If you've been watching GSL and ASL, then you should have noticed that during breaks, AfreecaTV has been airing a certain commercial that features many AfreecaTV BJ streamers. Basically, the video features these people recollecting some of the most hurtful comments they've ever received while streaming. And then the streamers respond with how those words made them feel.
I saw some requests from both TL and reddit that they'd like to see the video translated. So here we go:
0:24 Gyeonggi South Province National Police Agency Promotion Team Office Kim Joon Soo: Even a single line of a malicious comment written by you can end up hurting someone for the rest of their life.
Thanks for the translation! Its really sad to see how mean people get one the internet , but Im glad AfreecaTV is atleast trying to discourage stuff like that...
On September 25 2017 02:44 Disregard wrote: Cyber-bullying in Korea is no joke, especially with anonymity being standard makes it even more prevalent.
Ever read a twitch chat? It's not just in Korea, it's a general problem across the Internet.
Trolls are more prevalent on twitch due to it's wide demographics, but the cyber-bullying is on another level in Korea. I think many can agree, it is contributing factor to the high OECD suicide rate.
On September 25 2017 02:44 Disregard wrote: Cyber-bullying in Korea is no joke, especially with anonymity being standard makes it even more prevalent.
it was sort of under control when websites forced people to register using their KSSN (or even just phone number) back in the day but its changed a lot now.
I mean the other ones are also mean but JD's example is pretty bad. You never know if you should take it serious, that's basically a death threat. I can understand why someone would sleep worse at that point.
I know we live in a different age now, but instead of seeking to regulate discourse it would be more beneficial for people to learn to dismiss negative comments without assigning any worth or value to them. You only give these types of people more power to affect you by regarding their ridiculous and negative opinions as valid.
If this is the extent with which these people have to interact with the wicked side of human nature, they should consider themselves very fortunate, indeed.
I do agree that threats, especially those violent in nature, should be punished.
On September 25 2017 08:17 J. Corsair wrote: I know we live in a different age now, but instead of seeking to regulate discourse it would be more beneficial for people to learn to dismiss negative comments without assigning any worth or value to them. You only give these types of people more power to affect you by regarding their ridiculous and negative opinions as valid.
If this is the extent with which these people have to interact with the wicked side of human nature, they should consider themselves very fortunate, indeed.
I do agree that threats, especially those violent in nature, should be punished.
No, you are exactly completely wrong. Ridiculous and negative opinions are valid to the person who *sent them* regardless of whether the recepient took them as such or not. What this is doing is at least trying to address the actual issue, which is the threats and the cyberbullying. Your post is pretty much victim blaming in its essence.
I wish people didn't act like such shitfaces on the net..but quite honestly i am much more concerned with real life censorship, and by that I mean the increasing levels in Western countries that infringe of people's expression and alternative views.
On September 25 2017 08:30 TT1 wrote: i grew up on TL so im immune to cyberbullying :x
I don't know if you're being serious but TL.net takes this sort of thing very seriously. This is one of the most civil forums online. We play nice with each other, unlike several other sites of this size.
You guys are really nice here. I posted about this a while back.
On September 25 2017 08:30 TT1 wrote: i grew up on TL so im immune to cyberbullying :x
I don't know if you're being serious but TL.net takes this sort of thing very seriously. This is one of the most civil forums online. We play nice with each other, unlike several other sites of this size.
You guys are really nice here. I posted about this a while back.
On September 25 2017 08:36 KrOjah wrote: I wish people didn't act like such shitfaces on the net..but quite honestly i am much more concerned with real life censorship, and by that I mean the increasing levels in Western countries that infringe of people's expression and alternative views.
I see it the same way.
Cyberbullying in unfortunate, but then we start walking down the path of everything being monitored... And the way the legal system works is that you aren't necessarily punished to the same extent other people committing the crime are (for example hosting a small media sharing site could land you in jail for 20 years), and I think it's better to leave it the way it is. Telling people to behave nicely is fine, but it also brings undesirable attention on the subject - makes it appear a bigger issue than it really is.
I visit many corners of the internet, and it's been at least 10 years since I've felt personally threatened by anyone. Comments like you're bad at the game or you have small boobs here are so insignificant, it's much better to try and find a better community to be a part of and ignore it.
Some people really do try to be intentionally nasty (and the ones I've met have mostly been irl), but most insults that I'll receive while playing BW come off with the same tone of "I hope you step on a lego", even though the actual words themselves would be a lot more mean. I have no doubt that I could meet any of the people I've played with and have an actual conversation (maybe a bit of apologizing hah). I don't know how big an issue it is in Korea, because obviously I'm speaking from a Western perspective here, but it seems almost a non-issue to me.
That said, I do prefer a less anonymous internet, at least when communication is involved, so things like real ID, or at least some way where your image and reputation make an impact to how you're treated. Teamliquid is a little bit like that, though they've been going down the squishy emotion route recently, probably due to having a larger presence and more sponsors to appeal to.
edit: Thanks for the translation Seeker ^^, also with the ASL group selection!
On September 25 2017 05:55 Heyjoray wrote: (T)Flash: "You play this game like f*ing garbage." I also wonder why Flash would say something like that. He could atleast be more subtle
it was said to Flash from an anonymous person. not from him
I was about to say, I remember when this got first revealed and immediately requested a clip of Flash's comment, just so I could send it to people as a joke when they're underperforming, (like the streamer UpATreeZelda).
Obviously it seems a bit in poor taste when it's an anti-CB video, but I just find it so funny hearing Flash say "Wow, you play like fucking garbage."
cyberbullying is definitely an issue not just in korea but all over the world, but as a korean myself i can say with certainty that korean public figures are too easily offended by negative comments. (not just streamers, but mainstream celebrities also) its probably easiest to say its a cultural thing, but theres definitely some naivety amongst korean public figures where they almost expect everyone to be nice to them and any negative message is a personal attack. not that im condoning cyberbullying at all, but the sensible (and necessary) thing to do as a public figure is to develop thicker skin and realise people will talk shit about you and be trolls. i feel western streamers (especially twitch streamers) understand this quite well and treat most of their viewers as trolls or monkeys and take negative comments light heartedly. sure, hardly anyone even on twitch would say theyd want to kill you with a knife but i doubt a western streamer would be as offended as jd was anyway. there are only a few korean streamers who i can name off the top of my head who are practically immune to that shit and understand its part of being a public figure, the biggest name being chulgu (terror). no offense to flash and the other female bj, but "youre shit at the game" and "your tits are too small" are definitely not comments that you should be getting offended by. its almost pathetic how soft theyre being when receiving criticism is honestly part of their job description.
On September 25 2017 16:17 evilfatsh1t wrote: cyberbullying is definitely an issue not just in korea but all over the world, but as a korean myself i can say with certainty that korean public figures are too easily offended by negative comments. (not just streamers, but mainstream celebrities also) its probably easiest to say its a cultural thing, but theres definitely some naivety amongst korean public figures where they almost expect everyone to be nice to them and any negative message is a personal attack. not that im condoning cyberbullying at all, but the sensible (and necessary) thing to do as a public figure is to develop thicker skin and realise people will talk shit about you and be trolls. i feel western streamers (especially twitch streamers) understand this quite well and treat most of their viewers as trolls or monkeys and take negative comments light heartedly. sure, hardly anyone even on twitch would say theyd want to kill you with a knife but i doubt a western streamer would be as offended as jd was anyway. there are only a few korean streamers who i can name off the top of my head who are practically immune to that shit and understand its part of being a public figure, the biggest name being chulgu (terror). no offense to flash and the other female bj, but "youre shit at the game" and "your tits are too small" are definitely not comments that you should be getting offended by. its almost pathetic how soft theyre being when receiving criticism is honestly part of their job description.
There's quite a bit of difference between criticism and blatant personal attacks.
I feel for JD, regardless whether you get threats IRL or online, it's not cool. Fucking scum should be punished for it.
well yeah, im not saying personal attacks are cool. abusive comments should be punishable and refrained from in general, but its one thing to condemn personal attacks and another to be unnecessarily offended by meaningless shit
While cyber bullying is bad - I agree - I'm not sure if this video is a great example of this. People say a lot of stupid things and they don't need anonymity for it. Prime example of this is Facebook where many people identify under their name and even face.
I can see that the problem is in the "trashtalk" where you don't know if it's meant of just meaningless(e.g. JD)
Are all Korean players such princesses that one-line comments from strangers haunt them for extended periods of time? I am not arguing that such behavior is good, but this is a huge overreaction. I guess whatever floats their boat in Korea, but I wouldn't like to see this spreading to the West. I just don't want my tax-funded police to waste their time on dealing with random internet comments and I certainly don't want my random internet comments to be subject to any scrutiny.
Also, cyber-bullying is an important issue, but it is completely unrelated to what is being presented here. Actual cyber-bullying is targeted hurtful behavior with real-life implications, not random trashtalk.
On September 25 2017 19:46 opisska wrote: Are all Korean players such princesses that one-line comments from strangers haunt them for extended periods of time? I am not arguing that such behavior is good, but this is a huge overreaction. I guess whatever floats their boat in Korea, but I wouldn't like to see this spreading to the West. I just don't want my tax-funded police to waste their time on dealing with random internet comments and I certainly don't want my random internet comments to be subject to any scrutiny.
Also, cyber-bullying is an important issue, but it is completely unrelated to what is being presented here. Actual cyber-bullying is targeted hurtful behavior with real-life implications, not random trashtalk.
this is my point basically, except as i already said in my post, this overreaction isnt exclusive to streamers but public figures in general. koreans in general are hugely sensitive to shit talk, which is good in the fact that people know to refrain from doing so, but bad in the fact that everyone is a sensitive fairy. if you look at western facebook comments with all the memes, roasts, "savagery" and other troll shit, its so widely accepted as normal behaviour and it is what is considered as humour or "good sport". you try that on a korean page or post with a korean audience, you get comments from like 1000 different individuals calling you out for being insensitive, rude etc. things like dark humour literally doesnt exist in korean society either
On September 25 2017 08:36 KrOjah wrote: I wish people didn't act like such shitfaces on the net..but quite honestly i am much more concerned with real life censorship, and by that I mean the increasing levels in Western countries that infringe of people's expression and alternative views.
Alternative views like threatening to murder another person?
On September 25 2017 08:36 KrOjah wrote: I wish people didn't act like such shitfaces on the net..but quite honestly i am much more concerned with real life censorship, and by that I mean the increasing levels in Western countries that infringe of people's expression and alternative views.
Alternative views like threatening to murder another person?
He probably means stuff like immigration, religion and foreign policy, though that's irrelevant to this thread especially in the context of South Korea.
On September 25 2017 16:17 evilfatsh1t wrote: [...]not that im condoning cyberbullying at all [...]
[...] its almost pathetic how soft theyre being when receiving criticism is honestly part of their job description.[...]
I feel like you're participating in unproductive victim blaming.
You lose the battle as soon as you go down this path.
Cyberbullying is completely unacceptable and the bully is 100% responsible, and they should be the one that society pushes to change, not the victim. Not just because that's what is right, but also because it's much more realistic to alter the behavior of the bully than it is to alter the emotions of the victim.
On September 25 2017 19:46 opisska wrote: Are all Korean players such princesses that one-line comments from strangers haunt them for extended periods of time? I am not arguing that such behavior is good, but this is a huge overreaction. I guess whatever floats their boat in Korea, but I wouldn't like to see this spreading to the West. I just don't want my tax-funded police to waste their time on dealing with random internet comments and I certainly don't want my random internet comments to be subject to any scrutiny.
Also, cyber-bullying is an important issue, but it is completely unrelated to what is being presented here. Actual cyber-bullying is targeted hurtful behavior with real-life implications, not random trashtalk.
this is my point basically, except as i already said in my post, this overreaction isnt exclusive to streamers but public figures in general. koreans in general are hugely sensitive to shit talk, which is good in the fact that people know to refrain from doing so, but bad in the fact that everyone is a sensitive fairy. if you look at western facebook comments with all the memes, roasts, "savagery" and other troll shit, its so widely accepted as normal behaviour and it is what is considered as humour or "good sport". you try that on a korean page or post with a korean audience, you get comments from like 1000 different individuals calling you out for being insensitive, rude etc. things like dark humour literally doesnt exist in korean society either
I get you're trying to make a point about sensitivity, but I'm calling bs.
Your argument is basically that it's ok to treat people like shit, because it's their fault for letting it hurt them.
If you are shitty to someone everyday, even just a "little bit shitty" then eventually that will wear someone down. For example, if everyday I call you an asshole and right after I say it, I remind you how I'm "just joking and it's all good my friend..." Eventually (probably no more than a week) it won't be good anymore, it will be at the very least irritating and at the worst hurtful. It's actually just abusive.
A man calls his wife a "bitch," but then says he loves her and he is sorry. Over time it doesn't matter how many times he says he is sorry, it hurts her and that has nothing to do with how "sensitive" she is.
In the case of the internet, there is not even a sorry because of anonymity. So it's even worse, its just shitty thing after shitty thing. People say ... "oh it's just twitch chat... Never mind they are spamming 'go kill yourself' 100 times over."
I remember one of the last tourneys I saw Ret playing sc2, he was doing good and all I could see in twitch chat was a bunch of assholes spamming terrible shit about his weight for the entire match... It was pure poison. The saddest thing is if Ret was standing in front of those people they wouldn't have the conviction to say a damn thing.
This kind of logic transcends cultures. If you treat people like shit (abuse them) you will hurt them eventually, and it should never fall on the responsibility of the person getting shit on to grow thick skin.
*That's an excuse for people to act out their own lack of self-control when it comes to spouting out harmful venom.
both of you dont read or something because like i stated in my posts, to me they are completely separate issues. obviously abusive comments is unacceptable and we need to educate people that cyberbullying is an actual problem. however, being overly sensitive to peoples' comments about you is almost completely unrelated and should be dealt with entirely on its own. having thin skin isnt an issue thats exclusive to cyberbullying, and so im saying its something koreans, or any other person who this problem applies to, need to work on even if there is no association to cyberbullying.
its popular nowadays for everyone to be politically (or in this case, morally) correct and just call me out for "victim blaming" or some shit, but tbh the more likely scenario for these streamers is they just havent developed proper social skills and just need to harden up. some of the comments they claim to be offended by are probably lighter than what the average joe listens to when he gets reamed out at work by his own boss.
ill concede the point that if someone says that shit to your face 100 times youll be annoyed either way, but theyre reading this stuff on a chat, and like i already pointed out with terror, its honestly quite easy to ignore. accept that its part of the job to have people talk shit about you and either ignore the trolls, or embrace it and turn it around on them like some western streamers do.
Being "overly sensitive" is something that makes sense only compared to what for *you*, for your experience, is "normal sensitivity".
Someone is expressing a complaint, by saying that they (streamers) are personally affected in a negative way by hateful comments. This issue is for them strong enough to be willing to voice this complaint: what gives you the authority to decide if this is "overly" sensitive, or just the right amount of sensitive?
I ask to understand, not to argue but why do you (figurative you) react to this concerns by trying to evaluate how these people feel? Does it come from distrust in what they say?
If someone says to me that they are "strongly" affected by something (being it hate speech in online chat, or else) - why should my reaction be to tell them how to be "less sensitive" to the issue?
Also, I find this type of argument a bit absurd: "some of the comments they claim to be offended by are probably lighter than what the average joe listens to when he gets reamed out at work by his own boss"
if you have a problem, I cannot dismiss it by saying that others have it worse! There will always be someone in a worse situation: does your boss screams at you at work everyday? well, there are people who don't have a job at all, should you really complain? (yes you should of course! )
"accept that its part of the job to have people talk shit about you" --> why should they? These people stream on a specific platform (twitch, afreecaTV, ...) they don't appear out of nowhere on "The Internet". As much as I strongly feel that the internet should not be (in most part) "regulated" or censored, I also think that specific platform / websites should enforce a stronger regulation. The internet is free, sure, but is Twitch is "my home" (as in, I manage Twitch as one of the owner for instance) I would not tolerate certain things, just like if you come to my house and start insulting me, I will not accept you here anymore (and I hope we agree this is not "limiting your freedom of speech" )
so your solution is to do nothing to improve your ability to withstand flame and hope the surrounding world changes their ways so that you can live in a world full of rainbows and unicorns? again, im not saying bullying and abusive comments is in any way acceptable. efforts should be made to reduce these where possible. however its naive to think that just because you increase awareness or somehow regulate online and offline platforms in order to achieve this, suddenly the world is going to stop throwing shit at you. if i took a job as a garbage collector id have to accept the fact that my hands are gonna get dirty and im gonna stink like shit (im guessing). the alternative is having a sook and complaining all day every day about it when its a choice i made anyway. likewise with people who put themselves in a position where they are open to scrutiny from the public, its a choice they made and they have to realise there are going to be people who will try to bring you down. its inevitable. so either they accept that part of their job and learn to toughen up or they can continue to be hurt by every comment that belittles them and make life harder for themselves, because whether they like it or not people arent going to miraculously turn nice and stop flaming.
again, i emphasise that in regards to streaming, it seems that western streamers handle this very well in general compared to koreans. i mean i personally havent heard of a single case of a western streamer making a genuine complaint how they were genuinely offended by viewers on a regular basis. i mean im sure there are cases where i havent heard of, but you would only need to compare sample sizes with korea to see how much of a difference there is.
you could maybe make a case for some female streamers, but its hard to sympathise too much when so many of them blatantly target horny males on stream by modelling themselves after the "gamer girl" image, expose maximum cleavage and wear skimpy clothes for the attention. they know what theyre getting themselves into. inb4 someone interprets this as female streamers deserving the flame or some bullshit. no, its just inevitable and should be something the streamer has taken into account and is prepared to deal with.
I am sorry - I like to discuss and I love TL, but this type of posts
"you could maybe make a case for some female streamers, but its hard to sympathise too much when so many of them blatantly target horny males on stream by modelling themselves after the "gamer girl" image, expose maximum cleavage and wear skimpy clothes for the attention. they know what theyre getting themselves into"
makes me feel very sad, so I will not answer.. this mentality is so sick to my eyes and should have *no place* in a forum like this, that I have no interest in being exposed to it: I'm sure you won't change your opinion, I'm sorry you view the world and act in it like this (mostly for the people who interact with you..)
And yes: if there is a problem, my solution is *not* to become better at suffering it, rather it is to bring attention to it if this improves the chances that something get changes and I *don't* have to suffer the problem anymore (if this means living in a world full of rainbows and unicorns, even better)
On September 26 2017 17:06 VHbb wrote: I am sorry - I like to discuss and I love TL, but this type of posts
"you could maybe make a case for some female streamers, but its hard to sympathise too much when so many of them blatantly target horny males on stream by modelling themselves after the "gamer girl" image, expose maximum cleavage and wear skimpy clothes for the attention. they know what theyre getting themselves into"
makes me feel very sad, so I will not answer.. this mentality is so sick to my eyes and should have *no place* in a forum like this, that I have no interest in being exposed to it: I'm sure you won't change your opinion, I'm sorry you view the world and act in it like this (mostly for the people who interact with you..)
And yes: if there is a problem, my solution is *not* to become better at suffering it, rather it is to bring attention to it if this improves the chances that something get changes and I *don't* have to suffer the problem anymore (if this means living in a world full of rainbows and unicorns, even better)
well i wish you luck on your great quest to rid our world of its many problems. meanwhile i will be doing my best to adapt to circumstances and live my life
On September 26 2017 17:06 VHbb wrote: I am sorry - I like to discuss and I love TL, but this type of posts
"you could maybe make a case for some female streamers, but its hard to sympathise too much when so many of them blatantly target horny males on stream by modelling themselves after the "gamer girl" image, expose maximum cleavage and wear skimpy clothes for the attention. they know what theyre getting themselves into"
makes me feel very sad, so I will not answer.. this mentality is so sick to my eyes and should have *no place* in a forum like this, that I have no interest in being exposed to it: I'm sure you won't change your opinion, I'm sorry you view the world and act in it like this (mostly for the people who interact with you..)
And yes: if there is a problem, my solution is *not* to become better at suffering it, rather it is to bring attention to it if this improves the chances that something get changes and I *don't* have to suffer the problem anymore (if this means living in a world full of rainbows and unicorns, even better)
well i wish you luck on your great quest to rid our world of its many problems. meanwhile i will be doing my best to adapt to circumstances and live my life
To be fair you are from australia, im from nz (korean ethnicity). The culture is completely different between NZ/aus and korea. Itsa bit narrow minded/culturally insensitive to say "toughen up", especially when the nz/aus culture is to literally "greet your friends with insults".
On September 26 2017 17:06 VHbb wrote: I am sorry - I like to discuss and I love TL, but this type of posts
"you could maybe make a case for some female streamers, but its hard to sympathise too much when so many of them blatantly target horny males on stream by modelling themselves after the "gamer girl" image, expose maximum cleavage and wear skimpy clothes for the attention. they know what theyre getting themselves into"
makes me feel very sad, so I will not answer.. this mentality is so sick to my eyes and should have *no place* in a forum like this, that I have no interest in being exposed to it: I'm sure you won't change your opinion, I'm sorry you view the world and act in it like this (mostly for the people who interact with you..)
And yes: if there is a problem, my solution is *not* to become better at suffering it, rather it is to bring attention to it if this improves the chances that something get changes and I *don't* have to suffer the problem anymore (if this means living in a world full of rainbows and unicorns, even better)
well i wish you luck on your great quest to rid our world of its many problems. meanwhile i will be doing my best to adapt to circumstances and live my life
To be fair you are from australia, im from nz (korean ethnicity). The culture is completely different between NZ/aus and korea. Itsa bit narrow minded/culturally insensitive to say "toughen up", especially when the nz/aus culture is to literally "greet your friends with insults".
I believe he's Korean ethnicity as well, could be wrong though.
You can lament thin skin all you want but you'd have to be pretty fucking stupid to think that "I want to take a knife and fucking kill you" is in the same league as "you're ugly" or "you're retarded" or "you're a slut".
ROFL at the FlaSh hater though... if FlaSh plays like fucking garbage, then what does he play like?
i would actually hate to see real life bullying translated to bullying behind anonymity. people will use any medium in their reach to do it.
when internet wasn't used, school-yard bullying was pretty commonplace. we had PSA's and everything. the one thing that nearly every person of that age has in common despite how different the kids are, is school.
in my experience, i was put through multiple extra-curricular classes each week, with two of them being language classes. they took place at colleges and highschools over the weekend and i was 10 at the time. in these same classes, there could be 18 year olds enrolled. the older kids would band together in my class and take advantage of some of the younger ones like myself. eventually they would make us do things like fight each other during break. we beat each other up, or we get heavily abused on our own, and so we did what we were told. the other language class was not as abusive but still had the age gaps and rancid bullying.
mix in experiences like those with online ones with the same people or similar, and i guarantee you will be scarred in some shape or another. i should not have to mention that it can get very hard to get out of the loop, or get help. personally, i spoke to my parents as hard as it was, and also my best friend at the time who was there to watch all of it. they didn't see it as pressing until it was too late, and my friend was too scared to do anything. i don't blame him. i asked for help every week and looked in my free time for somebody to help me, until i just understood it was best to refuse to go no matter how much i was forced to.the fear of it stayed and it transitioned to actual school. i still think about it today and how much i changed over the years because of it.
so in my opinion, bullying is no joke, and it's not even worth discussing where the blame lays. i can say that education, care, and monitoring on both sides helps as i try and aid and talk other people out of the same situations today. this is a good video and it's not overblown whether by ethnicity, culture, or w/e.
On September 25 2017 16:17 evilfatsh1t wrote: cyberbullying is definitely an issue not just in korea but all over the world, but as a korean myself i can say with certainty that korean public figures are too easily offended by negative comments. (not just streamers, but mainstream celebrities also) its probably easiest to say its a cultural thing, but theres definitely some naivety amongst korean public figures where they almost expect everyone to be nice to them and any negative message is a personal attack. not that im condoning cyberbullying at all, but the sensible (and necessary) thing to do as a public figure is to develop thicker skin and realise people will talk shit about you and be trolls. i feel western streamers (especially twitch streamers) understand this quite well and treat most of their viewers as trolls or monkeys and take negative comments light heartedly. sure, hardly anyone even on twitch would say theyd want to kill you with a knife but i doubt a western streamer would be as offended as jd was anyway. there are only a few korean streamers who i can name off the top of my head who are practically immune to that shit and understand its part of being a public figure, the biggest name being chulgu (terror). no offense to flash and the other female bj, but "youre shit at the game" and "your tits are too small" are definitely not comments that you should be getting offended by. its almost pathetic how soft theyre being when receiving criticism is honestly part of their job description.
Well, they got literally asked to say things like this to get the message across. Whether the comments really affected them this much is another question. Also it's not a KR only problem, a lot of western streamers struggle with this as well. So while I agree with your point that streamers need thicker skin I'm not sure we can say koreans are more sensitive to this.
On September 26 2017 17:06 VHbb wrote: I am sorry - I like to discuss and I love TL, but this type of posts
"you could maybe make a case for some female streamers, but its hard to sympathise too much when so many of them blatantly target horny males on stream by modelling themselves after the "gamer girl" image, expose maximum cleavage and wear skimpy clothes for the attention. they know what theyre getting themselves into"
makes me feel very sad, so I will not answer.. this mentality is so sick to my eyes and should have *no place* in a forum like this, that I have no interest in being exposed to it: I'm sure you won't change your opinion, I'm sorry you view the world and act in it like this (mostly for the people who interact with you..)
And yes: if there is a problem, my solution is *not* to become better at suffering it, rather it is to bring attention to it if this improves the chances that something get changes and I *don't* have to suffer the problem anymore (if this means living in a world full of rainbows and unicorns, even better)
well i wish you luck on your great quest to rid our world of its many problems. meanwhile i will be doing my best to adapt to circumstances and live my life
To be fair you are from australia, im from nz (korean ethnicity). The culture is completely different between NZ/aus and korea. Itsa bit narrow minded/culturally insensitive to say "toughen up", especially when the nz/aus culture is to literally "greet your friends with insults".
I believe he's Korean ethnicity as well, could be wrong though.
correct. i am korean myself so its fair to say i am very familiar with how the "general population" is.
On September 26 2017 17:06 VHbb wrote: I am sorry - I like to discuss and I love TL, but this type of posts
"you could maybe make a case for some female streamers, but its hard to sympathise too much when so many of them blatantly target horny males on stream by modelling themselves after the "gamer girl" image, expose maximum cleavage and wear skimpy clothes for the attention. they know what theyre getting themselves into"
makes me feel very sad, so I will not answer.. this mentality is so sick to my eyes and should have *no place* in a forum like this, that I have no interest in being exposed to it: I'm sure you won't change your opinion, I'm sorry you view the world and act in it like this (mostly for the people who interact with you..)
And yes: if there is a problem, my solution is *not* to become better at suffering it, rather it is to bring attention to it if this improves the chances that something get changes and I *don't* have to suffer the problem anymore (if this means living in a world full of rainbows and unicorns, even better)
well i wish you luck on your great quest to rid our world of its many problems. meanwhile i will be doing my best to adapt to circumstances and live my life
To be fair you are from australia, im from nz (korean ethnicity). The culture is completely different between NZ/aus and korea. Itsa bit narrow minded/culturally insensitive to say "toughen up", especially when the nz/aus culture is to literally "greet your friends with insults".
i did point out that its likely to be a cultural issue at the start btw.
I agree cyberbullying is a bad thing and should be discouraged, but let's face reality. These people MAKE A LIVING off displaying content on the same world wide web that's used to bully them. It's literally a part of the game. I have seen videos of celebrities, for example actors and actresses, reading insulting tweets about themselves. I have seen tens of thousands of negative, outright insulting comments about various sports celebrities like Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi - and these guys don't even do their work on the internet, so they are less exposed to online bullying. It's natural to be worse when your WORK is making online content of any sort - and it implies communication with a mass of viewers, real-time, so they actually PAY you. Some of those will be trolls, 12-year-olds just hitting puberty and having nothing better to do than insult people on the internet, some of those will be genuinely disappointed with the author's content. Some may be drunk or high. It's literally unavoidable and I'm absolutely not willing to give up any personal information other than my age and location in exchange for anti-bullying policies. This is a whole another matter, of course, and a much bigger one, but in this case the ends simply do not justify the means.
That is not to say the community as a whole cannot act on bullies. They can be - and, like here, they are - ostracized. Chat rooms can be censored so certain words and phrases simply do not show up, like insults. Death threats are another matter and, really, a tiny fraction of those are actually real death threats, but they should raise automated flags and ban users outright. Everyone's on a VPN these days anyway, so tracking is difficult. Despite that, the off-chance that someone might actually carry out an assassination of a BJ is in no way justification for expanding online surveillance, we have quite enough of that already. I recall several murders of football players who screwed up in an important game - somewhere in South America. The fans that did it watched the game on the stadium or on TV. The kind of surveillance required to spot these would be something like 1984.
But beyond that, bullying is an issue, but not a grave one and it is OUR responsibility as a community to ostracize bullies and provide support for content creators (if we want to, of course!). Eliminating bullying is, quite literally, impossible. If you are a content creator who cannot sleep over one bully saying you are full of it, well, I wonder if this is really your job, regardless of how creative you are. If you are sick of blood, heck, don't become a surgeon. I do not defend bullies and I'm against bullying, of course, but this is online reality.
One thing I've learned about cyber bullying is that it's being done by kids, or grown adults who don't have better use of their time. If I recall, a lot of the old SC:BW community were bully's. I got bullied on TL.net quite a few times. I also remember as a kid bullying other players too but I never said harsh things like "I want a knife to your throat" more like "you suck at this game", but in the end, if you let it get to you, then they win. I always just ignored the name calling, or threats. That's really the only way you're able to win online vs a world full of anonymous.
Making the argument that streamers should toughen up and not be overly sensitive is like asking a rape victim to wear less challenging/sexual/attractive clothes or dont come off as flirty in i.e. a bar. People will still rape, does that mean we should focus our efforts on victim blaming rather than trying to alter stereotypes and what not that can be a contributor to what makes people rape? Hell no. The offender is the one who has to change their behaviour. I think this video is a step in the right direction and it focuses - as it should - on the offender not the victim.
On September 27 2017 00:46 merz wrote: Making the argument that streamers should toughen up and not be overly sensitive is like asking a rape victim to wear less challenging/sexual/attractive clothes or dont come off as flirty in i.e. a bar. People will still rape, does that mean we should focus our efforts on victim blaming rather than trying to alter stereotypes and what not that can be a contributor to what makes people rape? Hell no. The offender is the one who has to change their behaviour. I think this video is a step in the right direction and it focuses - as it should - on the offender not the victim.
What? A rape is a physical action, these are kids behind screens typing non-sense, how can you compare the two? I understand there is threats, or cancerous things being said, but that's the point of your moderator. You can control what's being typed in said streams. If you don't then that's your problem.
Also I want to state, I'm not against the video, I think it does what it suppose to do - but most of the time, the cyber bully wants to see these people hurt. Is it really helping or is it really letting cyber bullies know they're winning?
Cyberbullying is a huge problem, it's resulted in many people committing suicide. Just saying "thicken your skin and get over it" is a terrible thing to say. I'm sorry not everybody has the mental resilience you do, but they don't deserve to die because of it.
I think Internet anonymity is important for journalists, abuse victims, civil rights activists, etc. But we should really stop tolerating these trolls in Twitch chats and whatnot.
On September 27 2017 02:03 LightSpectra wrote: Cyberbullying is a huge problem, it's resulted in many people committing suicide. Just saying "thicken your skin and get over it" is a terrible thing to say. I'm sorry not everybody has the mental resilience you do, but they don't deserve to die because of it.
I think Internet anonymity is important for journalists, abuse victims, civil rights activists, etc. But we should really stop tolerating these trolls in Twitch chats and whatnot.
I don't want to sound negative or bad here, but if you're committing suicide, or contemplating it, then you seriously need help, and I say this from past experience with contemplation of suicide. It's not just about cyber bullying that makes a person commit suicide, there is outside factors that are contributing to the decision of suicide. I highly doubt that a person has killed themselves just because of cyber bullying. Yet I'm sure it has progressed the decision.
The only solution here is remove negative words or phrases from being entered into the chat. I used to have to control my work chat channels with the same function. I don't get why Twitch hasn't done anything about it then if it's such a huge problem?
On September 26 2017 17:06 VHbb wrote: I am sorry - I like to discuss and I love TL, but this type of posts
"you could maybe make a case for some female streamers, but its hard to sympathise too much when so many of them blatantly target horny males on stream by modelling themselves after the "gamer girl" image, expose maximum cleavage and wear skimpy clothes for the attention. they know what theyre getting themselves into"
makes me feel very sad, so I will not answer.. this mentality is so sick to my eyes and should have *no place* in a forum like this, that I have no interest in being exposed to it: I'm sure you won't change your opinion, I'm sorry you view the world and act in it like this (mostly for the people who interact with you..)
And yes: if there is a problem, my solution is *not* to become better at suffering it, rather it is to bring attention to it if this improves the chances that something get changes and I *don't* have to suffer the problem anymore (if this means living in a world full of rainbows and unicorns, even better)
well i wish you luck on your great quest to rid our world of its many problems. meanwhile i will be doing my best to adapt to circumstances and live my life
To be fair you are from australia, im from nz (korean ethnicity). The culture is completely different between NZ/aus and korea. Itsa bit narrow minded/culturally insensitive to say "toughen up", especially when the nz/aus culture is to literally "greet your friends with insults".
I'm Italian, so you could say european culture, but honestly I didn't take that much into account when commenting. I still think that in case of strong cultural differences the "weak" (i.e. most sensitive, most easily affected negatively) should set the pace.
p.s. writing that you don't want your words to be interpreted as sexist is not really an "excuse" to write something extremely sexist (this about evilfatsh1t post, not the one quoted here)
On September 26 2017 15:36 evilfatsh1t wrote: both of you dont read or something because like i stated in my posts, to me they are completely separate issues. obviously abusive comments is unacceptable and we need to educate people that cyberbullying is an actual problem. however, being overly sensitive to peoples' comments about you is almost completely unrelated and should be dealt with entirely on its own. having thin skin isnt an issue thats exclusive to cyberbullying, and so im saying its something koreans, or any other person who this problem applies to, need to work on even if there is no association to cyberbullying.
its popular nowadays for everyone to be politically (or in this case, morally) correct and just call me out for "victim blaming" or some shit, but tbh the more likely scenario for these streamers is they just havent developed proper social skills and just need to harden up. some of the comments they claim to be offended by are probably lighter than what the average joe listens to when he gets reamed out at work by his own boss.
ill concede the point that if someone says that shit to your face 100 times youll be annoyed either way, but theyre reading this stuff on a chat, and like i already pointed out with terror, its honestly quite easy to ignore. accept that its part of the job to have people talk shit about you and either ignore the trolls, or embrace it and turn it around on them like some western streamers do.
I understand you are trying to make a cultural point, and I will state again that this issue transcends culture. You can find examples of it even in America where young women and men and hung themselves as a result of online abuse/bullying.
In this statement you don't offer any new adjustments to your argument, but only fall back on the same words. Take the "victim/offender" language out of our discussion. What you objectively have is someone saying hurtful things to another person.
Why, what is the point (what does it serve)? Please tell me what is the benefit of saying shitty things to another person? If a free society you have a right (to some degree) to insult another person, but what is the purpose, why defend an extreme excessive act of insults (twitch chat)?
We cannot control how somebody takes or interprets the words we speak (some people get offended no matter what), but we can control what we say or if we say anything at all.
Twitch chat amounts to people acting out their lack of self control. Rather than have on the verbal filter that we all use in society so we don't get thrown in jail or punched, they just let it rip and say any stupid racist or harmful thing that comes as a first impulse. How is this useful ok even ok in society (I might change my mind if you can provide a compelling argument)?
It is not the other person's burden to be verbally dumped on by some jackass, it is the responsibly of the jackass to control himself. This is common to all societies. *Even if you say, the comments aren't bad, that is subjective what is actually hurtful to another person.
I would go as far as to say why be critical of anyone else, you and I, we have enough of our own problems to sort out so there is no reason to every worry about someone else. Worry about yourself.
Suppose you see a man walking down the street wearing a wolf mask with blood on the fangs and he starts to swing his arms around with bottles in them, swinging them dangerously close to your face but not hitting you. Then he starts howling and screaming around children and everyone on main street. He has never hurt anyone and he has been doing this for years.
Society actually says that's not ok, and they've made laws to try and protect that person and the others around them (less than perfect laws might I add). But his actions affect other people. I don't agree that you should say, "Oh that's just the crazy wolf man he has never hit anyone with his bottles, you need to just get used to them swinging by your face if you want to go downtown."
On September 27 2017 00:46 merz wrote: Making the argument that streamers should toughen up and not be overly sensitive is like asking a rape victim to wear less challenging/sexual/attractive clothes or dont come off as flirty in i.e. a bar. People will still rape, does that mean we should focus our efforts on victim blaming rather than trying to alter stereotypes and what not that can be a contributor to what makes people rape? Hell no. The offender is the one who has to change their behaviour. I think this video is a step in the right direction and it focuses - as it should - on the offender not the victim.
What? A rape is a physical action, these are kids behind screens typing non-sense, how can you compare the two? I understand there is threats, or cancerous things being said, but that's the point of your moderator. You can control what's being typed in said streams. If you don't then that's your problem.
Also I want to state, I'm not against the video, I think it does what it suppose to do - but most of the time, the cyber bully wants to see these people hurt. Is it really helping or is it really letting cyber bullies know they're winning?
How does Rape being a physical action bear any relevance? It is a valid comparison, in both cases you are asking the victim of an offense to adjust to the situation rather than telling the offender to stop his/her untolerable behaviour. I used rape as an example because victim blaming is very common when it comes to that type of offense, but we can compare it to assault if you want. If I dont want to get my face caved in the bar , I should just shut my mouth and avoid trouble at all costs right? No. Yet these are arguments people actually make. "You should have just looked down and walked away" "You shouldnt drink so much" "You should just accept that people randomly insults you because otherwise they might punch you in the face" and so forth.
Again, if someone says I`m fucking trash or that they hope that my mother dies a horrible death in cancer, I should be the one to get a thicker skin? What about the person who just said he/she hopes my mother dies in cancer? I fail to see the logic in this.
in my experience, i was put through multiple extra-curricular classes each week, with two of them being language classes. they took place at colleges and highschools over the weekend and i was 10 at the time. in these same classes, there could be 18 year olds enrolled in the same classes. the older kids would band together in my class and take advantage of some of the younger ones like myself. eventually they would make us do things like fight each other during break. we beat each other up, or we get heavily abused on our own, and so we did what we were told. the other language class was not as abusive but still had the age gaps and rancid bullying.
Words of violence are abhorring. That isn't acceptable, and no amount of thick skin makes it so.
At the same time, we as a society should grow a thicker skin.
Sometimes, we give the trolls power over us when we generate a reaction. If we do not have a reaction or provide one that wasn't expected, then we take power away from the trolls. Hence, 'don't feed the trolls' is a plausible response from some people.
But this isn't a black and white issue. For some, certain words, comments, replies, engagements are deemed offensive, but not necessarily by all. Grey areas exist.
Words that trigger racially sensitive labels are not the same as violence emotionally, physically, or any -ally.
To some degree, we have to ignore some of the comments, because that takes away its power. We have to decide our degree, and express them clearly.
I am not victim blaming, I just view things differently.
If I dont want to get my face caved in the bar , I should just shut my mouth and avoid trouble at all costs right? If you don't know how to defend yourself in a fight thats exactly what you should do,
when it comes to rape why do people always use the stop dressing less sexual as an example why not use, if you go to a bar watch your drink or never leave with a stranger that you know nothing about, or let your friend leave with an stranger watch each others back if you are with a friend?
some situations there is nothing you cant do to stop something from happening but there are always ways to keep yourself as safe as you can turn the chat off, mute the person and so on. learn how to fight
in my experience, i was put through multiple extra-curricular classes each week, with two of them being language classes. they took place at colleges and highschools over the weekend and i was 10 at the time. in these same classes, there could be 18 year olds enrolled in the same classes. the older kids would band together in my class and take advantage of some of the younger ones like myself. eventually they would make us do things like fight each other during break. we beat each other up, or we get heavily abused on our own, and so we did what we were told. the other language class was not as abusive but still had the age gaps and rancid bullying.
LOL thats hilarious, I can just imagine it xD
Might be a be a good idea to print your post out, make an appointment with a therapist, and take a good solid hour to discuss what part of child abuse brings you pleasure.
And proof reading, "that's"
On September 27 2017 05:56 SK.Testie wrote: I've been cyberbullied for 20 years. How do I cash in on this sweet victim status?!?!?!?!?
Acknowledging a thing, isn't the same as playing the victim card. I don't really get your point other than exaggerating a sarcastic statement.
There is nothing to cash in on, it's about preventing and bringing awareness to abusive/harmful behavior between people. If that's been happening to you for 20 years that must really suck dude, I'm sorry that shit happened to you.
On September 27 2017 00:46 merz wrote: Making the argument that streamers should toughen up and not be overly sensitive is like asking a rape victim to wear less challenging/sexual/attractive clothes or dont come off as flirty in i.e. a bar. People will still rape, does that mean we should focus our efforts on victim blaming rather than trying to alter stereotypes and what not that can be a contributor to what makes people rape? Hell no. The offender is the one who has to change their behaviour. I think this video is a step in the right direction and it focuses - as it should - on the offender not the victim.
What? A rape is a physical action, these are kids behind screens typing non-sense, how can you compare the two? I understand there is threats, or cancerous things being said, but that's the point of your moderator. You can control what's being typed in said streams. If you don't then that's your problem.
Also I want to state, I'm not against the video, I think it does what it suppose to do - but most of the time, the cyber bully wants to see these people hurt. Is it really helping or is it really letting cyber bullies know they're winning?
How does Rape being a physical action bear any relevance? It is a valid comparison, in both cases you are asking the victim of an offense to adjust to the situation rather than telling the offender to stop his/her untolerable behaviour. I used rape as an example because victim blaming is very common when it comes to that type of offense, but we can compare it to assault if you want. If I dont want to get my face caved in the bar , I should just shut my mouth and avoid trouble at all costs right? No. Yet these are arguments people actually make. "You should have just looked down and walked away" "You shouldnt drink so much" "You should just accept that people randomly insults you because otherwise they might punch you in the face" and so forth.
Again, if someone says I`m fucking trash or that they hope that my mother dies a horrible death in cancer, I should be the one to get a thicker skin? What about the person who just said he/she hopes my mother dies in cancer? I fail to see the logic in this.
I think the tension comes from comparing the anonymity of the internet to face-to-face confrontation in real life. Yes it is fucked up to tell someone who gets into a fight or raped or any of those similar examples "well you shouldn't have done X". But that sort of victim blaming is worse when there is an identifiable offending party with a name, or witnesses, or any of the other factors in a real life situation that make such offenses a prosecutable crime.
You aren't wrong that people who maliciously cyberbully are really shitty. But we don't yet live in a society where such offenders can be (and are) consistently tracked down, by law, and punished in some sort of way. And we probably won't for quite a while. I think that's part of why people adopt the "grow a thicker skin" defense. Because right now it's sort of the only option. Not that they necessarily think it's "no big deal lol" (not all of them at least...)
On September 27 2017 00:46 merz wrote: Making the argument that streamers should toughen up and not be overly sensitive is like asking a rape victim to wear less challenging/sexual/attractive clothes or dont come off as flirty in i.e. a bar. People will still rape, does that mean we should focus our efforts on victim blaming rather than trying to alter stereotypes and what not that can be a contributor to what makes people rape? Hell no. The offender is the one who has to change their behaviour. I think this video is a step in the right direction and it focuses - as it should - on the offender not the victim.
What? A rape is a physical action, these are kids behind screens typing non-sense, how can you compare the two? I understand there is threats, or cancerous things being said, but that's the point of your moderator. You can control what's being typed in said streams. If you don't then that's your problem.
Also I want to state, I'm not against the video, I think it does what it suppose to do - but most of the time, the cyber bully wants to see these people hurt. Is it really helping or is it really letting cyber bullies know they're winning?
How does Rape being a physical action bear any relevance? It is a valid comparison, in both cases you are asking the victim of an offense to adjust to the situation rather than telling the offender to stop his/her untolerable behaviour. I used rape as an example because victim blaming is very common when it comes to that type of offense, but we can compare it to assault if you want. If I dont want to get my face caved in the bar , I should just shut my mouth and avoid trouble at all costs right? No. Yet these are arguments people actually make. "You should have just looked down and walked away" "You shouldnt drink so much" "You should just accept that people randomly insults you because otherwise they might punch you in the face" and so forth.
Again, if someone says I`m fucking trash or that they hope that my mother dies a horrible death in cancer, I should be the one to get a thicker skin? What about the person who just said he/she hopes my mother dies in cancer? I fail to see the logic in this.
I think the tension comes from comparing the anonymity of the internet to face-to-face confrontation in real life. Yes it is fucked up to tell someone who gets into a fight or raped or any of those similar examples "well you shouldn't have done X". But that sort of victim blaming is worse when there is an identifiable offending party with a name, or witnesses, or any of the other factors in a real life situation that make such offenses a prosecutable crime.
You aren't wrong that people who maliciously cyberbully are really shitty. But we don't yet live in a society where such offenders can be (and are) consistently tracked down, by law, and punished in some sort of way. And we probably won't for quite a while. I think that's part of why people adopt the "grow a thicker skin" defense. Because right now it's sort of the only option. Not that they necessarily think it's "no big deal lol" (not all of them at least...)
Punishment is a rather poor deterrent, look at the incarceration rate of the US and how it has gone up but crimes really haven't decreased as a result. It's not a matter of tracking down people and punishing them, and that is not the only option.
When it comes to issues like this it's about raising awareness that it is even happening, so when other people see it happen we all don't just sit back and let it happen. People have to help each other out, it is the only reason we have made it this far as a species. I'm pretty sure this community lost RootSpyte because she just got tired of getting flamed by assholes (I could be wrong, but that's how I remember it). I see her stream now, and I'm happy she is back, but what if people stood up and said, "Hey that's not ok this is happening."
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
because its impossible to achieve and foolish to hope for. most of the posters here who disagree with the fact that the victims should take it upon themselves to deal with it better seem to be naive. in an ideal world yes, awareness and education (and punishments if necessary) alone will solve this problem and everyone wont be assholes to each other. but any talk on how this could be achieved is purely theoretical and hopelessly optimistic. the truth is you cant prevent this just like how you cant prevent any other crime from happening. its up to yourself to take measures to reduce your exposure to these things and to reduce how much it personally affects you. those cliche statements like "life isnt fair", "people will bring you down" etc. exist for a reason. they are true as fuck so i dunno why people here are preaching theories about how the world should act in order to create some utopian society. its just not achievable.
its the same for the rape argument. we dont say dont wear revealing clothes because we think anyone wearing it is asking for it, nor do we say it because we want to infringe their right to wear whatever. its just realistic to expect that they are placing themselves at higher risk and the only way to minimise these risks is to take action yourself, not expect other people to not present a risk to you in the first place. its not an ideal way to live your life but its sensible and quite frankly necessary in a society where crime, selfishness, stupidity etc will always be prevalent. its human nature
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
A little bit like what Evil above my post said, but I don't think it's exactly correct. He claims that you can't get people to stop... I think you can, but the cost of getting them to stop will be more than the cost of a some people getting a bit offended.
People are going to make a big deal out of things that most people on teamliquid would brush off and not even remember the next day. Korea is trying to bring these things to public television, make it seem like it's some huge problem right now. Then it will go to the legislature, politicians who know nothing about this will make some stupid rash decisions like arbitrary punishments (people already get fined and jailed for saying things on facebook). You'll always have to be careful about what you're saying it to and who, sites will start getting taken down if they have too much vulgarity. It will bring more spotlight to the internet by government agencies (which is exactly what we don't want), and the thing is when there's votes being held on these topics, remember... Most politicians are a lot older than people who use the internet in the way the people we are describing. Most of these people have never made a public forum post, they will make decisions that don't reflect our opinions.
This touches the surface on many reasons that will lead us to having a worse internet experience even if the intentions are well intended.
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
because its impossible to achieve and foolish to hope for. most of the posters here who disagree with the fact that the victims should take it upon themselves to deal with it better seem to be naive. in an ideal world yes, awareness and education (and punishments if necessary) alone will solve this problem and everyone wont be assholes to each other. but any talk on how this could be achieved is purely theoretical and hopelessly optimistic. the truth is you cant prevent this just like how you cant prevent any other crime from happening. its up to yourself to take measures to reduce your exposure to these things and to reduce how much it personally affects you. those cliche statements like "life isnt fair", "people will bring you down" etc. exist for a reason. they are true as fuck so i dunno why people here are preaching theories about how the world should act in order to create some utopian society. its just not achievable.
its the same for the rape argument. we dont say dont wear revealing clothes because we think anyone wearing it is asking for it, nor do we say it because we want to infringe their right to wear whatever. its just realistic to expect that they are placing themselves at higher risk and the only way to minimise these risks is to take action yourself, not expect other people to not present a risk to you in the first place. its not an ideal way to live your life but its sensible and quite frankly necessary in a society where crime, selfishness, stupidity etc will always be prevalent. its human nature
At the end of the day, the position your are defending is that someone shouldn't have to simply have enough self-control over themselves that they don't impulsively spout hurtful shit all over another individual or the community.
You make the argument that the person getting verbally vomited on should have to carry around an umbrella so they don't get it all over their face.
Please tell me how you are saying anything less?
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
It's only controversial in this thread. In many countries you cannot threaten someones life, just like you can't call in a bomb threat to a school and blame it on twitch chat.
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
because its impossible to achieve and foolish to hope for. most of the posters here who disagree with the fact that the victims should take it upon themselves to deal with it better seem to be naive. in an ideal world yes, awareness and education (and punishments if necessary) alone will solve this problem and everyone wont be assholes to each other. but any talk on how this could be achieved is purely theoretical and hopelessly optimistic. the truth is you cant prevent this just like how you cant prevent any other crime from happening. its up to yourself to take measures to reduce your exposure to these things and to reduce how much it personally affects you. those cliche statements like "life isnt fair", "people will bring you down" etc. exist for a reason. they are true as fuck so i dunno why people here are preaching theories about how the world should act in order to create some utopian society. its just not achievable.
its the same for the rape argument. we dont say dont wear revealing clothes because we think anyone wearing it is asking for it, nor do we say it because we want to infringe their right to wear whatever. its just realistic to expect that they are placing themselves at higher risk and the only way to minimise these risks is to take action yourself, not expect other people to not present a risk to you in the first place. its not an ideal way to live your life but its sensible and quite frankly necessary in a society where crime, selfishness, stupidity etc will always be prevalent. its human nature
At the end of the day, the position your are defending is that someone shouldn't have to simply have enough self-control over themselves that they don't impulsively spout hurtful shit all over another individual or the community.
You make the argument that the person getting verbally vomited on should have to carry around an umbrella so they don't get it all over their face.
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
It's only controversial in this thread. In many countries you cannot threaten someones life, just like you can't call in a bomb threat to a school and blame it on twitch chat.
my position is that you shouldnt expect everyone else to have as reasonable amount of self control as you. thats stupid, unrealistic and naive. the rest of your post is yes, pretty much what im saying. im failing to see what the issue is?
also, everyone keeps going back to the threat to JD, but that is literally the only comment you could deem "serious". the rest are a joke and pretty much nothing but banter. i am not disagreeing with anyone in regards to threats like JD's, but im making a point when it comes to the rest of the comments which make up like 90% of what "abuse" on internet looks like.
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
A little bit like what Evil above my post said, but I don't think it's exactly correct. He claims that you can't get people to stop... I think you can, but the cost of getting them to stop will be more than the cost of a some people getting a bit offended.
well yeah i was exaggerating a bit when i said you cant get people to stop. it is possible, but like you pointed out, a scenario that is realistically achievable that brings about those kinds of results already has bigger side effects and downsides to the point where its not even an optimal solution. censorship of everything, lack of free speech etc all becomes affected when you try to tackle the issue head on which is why i have just said outright that it may as well be impossible
the bullied can often become the bully themselves. they'll make friends with their bully and do it to other kids as a sort of coping mechanism or as a kind of compromise/escape. i consider this, in part, mob mentality in other areas in life.
either way, it takes time to get out of this habit of treating others poorly and there are more assholes through the processes of it.
i agree that you can stop it by putting in the effort and breaking it up when you can, making someone finally realize that what they're doing has consequences that deprive them of what they want, day to day.
yes, getting stronger always helps, but that's not what everyone wants with themselves, nor do they have the support or the motivation at times to do so. there are positives to being a sensitive person, believe it or not.
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
because its impossible to achieve and foolish to hope for. most of the posters here who disagree with the fact that the victims should take it upon themselves to deal with it better seem to be naive. in an ideal world yes, awareness and education (and punishments if necessary) alone will solve this problem and everyone wont be assholes to each other. but any talk on how this could be achieved is purely theoretical and hopelessly optimistic. the truth is you cant prevent this just like how you cant prevent any other crime from happening. its up to yourself to take measures to reduce your exposure to these things and to reduce how much it personally affects you. those cliche statements like "life isnt fair", "people will bring you down" etc. exist for a reason. they are true as fuck so i dunno why people here are preaching theories about how the world should act in order to create some utopian society. its just not achievable.
its the same for the rape argument. we dont say dont wear revealing clothes because we think anyone wearing it is asking for it, nor do we say it because we want to infringe their right to wear whatever. its just realistic to expect that they are placing themselves at higher risk and the only way to minimise these risks is to take action yourself, not expect other people to not present a risk to you in the first place. its not an ideal way to live your life but its sensible and quite frankly necessary in a society where crime, selfishness, stupidity etc will always be prevalent. its human nature
At the end of the day, the position your are defending is that someone shouldn't have to simply have enough self-control over themselves that they don't impulsively spout hurtful shit all over another individual or the community.
You make the argument that the person getting verbally vomited on should have to carry around an umbrella so they don't get it all over their face.
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
It's only controversial in this thread. In many countries you cannot threaten someones life, just like you can't call in a bomb threat to a school and blame it on twitch chat.
I think the message is that if you engage in certain activities, you are at risk for undesired side effects. Engaging in such activities is generally (and certainly in this case) a voluntary decision. People especially sensitive to the side effects should ask themselves if it is wise to engage in said activities. You go to a safari and you are immunocompromised - well, you could develop any number of nasty infections. You go skiing, you end up with a cold or even pneumonia every damn time. Hell, you drive a car and nothing is wrong with you, you can still get hit by a truck driver who fell asleep on his 36th hour. Complications occur regardless of our precautions and good intentions. The point is to act anyway and not just turn a blind eye and tell people to "suck it up". But, again, if you can't stand isolated flaming from random internet trolls (I'm not talking about systemic harassment by the same person or group, this is serious), then you are not really suited for creating online content, especially in the case of BJs, who interact real-time with their audiences. You do need some sort of umbrella to hide from the occasional splash of vomit. I suppose you keep an umbrella at home and bring it out when it's raining.
And while theoretically prevention, e.g. education, is better than restriction or punishment, in practice it is impossible. Please try educating a 13-year-old, who's mad at the world because he has acne and unpredictable erections, about the foolishness of cyberbullying. Punishment, at least in legal terms, is also impractical. Restriction is the way to go, with automated filters in chat rooms, bans for repeated offences and ostracism by the community, at least in my opinion. A lone troll is a hungry troll.
"People should get over it, develop a thicker skin" < that is cyber-bullying/bullying.
In frogland we actively punish people who have this kind of "fun", and while i know that repression is sub par as such, anyone who says repression shouldn't happen is part of the problem. The real problem is that people want to belong, they want or actually need to use those dangerous avenues.
Lets agree that when people get hurt they will hurt in return. Lets agree that if you help a stranger he will in turn pass it forward. No?
Saying people are 'too sensitive" is bullying, parents do it everyday, teachers .. friends ..colleagues... Rising against this is the solution, countering over and over the stupid rational that we should all be the same, all be strong all be ready to hurt others in order to feel better ourselves.. opposing bullies is the solution.
When you can do this (fight the bully) , you will feel it, it will be your time to act humanely (to act with consideration for more than yourself and your direct environment) and many will not do it out of fear lazyness self centrism direct loss (like getting fired or hurt physically or made fun of by dozens of people in a chat.. there is no difference).
That is the issue: people who can wont and they become people who cant that go increase the numbers of the bully army.
I mean look at voting polls, people have no interest in politics and let the "chips fall where they may" every day! That is a clear sign of apathy/sleuth.
People take for granted liberties they think they have (stuff loads of other people actually fought and died for, that are considered "normal", something you don't have to consistently go back to defend! which is ludicrous sleuth on their part), and it is all dissolving and drowning in a a sea of: "you can find everything and everyone on internet" it is all there 'ripped for the kill"...
It is imperative to fight for a better place everywhere, every day, not just when it suits our own individual back yard.
ps: if you are a dumb f ck cyberbully / bully in real life, we are coming for you. You will recognize us at once when we will confront you, we will offer to help you while refuting any "bs/hate/humor" you might come at us with, with no sort of confrontation against you just a desire to make you come to terms with your problem.. ..when this happens, do recognize that you need help and make the change happen, or be ready for the come uppers that such a vile attitude yields. # bullies need love too, so they can pass it forward
ps: if you are a dumb f ck cyberbully / bully in real life, we are coming for you. You will recognize us at once when we will confront you, do recognize that you need help and make the change happen, or be ready for the come uppers that such an attitude yields. # bullies need love too, so they can pass it forward
Hey, man, none of us here condones what those people do, but are you an anti-bully vigilante? Bullying the bullies, are you? That seems a tad overboard.
ps: if you are a dumb f ck cyberbully / bully in real life, we are coming for you. You will recognize us at once when we will confront you, do recognize that you need help and make the change happen, or be ready for the come uppers that such an attitude yields. # bullies need love too, so they can pass it forward
Hey, man, none of us here condones what those people do, but are you an anti-bully vigilante? Bullying the bullies, are you? That seems a tad overboard.
It isn't. Again, life is easy, you stand up to bullies or die trying. ps: if you are not among the people who can actually face bullies and feel you should do it, do talk to people you trust to get help doing it. No one has to face bullies alone!
Someone earlier in the thread referenced mmsspyte and her own streamer "history". i was a "white knight" on her chat, i was appalled at how she was treated by "boys" online. And i tried to be a part of the solution, that's all it takes, trying to make sh t better. Same for korean tournament chats that had abandoned policing the chat (for a number of reasons) .. i found it awful and tried to make the chatters aware that someone was there to tell em off. It did help, mods re appeared because "freeloaders" like me where there to support the actions the mods did (you don't want to ban people if you can help it, people above you dont ever tell you what to do or not do etc)...
All it takes is one finger in the machine and you will get sucked in whole:
So again, some people can, some can't face bullies.. if you can do it, do it!
in my experience, i was put through multiple extra-curricular classes each week, with two of them being language classes. they took place at colleges and highschools over the weekend and i was 10 at the time. in these same classes, there could be 18 year olds enrolled in the same classes. the older kids would band together in my class and take advantage of some of the younger ones like myself. eventually they would make us do things like fight each other during break. we beat each other up, or we get heavily abused on our own, and so we did what we were told. the other language class was not as abusive but still had the age gaps and rancid bullying.
LOL thats hilarious, I can just imagine it xD
Might be a be a good idea to print your post out, make an appointment with a therapist, and take a good solid hour to discuss what part of child abuse brings you pleasure.
in my experience, i was put through multiple extra-curricular classes each week, with two of them being language classes. they took place at colleges and highschools over the weekend and i was 10 at the time. in these same classes, there could be 18 year olds enrolled in the same classes. the older kids would band together in my class and take advantage of some of the younger ones like myself. eventually they would make us do things like fight each other during break. we beat each other up, or we get heavily abused on our own, and so we did what we were told. the other language class was not as abusive but still had the age gaps and rancid bullying.
LOL thats hilarious, I can just imagine it xD
Might be a be a good idea to print your post out, make an appointment with a therapist, and take a good solid hour to discuss what part of child abuse brings you pleasure.
And proof reading, "that's"
I dont even...
That's the part where you go find out what he's on about. Don't be scared, the nice you is way more cool/chill/hip/whatever good than the slick you.
in my experience, i was put through multiple extra-curricular classes each week, with two of them being language classes. they took place at colleges and highschools over the weekend and i was 10 at the time. in these same classes, there could be 18 year olds enrolled in the same classes. the older kids would band together in my class and take advantage of some of the younger ones like myself. eventually they would make us do things like fight each other during break. we beat each other up, or we get heavily abused on our own, and so we did what we were told. the other language class was not as abusive but still had the age gaps and rancid bullying.
LOL thats hilarious, I can just imagine it xD
Might be a be a good idea to print your post out, make an appointment with a therapist, and take a good solid hour to discuss what part of child abuse brings you pleasure.
And proof reading, "that's"
I dont even...
That's the part where you go find out what he's on about. Don't be scared, the nice you is way more cool/chill/hip/whatever good than the slick you.
No I am talking about the part where he corrected the grammar... The rest is just usual forum social-justice babble. I do rather than type, thanks. Have a good day!
in my experience, i was put through multiple extra-curricular classes each week, with two of them being language classes. they took place at colleges and highschools over the weekend and i was 10 at the time. in these same classes, there could be 18 year olds enrolled in the same classes. the older kids would band together in my class and take advantage of some of the younger ones like myself. eventually they would make us do things like fight each other during break. we beat each other up, or we get heavily abused on our own, and so we did what we were told. the other language class was not as abusive but still had the age gaps and rancid bullying.
LOL thats hilarious, I can just imagine it xD
Might be a be a good idea to print your post out, make an appointment with a therapist, and take a good solid hour to discuss what part of child abuse brings you pleasure.
And proof reading, "that's"
I dont even...
That's the part where you go find out what he's on about. Don't be scared, the nice you is way more cool/chill/hip/whatever good than the slick you.
No I am talking about the part where he corrected the grammar... The rest is just usual forum social-justice babble. I do rather than type, thanks. Have a good day!
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
I know right?
People between these two options: 1) telling assholes to stop being assholes; 2) telling victims to grow a thicker skin; choose the second one because it's the lazier and they don't have to do anything to change the situation. We call them status quo warriors.
On September 27 2017 18:06 fluidrone wrote: Cyber-bullying is bullying.
"People should get over it, develop a thicker skin" < that is cyber-bullying/bullying.
In frogland we actively punish people who have this kind of "fun", and while i know that repression is sub par as such, anyone who says repression shouldn't happen is part of the problem. The real problem is that people want to belong, they want or actually need to use those dangerous avenues.
Lets agree that when people get hurt they will hurt in return. Lets agree that if you help a stranger he will in turn pass it forward. No?
Saying people are 'too sensitive" is bullying, parents do it everyday, teachers .. friends ..colleagues... Rising against this is the solution, countering over and over the stupid rational that we should all be the same, all be strong all be ready to hurt others in order to feel better ourselves.. opposing bullies is the solution.
When you can do this (fight the bully) , you will feel it, it will be your time to act humanely (to act with consideration for more than yourself and your direct environment) and many will not do it out of fear lazyness self centrism direct loss (like getting fired or hurt physically or made fun of by dozens of people in a chat.. there is no difference).
That is the issue: people who can wont and they become people who cant that go increase the numbers of the bully army.
I mean look at voting polls, people have no interest in politics and let the "chips fall where they may" every day! That is a clear sign of apathy/sleuth.
People take for granted liberties they think they have (stuff loads of other people actually fought and died for, that are considered "normal", something you don't have to consistently go back to defend! which is ludicrous sleuth on their part), and it is all dissolving and drowning in a a sea of: "you can find everything and everyone on internet" it is all there 'ripped for the kill"...
It is imperative to fight for a better place everywhere, every day, not just when it suits our own individual back yard.
ps: if you are a dumb f ck cyberbully / bully in real life, we are coming for you. You will recognize us at once when we will confront you, we will offer to help you while refuting any "bs/hate/humor" you might come at us with, with no sort of confrontation against you just a desire to make you come to terms with your problem.. ..when this happens, do recognize that you need help and make the change happen, or be ready for the come uppers that such a vile attitude yields. # bullies need love too, so they can pass it forward
I haven't laughed so long for a every long time. Thanks for the laughs.
Lets agree that when people get hurt they will hurt in return. Lets agree that if you help a stranger he will in turn pass it forward.
On September 27 2017 18:06 fluidrone wrote: Cyber-bullying is bullying.
"People should get over it, develop a thicker skin" < that is cyber-bullying/bullying.
In frogland we actively punish people who have this kind of "fun", and while i know that repression is sub par as such, anyone who says repression shouldn't happen is part of the problem. The real problem is that people want to belong, they want or actually need to use those dangerous avenues.
Lets agree that when people get hurt they will hurt in return. Lets agree that if you help a stranger he will in turn pass it forward. No?
Saying people are 'too sensitive" is bullying, parents do it everyday, teachers .. friends ..colleagues... Rising against this is the solution, countering over and over the stupid rational that we should all be the same, all be strong all be ready to hurt others in order to feel better ourselves.. opposing bullies is the solution.
When you can do this (fight the bully) , you will feel it, it will be your time to act humanely (to act with consideration for more than yourself and your direct environment) and many will not do it out of fear lazyness self centrism direct loss (like getting fired or hurt physically or made fun of by dozens of people in a chat.. there is no difference).
That is the issue: people who can wont and they become people who cant that go increase the numbers of the bully army.
I mean look at voting polls, people have no interest in politics and let the "chips fall where they may" every day! That is a clear sign of apathy/sleuth.
People take for granted liberties they think they have (stuff loads of other people actually fought and died for, that are considered "normal", something you don't have to consistently go back to defend! which is ludicrous sleuth on their part), and it is all dissolving and drowning in a a sea of: "you can find everything and everyone on internet" it is all there 'ripped for the kill"...
It is imperative to fight for a better place everywhere, every day, not just when it suits our own individual back yard.
ps: if you are a dumb f ck cyberbully / bully in real life, we are coming for you. You will recognize us at once when we will confront you, we will offer to help you while refuting any "bs/hate/humor" you might come at us with, with no sort of confrontation against you just a desire to make you come to terms with your problem.. ..when this happens, do recognize that you need help and make the change happen, or be ready for the come uppers that such a vile attitude yields. # bullies need love too, so they can pass it forward
I haven't laughed so long for a every long time. Thanks for the laughs.
What is this thread? Does this really mean, somebody made a TV advertisement, because once on a stream, somebody told Innovation that he is a bad player, and after that, Innovation could not sleep for two weeks and was crying every day for a few hours? Seriously?
Is this an advertisement, which is telling people "If you tell to Innovation that he is a bad player, he will be very unhappy" so that everybody with a bad mood starts doing it? Seriously?
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
I know right?
People between these two options: 1) telling assholes to stop being assholes; 2) telling victims to grow a thicker skin; choose the second one because it's the lazier and they don't have to do anything to change the situation. We call them status quo warriors.
How is typing that victims should grow thicker skin lazier than typing that people should stop being assholes?
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
I know right?
People between these two options: 1) telling assholes to stop being assholes; 2) telling victims to grow a thicker skin; choose the second one because it's the lazier and they don't have to do anything to change the situation. We call them status quo warriors.
If any of you knew my history with TL or growing up in the SC community then you would understand my position and why I was cyber bullied over the years, but because you don't, you'll never understand why "growing a thicker skin" is probably the best way to combat this. I always report cyberbullying during my games, or streams because that's all you can really do in the hopes they get banned, and don't just go a buy a new game to circumvent the ban.
By telling a person to stop being an asshole, that won't do anything. You're living in a chamber if you think that helps. When was the last time you tried to stop a person from being a cyber bully and see it work? Probably never. Either you report, block the person, mute them, or ignore the cancer. There's literally nothing else you can do. It's the internet, and if you want better protection, good job losing some of your own free speech online.
in my experience, i was put through multiple extra-curricular classes each week, with two of them being language classes. they took place at colleges and highschools over the weekend and i was 10 at the time. in these same classes, there could be 18 year olds enrolled in the same classes. the older kids would band together in my class and take advantage of some of the younger ones like myself. eventually they would make us do things like fight each other during break. we beat each other up, or we get heavily abused on our own, and so we did what we were told. the other language class was not as abusive but still had the age gaps and rancid bullying.
LOL thats hilarious, I can just imagine it xD
Might be a be a good idea to print your post out, make an appointment with a therapist, and take a good solid hour to discuss what part of child abuse brings you pleasure.
And proof reading, "that's"
I dont even...
That's the part where you go find out what he's on about. Don't be scared, the nice you is way more cool/chill/hip/whatever good than the slick you.
No I am talking about the part where he corrected the grammar... The rest is just usual forum social-justice babble. I do rather than type, thanks. Have a good day!
It's the parts of ourself that we deny the most, that actually end up causing harm.
Let me restate what I said earlier.
When someone shares a story about legit child abuse that they experienced in regard to a similar situation as the topic...
and then you respond with "LOL thats hilarious, i can imagine it xD"
Then you are missing the person completely. The statement is really just about you, that you think his abuse is funny and usually people derive pleasure from what they think is funny or entertaining (or tell me how I'm suppose to take your statement because I don't see another way to interpret it).
Maybe you were just flippantly throwing shit down on the internet, first thing to come to you mind, and bleh... put it on the internet. But if you really do find shit like that funny, then I don't know what part of yourself you had to turn off to see it that way.
My guess is if it was happening in front of you, you might see the whole thing differently (I hope so at least).
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
because its impossible to achieve and foolish to hope for. most of the posters here who disagree with the fact that the victims should take it upon themselves to deal with it better seem to be naive. in an ideal world yes, awareness and education (and punishments if necessary) alone will solve this problem and everyone wont be assholes to each other. but any talk on how this could be achieved is purely theoretical and hopelessly optimistic. the truth is you cant prevent this just like how you cant prevent any other crime from happening. its up to yourself to take measures to reduce your exposure to these things and to reduce how much it personally affects you. those cliche statements like "life isnt fair", "people will bring you down" etc. exist for a reason. they are true as fuck so i dunno why people here are preaching theories about how the world should act in order to create some utopian society. its just not achievable.
its the same for the rape argument. we dont say dont wear revealing clothes because we think anyone wearing it is asking for it, nor do we say it because we want to infringe their right to wear whatever. its just realistic to expect that they are placing themselves at higher risk and the only way to minimise these risks is to take action yourself, not expect other people to not present a risk to you in the first place. its not an ideal way to live your life but its sensible and quite frankly necessary in a society where crime, selfishness, stupidity etc will always be prevalent. its human nature
At the end of the day, the position your are defending is that someone shouldn't have to simply have enough self-control over themselves that they don't impulsively spout hurtful shit all over another individual or the community.
You make the argument that the person getting verbally vomited on should have to carry around an umbrella so they don't get it all over their face.
Please tell me how you are saying anything less?
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
It's only controversial in this thread. In many countries you cannot threaten someones life, just like you can't call in a bomb threat to a school and blame it on twitch chat.
my position is that you shouldnt expect everyone else to have as reasonable amount of self control as you. thats stupid, unrealistic and naive. the rest of your post is yes, pretty much what im saying. im failing to see what the issue is?
also, everyone keeps going back to the threat to JD, but that is literally the only comment you could deem "serious". the rest are a joke and pretty much nothing but banter. i am not disagreeing with anyone in regards to threats like JD's, but im making a point when it comes to the rest of the comments which make up like 90% of what "abuse" on internet looks like.
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
A little bit like what Evil above my post said, but I don't think it's exactly correct. He claims that you can't get people to stop... I think you can, but the cost of getting them to stop will be more than the cost of a some people getting a bit offended.
well yeah i was exaggerating a bit when i said you cant get people to stop. it is possible, but like you pointed out, a scenario that is realistically achievable that brings about those kinds of results already has bigger side effects and downsides to the point where its not even an optimal solution. censorship of everything, lack of free speech etc all becomes affected when you try to tackle the issue head on which is why i have just said outright that it may as well be impossible
Yes, it is unreasonable to assume everyone will have as much reasonable control as you maybe, but here is my subtle difference in opinion.
*The onus should always fall on the person who is acting out to exercise some degree of consideration or self control.
In this case someone is making a comment about the streamer, and has to exercise some level of awareness about what they say. The streamer also has to exercise this caution or his stream will be banned, it goes both ways. On both sides it is up to each person to take care of themselves... This is just like any relationship.
So you could say, toughen up for the streamer, but the streamer isn't saying anything harmful or that would warrant restraint, he/she is just playing a game.
The watcher is saying something hurtful/harmful, so the onus in my opinion falls on them to exercise restraint and consideration.
This is true for all aspects of society in our day to day life. People as a culture have been moving this direction for decades in one way or another. If someone is acting out in a potentially harmful way, he/she needs to be given support and develop the awareness to channel that part of themselves into something not harmful.
If someone walking down the street acting harmful to people, it is not everyone elses' job to effectively protect themselves, our cultures say that the person acting out needs to curb their behavior or speech.
no. like multiple people have pointed out, myself included, what "should" be done is different to what actually happens. its time for you to face reality it seems. im glad you brought up the culture issue in regards to how we try to get others to change their ways. i personally think with all the politically correctness, sense of entitlement, privilege and a whole load of other shit, society has gone soft. all the older generations talk shit about how younger generations, particularly millenials are pussies and theyre probably correct. hardly anyone i know who are considerably older took shit from anyone and they didnt expect anything from anybody. at some point we decided to say to the younger generations not to worry because the world is theirs and they could do and be whatever they wanted, which is an absolute load of crap. people need to stop living in fantasies and realise there are people out there that dont give a shit about others. this has turned into more of a rant thats only tangentially related to op, so ill say no more.
On September 28 2017 09:51 evilfatsh1t wrote: no. like multiple people have pointed out, myself included, what "should" be done is different to what actually happens. its time for you to face reality it seems. im glad you brought up the culture issue in regards to how we try to get others to change their ways. i personally think with all the politically correctness, sense of entitlement, privilege and a whole load of other shit, society has gone soft. all the older generations talk shit about how younger generations, particularly millenials are pussies and theyre probably correct. hardly anyone i know who are considerably older took shit from anyone and they didnt expect anything from anybody. at some point we decided to say to the younger generations not to worry because the world is theirs and they could do and be whatever they wanted, which is an absolute load of crap. people need to stop living in fantasies and realise there are people out there that dont give a shit about others. this has turned into more of a rant thats only tangentially related to op, so ill say no more.
no. you are wrong
p.s. is there a way to "report" the whole thread? I like the discussion, but this thread makes me not want to visit TL - it's one of the worst displays I've seen on this forum..
On September 28 2017 09:51 evilfatsh1t wrote: no. like multiple people have pointed out, myself included, what "should" be done is different to what actually happens. its time for you to face reality it seems. im glad you brought up the culture issue in regards to how we try to get others to change their ways. i personally think with all the politically correctness, sense of entitlement, privilege and a whole load of other shit, society has gone soft. all the older generations talk shit about how younger generations, particularly millenials are pussies and theyre probably correct. hardly anyone i know who are considerably older took shit from anyone and they didnt expect anything from anybody. at some point we decided to say to the younger generations not to worry because the world is theirs and they could do and be whatever they wanted, which is an absolute load of crap. people need to stop living in fantasies and realise there are people out there that dont give a shit about others. this has turned into more of a rant thats only tangentially related to op, so ill say no more.
I literally have no clue what you are talking about at this point, but at least we can agree on that.
You are holding strong to your idea, some small distinction about Korean culture or how people are too big of a bunch of pussies.
I completely disagree. In my mind (and in the mind of many other strong men), caring for someone else and showing compassion for someone, is a supreme act of strength. Saying people are too soft, is the same nonsense that suggests if a man cries he is less of a man. It's objectively not true.
Nothing excuses a person from acting like an asshole or saying harmful shit to other people. It's the individual responsibility of everyone to understand how our actions impact the world around us and master our life. Otherwise that person is just a flailing unconscious robot acting out every impulse in disregard to how it affects him or the world around him.
Not everyone will do that, but it doesn't change the reality that it's their responsibility and ultimately nobody can do it but them.
I'm going to end this saying that I'm happy to disagree.
On September 27 2017 09:22 Hikki_Hibiki1 wrote: I don't understand why "hey let's stop being assholes to people online" is such a controversial thing to say.
I know right?
People between these two options: 1) telling assholes to stop being assholes; 2) telling victims to grow a thicker skin; choose the second one because it's the lazier and they don't have to do anything to change the situation. We call them status quo warriors.
How is typing that victims should grow thicker skin lazier than typing that people should stop being assholes?
Because one requires you to be an advocate for someone else, which actually takes effort and courage.
this is one of the best anti-bullying campains I've ever seen, altho I didn't see that much.
It simply points out the fact that this 'character' you see on the screen, and that feels distanced from you, is a very real human being who can be very hurt by your non-thought-out comment, that you justify as not meaning anything as it's the internet, and you're a random guy.
It points out the humanity, and can increase empathy, which in theory is the antidote for bullying.
Some anti bullying arguments shame the bully (you're an unhappy person if you're bullying, shame's on you), or simply attach labels 'BAD' to bullying, which is a form of manipulation. Showing that bullying truly hurts another person, and affects their health, is one component of the most fruitful approach I see. The other component is focusing on bullying victims to strenghten their personal boundaries and learn to be more rooted in themselves and generally be rocked by people less.
On September 28 2017 09:51 evilfatsh1t wrote: no. like multiple people have pointed out, myself included, what "should" be done is different to what actually happens. its time for you to face reality it seems. im glad you brought up the culture issue in regards to how we try to get others to change their ways. i personally think with all the politically correctness, sense of entitlement, privilege and a whole load of other shit, society has gone soft. all the older generations talk shit about how younger generations, particularly millenials are pussies and theyre probably correct. hardly anyone i know who are considerably older took shit from anyone and they didnt expect anything from anybody. at some point we decided to say to the younger generations not to worry because the world is theirs and they could do and be whatever they wanted, which is an absolute load of crap. people need to stop living in fantasies and realise there are people out there that dont give a shit about others. this has turned into more of a rant thats only tangentially related to op, so ill say no more.
no. you are wrong
p.s. is there a way to "report" the whole thread? I like the discussion, but this thread makes me not want to visit TL - it's one of the worst displays I've seen on this forum..
Because not everyone is agreeing with you? How dare they...
People shouldn't be assholes but the border between harmless/fun banter and actual Insult isn't clear cut and trying to police this seems pretty much impossible whiteout going way over board. Growing a thicker skin is the most practical solution. Maybe report truely harsh comments but all else will just make the online experience boring.
btw: The Internet used to be at least as rough in the 90ies/early 00... And it wasn't mainstream so bitching about someone that hurt your feelings online would have made you look incredibly stupid (and weak).
It's not about just growing a thicker skin people aren't understanding. You yourself need to learn to report or mute some one who is being cancerous. Why continue letting them bully you if you don't like it? Or maybe you do? It's a weird line to cross, and try to debate about. The best possible solution is to teach how to respond to cyberbullies by reporting, muting, ignoring...
If you're complaining about being bullied, then do something about it, why are you waiting for some one else to do something about it? Life isn't always handed to you. Especially on the internet.
If you can't see blood you shouldn't become a doctor. If you hate screaming children you shouldn't become a teacher. If you can't deal with toxic comments in the internet you shouldn't become a streamer. It's as simple as that, getting people to stop typing toxic comments is as practical as getting children to stop screaming.
On September 28 2017 09:51 evilfatsh1t wrote: no. like multiple people have pointed out, myself included, what "should" be done is different to what actually happens. its time for you to face reality it seems. im glad you brought up the culture issue in regards to how we try to get others to change their ways. i personally think with all the politically correctness, sense of entitlement, privilege and a whole load of other shit, society has gone soft. all the older generations talk shit about how younger generations, particularly millenials are pussies and theyre probably correct. hardly anyone i know who are considerably older took shit from anyone and they didnt expect anything from anybody. at some point we decided to say to the younger generations not to worry because the world is theirs and they could do and be whatever they wanted, which is an absolute load of crap. people need to stop living in fantasies and realise there are people out there that dont give a shit about others. this has turned into more of a rant thats only tangentially related to op, so ill say no more.
I literally have no clue what you are talking about at this point, but at least we can agree on that.
You are holding strong to your idea, some small distinction about Korean culture or how people are too big of a bunch of pussies.
I completely disagree. In my mind (and in the mind of many other strong men), caring for someone else and showing compassion for someone, is a supreme act of strength. Saying people are too soft, is the same nonsense that suggests if a man cries he is less of a man. It's objectively not true.
Nothing excuses a person from acting like an asshole or saying harmful shit to other people. It's the individual responsibility of everyone to understand how our actions impact the world around us and master our life. Otherwise that person is just a flailing unconscious robot acting out every impulse in disregard to how it affects him or the world around him.
Not everyone will do that, but it doesn't change the reality that it's their responsibility and ultimately nobody can do it but them.
I'm going to end this saying that I'm happy to disagree.
Ok, imma try to explain what I do think evil wants to say.
In France, we've got a saying, that says : "Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien."
Which can roughly get translated like : "The best is the enemy of the good."
You, kind sir, are basically saying that there should be no cyber bullying at that to achieve this end, one should adress the primary cause. You, kind sir, wants the BEST.
He (evil), is basically saying that no one (like in one person or even group of individual), is able to actually prevent cyber-bulliers to cyber-bully. According to that hypothesis, if one wants to stop cyber-bullying, the only way to do so (since you can't stop cyber-bullier to cyber-bully) is to actually work on himself so that cyber-bully does not have any effect on him. He wants the "GOOD" (I put that into quote marks cause i'm not sure it's the good).
Now, my point is that you actually need both of the ways to achieve the goal. Because, in this vast world, we humans are not the same. Meaning, that you all have different tolerancies to things. Some will be adament to external and unbased criticism. Some won't be. Guess what ?! Some that aren't could try to "harden their skin a bit more", so that criticism like the one Flash received does not get to them. However, even tho they hardened their skin, ones like the one Jaedong received MUST be punished. That's why a thoughest law enforcement on that point is also needed.
Between two extremes, one should always choose the middle. (And, choosing the middle does NOT imply do nothing. It implies do things woth ways, a little of both.)
When these sorts of issues come up, every person says one group must undergo a change.
Why on Earth should it ever be the victim that we push and declare to be in the wrong? They didn't create this problem. They didn't harm anybody else. They were just trying to do their job, or live their lives. By telling them that they are the ones who must change, we are saying that the bullies have impunity. We are saying that they have the power to say whatever they like, to harm whomever they like, and never get told to stop or change their behavior. In fact, quite the opposite. They are given the power to force anyone and everyone to either accept the abuse or run away.
In effect, you're telling the person who sent Jaedong a death threat that he was right.
On September 29 2017 05:11 Circumstance wrote: When these sorts of issues come up, every person says one group must undergo a change.
Why on Earth should it ever be the victim that we push and declare to be in the wrong? They didn't create this problem. They didn't harm anybody else. They were just trying to do their job, or live their lives. By telling them that they are the ones who must change, we are saying that the bullies have impunity. We are saying that they have the power to say whatever they like, to harm whomever they like, and never get told to stop or change their behavior. In fact, quite the opposite. They are given the power to force anyone and everyone to either accept the abuse or run away.
In effect, you're telling the person who sent Jaedong a death threat that he was right.
So you're also saying Jaedong should just wait and see if this guy will come at his throat with a knife? Or should Jaedong report his ass to the police? There's a huge difference between both actions... One requiring you to do something, and not hope some one will spoon feed you your actions.
On September 29 2017 05:11 Circumstance wrote: When these sorts of issues come up, every person says one group must undergo a change.
Why on Earth should it ever be the victim that we push and declare to be in the wrong? They didn't create this problem. They didn't harm anybody else. They were just trying to do their job, or live their lives. By telling them that they are the ones who must change, we are saying that the bullies have impunity. We are saying that they have the power to say whatever they like, to harm whomever they like, and never get told to stop or change their behavior. In fact, quite the opposite. They are given the power to force anyone and everyone to either accept the abuse or run away.
In effect, you're telling the person who sent Jaedong a death threat that he was right.
Nobody is saying that.
The people for the other side are saying that in an ideal world, it'd be great if we had no war and everyone could get along with everyone, however the costs of making that happen are too large and impractical. Same with trying to enforce people from not being assholes on the internet, not worth it.
Having ideals is nice, because it gives you a direction for what to strive for, but there's usually multiple conflicting ones:
-Personal liberty vs social responsibility (maximizing individual happiness vs collective happiness) -Current generation vs future generations (environment vs economy)
Practically anything that could be changed that results in a win-win situation for everyone has already been done, and therefore most changes that occur are wins for some stakeholders and losses for the others. That's where cost-benefit analysis (CBA) comes in, and yes, this is a difficult situation to quantify, but it's possible.
Thing is you are saying that. Circumstance is perfectly right.
Every time you leave victims on their own to face their bullies, we all lose.
There are no degrees to be reviewed on what is bullying, we all recognize it when we see it. And most of us run from it, but not everyone, not every time.
Personally it took me 12 years or so to get it, i was until then oblivious to real life, very free and very happy and then i wasn't. Everyone loses his innocence one day, for some it takes decades others less. That you were not subjected to this eye opening stuff makes you lucky, not stronger.
Fear can rule us, or we can choose to not let it make us what we will be, what we are.
Arguing that internet was worse before? Arguing that it is a lost cause? Arguing that the victim should know better or become insensitive*? Then you are completely blind.
*insensitive like you all profess to be, which is the root of the problem, it validates your own stance (to each his/ her own problems / look the other way / say it is hopeless etc) and makes it feel "normal".
This world is not lost, it never was, it never will be. And internet is the real world too, not a pretend world like so many seem to think. Arguing that this world is lost is doing your part to destroy it, destroy all that many people fight / died to get to you.
#you owe them to try
ps: again, if you are being bullied, seek help to end this situation, not only will it not resolve the situation to run from it, it will make you a part of the problem. Seek help, no one should face bullies alone!
The way you behave when you're anonymous really says a lot about your character (occasional trolling or funny shenanigans is fine, just not the incredibly toxic or abusive shit).
On September 28 2017 09:51 evilfatsh1t wrote: no. like multiple people have pointed out, myself included, what "should" be done is different to what actually happens. its time for you to face reality it seems. im glad you brought up the culture issue in regards to how we try to get others to change their ways. i personally think with all the politically correctness, sense of entitlement, privilege and a whole load of other shit, society has gone soft. all the older generations talk shit about how younger generations, particularly millenials are pussies and theyre probably correct. hardly anyone i know who are considerably older took shit from anyone and they didnt expect anything from anybody. at some point we decided to say to the younger generations not to worry because the world is theirs and they could do and be whatever they wanted, which is an absolute load of crap. people need to stop living in fantasies and realise there are people out there that dont give a shit about others. this has turned into more of a rant thats only tangentially related to op, so ill say no more.
I literally have no clue what you are talking about at this point, but at least we can agree on that.
You are holding strong to your idea, some small distinction about Korean culture or how people are too big of a bunch of pussies.
I completely disagree. In my mind (and in the mind of many other strong men), caring for someone else and showing compassion for someone, is a supreme act of strength. Saying people are too soft, is the same nonsense that suggests if a man cries he is less of a man. It's objectively not true.
Nothing excuses a person from acting like an asshole or saying harmful shit to other people. It's the individual responsibility of everyone to understand how our actions impact the world around us and master our life. Otherwise that person is just a flailing unconscious robot acting out every impulse in disregard to how it affects him or the world around him.
Not everyone will do that, but it doesn't change the reality that it's their responsibility and ultimately nobody can do it but them.
I'm going to end this saying that I'm happy to disagree.
Ok, imma try to explain what I do think evil wants to say.
In France, we've got a saying, that says : "Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien."
Which can roughly get translated like : "The best is the enemy of the good."
You, kind sir, are basically saying that there should be no cyber bullying at that to achieve this end, one should adress the primary cause. You, kind sir, wants the BEST.
He (evil), is basically saying that no one (like in one person or even group of individual), is able to actually prevent cyber-bulliers to cyber-bully. According to that hypothesis, if one wants to stop cyber-bullying, the only way to do so (since you can't stop cyber-bullier to cyber-bully) is to actually work on himself so that cyber-bully does not have any effect on him. He wants the "GOOD" (I put that into quote marks cause i'm not sure it's the good).
Now, my point is that you actually need both of the ways to achieve the goal. Because, in this vast world, we humans are not the same. Meaning, that you all have different tolerancies to things. Some will be adament to external and unbased criticism. Some won't be. Guess what ?! Some that aren't could try to "harden their skin a bit more", so that criticism like the one Flash received does not get to them. However, even tho they hardened their skin, ones like the one Jaedong received MUST be punished. That's why a thoughest law enforcement on that point is also needed.
Between two extremes, one should always choose the middle. (And, choosing the middle does NOT imply do nothing. It implies do things woth ways, a little of both.)
This is about people taking responsibility for the impact they have on the world around them. Not just failing through life unconsciously, while not caring at all how it affects anyone. It's about living with enough skill and caring that you can shape life into something you wanted for you and others.
Someone acting as a bully isn't living with any skill, they are acting out unconsciously. They don't understand how to shape the world, unless they do it through hurt.
Let the person who has had something abusive said to them take the responsibility of working with their experience (cry, report it, be with the feelings inside, use drugs to cope). It is only them who can make the next step.
What many people in this thread (so strangely) fail to mention...
*Let the person who is speaking harmful abusive speech to another person take responsibility for working with the feelings inside (or lack of feelings, empathy), lack of awareness of the impact they are having on the world, or the lack of care of the impact they have on the world. More so than anything, we should be stressing this person address him/herself because they are causing harm.
And they are at the largest deficit of skill for being able to manage the experience of being alive.
Some bad bullies, of the worst sort, become wildly succsesfull. Some for the same reasons that make them assholes, some for entirely diffrent reasons. It has nothing to do with being smart. Telling yourself that these people are losers is just adorable.
Once you turn 25-30i plus much of this seems ridiculous. Many people are assholes, don't be an asshole. I life by that simple motto, sometimes i fail, sometimes i'm surprised about my own courage but i'm very sure not growing a thick skin because "you shouldn't have to" is a reciepe for disaster. You will meet assholes, obvious and backstabbing ones, learn to deal with them.
On September 28 2017 09:51 evilfatsh1t wrote: i personally think with all the politically correctness, sense of entitlement, privilege and a whole load of other shit, society has gone soft. all the older generations talk shit about how younger generations, particularly millenials are pussies and theyre probably correct.
This same attitude is used to justify all the social ills and past atrocities done by humanity.
On September 28 2017 09:51 evilfatsh1t wrote: i personally think with all the politically correctness, sense of entitlement, privilege and a whole load of other shit, society has gone soft. all the older generations talk shit about how younger generations, particularly millenials are pussies and theyre probably correct.
This same attitude is used to justify all the social ills and past atrocities done by humanity.
On September 28 2017 09:51 evilfatsh1t wrote: i personally think with all the politically correctness, sense of entitlement, privilege and a whole load of other shit, society has gone soft. all the older generations talk shit about how younger generations, particularly millenials are pussies and theyre probably correct.
This same attitude is used to justify all the social ills and past atrocities done by humanity.
It is. What's your point?
Millennials should ignore out-of-touch old fogies who make sweeping generalizations of younger people like calling them entitled, privileged and "pussies." Whenever you hear someone saying "society has gone soft" there's a good chance you're listening to someone with post-traumatic stress disorder. Empathic ability impairment is one of the most common symptoms.
But there is another, competing and decidedly conservative sense that is common to veterans: that American society has gone soft and is filled with whiners, an entitlement culture lacking a sense of individual accountability. One veteran who served in Congress described his whining civilian colleagues as "a professional bed-wetting society." Indeed, it is hard to imagine a value structure more different from military life than the national political culture of blather and complaint. "The toughest part of leadership is telling people they have to do something that involves pain," says Eric Greitens, a former Navy SEAL who runs a program for badly wounded returning veterans called the Mission Continues. "We had to do that every day: 'At 0100 we're going to stage a raid. The enemy is heavily armed and waiting for us. I can't promise you we're going to accomplish this without casualties. But we need to take out this cell of snipers.' You just don't find many politicians willing to get people to do tough things."
you ever had someone levy their physicality over you, when you didn't think it was possible, or maybe when you already had an idea about it?
at least the idea is you work on yourself and show them that you're not going to get pushed around any more, right? or, you're seldomly in the situation that it would happen to you anyway.
i've seen this myself, but what about people who are disabled or have extreme difficulty fighting back, or getting help? unfortunately it doesn't change that the whole situation happened for some time before they were able to get help. people also need to find a safe place online whether they have disability or genuinely a hard time finding their place. they'll learn through initiation or in this exact moment is where education and outreach can help out--still factoring in that some people feel they cannot get help, or are too proud to do so.
i know that some of you are laughing or looking down a bit on the social justice warrior/white knight painting something black and white--at least viewing yourself being much more productive in their shoes by doing it differently. i just want to say that social justice warrior is just another person, just like asshole #1/2.
apparently GSP (mma) was on the receiving end of bullying. he's just another guy.
what i would tell the general masses though is that asshole #1/2 and each bully has their own personalized circumstances for why they're treating people that way. it isn't even a good set of reasons sometimes. they also have sensitivities and sincere care/consideration for friends, family and people close to them. bullied #1/2 also have really trivial reasons why they don't just get help or smarten up. maybe they deserve to get bullied, some would think.
your solution in the case or in the event of getting harassed or bullied around is not the same as someone else's. it's not black and white either. but both people could use help, especially in the case of the victim. it doesn't have to be much but for some people, a little goes a long way.