If I dont want to get my face caved in the bar , I should just shut my mouth and avoid trouble at all costs right? If you don't know how to defend yourself in a fight thats exactly what you should do,
when it comes to rape why do people always use the stop dressing less sexual as an example why not use, if you go to a bar watch your drink or never leave with a stranger that you know nothing about, or let your friend leave with an stranger watch each others back if you are with a friend?
some situations there is nothing you cant do to stop something from happening but there are always ways to keep yourself as safe as you can turn the chat off, mute the person and so on. learn how to fight
in my experience, i was put through multiple extra-curricular classes each week, with two of them being language classes. they took place at colleges and highschools over the weekend and i was 10 at the time. in these same classes, there could be 18 year olds enrolled in the same classes. the older kids would band together in my class and take advantage of some of the younger ones like myself. eventually they would make us do things like fight each other during break. we beat each other up, or we get heavily abused on our own, and so we did what we were told. the other language class was not as abusive but still had the age gaps and rancid bullying.
LOL thats hilarious, I can just imagine it xD
Might be a be a good idea to print your post out, make an appointment with a therapist, and take a good solid hour to discuss what part of child abuse brings you pleasure.
And proof reading, "that's"
On September 27 2017 05:56 SK.Testie wrote: I've been cyberbullied for 20 years. How do I cash in on this sweet victim status?!?!?!?!?
Acknowledging a thing, isn't the same as playing the victim card. I don't really get your point other than exaggerating a sarcastic statement.
There is nothing to cash in on, it's about preventing and bringing awareness to abusive/harmful behavior between people. If that's been happening to you for 20 years that must really suck dude, I'm sorry that shit happened to you.
On September 27 2017 00:46 merz wrote: Making the argument that streamers should toughen up and not be overly sensitive is like asking a rape victim to wear less challenging/sexual/attractive clothes or dont come off as flirty in i.e. a bar. People will still rape, does that mean we should focus our efforts on victim blaming rather than trying to alter stereotypes and what not that can be a contributor to what makes people rape? Hell no. The offender is the one who has to change their behaviour. I think this video is a step in the right direction and it focuses - as it should - on the offender not the victim.
What? A rape is a physical action, these are kids behind screens typing non-sense, how can you compare the two? I understand there is threats, or cancerous things being said, but that's the point of your moderator. You can control what's being typed in said streams. If you don't then that's your problem.
Also I want to state, I'm not against the video, I think it does what it suppose to do - but most of the time, the cyber bully wants to see these people hurt. Is it really helping or is it really letting cyber bullies know they're winning?
How does Rape being a physical action bear any relevance? It is a valid comparison, in both cases you are asking the victim of an offense to adjust to the situation rather than telling the offender to stop his/her untolerable behaviour. I used rape as an example because victim blaming is very common when it comes to that type of offense, but we can compare it to assault if you want. If I dont want to get my face caved in the bar , I should just shut my mouth and avoid trouble at all costs right? No. Yet these are arguments people actually make. "You should have just looked down and walked away" "You shouldnt drink so much" "You should just accept that people randomly insults you because otherwise they might punch you in the face" and so forth.
Again, if someone says I`m fucking trash or that they hope that my mother dies a horrible death in cancer, I should be the one to get a thicker skin? What about the person who just said he/she hopes my mother dies in cancer? I fail to see the logic in this.
I think the tension comes from comparing the anonymity of the internet to face-to-face confrontation in real life. Yes it is fucked up to tell someone who gets into a fight or raped or any of those similar examples "well you shouldn't have done X". But that sort of victim blaming is worse when there is an identifiable offending party with a name, or witnesses, or any of the other factors in a real life situation that make such offenses a prosecutable crime.
You aren't wrong that people who maliciously cyberbully are really shitty. But we don't yet live in a society where such offenders can be (and are) consistently tracked down, by law, and punished in some sort of way. And we probably won't for quite a while. I think that's part of why people adopt the "grow a thicker skin" defense. Because right now it's sort of the only option. Not that they necessarily think it's "no big deal lol" (not all of them at least...)
On September 27 2017 00:46 merz wrote: Making the argument that streamers should toughen up and not be overly sensitive is like asking a rape victim to wear less challenging/sexual/attractive clothes or dont come off as flirty in i.e. a bar. People will still rape, does that mean we should focus our efforts on victim blaming rather than trying to alter stereotypes and what not that can be a contributor to what makes people rape? Hell no. The offender is the one who has to change their behaviour. I think this video is a step in the right direction and it focuses - as it should - on the offender not the victim.
What? A rape is a physical action, these are kids behind screens typing non-sense, how can you compare the two? I understand there is threats, or cancerous things being said, but that's the point of your moderator. You can control what's being typed in said streams. If you don't then that's your problem.
Also I want to state, I'm not against the video, I think it does what it suppose to do - but most of the time, the cyber bully wants to see these people hurt. Is it really helping or is it really letting cyber bullies know they're winning?
How does Rape being a physical action bear any relevance? It is a valid comparison, in both cases you are asking the victim of an offense to adjust to the situation rather than telling the offender to stop his/her untolerable behaviour. I used rape as an example because victim blaming is very common when it comes to that type of offense, but we can compare it to assault if you want. If I dont want to get my face caved in the bar , I should just shut my mouth and avoid trouble at all costs right? No. Yet these are arguments people actually make. "You should have just looked down and walked away" "You shouldnt drink so much" "You should just accept that people randomly insults you because otherwise they might punch you in the face" and so forth.
Again, if someone says I`m fucking trash or that they hope that my mother dies a horrible death in cancer, I should be the one to get a thicker skin? What about the person who just said he/she hopes my mother dies in cancer? I fail to see the logic in this.
I think the tension comes from comparing the anonymity of the internet to face-to-face confrontation in real life. Yes it is fucked up to tell someone who gets into a fight or raped or any of those similar examples "well you shouldn't have done X". But that sort of victim blaming is worse when there is an identifiable offending party with a name, or witnesses, or any of the other factors in a real life situation that make such offenses a prosecutable crime.
You aren't wrong that people who maliciously cyberbully are really shitty. But we don't yet live in a society where such offenders can be (and are) consistently tracked down, by law, and punished in some sort of way. And we probably won't for quite a while. I think that's part of why people adopt the "grow a thicker skin" defense. Because right now it's sort of the only option. Not that they necessarily think it's "no big deal lol" (not all of them at least...)
Punishment is a rather poor deterrent, look at the incarceration rate of the US and how it has gone up but crimes really haven't decreased as a result. It's not a matter of tracking down people and punishing them, and that is not the only option.
When it comes to issues like this it's about raising awareness that it is even happening, so when other people see it happen we all don't just sit back and let it happen. People have to help each other out, it is the only reason we have made it this far as a species. I'm pretty sure this community lost RootSpyte because she just got tired of getting flamed by assholes (I could be wrong, but that's how I remember it). I see her stream now, and I'm happy she is back, but what if people stood up and said, "Hey that's not ok this is happening."
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
because its impossible to achieve and foolish to hope for. most of the posters here who disagree with the fact that the victims should take it upon themselves to deal with it better seem to be naive. in an ideal world yes, awareness and education (and punishments if necessary) alone will solve this problem and everyone wont be assholes to each other. but any talk on how this could be achieved is purely theoretical and hopelessly optimistic. the truth is you cant prevent this just like how you cant prevent any other crime from happening. its up to yourself to take measures to reduce your exposure to these things and to reduce how much it personally affects you. those cliche statements like "life isnt fair", "people will bring you down" etc. exist for a reason. they are true as fuck so i dunno why people here are preaching theories about how the world should act in order to create some utopian society. its just not achievable.
its the same for the rape argument. we dont say dont wear revealing clothes because we think anyone wearing it is asking for it, nor do we say it because we want to infringe their right to wear whatever. its just realistic to expect that they are placing themselves at higher risk and the only way to minimise these risks is to take action yourself, not expect other people to not present a risk to you in the first place. its not an ideal way to live your life but its sensible and quite frankly necessary in a society where crime, selfishness, stupidity etc will always be prevalent. its human nature
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
A little bit like what Evil above my post said, but I don't think it's exactly correct. He claims that you can't get people to stop... I think you can, but the cost of getting them to stop will be more than the cost of a some people getting a bit offended.
People are going to make a big deal out of things that most people on teamliquid would brush off and not even remember the next day. Korea is trying to bring these things to public television, make it seem like it's some huge problem right now. Then it will go to the legislature, politicians who know nothing about this will make some stupid rash decisions like arbitrary punishments (people already get fined and jailed for saying things on facebook). You'll always have to be careful about what you're saying it to and who, sites will start getting taken down if they have too much vulgarity. It will bring more spotlight to the internet by government agencies (which is exactly what we don't want), and the thing is when there's votes being held on these topics, remember... Most politicians are a lot older than people who use the internet in the way the people we are describing. Most of these people have never made a public forum post, they will make decisions that don't reflect our opinions.
This touches the surface on many reasons that will lead us to having a worse internet experience even if the intentions are well intended.
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
because its impossible to achieve and foolish to hope for. most of the posters here who disagree with the fact that the victims should take it upon themselves to deal with it better seem to be naive. in an ideal world yes, awareness and education (and punishments if necessary) alone will solve this problem and everyone wont be assholes to each other. but any talk on how this could be achieved is purely theoretical and hopelessly optimistic. the truth is you cant prevent this just like how you cant prevent any other crime from happening. its up to yourself to take measures to reduce your exposure to these things and to reduce how much it personally affects you. those cliche statements like "life isnt fair", "people will bring you down" etc. exist for a reason. they are true as fuck so i dunno why people here are preaching theories about how the world should act in order to create some utopian society. its just not achievable.
its the same for the rape argument. we dont say dont wear revealing clothes because we think anyone wearing it is asking for it, nor do we say it because we want to infringe their right to wear whatever. its just realistic to expect that they are placing themselves at higher risk and the only way to minimise these risks is to take action yourself, not expect other people to not present a risk to you in the first place. its not an ideal way to live your life but its sensible and quite frankly necessary in a society where crime, selfishness, stupidity etc will always be prevalent. its human nature
At the end of the day, the position your are defending is that someone shouldn't have to simply have enough self-control over themselves that they don't impulsively spout hurtful shit all over another individual or the community.
You make the argument that the person getting verbally vomited on should have to carry around an umbrella so they don't get it all over their face.
Please tell me how you are saying anything less?
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
It's only controversial in this thread. In many countries you cannot threaten someones life, just like you can't call in a bomb threat to a school and blame it on twitch chat.
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
because its impossible to achieve and foolish to hope for. most of the posters here who disagree with the fact that the victims should take it upon themselves to deal with it better seem to be naive. in an ideal world yes, awareness and education (and punishments if necessary) alone will solve this problem and everyone wont be assholes to each other. but any talk on how this could be achieved is purely theoretical and hopelessly optimistic. the truth is you cant prevent this just like how you cant prevent any other crime from happening. its up to yourself to take measures to reduce your exposure to these things and to reduce how much it personally affects you. those cliche statements like "life isnt fair", "people will bring you down" etc. exist for a reason. they are true as fuck so i dunno why people here are preaching theories about how the world should act in order to create some utopian society. its just not achievable.
its the same for the rape argument. we dont say dont wear revealing clothes because we think anyone wearing it is asking for it, nor do we say it because we want to infringe their right to wear whatever. its just realistic to expect that they are placing themselves at higher risk and the only way to minimise these risks is to take action yourself, not expect other people to not present a risk to you in the first place. its not an ideal way to live your life but its sensible and quite frankly necessary in a society where crime, selfishness, stupidity etc will always be prevalent. its human nature
At the end of the day, the position your are defending is that someone shouldn't have to simply have enough self-control over themselves that they don't impulsively spout hurtful shit all over another individual or the community.
You make the argument that the person getting verbally vomited on should have to carry around an umbrella so they don't get it all over their face.
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
It's only controversial in this thread. In many countries you cannot threaten someones life, just like you can't call in a bomb threat to a school and blame it on twitch chat.
my position is that you shouldnt expect everyone else to have as reasonable amount of self control as you. thats stupid, unrealistic and naive. the rest of your post is yes, pretty much what im saying. im failing to see what the issue is?
also, everyone keeps going back to the threat to JD, but that is literally the only comment you could deem "serious". the rest are a joke and pretty much nothing but banter. i am not disagreeing with anyone in regards to threats like JD's, but im making a point when it comes to the rest of the comments which make up like 90% of what "abuse" on internet looks like.
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
A little bit like what Evil above my post said, but I don't think it's exactly correct. He claims that you can't get people to stop... I think you can, but the cost of getting them to stop will be more than the cost of a some people getting a bit offended.
well yeah i was exaggerating a bit when i said you cant get people to stop. it is possible, but like you pointed out, a scenario that is realistically achievable that brings about those kinds of results already has bigger side effects and downsides to the point where its not even an optimal solution. censorship of everything, lack of free speech etc all becomes affected when you try to tackle the issue head on which is why i have just said outright that it may as well be impossible
the bullied can often become the bully themselves. they'll make friends with their bully and do it to other kids as a sort of coping mechanism or as a kind of compromise/escape. i consider this, in part, mob mentality in other areas in life.
either way, it takes time to get out of this habit of treating others poorly and there are more assholes through the processes of it.
i agree that you can stop it by putting in the effort and breaking it up when you can, making someone finally realize that what they're doing has consequences that deprive them of what they want, day to day.
yes, getting stronger always helps, but that's not what everyone wants with themselves, nor do they have the support or the motivation at times to do so. there are positives to being a sensitive person, believe it or not.
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
because its impossible to achieve and foolish to hope for. most of the posters here who disagree with the fact that the victims should take it upon themselves to deal with it better seem to be naive. in an ideal world yes, awareness and education (and punishments if necessary) alone will solve this problem and everyone wont be assholes to each other. but any talk on how this could be achieved is purely theoretical and hopelessly optimistic. the truth is you cant prevent this just like how you cant prevent any other crime from happening. its up to yourself to take measures to reduce your exposure to these things and to reduce how much it personally affects you. those cliche statements like "life isnt fair", "people will bring you down" etc. exist for a reason. they are true as fuck so i dunno why people here are preaching theories about how the world should act in order to create some utopian society. its just not achievable.
its the same for the rape argument. we dont say dont wear revealing clothes because we think anyone wearing it is asking for it, nor do we say it because we want to infringe their right to wear whatever. its just realistic to expect that they are placing themselves at higher risk and the only way to minimise these risks is to take action yourself, not expect other people to not present a risk to you in the first place. its not an ideal way to live your life but its sensible and quite frankly necessary in a society where crime, selfishness, stupidity etc will always be prevalent. its human nature
At the end of the day, the position your are defending is that someone shouldn't have to simply have enough self-control over themselves that they don't impulsively spout hurtful shit all over another individual or the community.
You make the argument that the person getting verbally vomited on should have to carry around an umbrella so they don't get it all over their face.
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
It's only controversial in this thread. In many countries you cannot threaten someones life, just like you can't call in a bomb threat to a school and blame it on twitch chat.
I think the message is that if you engage in certain activities, you are at risk for undesired side effects. Engaging in such activities is generally (and certainly in this case) a voluntary decision. People especially sensitive to the side effects should ask themselves if it is wise to engage in said activities. You go to a safari and you are immunocompromised - well, you could develop any number of nasty infections. You go skiing, you end up with a cold or even pneumonia every damn time. Hell, you drive a car and nothing is wrong with you, you can still get hit by a truck driver who fell asleep on his 36th hour. Complications occur regardless of our precautions and good intentions. The point is to act anyway and not just turn a blind eye and tell people to "suck it up". But, again, if you can't stand isolated flaming from random internet trolls (I'm not talking about systemic harassment by the same person or group, this is serious), then you are not really suited for creating online content, especially in the case of BJs, who interact real-time with their audiences. You do need some sort of umbrella to hide from the occasional splash of vomit. I suppose you keep an umbrella at home and bring it out when it's raining.
And while theoretically prevention, e.g. education, is better than restriction or punishment, in practice it is impossible. Please try educating a 13-year-old, who's mad at the world because he has acne and unpredictable erections, about the foolishness of cyberbullying. Punishment, at least in legal terms, is also impractical. Restriction is the way to go, with automated filters in chat rooms, bans for repeated offences and ostracism by the community, at least in my opinion. A lone troll is a hungry troll.
"People should get over it, develop a thicker skin" < that is cyber-bullying/bullying.
In frogland we actively punish people who have this kind of "fun", and while i know that repression is sub par as such, anyone who says repression shouldn't happen is part of the problem. The real problem is that people want to belong, they want or actually need to use those dangerous avenues.
Lets agree that when people get hurt they will hurt in return. Lets agree that if you help a stranger he will in turn pass it forward. No?
Saying people are 'too sensitive" is bullying, parents do it everyday, teachers .. friends ..colleagues... Rising against this is the solution, countering over and over the stupid rational that we should all be the same, all be strong all be ready to hurt others in order to feel better ourselves.. opposing bullies is the solution.
When you can do this (fight the bully) , you will feel it, it will be your time to act humanely (to act with consideration for more than yourself and your direct environment) and many will not do it out of fear lazyness self centrism direct loss (like getting fired or hurt physically or made fun of by dozens of people in a chat.. there is no difference).
That is the issue: people who can wont and they become people who cant that go increase the numbers of the bully army.
I mean look at voting polls, people have no interest in politics and let the "chips fall where they may" every day! That is a clear sign of apathy/sleuth.
People take for granted liberties they think they have (stuff loads of other people actually fought and died for, that are considered "normal", something you don't have to consistently go back to defend! which is ludicrous sleuth on their part), and it is all dissolving and drowning in a a sea of: "you can find everything and everyone on internet" it is all there 'ripped for the kill"...
It is imperative to fight for a better place everywhere, every day, not just when it suits our own individual back yard.
ps: if you are a dumb f ck cyberbully / bully in real life, we are coming for you. You will recognize us at once when we will confront you, we will offer to help you while refuting any "bs/hate/humor" you might come at us with, with no sort of confrontation against you just a desire to make you come to terms with your problem.. ..when this happens, do recognize that you need help and make the change happen, or be ready for the come uppers that such a vile attitude yields. # bullies need love too, so they can pass it forward
ps: if you are a dumb f ck cyberbully / bully in real life, we are coming for you. You will recognize us at once when we will confront you, do recognize that you need help and make the change happen, or be ready for the come uppers that such an attitude yields. # bullies need love too, so they can pass it forward
Hey, man, none of us here condones what those people do, but are you an anti-bully vigilante? Bullying the bullies, are you? That seems a tad overboard.
ps: if you are a dumb f ck cyberbully / bully in real life, we are coming for you. You will recognize us at once when we will confront you, do recognize that you need help and make the change happen, or be ready for the come uppers that such an attitude yields. # bullies need love too, so they can pass it forward
Hey, man, none of us here condones what those people do, but are you an anti-bully vigilante? Bullying the bullies, are you? That seems a tad overboard.
It isn't. Again, life is easy, you stand up to bullies or die trying. ps: if you are not among the people who can actually face bullies and feel you should do it, do talk to people you trust to get help doing it. No one has to face bullies alone!
Someone earlier in the thread referenced mmsspyte and her own streamer "history". i was a "white knight" on her chat, i was appalled at how she was treated by "boys" online. And i tried to be a part of the solution, that's all it takes, trying to make sh t better. Same for korean tournament chats that had abandoned policing the chat (for a number of reasons) .. i found it awful and tried to make the chatters aware that someone was there to tell em off. It did help, mods re appeared because "freeloaders" like me where there to support the actions the mods did (you don't want to ban people if you can help it, people above you dont ever tell you what to do or not do etc)...
All it takes is one finger in the machine and you will get sucked in whole:
So again, some people can, some can't face bullies.. if you can do it, do it!
in my experience, i was put through multiple extra-curricular classes each week, with two of them being language classes. they took place at colleges and highschools over the weekend and i was 10 at the time. in these same classes, there could be 18 year olds enrolled in the same classes. the older kids would band together in my class and take advantage of some of the younger ones like myself. eventually they would make us do things like fight each other during break. we beat each other up, or we get heavily abused on our own, and so we did what we were told. the other language class was not as abusive but still had the age gaps and rancid bullying.
LOL thats hilarious, I can just imagine it xD
Might be a be a good idea to print your post out, make an appointment with a therapist, and take a good solid hour to discuss what part of child abuse brings you pleasure.
in my experience, i was put through multiple extra-curricular classes each week, with two of them being language classes. they took place at colleges and highschools over the weekend and i was 10 at the time. in these same classes, there could be 18 year olds enrolled in the same classes. the older kids would band together in my class and take advantage of some of the younger ones like myself. eventually they would make us do things like fight each other during break. we beat each other up, or we get heavily abused on our own, and so we did what we were told. the other language class was not as abusive but still had the age gaps and rancid bullying.
LOL thats hilarious, I can just imagine it xD
Might be a be a good idea to print your post out, make an appointment with a therapist, and take a good solid hour to discuss what part of child abuse brings you pleasure.
And proof reading, "that's"
I dont even...
That's the part where you go find out what he's on about. Don't be scared, the nice you is way more cool/chill/hip/whatever good than the slick you.
in my experience, i was put through multiple extra-curricular classes each week, with two of them being language classes. they took place at colleges and highschools over the weekend and i was 10 at the time. in these same classes, there could be 18 year olds enrolled in the same classes. the older kids would band together in my class and take advantage of some of the younger ones like myself. eventually they would make us do things like fight each other during break. we beat each other up, or we get heavily abused on our own, and so we did what we were told. the other language class was not as abusive but still had the age gaps and rancid bullying.
LOL thats hilarious, I can just imagine it xD
Might be a be a good idea to print your post out, make an appointment with a therapist, and take a good solid hour to discuss what part of child abuse brings you pleasure.
And proof reading, "that's"
I dont even...
That's the part where you go find out what he's on about. Don't be scared, the nice you is way more cool/chill/hip/whatever good than the slick you.
No I am talking about the part where he corrected the grammar... The rest is just usual forum social-justice babble. I do rather than type, thanks. Have a good day!
in my experience, i was put through multiple extra-curricular classes each week, with two of them being language classes. they took place at colleges and highschools over the weekend and i was 10 at the time. in these same classes, there could be 18 year olds enrolled in the same classes. the older kids would band together in my class and take advantage of some of the younger ones like myself. eventually they would make us do things like fight each other during break. we beat each other up, or we get heavily abused on our own, and so we did what we were told. the other language class was not as abusive but still had the age gaps and rancid bullying.
LOL thats hilarious, I can just imagine it xD
Might be a be a good idea to print your post out, make an appointment with a therapist, and take a good solid hour to discuss what part of child abuse brings you pleasure.
And proof reading, "that's"
I dont even...
That's the part where you go find out what he's on about. Don't be scared, the nice you is way more cool/chill/hip/whatever good than the slick you.
No I am talking about the part where he corrected the grammar... The rest is just usual forum social-justice babble. I do rather than type, thanks. Have a good day!
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
I know right?
People between these two options: 1) telling assholes to stop being assholes; 2) telling victims to grow a thicker skin; choose the second one because it's the lazier and they don't have to do anything to change the situation. We call them status quo warriors.