra help. just ladder's all day in EU, eventually reaches top 8 in WCS circuit
I think I know which one had to put in more work. Even if all koreans had inherent advantages by living there, it's still harder for any of them to win an event, than for a foreigner to win a circuit event.
I believe if Innovation was never in the kespa scene and played in WCS circuit, he would still have been the best there because he practices better than anyone else (and natural skill). He would, however, never have reached his current level, without being in korea. Even Neeb claims he just practices more than than other foreigners and that's why he's better
Obligatory reminder that Inno did spend a year on Acer, before deciding to return to KeSPA because he was dissatisfied with his individual results. He immediately won GSL upon joining SKT and brought a silver medal as a gift for his new teammate.
Those first few weeks must've been awkward with soO, I imagine.
If I remember it correctly, he joined like literally right before the finals?
On September 20 2017 00:43 Fango wrote: Even with the advantages that korean pros have had over the years. The level of compitition is simply so much higher that makes it more difficult.
imagine this: Player 1 gets advantages by being korean and playing in korea, eventually reaches top 8 korea level
Player 2 gets no extra help. just ladder's all day in EU, eventually reaches top 8 in WCS circuit
I think I know which one had to put in more work. Even if all koreans had inherent advantages by living there, it's still harder for any of them to win an event, than for a foreigner to win a circuit event.
I believe if Innovation was never in the kespa scene and played in WCS circuit, he would still have been the best there because he practices better than anyone else (and natural skill). He would, however, never have reached his current level, without being in korea. Even Neeb claims he just practices more than than other foreigners and that's why he's better
Obligatory reminder that Inno did spend a year on Acer, before deciding to return to KeSPA because he was dissatisfied with his individual results. He immediately won GSL upon joining SKT and brought a silver medal as a gift for his new teammate.
Those first few weeks must've been awkward with soO, I imagine.
If I remember it correctly, he joined like literally right before the finals?
He joined the day before his semifinal vs Cure, which was a week before the finals. He must've made friends quickly because Dark apparently worked very hard to help him prepare (Inno thanked him in the winner's interview).
Dark such a scumbag friend, he seems to make a habit of helping soO's finals opponents. ^Dark also helped Stats for the 2017 GSL Season 1 finals, which soO was pissed about
Yes, I remember that. I really disliked Inno back then, due to his somewhat monotone playstyle (and I wanted soO to win so badly), but seeing him develop as a player over the years has been really great.
On September 20 2017 00:43 Fango wrote: Even with the advantages that korean pros have had over the years. The level of compitition is simply so much higher that makes it more difficult.
imagine this: Player 1 gets advantages by being korean and playing in korea, eventually reaches top 8 korea level
Player 2 gets no extra help. just ladder's all day in EU, eventually reaches top 8 in WCS circuit
I think I know which one had to put in more work. Even if all koreans had inherent advantages by living there, it's still harder for any of them to win an event, than for a foreigner to win a circuit event.
I believe if Innovation was never in the kespa scene and played in WCS circuit, he would still have been the best there because he practices better than anyone else (and natural skill). He would, however, never have reached his current level, without being in korea. Even Neeb claims he just practices more than than other foreigners and that's why he's better
He had to put in more work but he also had the advantages of teamhouses, coaching, korean ladder, etc. You cannot mathematically weigh all these things up and come to a definite conclusion. All these players are what they are not only through own determinism (which is a huge part, even in the foreign scene ) but also because of their diret surroundings allowing for it. Which is why the region locking was a necessary thing if we wanted to develop a foreigns scene. The best way to become as good as a korean pro simply was to experience their infrastructure. The idea of wcs was to develop a foreign one, sc2 simply isn't nearly popular enough for that to work out (and even if it were koreans would still have an advantage because of all the experience and the circumstances in korea, etc, just look at lol)
I don't think there is a good conclusion to all of this. Yes the top 16 players in the world are likely korean (or at least mostly korean) and if that is all we care for then 8-8 split is unfair. I think the issue is really not that important though tbh
On September 20 2017 00:43 Fango wrote: Even with the advantages that korean pros have had over the years. The level of compitition is simply so much higher that makes it more difficult.
imagine this: Player 1 gets advantages by being korean and playing in korea, eventually reaches top 8 korea level
Player 2 gets no extra help. just ladder's all day in EU, eventually reaches top 8 in WCS circuit
I think I know which one had to put in more work. Even if all koreans had inherent advantages by living there, it's still harder for any of them to win an event, than for a foreigner to win a circuit event.
I believe if Innovation was never in the kespa scene and played in WCS circuit, he would still have been the best there because he practices better than anyone else (and natural skill). He would, however, never have reached his current level, without being in korea. Even Neeb claims he just practices more than than other foreigners and that's why he's better
He had to put in more work but he also had the advantages of teamhouses, coaching, korean ladder, etc. You cannot mathematically weigh all these things up and come to a definite conclusion. All these players are what they are not only through own determinism (which is a huge part, even in the foreign scene ) but also because of their diret surroundings allowing for it. Which is why the region locking was a necessary thing if we wanted to develop a foreigns scene. The best way to become as good as a korean pro simply was to experience their infrastructure. The idea of wcs was to develop a foreign one, sc2 simply isn't nearly popular enough for that to work out (and even if it were koreans would still have an advantage because of all the experience and the circumstances in korea, etc, just look at lol)
I don't think there is a good conclusion to all of this. Yes the top 16 players in the world are likely korean (or at least mostly korean) and if that is all we care for then 8-8 split is unfair. I think the issue is really not that important though tbh
While I cannot mathematically compare the two. I can say with almost complete certainty which one is greater than the other.
"It's harder to win a korean tournament, as a korean, than to win a foreigner tournament, as a foreigner"
Like Neeb said, just practice more than the other foreigners and you can win with ez :p
And I have no issues with the region lock anymore btw (well that's a lie but that's for somewhere else lol), but there is simply more competition in the korean scene than the foreign one.
"All top 8 koreans are fucking insane by korean standards, only the top 2-3 foreigners are insane by foreigner standards"
You can do fairly meh in foreign events and still get to blizzcon (TRUE), because the competition below top 8 is very weak, but top 8 korea is reserved for champions and finalists alone. Some of which might not even make it
On September 20 2017 06:02 J. Corsair wrote: Still can't believe Byun won't be at blizzcon. You'd think winning the previous year qualifies you for an automatic spot for the next year. SMH
Why ? He had a lot of tournaments to qualify, downfall since the gsl s2 2016, that was predictable.
On September 20 2017 06:02 J. Corsair wrote: Still can't believe Byun won't be at blizzcon. You'd think winning the previous year qualifies you for an automatic spot for the next year. SMH
Why ? He had a lot of tournaments to qualify, downfall since the gsl s2 2016, that was predictable.
Because he is an incredibly exciting player, win or lose, and his resurgence last year breathed quite a bit of fresh air into SC2, as a whole.
On September 20 2017 06:02 J. Corsair wrote: Still can't believe Byun won't be at blizzcon. You'd think winning the previous year qualifies you for an automatic spot for the next year. SMH
Why ? He had a lot of tournaments to qualify, downfall since the gsl s2 2016, that was predictable.
Because he is an incredibly exciting player, win or lose, and his resurgence last year breathed quite a bit of fresh air into SC2, as a whole.
On September 20 2017 06:02 J. Corsair wrote: Still can't believe Byun won't be at blizzcon. You'd think winning the previous year qualifies you for an automatic spot for the next year. SMH
No. A year is too long to give someone an auto seed
Look at Innovation now compared to last year, ridiculous difference in form. Or look at Zest last year vs now.
On September 20 2017 06:02 J. Corsair wrote: Still can't believe Byun won't be at blizzcon. You'd think winning the previous year qualifies you for an automatic spot for the next year. SMH
No. A year is too long to give someone an auto seed
Look at Innovation now compared to last year, ridiculous difference in form. Or look at Zest last year vs now.
Agreed. ByuN wasn't good enough to make Blizzcon (from Korea), simple as that.
Eight spots available, and every single one of players #1-8 has at least been in the finals of a 2017 premier tournament. Five of them are champions, hell INnoVation is a champion four times over and even he is only ranked second.
ByuN made it to the semifinals of one big tournament in all of 2017, IEM Shanghai. The champion of that tournament, Rogue, isn't even going to Blizzcon. Now I like the man, and he has a cute dog, but he simply hasn't put up Blizzcon-worthy results in 2017. I get that he's a popular guy. Popularity already brought him to GSL vs the World. But popularity can only take him so far.
Eight Koreans are heading to Blizzcon, and ByuN isn't one of them. Bluntly put, he doesn't deserve to be. (I would also say many foreigners--Blizzcon attendees--deserve to be there even less, but that's a whole different issue)
the 8-8 split just made ro16 half as difficult for the 8 Koreans as they used to face Koreans in ro16 before instead of foreigners now. Tbh, the other 8 Koreans left at home wouldn't be able to become the champion so it doesn't affect the Blizzcon result anyway. Let's call ro16 Blizzcon Wellfare showmatches before we head to the real competition afterwards. It's like football Worldcup, they give 32 slots for countries all around the world but in the end, only the top 6 European teams plus Brazil and Argentina matter.
On September 20 2017 11:18 ParksonVN wrote: the 8-8 split just made ro16 half as difficult for the 8 Koreans as they used to face Koreans in ro16 before instead of foreigners now. Tbh, the other 8 Koreans left at home wouldn't be able to become the champion so it doesn't affect the Blizzcon result anyway. Let's call ro16 Blizzcon Wellfare showmatches before we head to the real competition afterwards. It's like football Worldcup, they give 32 slots for countries all around the world but in the end, only the top 6 European teams plus Brazil and Argentina matter.
It's certainly a matter of debate on whether the other 8 would or would not become champions, as there are some very skilled Koreans not going to Blizzcon (though, this year they have not performed as well). Incidentally, the winners of the 2013, 2014, and 2015 Blizzcon World Championships were all below the top 8 of WCS points earners.
But, to call the ro16 "Blizzcon Welfare," well first, the ro16 is played out in groups, so there are Koreans versus Koreans, but secondly, a number of Koreans actually lost in this round. It was a surprising result, but from this logic the winner of SSL season 2 and a two-time ro4 GSL player weren't the "real competition in last year's Blizzcon. Arguments can be made about that "ro4 GSL player," but I seriously doubt that the second highest WCS Korea points earner was not thought to be the "real competition."
On September 20 2017 11:18 ParksonVN wrote: Tbh, the other 8 Koreans left at home wouldn't be able to become the champion so it doesn't affect the Blizzcon result anyway. Let's call ro16 Blizzcon Wellfare showmatches before we head to the real competition afterwards. It's like football Worldcup, they give 32 slots for countries all around the world but in the end, only the top 6 European teams plus Brazil and Argentina matter.
I wouldn't put it past Rogue, Maru, Classic, or aLive (or maybe sOs) to win blizzcon if they were in good form. All of them were one or two matches of qualifying by the end of the year. And many in the top 8 were only one or two losses of not getting in. Plus given that points have been collected over the past 10 months, the form of all the players has been up and down
You know when Life and sOs won they were rank 14 in WCS right? They just happen to peak around the right time to win blizzcon.
On September 20 2017 16:17 FrkFrJss wrote: But, to call the ro16 "Blizzcon Welfare," well first, the ro16 is played out in groups, so there are Koreans versus Koreans, but secondly, a number of Koreans actually lost in this round. It was a surprising result, but from this logic the winner of SSL season 2 and a two-time ro4 GSL player weren't the "real competition in last year's Blizzcon. Arguments can be made about that "ro4 GSL player," but I seriously doubt that the second highest WCS Korea points earner was not thought to be the "real competition."
To be fair, last year was a shitshow in terms of the korean elite anyway. In my opinion, Dark, Stats, Zest, TY, and ByuN were the only players that looked like real contenders. Solar, Patience, and Dear seemed to just play decent most of the time. I wasn't suprised in the slightest that they lost at blizzcon.
I don't even know what was going on in 2016 tbh. Maybe the proleague cancellation, LoTV issues or whatever. But so many guys that showed up in 2015 and 2017 just had no results. I mean myungsik was almost one match of qualifying for blizzcon ffs
On September 20 2017 16:17 FrkFrJss wrote: But, to call the ro16 "Blizzcon Welfare," well first, the ro16 is played out in groups, so there are Koreans versus Koreans, but secondly, a number of Koreans actually lost in this round. It was a surprising result, but from this logic the winner of SSL season 2 and a two-time ro4 GSL player weren't the "real competition in last year's Blizzcon. Arguments can be made about that "ro4 GSL player," but I seriously doubt that the second highest WCS Korea points earner was not thought to be the "real competition."
To be fair, last year was a shitshow in terms of the korean elite anyway. In my opinion, Dark, Stats, Zest, TY, and ByuN were the only players that looked like real contenders. Solar, Patience, and Dear seemed to just play decent most of the time. I wasn't suprised in the slightest that they lost at blizzcon.
I don't even know what was going on in 2016 tbh. Maybe the proleague cancellation, LoTV issues or whatever. But so many guys that showed up in 2015 and 2017 just had no results. I mean myungsik was almost one match of qualifying for blizzcon ffs
Agreed. 2016 wasn't the best year for Korea, all things considered. I've got a much higher opinion of the 2017 Korean lineup. Stats, Inno, Dark, are favorites, soO, TY, Gumiho, herO, and whomever 8th place ends up being all seem more than strong enough to wreck most of the foreigners and go the distance against the favorites.
I'm anticipating a foreign bloodbath in the Ro16. Neeb has a decent shot at making it out, same for Elazer, depending on which Koreans end up in their groups (all currently unknown). Serral got a tough group (Inno and probably Gumi), and has disappointed on the big stage before. The other foreigners are so many sacrificial lambs.
On September 20 2017 16:17 FrkFrJss wrote: But, to call the ro16 "Blizzcon Welfare," well first, the ro16 is played out in groups, so there are Koreans versus Koreans, but secondly, a number of Koreans actually lost in this round. It was a surprising result, but from this logic the winner of SSL season 2 and a two-time ro4 GSL player weren't the "real competition in last year's Blizzcon. Arguments can be made about that "ro4 GSL player," but I seriously doubt that the second highest WCS Korea points earner was not thought to be the "real competition."
To be fair, last year was a shitshow in terms of the korean elite anyway. In my opinion, Dark, Stats, Zest, TY, and ByuN were the only players that looked like real contenders. Solar, Patience, and Dear seemed to just play decent most of the time. I wasn't suprised in the slightest that they lost at blizzcon.
I don't even know what was going on in 2016 tbh. Maybe the proleague cancellation, LoTV issues or whatever. But so many guys that showed up in 2015 and 2017 just had no results. I mean myungsik was almost one match of qualifying for blizzcon ffs
Agreed. 2016 wasn't the best year for Korea, all things considered. I've got a much higher opinion of the 2017 Korean lineup. Stats, Inno, Dark, are favorites, soO, TY, Gumiho, herO, and whomever 8th place ends up being all seem more than strong enough to wreck most of the foreigners and go the distance against the favorites.
I'm anticipating a foreign bloodbath in the Ro16. Neeb has a decent shot at making it out, same for Elazer, depending on which Koreans end up in their groups (all currently unknown). Serral got a tough group (Inno and probably Gumi), and has disappointed on the big stage before. The other foreigners are so many sacrificial lambs.
Tbh I expect Neeb to be the only one to actually put up a proper fight, maybe even take someone out
But ye, i feel like overall the competitiveness is higher this year in korea ( perhaps because they have more tournaments than last year, with only 2 SSL and 2 GSL, PL excepted)
On September 20 2017 16:17 FrkFrJss wrote: But, to call the ro16 "Blizzcon Welfare," well first, the ro16 is played out in groups, so there are Koreans versus Koreans, but secondly, a number of Koreans actually lost in this round. It was a surprising result, but from this logic the winner of SSL season 2 and a two-time ro4 GSL player weren't the "real competition in last year's Blizzcon. Arguments can be made about that "ro4 GSL player," but I seriously doubt that the second highest WCS Korea points earner was not thought to be the "real competition."
To be fair, last year was a shitshow in terms of the korean elite anyway. In my opinion, Dark, Stats, Zest, TY, and ByuN were the only players that looked like real contenders. Solar, Patience, and Dear seemed to just play decent most of the time. I wasn't suprised in the slightest that they lost at blizzcon.
I don't even know what was going on in 2016 tbh. Maybe the proleague cancellation, LoTV issues or whatever. But so many guys that showed up in 2015 and 2017 just had no results. I mean myungsik was almost one match of qualifying for blizzcon ffs
For sure, I think the quality was much worse. I mean you look at Zest, and he had a pretty poor last half of 2016, and he was in there...and made it through mainly on the back of PvP (which so did Neeb, but then neither did especially well at Blizzcon last year).
I don't know if the argument can really be made for Solar, who beat a number of the players that were mentioned as being "good" last year. But I do agree that this year, the competition is definitely better (both with regards to the Korean and the foreign side)
The funny thing is, even against TY and Byun, foreigners did not do so badly, with Showtime doing well against Byun and Nerchio go a tight 1-2 against TY.
On September 20 2017 16:17 FrkFrJss wrote: But, to call the ro16 "Blizzcon Welfare," well first, the ro16 is played out in groups, so there are Koreans versus Koreans, but secondly, a number of Koreans actually lost in this round. It was a surprising result, but from this logic the winner of SSL season 2 and a two-time ro4 GSL player weren't the "real competition in last year's Blizzcon. Arguments can be made about that "ro4 GSL player," but I seriously doubt that the second highest WCS Korea points earner was not thought to be the "real competition."
To be fair, last year was a shitshow in terms of the korean elite anyway. In my opinion, Dark, Stats, Zest, TY, and ByuN were the only players that looked like real contenders. Solar, Patience, and Dear seemed to just play decent most of the time. I wasn't suprised in the slightest that they lost at blizzcon.
I don't even know what was going on in 2016 tbh. Maybe the proleague cancellation, LoTV issues or whatever. But so many guys that showed up in 2015 and 2017 just had no results. I mean myungsik was almost one match of qualifying for blizzcon ffs
For sure, I think the quality was much worse. I mean you look at Zest, and he had a pretty poor last half of 2016, and he was in there...and made it through mainly on the back of PvP (which so did Neeb, but then neither did especially well at Blizzcon last year).
I don't know if the argument can really be made for Solar, who beat a number of the players that were mentioned as being "good" last year. But I do agree that this year, the competition is definitely better (both with regards to the Korean and the foreign side)
The funny thing is, even against TY and Byun, foreigners did not do so badly, with Showtime doing well against Byun and Nerchio go a tight 1-2 against TY.
Indeed that ByuN fail against Showtime was hilarious. And that epic throw in TY vs Nerchio g2 gave us a really good series. Nerchio looked like top 3 zerg in the world at that point. It's sad that zest had to lose to stats, he could've put up a really good fight against ByuN considering how much better his PvT was (he 4-1'd byun in kespa cup a few weeks before)
On September 20 2017 16:17 FrkFrJss wrote: But, to call the ro16 "Blizzcon Welfare," well first, the ro16 is played out in groups, so there are Koreans versus Koreans, but secondly, a number of Koreans actually lost in this round. It was a surprising result, but from this logic the winner of SSL season 2 and a two-time ro4 GSL player weren't the "real competition in last year's Blizzcon. Arguments can be made about that "ro4 GSL player," but I seriously doubt that the second highest WCS Korea points earner was not thought to be the "real competition."
To be fair, last year was a shitshow in terms of the korean elite anyway. In my opinion, Dark, Stats, Zest, TY, and ByuN were the only players that looked like real contenders. Solar, Patience, and Dear seemed to just play decent most of the time. I wasn't suprised in the slightest that they lost at blizzcon.
I don't even know what was going on in 2016 tbh. Maybe the proleague cancellation, LoTV issues or whatever. But so many guys that showed up in 2015 and 2017 just had no results. I mean myungsik was almost one match of qualifying for blizzcon ffs
For sure, I think the quality was much worse. I mean you look at Zest, and he had a pretty poor last half of 2016, and he was in there...and made it through mainly on the back of PvP (which so did Neeb, but then neither did especially well at Blizzcon last year).
I don't know if the argument can really be made for Solar, who beat a number of the players that were mentioned as being "good" last year. But I do agree that this year, the competition is definitely better (both with regards to the Korean and the foreign side)
The funny thing is, even against TY and Byun, foreigners did not do so badly, with Showtime doing well against Byun and Nerchio go a tight 1-2 against TY.
I disagree on this point, foreign scene was the worst, not because of Neeb, but because of their level drop, Nerchio, Showtime are nowhere near of last year, uthermal too, Polt isnt there hydra too, TRUE got worse etc, yes we got Serral but it's not enough
On September 20 2017 16:17 FrkFrJss wrote: But, to call the ro16 "Blizzcon Welfare," well first, the ro16 is played out in groups, so there are Koreans versus Koreans, but secondly, a number of Koreans actually lost in this round. It was a surprising result, but from this logic the winner of SSL season 2 and a two-time ro4 GSL player weren't the "real competition in last year's Blizzcon. Arguments can be made about that "ro4 GSL player," but I seriously doubt that the second highest WCS Korea points earner was not thought to be the "real competition."
To be fair, last year was a shitshow in terms of the korean elite anyway. In my opinion, Dark, Stats, Zest, TY, and ByuN were the only players that looked like real contenders. Solar, Patience, and Dear seemed to just play decent most of the time. I wasn't suprised in the slightest that they lost at blizzcon.
I don't even know what was going on in 2016 tbh. Maybe the proleague cancellation, LoTV issues or whatever. But so many guys that showed up in 2015 and 2017 just had no results. I mean myungsik was almost one match of qualifying for blizzcon ffs
For sure, I think the quality was much worse. I mean you look at Zest, and he had a pretty poor last half of 2016, and he was in there...and made it through mainly on the back of PvP (which so did Neeb, but then neither did especially well at Blizzcon last year).
I don't know if the argument can really be made for Solar, who beat a number of the players that were mentioned as being "good" last year. But I do agree that this year, the competition is definitely better (both with regards to the Korean and the foreign side)
The funny thing is, even against TY and Byun, foreigners did not do so badly, with Showtime doing well against Byun and Nerchio go a tight 1-2 against TY.
I disagree on this point, foreign scene was the worst, not because of Neeb, but because of their level drop, Nerchio, Showtime are nowhere near of last year, uthermal too, Polt isnt there hydra too, TRUE got worse etc, yes we got Serral but it's not enough
But you look at who we have: Neeb - Best foreigner right now Serral, Elazer, Snute, and Nerchio: the four best zergs in Europe right now who can take games or even series off of Koreans. TRUE - I mean...he's Korean, so that's got to count for something Kelazhur - He'll probably get destroyed, but I will not forget that he played quite well versus TY. He has the potential to do well in the vT matchup. Special/Major - He had two strong series against TY and Stats. He has the potential to do well against the Koreans as well as the foreigners.
Perhaps the foreign may not be as good as it was last year, but I'm not sure I even entirely agree on this point. Yes, we don't have Hydra and Polt, and TRUE hasn't done as well. But on the other hand, we have a number of other foreigners stepping up. Neeb and Serral have done better this year than last year, Special has definitely stepped it up, and last year, we didn't have consistency.
We had uThermal, Showtime, among others, but we had fewer people who would consistently do well. uThermal dropped off after his win against Neeb (in part because Neeb kept destroying him), and we had MarineLord who dropped off after his loss to Nerchio, and we had Drogo who did well for a couple months and then actually defeated Snute, which was surprising.
And so just with regard to the top 8 foreigners of this year versus last year, I think it's definitely stronger. Whether or not Polt and Hydra would have performed well is rather moot, because they didn't play in the Grand Finals.
I don't know what are you talking about, but all foreigners are sucks right now. So much sucks against KR pros dudes. Seriously. Even when scene in Korea is very small, they are all still sucks. No new builds from them. No metas, no action. Only confused (lame) macro games.
On September 21 2017 11:37 engesser1 wrote: I don't know what are you talking about, but all foreigners are sucks right now. So much sucks against KR pros dudes. Seriously. Even when scene in Korea is very small, they are all still sucks. No new builds from them. No metas, no action. Only confused (lame) macro games.
On September 21 2017 11:37 engesser1 wrote: I don't know what are you talking about, but all foreigners are sucks right now. So much sucks against KR pros dudes. Seriously. Even when scene in Korea is very small, they are all still sucks. No new builds from them. No metas, no action. Only confused (lame) macro games.
On September 21 2017 11:37 engesser1 wrote: I don't know what are you talking about, but all foreigners are sucks right now. So much sucks against KR pros dudes. Seriously. Even when scene in Korea is very small, they are all still sucks. No new builds from them. No metas, no action. Only confused (lame) macro games.
What
Just replace "sucks" with awesome, and it makes more sense.
On September 21 2017 11:37 engesser1 wrote: I don't know what are you talking about, but all foreigners are sucks right now. So much sucks against KR pros dudes. Seriously. Even when scene in Korea is very small, they are all still sucks. No new builds from them. No metas, no action. Only confused (lame) macro games.
What
Just replace "sucks" with awesome, and it makes more sense.
On September 21 2017 11:37 engesser1 wrote: I don't know what are you talking about, but all foreigners are sucks right now. So much sucks against KR pros dudes. Seriously. Even when scene in Korea is very small, they are all still sucks. No new builds from them. No metas, no action. Only confused (lame) macro games.
What
Just replace "sucks" with awesome, and it makes more sense.
Well, it would be difficult to make less sense.
If you change "sucks" with Neeb it's even better :D
On September 21 2017 11:37 engesser1 wrote: I don't know what are you talking about, but all foreigners are sucks right now. So much sucks against KR pros dudes. Seriously. Even when scene in Korea is very small, they are all still sucks. No new builds from them. No metas, no action. Only confused (lame) macro games.
What
Just replace "sucks" with awesome, and it makes more sense.
Well, it would be difficult to make less sense.
If you change "sucks" with Neeb it's even better :D
I don't know what are you talking about, but all foreigners are Neeb right now. So much Neeb against KR pros dudes. Seriously. Even when scene in Korea is very small, they are all still Neeb. No new builds from them. No metas, no action. Only confused (lame) macro games.
Neeb seriously needs to permanently move to S.Korea if he wants to maximize his skill. It'll be a bit burdensome to fly to international competitions 5x a year to pick up the $100k salary he needs to live on while in Korea, but the real skill increase will come from getting past Ro32 in the GSL.
On September 22 2017 08:19 Arghmyliver wrote: What was the qualifier for this? Zerg is underpowered?
I would say Z is a little bit behind T and P right now. Although Dark is probably the second best player in the world behind Inno
I would agree with this, with the added stipulation that the balance at the very pinnacle of Korean Starcraft is subject to volatile changes depending on individual form. Inno > Dark > Stats, but only by some very slim margins. On a good day, any one of them could beat any one of the others.