A grin concludes the game, a giggle and clapping hands that radiate almost childish enthusiasm. The very same grin re-surfaces some time later, when the series concludes. herO emerges from the booth, elated and triumphant. If he were someone else, the mood in the arena would have been far less celebratory. Because like a child whose ridiculous antics we can only forgive for how endearing they are, the one-time CJ ace is often given leave to freely violate the norms we have established for what is proper.
"herO's unerring sense for when the moment is right and his understanding for how to build toward such a moment is his greatest advantage."
Don't get me wrong - herO is unquestioningly polite, and has rarely displayed anything but good moods and contagious smiles. If there is one type of assassination that The Smiling Assassin has never sunk to, it is the assassination of character. He lets the game speak for itself more often than not, and bizarrely seems all the crueler in game the happier his demeanor out of it. For a player famous for his charming smile and affable behavior, herO carries a mean reputation. That Redeye dubbed him an assassin during the 2014 IEM Circuit was more than just spontaneity. The man who would eventually be the first to win three IEM titles was good at many things, but he had a penchant for one in particular: finding the moment to go for the jugular.
Among the things most glorified among Starcraft players, two stand out: being entertaining, and being willing to oblige the standard. Finesse in execution is second to explosive and drawn-out macro play, minute builds far inferior to the games that bounce back and forth because the player with the chance to end it failed to take it. herO continuously defies this norm. Like Life among Zerg players and Mvp among Terrans, herO exhibits the particular ability to not just find a perfect moment, but to seize it. It is different from the antics of sOs, who thrives in absurdity, or PartinG, who often defined tournaments by doing his thing despite being predictable, knowing that the proper control would see his all-ins through no matter what. More so, herO's unerring sense for when the moment is right and his understanding for how to build toward such a moment is his greatest advantage.
Winrate
62.97% vs. Terran 71.43% vs. Protoss 63.94% vs. Zerg
Rank
Circuit Standings 7
WCS Points
6775
Rumors that practice is lacking have always circulated about Korean players. In the days of the old GSL Group Selections, it was as much a joke as it was a calculated ploy. Players would one-up one another in a race towards the bottom, a contest in who could convince the others that they were the worst at the moment. If we were to believe Rain, he could barely practice at all, and somehow every player on SKT kept losing to everyone else in practice. Mvp could barely win a game, yet tournament victories kept coming. Sometimes it was hard to tell whether a player's form was the result of unfavorable conditions, or lacking enthusiasm for practice. herO is no stranger to this tradition, and allegedly has long bouts of little to no practice. The classic image of the Korean (KeSPA-bred) player is one of a practice monster, minted by Flash and Jaedong and their ilk, but spread far and wide in Starcraft II by the stories brought back by foreigners that went to practice overseas for a time. NaNiwa and SaSe would log 30, 40 or more games a day when they worked the hardest in the old StarTale house, and their results would plummet when they abandoned this practice regimen.
It seems crazy that a player would knowingly submit themselves to such a seemingly obvious risk for a downturn. But it has unquestionably happened, and herO has been a recurring offender. A player as hell-bent on fine-tuned execution as he has an even greater need for mechanical precision than most players. The difference between a winning build and a floundered tournament can be decided in measurements of seconds, and the difference is almost always palpable. But skipping out on a few extra games each day is neither strange nor unusual in an environment that promotes grueling work days and offers no tangible limit on how much practice input will produce a positive result output. For most, more practice is better, but there is a caveat: motivation fades.
herO, at his best, radiates enthusiasm. The importance of attitude might be a tired trope, but it is endlessly proven true. The players that put in the most work, the players that perform, are almost invariably the players that feel the most passionate about the endless climb of the ladder. One positive result often leads to another, and the best results tend to cluster. At his best, herO deviates from the expected and embraces the lethal. You can tell not only by the way his results go up and down with seasons, but by the way he surges to the top when he finds his groove. He isn't necessarily a maverick by nature, only one of those players that will abandon a previous game plan in favor of winning now. It is the ultimate goal of every player to be able to secure their victories earlier than expected, but few can do it the way herO does. He is at his best when the stakes are high, when his opponents might be wary of taking risks for fear of throwing everything away. He is at his best when he is allowed to go on the offensive, to relentlessly exploit weaknesses. There are no holds barred when herO plays, no forbidden chapter in the aptly named Book of Protoss Bullshit.
How do you best quantify skill in a player who purposely often plays outside the framework we use to evaluate it? Protoss players more than any other are scrutinized when they rely on aggression, scorched by both peers and fans when they use their toolbox to its fullest potential. Elazer wasn't just making a good-hearted joke when he bemoaned the nature of herO's 'abusive' play. When herO is in his groove, when his practice stars have aligned and his desire for his next trophy is at a peak, there is very little that can be done to stop him, and very few that can do it. And complain as they might, little of it seems to bother him. After all, his own unfortunate history has shown that he can be stopped, and the balls are in the courts of his opponents when it comes to doing it.
herO's career has seen no shortage of triumphs. From his groundbreaking IEM trifecta and his impeccable trustworthiness in Proleague to the championships won on foreign soil, herO has encapsulated many of the virtues of Korean Starcraft. Meticulousness, passion, joviality even when going through the motions of a particularly punishing career choice. He is comfortably in the conversation for Best Protoss players of all time, though he still stands steps away from the coveted podium for which less than a handful can contend. A Starleague champion and globetrotter both, there is no particular fault to his career - only the sense that there is more to be done, and more that could have been done. Perhaps it is a matter of practice and motivation for herO. 2016 stained his resume, stuck between two more successful years. Towards the end of 2017, however, herO looks to be back in tremendous shape. He has hit one of his highs at the exact right moment. In Anaheim, he has been afforded an opportunity: elevation, and achieving unquestionable permanence. When we remember herO in a few years, we may no longer talk of a player with huge ups and downs. We may no longer remember him as a man with a bright smile on his face, but as a World Champion. Whether we like it or not, a tournament like BlizzCon is a lasting legacy. In a heartbeat, he can cease being the player everyone only knew was great, but write in stone that he will never be overshadowed.
herO is probably the player at this blizzcon that I dislike the most (well I REALLY dislike his playstyle) I really hope he won't go far in that tournament, even if I feel that he will go at least in semis =(
It seems herO had found a new self after breaking the curse of falling to sOs over and over again, his play at ST2 and Master's Coliseum was surprisingly good, the same old annoying style of him yet with much more confidence and precision in it.
He's always been competent in weekender tournaments so I expect him to do well at Blizzcon. edit: I dislike him as well
On October 21 2017 22:53 Mun_Su wrote: Good wrinting again.
herO is probably the player at this blizzcon that I dislike the most (well I REALLY dislike his playstyle) I really hope he won't go far in that tournament, even if I feel that he will go at least in semis =(
I agree, but at least it's a bit funny.
It should be a real pain to play against him.
But it would be sad if he wins the the blizzcon imo
herO has looked like an absolute beast in the last month or so. If that's gonna be indicative of his perfomance at Blizzcon, I'd definitely say he's the top protoss contender over Stats
LOL. The hatred toward herO is absurd here but I love it. Hate his style all you want. No one can play like he does. Magnificent micro + solid macro + lethal aggression. Also fearless when it comes to crazy builds too unlike many copy/paste players out there.
On October 21 2017 22:53 Mun_Su wrote: Good wrinting again.
herO is probably the player at this blizzcon that I dislike the most (well I REALLY dislike his playstyle) I really hope he won't go far in that tournament, even if I feel that he will go at least in semis =(
I agree, but at least it's a bit funny.
It should be a real pain to play against him.
But it would be sad if he wins the the blizzcon imo
I'd be sad if INno/soO don't win. Very sad if the winner is not at least Dark, TY, Stats or Rogue . Broke if it's herO that win everything. Also I assume that koreans programmers don't read TL, I don't want to be harsh because it's not fair but still really hate his playstyle.
PS: of course it will be fiesta if a For win but I expect nothing of them so...
On October 21 2017 23:53 Vutalisk wrote: LOL. The hatred toward herO is absurd here but I love it. Hate his style all you want. No one can play like he does. Magnificent micro + solid macro + lethal aggression. Also fearless when it comes to crazy builds too unlike many copy/paste players out there.
On October 21 2017 23:53 Vutalisk wrote: LOL. The hatred toward herO is absurd here but I love it. Hate his style all you want. No one can play like he does. Magnificent micro + solid macro + lethal aggression. Also fearless when it comes to crazy builds too unlike many copy/paste players out there.
Gogo herO!
Most of the top level protoss players could play like him if they really wanted to. His only admirable skill is choosing the right builds for each map. His actual execution/control/decision making/reactionary play isn't as impressive
edit: don't think he wins blizzcon though. Toss isn't particularly broken right now, and herO doesn't have what it takes to win events when that's the case (although he looked legitimately good in ST2 which is rare)
On October 21 2017 23:53 Vutalisk wrote: LOL. The hatred toward herO is absurd here but I love it. Hate his style all you want. No one can play like he does. Magnificent micro + solid macro + lethal aggression. Also fearless when it comes to crazy builds too unlike many copy/paste players out there.
Gogo herO!
Most of the top level protoss players could play like him if they really wanted to. His only admirable skill is choosing the right builds for each map. His actual execution/control/decision making/reactionary play isn't as impressive
edit: don't think he wins blizzcon though. Toss isn't particularly broken right now, and herO doesn't have what it takes to win events when that's the case (although he looked legitimately good in ST2 which is rare)
On October 21 2017 23:53 Vutalisk wrote: LOL. The hatred toward herO is absurd here but I love it. Hate his style all you want. No one can play like he does. Magnificent micro + solid macro + lethal aggression. Also fearless when it comes to crazy builds too unlike many copy/paste players out there.
Gogo herO!
Most of the top level protoss players could play like him if they really wanted to. His only admirable skill is choosing the right builds for each map. His actual execution/control/decision making/reactionary play isn't as impressive
edit: don't think he wins blizzcon though. Toss isn't particularly broken right now, and herO doesn't have what it takes to win events when that's the case (although he looked legitimately good in ST2 which is rare)
I really disagree. I think herO lacks in the "smart" department but his execution is where he excels at. herO is the kind of guy to only go for one build no matter the map and stick with it. Who you're describing sounds more like sOs.
On October 21 2017 23:53 Vutalisk wrote: LOL. The hatred toward herO is absurd here but I love it. Hate his style all you want. No one can play like he does. Magnificent micro + solid macro + lethal aggression. Also fearless when it comes to crazy builds too unlike many copy/paste players out there.
Gogo herO!
Most of the top level protoss players could play like him if they really wanted to. His only admirable skill is choosing the right builds for each map. His actual execution/control/decision making/reactionary play isn't as impressive
edit: don't think he wins blizzcon though. Toss isn't particularly broken right now, and herO doesn't have what it takes to win events when that's the case (although he looked legitimately good in ST2 which is rare)
Delusional and ignorant.
Are you even surprised about this when you see his signature? "ROOT_herO is overrated"
On October 21 2017 23:53 Vutalisk wrote: LOL. The hatred toward herO is absurd here but I love it. Hate his style all you want. No one can play like he does. Magnificent micro + solid macro + lethal aggression. Also fearless when it comes to crazy builds too unlike many copy/paste players out there.
Gogo herO!
Most of the top level protoss players could play like him if they really wanted to. His only admirable skill is choosing the right builds for each map. His actual execution/control/decision making/reactionary play isn't as impressive
edit: don't think he wins blizzcon though. Toss isn't particularly broken right now, and herO doesn't have what it takes to win events when that's the case (although he looked legitimately good in ST2 which is rare)
Delusional and ignorant.
Are you even surprised about this when you see his signature? "ROOT_herO is overrated"
He puts him down and tries to dismiss his wins all the time as well.
On October 21 2017 23:53 Vutalisk wrote: LOL. The hatred toward herO is absurd here but I love it. Hate his style all you want. No one can play like he does. Magnificent micro + solid macro + lethal aggression. Also fearless when it comes to crazy builds too unlike many copy/paste players out there.
Gogo herO!
Most of the top level protoss players could play like him if they really wanted to. His only admirable skill is choosing the right builds for each map. His actual execution/control/decision making/reactionary play isn't as impressive
edit: don't think he wins blizzcon though. Toss isn't particularly broken right now, and herO doesn't have what it takes to win events when that's the case (although he looked legitimately good in ST2 which is rare)
You are really mistaken if you honestly believe that, while he may not be the best protoss in terms of reactionary play and decision making his execution, control and multitasking is arguably the best of any protoss. Do you honestly think that any top protoss player could kill a zerg like dark with double archon drop 'if they really wanted to'? Your bias is really obstructing any reasonable analysis it seems.
On October 21 2017 23:53 Vutalisk wrote: LOL. The hatred toward herO is absurd here but I love it. Hate his style all you want. No one can play like he does. Magnificent micro + solid macro + lethal aggression. Also fearless when it comes to crazy builds too unlike many copy/paste players out there.
Gogo herO!
Most of the top level protoss players could play like him if they really wanted to. His only admirable skill is choosing the right builds for each map. His actual execution/control/decision making/reactionary play isn't as impressive
edit: don't think he wins blizzcon though. Toss isn't particularly broken right now, and herO doesn't have what it takes to win events when that's the case (although he looked legitimately good in ST2 which is rare)
Delusional and ignorant.
Are you even surprised about this when you see his signature? "ROOT_herO is overrated"
He puts him down and tries to dismiss his wins all the time as well.
Well, he is either Zest or sOs's fanboy if I'm not mistaken. He seems to care a great deal about herO though. He bothered to change his signature from CJ_herO to ROOT_herO.
I can respect herO's trophies but not the playstyle that earned them. While he is undoubtedly a very skilled player, he is also undoubtedly a cheesy little shit.
I admire Stats for his impenetrable defense, Zest for his impeccable decisions, and sOs for his impossible builds, but herO brings nothing other than bullshit. Superbly executed bullshit, to be fair, but bullshit nonetheless.
His ST1 victory relied entirely on abusing the hell out of Adept/Phoenix, and he slumped significantly with the Adept nerf. Nobody can ask for a better definition of patchtoss than that. In fairness, herO looked legitimately good in ST2, and I think he might be the best Protoss at the moment, but I also hope he falls early at Blizzcon.
On October 22 2017 01:54 pvsnp wrote: I can respect herO's trophies but not the playstyle that earned them. While he is undoubtedly a very skilled player, he is also undoubtedly a cheesy little shit.
I admire Stats for his impenetrable defense, Zest for his impeccable decisions, and sOs for his impossible builds, but herO brings nothing other than bullshit. Superbly executed bullshit, to be fair, but bullshit nonetheless.
His ST1 victory relied entirely on abusing the hell out of Adept/Phoenix, and he slumped significantly with the Adept nerf. Nobody can ask for a better definition of patchtoss than that. In fairness, herO looked legitimately good in ST2, and I think he might be the best Protoss at the moment, but I also hope he falls early at Blizzcon.
On October 21 2017 23:53 Vutalisk wrote: LOL. The hatred toward herO is absurd here but I love it. Hate his style all you want. No one can play like he does. Magnificent micro + solid macro + lethal aggression. Also fearless when it comes to crazy builds too unlike many copy/paste players out there.
Gogo herO!
Most of the top level protoss players could play like him if they really wanted to. His only admirable skill is choosing the right builds for each map. His actual execution/control/decision making/reactionary play isn't as impressive
edit: don't think he wins blizzcon though. Toss isn't particularly broken right now, and herO doesn't have what it takes to win events when that's the case (although he looked legitimately good in ST2 which is rare)
I really disagree. I think herO lacks in the "smart" department but his execution is where he excels at. herO is the kind of guy to only go for one build no matter the map and stick with it. Who you're describing sounds more like sOs.
herO's execution isn't exactly jaw-dropping, it's good but don't think it's something to hype up. People say his micro is amazing but I'm yet to see examples of him doing what other protosses can't. Playing a more micro heavy style (lots of agression with stalkers, warp prisms etc) than other protosses doesn't make him automatically the best either. His lategame army control and awareness certainly isn't.
He tends to choose a specific build/strategy for each map and go for it. That build tends to either simply win or lose, close/back-and-forth games aren't common. Reactionary play also seems to be his weakness. This is why I've always said choosing builds is his best skill. He's preperation skills are underrated.
(I've also always said that he only wins when protoss is broken, I guess people don't share that sentiment but he's yet to prove me wrong on that)
On October 21 2017 23:53 Vutalisk wrote: LOL. The hatred toward herO is absurd here but I love it. Hate his style all you want. No one can play like he does. Magnificent micro + solid macro + lethal aggression. Also fearless when it comes to crazy builds too unlike many copy/paste players out there.
Gogo herO!
Most of the top level protoss players could play like him if they really wanted to. His only admirable skill is choosing the right builds for each map. His actual execution/control/decision making/reactionary play isn't as impressive
edit: don't think he wins blizzcon though. Toss isn't particularly broken right now, and herO doesn't have what it takes to win events when that's the case (although he looked legitimately good in ST2 which is rare)
Delusional and ignorant.
Are you even surprised about this when you see his signature? "ROOT_herO is overrated"
He puts him down and tries to dismiss his wins all the time as well.
Well, he is either Zest or sOs's fanboy if I'm not mistaken. He seems to care a great deal about herO though. He bothered to change his signature from CJ_herO to ROOT_herO.
Well my opinion on herO didn't change but his team did :/
(and you're right about the Zest part but idk what that has to do with herO)
INnoVation's execution isn't exactly jaw-dropping, it's good but I don't think it's something to hype up. People say his macro is amazing but I'm yet to see examples of him doing what other terrans can;t. And playing a more macro heavy style (lots of command centers, mass expanding when out on the map etc) than most terrans doesn't make him automatically the best either. His early game vs protoss or mid game vs zerg certainly isn't.
He tends to choose a specific build/strategy for each map and go for it. That build tends to either simply win or lose, close/back-and-forth games aren't common. Reactionary play also seems to be his weakness. This is why I've always said choosing builds is his best skill. He's preperation skills are underrated.
(I've also always said that he only wins when terran is broken, I guess people don't share that sentiment but he's yet to prove me wrong on that)
That's funny because I've litterally said similar things about Inno recently (think it was in the GSL final thread iirc?). His most noteworthy trait is his ability to win so many tournaments. His actual in-game play always seemed standard for the most part. What sets him apart from other terrans is the fact he wins more than them
herO is easier to devalue because his only win came from adept-pheonix being broken (and this was essentially confirmed by blizzard nerfing it soon after)
On October 22 2017 02:59 Ej_ wrote: INnoVation's execution isn't exactly jaw-dropping, it's good but I don't think it's something to hype up. People say his macro is amazing but I'm yet to see examples of him doing what other terrans can;t. And playing a more macro heavy style (lots of command centers, mass expanding when out on the map etc) than most terrans doesn't make him automatically the best either. His early game vs protoss or mid game vs zerg certainly isn't.
He tends to choose a specific build/strategy for each map and go for it. That build tends to either simply win or lose, close/back-and-forth games aren't common. Reactionary play also seems to be his weakness. This is why I've always said choosing builds is his best skill. He's preperation skills are underrated.
(I've also always said that he only wins when terran is broken, I guess people don't share that sentiment but he's yet to prove me wrong on that)
Post of the year right here. 99% of the hate herO gets is because he plays toss.
On October 22 2017 02:59 Ej_ wrote: INnoVation's execution isn't exactly jaw-dropping, it's good but I don't think it's something to hype up. People say his macro is amazing but I'm yet to see examples of him doing what other terrans can;t. And playing a more macro heavy style (lots of command centers, mass expanding when out on the map etc) than most terrans doesn't make him automatically the best either. His early game vs protoss or mid game vs zerg certainly isn't.
He tends to choose a specific build/strategy for each map and go for it. That build tends to either simply win or lose, close/back-and-forth games aren't common. Reactionary play also seems to be his weakness. This is why I've always said choosing builds is his best skill. He's preperation skills are underrated.
(I've also always said that he only wins when terran is broken, I guess people don't share that sentiment but he's yet to prove me wrong on that)
Post of the year right here. 99% of the hate herO gets is because he plays toss.
Bullshit of the year right here. I'm a huge fan of Stats and Zest, but hate herO. Clean macro players of any race get more respect than dirty cheesers of any race, simple as that.
On October 22 2017 02:59 Ej_ wrote: INnoVation's execution isn't exactly jaw-dropping, it's good but I don't think it's something to hype up. People say his macro is amazing but I'm yet to see examples of him doing what other terrans can;t. And playing a more macro heavy style (lots of command centers, mass expanding when out on the map etc) than most terrans doesn't make him automatically the best either. His early game vs protoss or mid game vs zerg certainly isn't.
He tends to choose a specific build/strategy for each map and go for it. That build tends to either simply win or lose, close/back-and-forth games aren't common. Reactionary play also seems to be his weakness. This is why I've always said choosing builds is his best skill. He's preperation skills are underrated.
(I've also always said that he only wins when terran is broken, I guess people don't share that sentiment but he's yet to prove me wrong on that)
Post of the year right here. 99% of the hate herO gets is because he plays toss.
I'm a big fan of Rain, Dear, Hurricane, MC, Stats, Zest, Has, and sOs. I don't mind guys like Classic, Trust, or Neeb either. So yh I don't think it's just because he plays toss
On October 22 2017 02:59 Ej_ wrote: INnoVation's execution isn't exactly jaw-dropping, it's good but I don't think it's something to hype up. People say his macro is amazing but I'm yet to see examples of him doing what other terrans can;t. And playing a more macro heavy style (lots of command centers, mass expanding when out on the map etc) than most terrans doesn't make him automatically the best either. His early game vs protoss or mid game vs zerg certainly isn't.
He tends to choose a specific build/strategy for each map and go for it. That build tends to either simply win or lose, close/back-and-forth games aren't common. Reactionary play also seems to be his weakness. This is why I've always said choosing builds is his best skill. He's preperation skills are underrated.
(I've also always said that he only wins when terran is broken, I guess people don't share that sentiment but he's yet to prove me wrong on that)
Post of the year right here. 99% of the hate herO gets is because he plays toss.
Bullshit of the year right here. I'm a huge fan of Stats and Zest, but hate herO. Clean macro players of any race get more respect than dirty cheesers of any race, simple as that.
Gtfo with your victim complex.
Zest and clean macro player in the same sentence. I am dieing of laughter right now
People can't get over the fact that herO's playstile is one of the least likeable ever so they bring up the race argument. Well that doesn't work. (even I, who like a lot less protoss than Zerg and Terran, can like protoss like Classic, Rain, Feast, or Dear)
On October 22 2017 02:59 Ej_ wrote: INnoVation's execution isn't exactly jaw-dropping, it's good but I don't think it's something to hype up. People say his macro is amazing but I'm yet to see examples of him doing what other terrans can;t. And playing a more macro heavy style (lots of command centers, mass expanding when out on the map etc) than most terrans doesn't make him automatically the best either. His early game vs protoss or mid game vs zerg certainly isn't.
He tends to choose a specific build/strategy for each map and go for it. That build tends to either simply win or lose, close/back-and-forth games aren't common. Reactionary play also seems to be his weakness. This is why I've always said choosing builds is his best skill. He's preperation skills are underrated.
(I've also always said that he only wins when terran is broken, I guess people don't share that sentiment but he's yet to prove me wrong on that)
Post of the year right here. 99% of the hate herO gets is because he plays toss.
Bullshit of the year right here. I'm a huge fan of Stats and Zest, but hate herO. Clean macro players of any race get more respect than dirty cheesers of any race, simple as that.
Gtfo with your victim complex.
Zest and clean macro player in the same sentence. I am dieing of laughter right now
That's what he was for most of his career. Silly to deny it.
The herO hate is completely unwarranted though. He plays a brand of Protoss that's very aggressive and often aims to kill people early - so what? That's a brilliant skill to have. And it's not like he can't do the standard thing either, although there are players that are better suited to it.
Besides, if people don't like how Protoss wins in LotV, perhaps they should be asking for viable alternatives. But they really haven't been there in LotV.
On October 22 2017 03:23 Mun_Su wrote: People can't get over the fact that herO's playstile is one of the least likeable ever so they bring up the race argument. Well that doesn't work. (even I, who like a lot less protoss than Zerg and Terran, can like protoss like Classic, Rain, Feast, or Dear)
Also Zest is the ghost of his former self
His style may not be likable to you but don't assume everyone else thinks the same way. Also, herO simply uses all the tools in Protoss box to win. That makes him smart and resourceful. No need to play straight-up textbook like Stats. I find it is boring and uninspiring. If you think it is broken, by all mean, balance whine to Blizzard.
In the end of the day, he wins with his strong will and skills regardless his playstyle.
On October 22 2017 02:59 Ej_ wrote: INnoVation's execution isn't exactly jaw-dropping, it's good but I don't think it's something to hype up. People say his macro is amazing but I'm yet to see examples of him doing what other terrans can;t. And playing a more macro heavy style (lots of command centers, mass expanding when out on the map etc) than most terrans doesn't make him automatically the best either. His early game vs protoss or mid game vs zerg certainly isn't.
He tends to choose a specific build/strategy for each map and go for it. That build tends to either simply win or lose, close/back-and-forth games aren't common. Reactionary play also seems to be his weakness. This is why I've always said choosing builds is his best skill. He's preperation skills are underrated.
(I've also always said that he only wins when terran is broken, I guess people don't share that sentiment but he's yet to prove me wrong on that)
Post of the year right here. 99% of the hate herO gets is because he plays toss.
Bullshit of the year right here. I'm a huge fan of Stats and Zest, but hate herO. Clean macro players of any race get more respect than dirty cheesers of any race, simple as that.
Gtfo with your victim complex.
Zest and clean macro player in the same sentence. I am dieing of laughter right now
Zest was a clean macro player for years. He built his name off being one. Laughing at your own ignorance? And strictly speaking, "Zest" and "clean macro player" are not in fact in the same sentence. Also you misspelled "dying."
On October 22 2017 02:59 Ej_ wrote: INnoVation's execution isn't exactly jaw-dropping, it's good but I don't think it's something to hype up. People say his macro is amazing but I'm yet to see examples of him doing what other terrans can;t. And playing a more macro heavy style (lots of command centers, mass expanding when out on the map etc) than most terrans doesn't make him automatically the best either. His early game vs protoss or mid game vs zerg certainly isn't.
He tends to choose a specific build/strategy for each map and go for it. That build tends to either simply win or lose, close/back-and-forth games aren't common. Reactionary play also seems to be his weakness. This is why I've always said choosing builds is his best skill. He's preperation skills are underrated.
(I've also always said that he only wins when terran is broken, I guess people don't share that sentiment but he's yet to prove me wrong on that)
Post of the year right here. 99% of the hate herO gets is because he plays toss.
Bullshit of the year right here. I'm a huge fan of Stats and Zest, but hate herO. Clean macro players of any race get more respect than dirty cheesers of any race, simple as that.
Gtfo with your victim complex.
Zest and clean macro player in the same sentence. I am dieing of laughter right now
Besides, if people don't like how Protoss wins in LotV, perhaps they should be asking for viable alternatives. But they really haven't been there in LotV.
Stats is renowned for playing a defensive macro style, and is the most successful Protoss player of LotV, Seems viable enough to me.
On October 22 2017 03:23 Mun_Su wrote: People can't get over the fact that herO's playstile is one of the least likeable ever so they bring up the race argument. Well that doesn't work. (even I, who like a lot less protoss than Zerg and Terran, can like protoss like Classic, Rain, Feast, or Dear)
Also Zest is the ghost of his former self
His style may not be likable to you but don't assume everyone else thinks the same way. Also, herO simply uses all the tools in Protoss box to win. That makes him smart and resourceful. No need to play straight-up textbook like Stats. I find it is boring and uninspiring. If you think it is broken, by all mean, balance whine to Blizzard.
In the end of the day, he wins with his strong will and skills regardless his playstyle.
Of course herO has the right to choose his own style. And the fans have the right to hate him for it (if they so choose).
I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree?
herO's playstyle is hardly broken, seeing as he has been far less successful than Stats in 2017. Rather, herO's playstyle is simply disgusting to watch. I can respect his wins, but I can't respect his play.
The Great Book of Protoss Bullshit was named as such because it is full of bullshit, not gourmet cheese and fine wine.
I will say that I don't dislike herO purely for his playstyle. Nothing's inherently wrong with being cheesy. I just think he tends to rely on balance issues to win, and isn't on the same level as other protosses when it comes to the wide skillbook of sc2.
And I will stand by my point that he only wins when protoss is OP until proven otherwise. ST1 was a joke in terms of balance.
(also I don't blindly hate him and dismiss his wins like people are saying. When he has legit good performances I credit him for it, ST2 was an example of that)
On October 22 2017 03:47 pvsnp wrote:I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree?
ByuN is or was super popular and he was a dirty cheeser. He might be the dirtiest cheeser of all time since he had one and it was so OP that people would know it was coming and still lose to it.
On October 22 2017 03:47 pvsnp wrote:I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree?
ByuN is or was super popular and he was a dirty cheeser. He might be the dirtiest cheeser of all time since he had one and it was so OP that people would know it was coming and still lose to it.
Mass reaper disgusted everyone when we slowly realised that it wasn't just insane micro from one player but that could be abused by a couple more terrans, and it get nerfed hard
On October 22 2017 03:23 Mun_Su wrote: People can't get over the fact that herO's playstile is one of the least likeable ever so they bring up the race argument. Well that doesn't work. (even I, who like a lot less protoss than Zerg and Terran, can like protoss like Classic, Rain, Feast, or Dear)
Also Zest is the ghost of his former self
His style may not be likable to you but don't assume everyone else thinks the same way. Also, herO simply uses all the tools in Protoss box to win. That makes him smart and resourceful. No need to play straight-up textbook like Stats. I find it is boring and uninspiring. If you think it is broken, by all mean, balance whine to Blizzard.
In the end of the day, he wins with his strong will and skills regardless his playstyle.
Of course herO has the right to choose his own style. And the fans have the right to hate him for it (if they so choose).
I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree?
herO's playstyle is hardly broken, seeing as he has been far less successful than Stats in 2017. Rather, herO's playstyle is simply disgusting to watch. I can respect his wins, but I can't respect his play.
The Great Book of Protoss Bullshit was named as such because it is full of bullshit, not gourmet cheese and fine wine.
I don't like cheese as much as the next person but it is the legit way to play. So be it. I would call herO as an "aggressor" than a cheeser. That title should belong to sOs or Has instead. Frankly, any race has its own Disgusting Book of BS. What else is new? There is no such thing is gourmet cheese or fine wine when it comes to cheese. I hope you not try to elevate sOs or Has' BS as some sort of "gourmet cheese".
On October 22 2017 03:23 Mun_Su wrote: People can't get over the fact that herO's playstile is one of the least likeable ever so they bring up the race argument. Well that doesn't work. (even I, who like a lot less protoss than Zerg and Terran, can like protoss like Classic, Rain, Feast, or Dear)
Also Zest is the ghost of his former self
His style may not be likable to you but don't assume everyone else thinks the same way. Also, herO simply uses all the tools in Protoss box to win. That makes him smart and resourceful. No need to play straight-up textbook like Stats. I find it is boring and uninspiring. If you think it is broken, by all mean, balance whine to Blizzard.
In the end of the day, he wins with his strong will and skills regardless his playstyle.
Of course herO has the right to choose his own style. And the fans have the right to hate him for it (if they so choose).
I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree?
herO's playstyle is hardly broken, seeing as he has been far less successful than Stats in 2017. Rather, herO's playstyle is simply disgusting to watch. I can respect his wins, but I can't respect his play.
The Great Book of Protoss Bullshit was named as such because it is full of bullshit, not gourmet cheese and fine wine.
I don't like cheese as much as the next person but it is the legit way to play. So be it. I would call herO as an "aggressor" than a cheeser. That title should belong to sOs or Has instead. Frankly, any race has its own Disgusting Book of BS. What else is new? There is no such thing is gourmet cheese or fine wine when it comes to cheese. I hope you not try to elevate sOs or Has' BS as some sort of "gourmet cheese".
While I am definitely not a fan of Has or sOs, I do prefer their playstyle over herO's. Though they are undeniably cheesy players, both sOs and Has have an endearing ingenuity about them, a creative flair that allows them to pioneer new builds/strategies that no other player has even dreamed of attempting. Double proxy robo, for instance, or the original mass Oracle.
I may not be a fan, but at the same time I have to give sOs/Has my grudging respect because they can play a crazy awesome playstyle that somehow manages to produce victory at the end of the day. Their abusive bullshit is overshadowed by their sheer élan. They have style.
Not so with herO. I've never seen him show any hint of that unique mad brilliance that sets sOs/Has apart, and without that élan, herO is just a dirty cheeser abusing the worst aspects of his race in my eyes.
On October 22 2017 03:47 pvsnp wrote:I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree?
ByuN is or was super popular and he was a dirty cheeser. He might be the dirtiest cheeser of all time since he had one and it was so OP that people would know it was coming and still lose to it.
ByuN is super popular because of his endearing personality and fairytale story. It's very hard to hate a hardworking underdog with a cute puppy who wears his heart on his sleeve and rises to the pinnacle of Starcraft after years of exile in disgrace.
His fanboys defended his admittedly abusive 3rax-ing because he is super popular, not the other way around. ByuN was popular despite his playstyle, not because of it.
On October 22 2017 03:23 Mun_Su wrote: People can't get over the fact that herO's playstile is one of the least likeable ever so they bring up the race argument. Well that doesn't work. (even I, who like a lot less protoss than Zerg and Terran, can like protoss like Classic, Rain, Feast, or Dear)
Also Zest is the ghost of his former self
His style may not be likable to you but don't assume everyone else thinks the same way. Also, herO simply uses all the tools in Protoss box to win. That makes him smart and resourceful. No need to play straight-up textbook like Stats. I find it is boring and uninspiring. If you think it is broken, by all mean, balance whine to Blizzard.
In the end of the day, he wins with his strong will and skills regardless his playstyle.
Of course herO has the right to choose his own style. And the fans have the right to hate him for it (if they so choose).
I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree?
herO's playstyle is hardly broken, seeing as he has been far less successful than Stats in 2017. Rather, herO's playstyle is simply disgusting to watch. I can respect his wins, but I can't respect his play.
The Great Book of Protoss Bullshit was named as such because it is full of bullshit, not gourmet cheese and fine wine.
I don't like cheese as much as the next person but it is the legit way to play. So be it. I would call herO as an "aggressor" than a cheeser. That title should belong to sOs or Has instead. Frankly, any race has its own Disgusting Book of BS. What else is new? There is no such thing is gourmet cheese or fine wine when it comes to cheese. I hope you not try to elevate sOs or Has' BS as some sort of "gourmet cheese".
While I am definitely not a fan of Has or sOs, I do prefer their playstyle over herO's. Though they are undeniably cheesy players, both sOs and Has have an endearing ingenuity about them, a creative flair that allows them to pioneer new builds/strategies that no other player has even dreamed of attempting. Double proxy robo, for instance, or the original mass Oracle.
I may not be a fan, but at the same time I have to give sOs/Has my grudging respect because they can play a crazy awesome playstyle that somehow manages to produce victory at the end of the day. Their abusive bullshit is overshadowed by their sheer élan. They have style.
Not so with herO. I've never seen him show any hint of that unique mad brilliance that sets sOs/Has apart, and without that élan, herO is just a dirty cheeser abusing the worst aspects of his race in my eyes.
On October 22 2017 03:47 pvsnp wrote:I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree?
ByuN is or was super popular and he was a dirty cheeser. He might be the dirtiest cheeser of all time since he had one and it was so OP that people would know it was coming and still lose to it.
ByuN is super popular because of his endearing personality and fairytale story. It's very hard to hate a hardworking underdog with a cute puppy who wears his heart on his sleeve and rises to the pinnacle of Starcraft after years of exile in disgrace.
His fanboys defended his admittedly abusive 3rax-ing because he is super popular, not the other way around. ByuN was popular despite his playstyle, not because of it.
Byun barely used reapers for his GSL win, in fact i'm not sure if he used 3 rax reaper at all.
Dirty cheeser.... I'm sorry is the goal of this game to win or not?
The smellier the cheese the better. All races, all levels of play. Cheese is all or nothing. High risk, high reward. Watching those succeed or fail is great.
(And yes, I do actually love high tier long macro games as well, but I'd rather watch both over Hydra Bane Busts, Adept Phoenix all-ins, or 1-1-1 Timings)
On October 22 2017 03:23 Mun_Su wrote: People can't get over the fact that herO's playstile is one of the least likeable ever so they bring up the race argument. Well that doesn't work. (even I, who like a lot less protoss than Zerg and Terran, can like protoss like Classic, Rain, Feast, or Dear)
Also Zest is the ghost of his former self
His style may not be likable to you but don't assume everyone else thinks the same way. Also, herO simply uses all the tools in Protoss box to win. That makes him smart and resourceful. No need to play straight-up textbook like Stats. I find it is boring and uninspiring. If you think it is broken, by all mean, balance whine to Blizzard.
In the end of the day, he wins with his strong will and skills regardless his playstyle.
Of course herO has the right to choose his own style. And the fans have the right to hate him for it (if they so choose).
I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree?
herO's playstyle is hardly broken, seeing as he has been far less successful than Stats in 2017. Rather, herO's playstyle is simply disgusting to watch. I can respect his wins, but I can't respect his play.
The Great Book of Protoss Bullshit was named as such because it is full of bullshit, not gourmet cheese and fine wine.
I don't like cheese as much as the next person but it is the legit way to play. So be it. I would call herO as an "aggressor" than a cheeser. That title should belong to sOs or Has instead. Frankly, any race has its own Disgusting Book of BS. What else is new? There is no such thing is gourmet cheese or fine wine when it comes to cheese. I hope you not try to elevate sOs or Has' BS as some sort of "gourmet cheese".
sOs going proxy 2 gate against herO in consecutive games might be the single greatest instance of strategic play in SC2 history. That was absolutely "gourmet cheese".
On October 22 2017 05:59 curufinwe_wins wrote: Dirty cheeser.... I'm sorry is the goal of this game to win or not?
The smellier the cheese the better. All races, all levels of play. Cheese is all or nothing. High risk, high reward. Watching those succeed or fail is great.
(And yes, I do actually love high tier long macro games as well, but I'd rather watch both over Hydra Bane Busts, Adept Phoenix all-ins, or 1-1-1 Timings)
and are you, are we playing when we watch them ? We didn't put down his achievements. As viewers, we may have preference, and herO is the player I dislike the most, that's all; when he play I often turn the stream off, because I don't find any enjoyment at seeing him play, so what's the point of watching esport if you don't enjoy yourself ? That's all.
herO's execution isn't exactly jaw-dropping, it's good but don't think it's something to hype up. People say his micro is amazing but I'm yet to see examples of him doing what other protosses can't. Playing a more micro heavy style (lots of agression with stalkers, warp prisms etc) than other protosses doesn't make him automatically the best either. His lategame army control and awareness certainly isn't.
I've always liked this little display of micro from hero
On October 22 2017 05:59 curufinwe_wins wrote: Dirty cheeser.... I'm sorry is the goal of this game to win or not?
The smellier the cheese the better. All races, all levels of play. Cheese is all or nothing. High risk, high reward. Watching those succeed or fail is great.
(And yes, I do actually love high tier long macro games as well, but I'd rather watch both over Hydra Bane Busts, Adept Phoenix all-ins, or 1-1-1 Timings)
and are you, are we playing when we watch them ? We didn't put down his achievements. As viewers, we may have preference, and herO is the player I dislike the most, that's all; when he play I often turn the stream off, because I don't find any enjoyment at seeing him play, so what's the point of watching esport if you don't enjoy yourself ? That's all.
Hmm? Anyways, I was merely saying I love watching cheese. I love watching meta defying builds and games. It is way more interesting than a stupid 1-1-1 timing we have seen literally 1000 times or PvZ hydra bane busts.
Say what you want about herO, but his execution has always been so top notch. I never considered him a particularly amazing reactionary player, but he would just execute builds with such precision and great killer instinct.
But ST2 changed my perspective of herO after watching him for years. Many of his wins particularly in PvP were not "choose abusive build and execute" at all. I thought his decision making in a bunch of those games were incredible. He showed flexibility, he showed really calculated risks that really paid off, and he showed a scary amount of diversity in his play. I have a new found respect for herO's reactionary play, he's basically become sOs with much better mechanics, unpredictable and thriving in weird situations. Before, if herO had a build that was working a lot in the meta, he would literally just do it every game. Nowadays, no-one knows what herO is going to do, even if you scout him.
herO's execution isn't exactly jaw-dropping, it's good but don't think it's something to hype up. People say his micro is amazing but I'm yet to see examples of him doing what other protosses can't. Playing a more micro heavy style (lots of agression with stalkers, warp prisms etc) than other protosses doesn't make him automatically the best either. His lategame army control and awareness certainly isn't.
I've always liked this little display of micro from hero
Yh it's cute micro and all, but it's not impressive to the point of calling him the best protoss micro-er. Most of the top protoss have been using warp prisms like that since the range was added. Not as much as herO though, warp prism micro seems to go along well with his playstyle this one was quite funny, using it to prevent viking shots from hitting
edit: it's his larger army control and positioning that I say isn't the best btw, his stalker/warp prism micro is always sharp
So much hate on him, i did not expect that. Always looked at him as an superb and legitimate PvZ player, a good PvPer, but his PvT is always strange if not simply random BS. (he treats terran like zerg )
At his peaks he is mostly best-PvZ-in-da-world, and he humiliate zergs so much with his top notch micro skill, lack of respect and drone-killing-passion i kinda understand he get some hate, but that much seems incredible.
Stats does not get that hate whereas his PvZ is kinda similar to herO...
On October 22 2017 03:23 Mun_Su wrote: People can't get over the fact that herO's playstile is one of the least likeable ever so they bring up the race argument. Well that doesn't work. (even I, who like a lot less protoss than Zerg and Terran, can like protoss like Classic, Rain, Feast, or Dear)
Also Zest is the ghost of his former self
His style may not be likable to you but don't assume everyone else thinks the same way. Also, herO simply uses all the tools in Protoss box to win. That makes him smart and resourceful. No need to play straight-up textbook like Stats. I find it is boring and uninspiring. If you think it is broken, by all mean, balance whine to Blizzard.
In the end of the day, he wins with his strong will and skills regardless his playstyle.
Of course herO has the right to choose his own style. And the fans have the right to hate him for it (if they so choose).
I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree?
herO's playstyle is hardly broken, seeing as he has been far less successful than Stats in 2017. Rather, herO's playstyle is simply disgusting to watch. I can respect his wins, but I can't respect his play.
The Great Book of Protoss Bullshit was named as such because it is full of bullshit, not gourmet cheese and fine wine.
I don't like cheese as much as the next person but it is the legit way to play. So be it. I would call herO as an "aggressor" than a cheeser. That title should belong to sOs or Has instead. Frankly, any race has its own Disgusting Book of BS. What else is new? There is no such thing is gourmet cheese or fine wine when it comes to cheese. I hope you not try to elevate sOs or Has' BS as some sort of "gourmet cheese".
While I am definitely not a fan of Has or sOs, I do prefer their playstyle over herO's. Though they are undeniably cheesy players, both sOs and Has have an endearing ingenuity about them, a creative flair that allows them to pioneer new builds/strategies that no other player has even dreamed of attempting. Double proxy robo, for instance, or the original mass Oracle.
I may not be a fan, but at the same time I have to give sOs/Has my grudging respect because they can play a crazy awesome playstyle that somehow manages to produce victory at the end of the day. Their abusive bullshit is overshadowed by their sheer élan. They have style.
Not so with herO. I've never seen him show any hint of that unique mad brilliance that sets sOs/Has apart, and without that élan, herO is just a dirty cheeser abusing the worst aspects of his race in my eyes.
On October 22 2017 04:37 Boggyb wrote:
On October 22 2017 03:47 pvsnp wrote:I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree?
ByuN is or was super popular and he was a dirty cheeser. He might be the dirtiest cheeser of all time since he had one and it was so OP that people would know it was coming and still lose to it.
ByuN is super popular because of his endearing personality and fairytale story. It's very hard to hate a hardworking underdog with a cute puppy who wears his heart on his sleeve and rises to the pinnacle of Starcraft after years of exile in disgrace.
His fanboys defended his admittedly abusive 3rax-ing because he is super popular, not the other way around. ByuN was popular despite his playstyle, not because of it.
Byun barely used reapers for his GSL win, in fact i'm not sure if he used 3 rax reaper at all.
He 3-raxed reapered Losira. And the reason why he didn't 3-rax reaper more was because zergs were basically extinct that GSL.
On October 22 2017 03:23 Mun_Su wrote: People can't get over the fact that herO's playstile is one of the least likeable ever so they bring up the race argument. Well that doesn't work. (even I, who like a lot less protoss than Zerg and Terran, can like protoss like Classic, Rain, Feast, or Dear)
Also Zest is the ghost of his former self
His style may not be likable to you but don't assume everyone else thinks the same way. Also, herO simply uses all the tools in Protoss box to win. That makes him smart and resourceful. No need to play straight-up textbook like Stats. I find it is boring and uninspiring. If you think it is broken, by all mean, balance whine to Blizzard.
In the end of the day, he wins with his strong will and skills regardless his playstyle.
Of course herO has the right to choose his own style. And the fans have the right to hate him for it (if they so choose).
I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree?
herO's playstyle is hardly broken, seeing as he has been far less successful than Stats in 2017. Rather, herO's playstyle is simply disgusting to watch. I can respect his wins, but I can't respect his play.
The Great Book of Protoss Bullshit was named as such because it is full of bullshit, not gourmet cheese and fine wine.
I don't like cheese as much as the next person but it is the legit way to play. So be it. I would call herO as an "aggressor" than a cheeser. That title should belong to sOs or Has instead. Frankly, any race has its own Disgusting Book of BS. What else is new? There is no such thing is gourmet cheese or fine wine when it comes to cheese. I hope you not try to elevate sOs or Has' BS as some sort of "gourmet cheese".
While I am definitely not a fan of Has or sOs, I do prefer their playstyle over herO's. Though they are undeniably cheesy players, both sOs and Has have an endearing ingenuity about them, a creative flair that allows them to pioneer new builds/strategies that no other player has even dreamed of attempting. Double proxy robo, for instance, or the original mass Oracle.
I may not be a fan, but at the same time I have to give sOs/Has my grudging respect because they can play a crazy awesome playstyle that somehow manages to produce victory at the end of the day. Their abusive bullshit is overshadowed by their sheer élan. They have style.
Not so with herO. I've never seen him show any hint of that unique mad brilliance that sets sOs/Has apart, and without that élan, herO is just a dirty cheeser abusing the worst aspects of his race in my eyes.
On October 22 2017 04:37 Boggyb wrote:
On October 22 2017 03:47 pvsnp wrote:I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree?
ByuN is or was super popular and he was a dirty cheeser. He might be the dirtiest cheeser of all time since he had one and it was so OP that people would know it was coming and still lose to it.
ByuN is super popular because of his endearing personality and fairytale story. It's very hard to hate a hardworking underdog with a cute puppy who wears his heart on his sleeve and rises to the pinnacle of Starcraft after years of exile in disgrace.
His fanboys defended his admittedly abusive 3rax-ing because he is super popular, not the other way around. ByuN was popular despite his playstyle, not because of it.
Byun barely used reapers for his GSL win, in fact i'm not sure if he used 3 rax reaper at all.
He 3-raxed reapered Losira. And the reason why he didn't 3-rax reaper more was because zergs were basically extinct that GSL.
Point being that ByuN can and does play macro games, as well as 3rax reaper, or whatever else, but his popularity isn't a product of his playstyle. People like ByuN because he's ByuN. His fans defend his playstyle (all aspects of it) because they like his personality, not because they love the playstyle.
herO on the other hand is judged by his playstyle, and I find that many people don't care for his brand of Protoss bullshit.
Their respective popularity has nothing to do with the races they play, as some moron claimed earlier. It has everything to do with the fact that ByuN and herO are two different people. Popularity is of course and strange and fickle thing, but I think it's safe to say that being a cheesy player, in and of itself, does not win any popularity points.
On October 22 2017 03:23 Mun_Su wrote: People can't get over the fact that herO's playstile is one of the least likeable ever so they bring up the race argument. Well that doesn't work. (even I, who like a lot less protoss than Zerg and Terran, can like protoss like Classic, Rain, Feast, or Dear)
Also Zest is the ghost of his former self
His style may not be likable to you but don't assume everyone else thinks the same way. Also, herO simply uses all the tools in Protoss box to win. That makes him smart and resourceful. No need to play straight-up textbook like Stats. I find it is boring and uninspiring. If you think it is broken, by all mean, balance whine to Blizzard.
In the end of the day, he wins with his strong will and skills regardless his playstyle.
Of course herO has the right to choose his own style. And the fans have the right to hate him for it (if they so choose).
I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree?
herO's playstyle is hardly broken, seeing as he has been far less successful than Stats in 2017. Rather, herO's playstyle is simply disgusting to watch. I can respect his wins, but I can't respect his play.
The Great Book of Protoss Bullshit was named as such because it is full of bullshit, not gourmet cheese and fine wine.
I don't like cheese as much as the next person but it is the legit way to play. So be it. I would call herO as an "aggressor" than a cheeser. That title should belong to sOs or Has instead. Frankly, any race has its own Disgusting Book of BS. What else is new? There is no such thing is gourmet cheese or fine wine when it comes to cheese. I hope you not try to elevate sOs or Has' BS as some sort of "gourmet cheese".
While I am definitely not a fan of Has or sOs, I do prefer their playstyle over herO's. Though they are undeniably cheesy players, both sOs and Has have an endearing ingenuity about them, a creative flair that allows them to pioneer new builds/strategies that no other player has even dreamed of attempting. Double proxy robo, for instance, or the original mass Oracle.
I may not be a fan, but at the same time I have to give sOs/Has my grudging respect because they can play a crazy awesome playstyle that somehow manages to produce victory at the end of the day. Their abusive bullshit is overshadowed by their sheer élan. They have style.
Not so with herO. I've never seen him show any hint of that unique mad brilliance that sets sOs/Has apart, and without that élan, herO is just a dirty cheeser abusing the worst aspects of his race in my eyes.
On October 22 2017 04:37 Boggyb wrote:
On October 22 2017 03:47 pvsnp wrote:I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree?
ByuN is or was super popular and he was a dirty cheeser. He might be the dirtiest cheeser of all time since he had one and it was so OP that people would know it was coming and still lose to it.
ByuN is super popular because of his endearing personality and fairytale story. It's very hard to hate a hardworking underdog with a cute puppy who wears his heart on his sleeve and rises to the pinnacle of Starcraft after years of exile in disgrace.
His fanboys defended his admittedly abusive 3rax-ing because he is super popular, not the other way around. ByuN was popular despite his playstyle, not because of it.
Byun barely used reapers for his GSL win, in fact i'm not sure if he used 3 rax reaper at all.
He 3-raxed reapered Losira. And the reason why he didn't 3-rax reaper more was because zergs were basically extinct that GSL.
Oh yes, the great LosEra, i'm sure he would have rolled Byun if not for imba 3rax reaper.
On October 22 2017 03:23 Mun_Su wrote: People can't get over the fact that herO's playstile is one of the least likeable ever so they bring up the race argument. Well that doesn't work. (even I, who like a lot less protoss than Zerg and Terran, can like protoss like Classic, Rain, Feast, or Dear)
Also Zest is the ghost of his former self
His style may not be likable to you but don't assume everyone else thinks the same way. Also, herO simply uses all the tools in Protoss box to win. That makes him smart and resourceful. No need to play straight-up textbook like Stats. I find it is boring and uninspiring. If you think it is broken, by all mean, balance whine to Blizzard.
In the end of the day, he wins with his strong will and skills regardless his playstyle.
Of course herO has the right to choose his own style. And the fans have the right to hate him for it (if they so choose).
I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree?
herO's playstyle is hardly broken, seeing as he has been far less successful than Stats in 2017. Rather, herO's playstyle is simply disgusting to watch. I can respect his wins, but I can't respect his play.
The Great Book of Protoss Bullshit was named as such because it is full of bullshit, not gourmet cheese and fine wine.
I don't like cheese as much as the next person but it is the legit way to play. So be it. I would call herO as an "aggressor" than a cheeser. That title should belong to sOs or Has instead. Frankly, any race has its own Disgusting Book of BS. What else is new? There is no such thing is gourmet cheese or fine wine when it comes to cheese. I hope you not try to elevate sOs or Has' BS as some sort of "gourmet cheese".
While I am definitely not a fan of Has or sOs, I do prefer their playstyle over herO's. Though they are undeniably cheesy players, both sOs and Has have an endearing ingenuity about them, a creative flair that allows them to pioneer new builds/strategies that no other player has even dreamed of attempting. Double proxy robo, for instance, or the original mass Oracle.
I may not be a fan, but at the same time I have to give sOs/Has my grudging respect because they can play a crazy awesome playstyle that somehow manages to produce victory at the end of the day. Their abusive bullshit is overshadowed by their sheer élan. They have style.
Not so with herO. I've never seen him show any hint of that unique mad brilliance that sets sOs/Has apart, and without that élan, herO is just a dirty cheeser abusing the worst aspects of his race in my eyes.
On October 22 2017 04:37 Boggyb wrote:
On October 22 2017 03:47 pvsnp wrote:I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that dirty cheesers are less popular and/or less respected than clean macro players. I mean, just look at the way they are named "dirty" and "clean." Do you disagree?
ByuN is or was super popular and he was a dirty cheeser. He might be the dirtiest cheeser of all time since he had one and it was so OP that people would know it was coming and still lose to it.
ByuN is super popular because of his endearing personality and fairytale story. It's very hard to hate a hardworking underdog with a cute puppy who wears his heart on his sleeve and rises to the pinnacle of Starcraft after years of exile in disgrace.
His fanboys defended his admittedly abusive 3rax-ing because he is super popular, not the other way around. ByuN was popular despite his playstyle, not because of it.
Byun barely used reapers for his GSL win, in fact i'm not sure if he used 3 rax reaper at all.
He 3-raxed reapered Losira. And the reason why he didn't 3-rax reaper more was because zergs were basically extinct that GSL.
Oh yes, the great LosEra, i'm sure he would have rolled Byun if not for imba 3rax reaper.
Losira actually beat ByuN 2-0 in the first match in what were standard games. Byun won the rematch 2-0 with 3RR in one and a failed baneling bust in the other
On October 22 2017 04:23 Fango wrote: I will say that I don't dislike herO purely for his playstyle. Nothing's inherently wrong with being cheesy. I just think he tends to rely on balance issues to win, and isn't on the same level as other protosses when it comes to the wide skillbook of sc2.
And I will stand by my point that he only wins when protoss is OP until proven otherwise. ST1 was a joke in terms of balance.
(also I don't blindly hate him and dismiss his wins like people are saying. When he has legit good performances I credit him for it, ST2 was an example of that)
How was ST1 a joke in terms of balance? Are you referring to the map pool? If the TL wiki is accurate, the most recent balance change after ST1 was in May, and it minorly buffed Terran, nerfed Zerg slightly, and buffed Protoss. There were few prior balance changes before ST1 except for the one in November 2016.
On October 22 2017 04:23 Fango wrote: I will say that I don't dislike herO purely for his playstyle. Nothing's inherently wrong with being cheesy. I just think he tends to rely on balance issues to win, and isn't on the same level as other protosses when it comes to the wide skillbook of sc2.
And I will stand by my point that he only wins when protoss is OP until proven otherwise. ST1 was a joke in terms of balance.
(also I don't blindly hate him and dismiss his wins like people are saying. When he has legit good performances I credit him for it, ST2 was an example of that)
How was ST1 a joke in terms of balance? Are you referring to the map pool? If the TL wiki is accurate, the most recent balance change after ST1 was in May, and it minorly buffed Terran, nerfed Zerg slightly, and buffed Protoss. There were few prior balance changes before ST1 except for the one in November 2016.
On October 22 2017 04:23 Fango wrote: I will say that I don't dislike herO purely for his playstyle. Nothing's inherently wrong with being cheesy. I just think he tends to rely on balance issues to win, and isn't on the same level as other protosses when it comes to the wide skillbook of sc2.
And I will stand by my point that he only wins when protoss is OP until proven otherwise. ST1 was a joke in terms of balance.
(also I don't blindly hate him and dismiss his wins like people are saying. When he has legit good performances I credit him for it, ST2 was an example of that)
How was ST1 a joke in terms of balance? Are you referring to the map pool? If the TL wiki is accurate, the most recent balance change after ST1 was in May, and it minorly buffed Terran, nerfed Zerg slightly, and buffed Protoss. There were few prior balance changes before ST1 except for the one in November 2016.
Adept/Phoenix
Were they changed? Or did the map pool make that much of a difference?
On October 22 2017 04:23 Fango wrote: I will say that I don't dislike herO purely for his playstyle. Nothing's inherently wrong with being cheesy. I just think he tends to rely on balance issues to win, and isn't on the same level as other protosses when it comes to the wide skillbook of sc2.
And I will stand by my point that he only wins when protoss is OP until proven otherwise. ST1 was a joke in terms of balance.
(also I don't blindly hate him and dismiss his wins like people are saying. When he has legit good performances I credit him for it, ST2 was an example of that)
How was ST1 a joke in terms of balance? Are you referring to the map pool? If the TL wiki is accurate, the most recent balance change after ST1 was in May, and it minorly buffed Terran, nerfed Zerg slightly, and buffed Protoss. There were few prior balance changes before ST1 except for the one in November 2016.
Adept/Phoenix
Were they changed? Or did the map pool make that much of a difference?
I'm surprised you don't remember. The first Super Tournament was really the height of Adept/Phoenix abuse, seeing as Terran had both Liberators and Mines nerfed shorty before. PvT was basically guaranteed to be Adept/Phoenix every single game.
Both Terrans and Zergs were setting the forums ablaze because Protoss was literally winning off the back of only Adepts. herO in particular was abusing them to an absolutely disgusting degree, he won the first Super Tournament on April 9th, and Adepts received a -10 hp nerf on April 19th: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20720843.
That time was probably the worst the forums have been in all 2017, come to think of it, seeing as Adepts were equally hated by Terran and Zerg alike. They had the unfortunate bonus of being horrendous to watch as well: just a bunch of shades over the enemy army, everything blows up and Protoss wins (PvT), or shades playing ping-pong between hatches while lings and roaches raced back and forth amidst dead drones (PvZ).
The unpleasant combination of OP + unwatchable brought the nerf hammer crashing down soon enough, but not before herO walked away with a ST trophy.
On October 22 2017 04:23 Fango wrote: I will say that I don't dislike herO purely for his playstyle. Nothing's inherently wrong with being cheesy. I just think he tends to rely on balance issues to win, and isn't on the same level as other protosses when it comes to the wide skillbook of sc2.
And I will stand by my point that he only wins when protoss is OP until proven otherwise. ST1 was a joke in terms of balance.
(also I don't blindly hate him and dismiss his wins like people are saying. When he has legit good performances I credit him for it, ST2 was an example of that)
How was ST1 a joke in terms of balance? Are you referring to the map pool? If the TL wiki is accurate, the most recent balance change after ST1 was in May, and it minorly buffed Terran, nerfed Zerg slightly, and buffed Protoss. There were few prior balance changes before ST1 except for the one in November 2016.
Adept/Phoenix
Were they changed? Or did the map pool make that much of a difference?
I'm surprised you don't remember. The first Super Tournament was really the height of Adept/Phoenix abuse, seeing as Terran had both Liberators and Mines nerfed shorty before. PvT was basically guaranteed to be Adept/Phoenix every single game.
Both Terrans and Zergs were setting the forums ablaze because Protoss was literally winning off the back of only Adepts. herO in particular was abusing them to an absolutely disgusting degree, he won the first Super Tournament on April 9th, and Adepts received a -10 hp nerf on April 19th: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20720843.
That time was probably the worst the forums have been in all 2017, come to think of it, seeing as Adepts were equally hated by Terran and Zerg alike. They had the unfortunate bonus of being horrendous to watch as well: just a bunch of shades over the enemy army, everything blows up and Protoss wins (PvT), or shades playing ping-pong between hatches while lings and roaches raced back and forth amidst dead drones (PvZ).
The unpleasant combination of OP + unwatchable brought the nerf hammer crashing down soon enough, but not before herO walked away with a ST trophy.
For what it's worth I don't think they would have stayed OP even without the nerf. Balance-wise zerg wasn't too badly off despite the deplorable gameplay, and terrans were (slowly) getting better at handling phoenix/adept towards the end.
The nerf was undoubtedly warranted though, both due to how awful the gameplay was and due to the fact that we'd probably have had to watch a few more months of terrans getting beaten into the ground before we knew for sure whether balance would restore itself or not.
On October 22 2017 04:23 Fango wrote: I will say that I don't dislike herO purely for his playstyle. Nothing's inherently wrong with being cheesy. I just think he tends to rely on balance issues to win, and isn't on the same level as other protosses when it comes to the wide skillbook of sc2.
And I will stand by my point that he only wins when protoss is OP until proven otherwise. ST1 was a joke in terms of balance.
(also I don't blindly hate him and dismiss his wins like people are saying. When he has legit good performances I credit him for it, ST2 was an example of that)
How was ST1 a joke in terms of balance? Are you referring to the map pool? If the TL wiki is accurate, the most recent balance change after ST1 was in May, and it minorly buffed Terran, nerfed Zerg slightly, and buffed Protoss. There were few prior balance changes before ST1 except for the one in November 2016.
Adept/Phoenix
Were they changed? Or did the map pool make that much of a difference?
I'm surprised you don't remember. The first Super Tournament was really the height of Adept/Phoenix abuse, seeing as Terran had both Liberators and Mines nerfed shorty before. PvT was basically guaranteed to be Adept/Phoenix every single game.
Both Terrans and Zergs were setting the forums ablaze because Protoss was literally winning off the back of only Adepts. herO in particular was abusing them to an absolutely disgusting degree, he won the first Super Tournament on April 9th, and Adepts received a -10 hp nerf on April 19th: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20720843.
That time was probably the worst the forums have been in all 2017, come to think of it, seeing as Adepts were equally hated by Terran and Zerg alike. They had the unfortunate bonus of being horrendous to watch as well: just a bunch of shades over the enemy army, everything blows up and Protoss wins (PvT), or shades playing ping-pong between hatches while lings and roaches raced back and forth amidst dead drones (PvZ).
The unpleasant combination of OP + unwatchable brought the nerf hammer crashing down soon enough, but not before herO walked away with a ST trophy.
Right, I forgot about that. I think I just tune out a lot of forum whine since it seems to happen all the time. I mean, just prior, all the Protoss were whining that Terran was op in January.
EDIT: I breezed through the herO vs Terran games, and briefly: herO vs TY G1 - Warp prism stalker/adept allin G2 - 1 Oracle G3 - Phoenix/adept into mass stalkers against BCs
herO vs GuMiho G1 - Stalker/adept allin G2 - Phoenix/adept G3 - Phoenix/adept loss G4 - Stalker/colossi/disruptor loss G5 - Macro game, stalker/colossi/disruptor/adepts/tempests/voidrays
herO vs aLive G1 - Failed DT rush into mass adept loss G2 - Phoenix/adept win G3 - Phoenix/adept win G4 - Phoenix adept loss G5 - Phoenix adept into stalker/colossi G6 - Stalker/warp prism all in
So, indeed, phoenix/adept featured heavily in 7/14 games played; however, the composition itself only won in 3/14 games.
So yes, both phoenix adept and mass adept were seen heavily in the ST, but it's honestly a question of if herO won because of phoenix/adept being overpowered. In a number of these situations, players were able to deal with phoenix/adept decently well (even with the mentioned nerfed liberators and mines), and it was aLive being unable to deal with phoenix adept as opposed to TY, who defended and transitioned into battlecruisers, or GuMiho, who defended and won against phoenix/adept.
Also, I do have to question the idea of not enjoying a tournament or discrediting a player's win because of a certain strategy. Do we discount much of Stephano's success for being during infestor/broodlord and using that comp himself? Do we discredit Innovation's play during the 2016 IEM because Protoss was so underpowered during that time?
On October 22 2017 04:23 Fango wrote: I will say that I don't dislike herO purely for his playstyle. Nothing's inherently wrong with being cheesy. I just think he tends to rely on balance issues to win, and isn't on the same level as other protosses when it comes to the wide skillbook of sc2.
And I will stand by my point that he only wins when protoss is OP until proven otherwise. ST1 was a joke in terms of balance.
(also I don't blindly hate him and dismiss his wins like people are saying. When he has legit good performances I credit him for it, ST2 was an example of that)
How was ST1 a joke in terms of balance? Are you referring to the map pool? If the TL wiki is accurate, the most recent balance change after ST1 was in May, and it minorly buffed Terran, nerfed Zerg slightly, and buffed Protoss. There were few prior balance changes before ST1 except for the one in November 2016.
Adept/Phoenix
Were they changed? Or did the map pool make that much of a difference?
I'm surprised you don't remember. The first Super Tournament was really the height of Adept/Phoenix abuse, seeing as Terran had both Liberators and Mines nerfed shorty before. PvT was basically guaranteed to be Adept/Phoenix every single game.
Both Terrans and Zergs were setting the forums ablaze because Protoss was literally winning off the back of only Adepts. herO in particular was abusing them to an absolutely disgusting degree, he won the first Super Tournament on April 9th, and Adepts received a -10 hp nerf on April 19th: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20720843.
That time was probably the worst the forums have been in all 2017, come to think of it, seeing as Adepts were equally hated by Terran and Zerg alike. They had the unfortunate bonus of being horrendous to watch as well: just a bunch of shades over the enemy army, everything blows up and Protoss wins (PvT), or shades playing ping-pong between hatches while lings and roaches raced back and forth amidst dead drones (PvZ).
The unpleasant combination of OP + unwatchable brought the nerf hammer crashing down soon enough, but not before herO walked away with a ST trophy.
Right, I forgot about that. I think I just tune out a lot of forum whine since it seems to happen all the time. I mean, just prior, all the Protoss were whining that Terran was op in January.
EDIT: I breezed through the herO vs Terran games, and briefly: herO vs TY G1 - Warp prism stalker/adept allin G2 - 1 Oracle G3 - Phoenix/adept into mass stalkers against BCs
herO vs GuMiho G1 - Stalker/adept allin G2 - Phoenix/adept G3 - Phoenix/adept loss G4 - Stalker/colossi/disruptor loss G5 - Macro game, stalker/colossi/disruptor/adepts/tempests/voidrays
herO vs aLive G1 - Failed DT rush into mass adept loss G2 - Phoenix/adept win G3 - Phoenix/adept win G4 - Phoenix adept loss G5 - Phoenix adept into stalker/colossi G6 - Stalker/warp prism all in
So, indeed, phoenix/adept featured heavily in 7/14 games played; however, the composition itself only won in 3/14 games.
So yes, both phoenix adept and mass adept were seen heavily in the ST, but it's honestly a question of if herO won because of phoenix/adept being overpowered. In a number of these situations, players were able to deal with phoenix/adept decently well (even with the mentioned nerfed liberators and mines), and it was aLive being unable to deal with phoenix adept as opposed to TY, who defended and transitioned into battlecruisers, or GuMiho, who defended and won against phoenix/adept.
Also, I do have to question the idea of not enjoying a tournament or discrediting a player's win because of a certain strategy. Do we discount much of Stephano's success for being during infestor/broodlord and using that comp himself? Do we discredit Innovation's play during the 2016 IEM because Protoss was so underpowered during that time?
I don't really discredit his wins, I also think that he is a strong contender for the title, and that he is with Rogue in the strongest form atm. I just don't enjoy at all watchin him so I hope he'll lose that's all.
Also Stephano constructed his legend without BL/infestor, when BL/infestor was all over starcraft Stephano wasn't that good because he was quite bad in ZvZ so more Zerg = less success for pano.
And why discredit INnoVation's play at IEM Gyeonggi, he beat the best zerg, Dark in semi finals (DArk was blizzcon finalist and beat Byun the blizzcon winner in ro8), he also beat Stats in final (Stats has beaten Maru in ro8) even if he crumbled against INno it is still a great performance.
On October 22 2017 04:23 Fango wrote: I will say that I don't dislike herO purely for his playstyle. Nothing's inherently wrong with being cheesy. I just think he tends to rely on balance issues to win, and isn't on the same level as other protosses when it comes to the wide skillbook of sc2.
And I will stand by my point that he only wins when protoss is OP until proven otherwise. ST1 was a joke in terms of balance.
(also I don't blindly hate him and dismiss his wins like people are saying. When he has legit good performances I credit him for it, ST2 was an example of that)
How was ST1 a joke in terms of balance? Are you referring to the map pool? If the TL wiki is accurate, the most recent balance change after ST1 was in May, and it minorly buffed Terran, nerfed Zerg slightly, and buffed Protoss. There were few prior balance changes before ST1 except for the one in November 2016.
Adept/Phoenix
Were they changed? Or did the map pool make that much of a difference?
I'm surprised you don't remember. The first Super Tournament was really the height of Adept/Phoenix abuse, seeing as Terran had both Liberators and Mines nerfed shorty before. PvT was basically guaranteed to be Adept/Phoenix every single game.
Both Terrans and Zergs were setting the forums ablaze because Protoss was literally winning off the back of only Adepts. herO in particular was abusing them to an absolutely disgusting degree, he won the first Super Tournament on April 9th, and Adepts received a -10 hp nerf on April 19th: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20720843.
That time was probably the worst the forums have been in all 2017, come to think of it, seeing as Adepts were equally hated by Terran and Zerg alike. They had the unfortunate bonus of being horrendous to watch as well: just a bunch of shades over the enemy army, everything blows up and Protoss wins (PvT), or shades playing ping-pong between hatches while lings and roaches raced back and forth amidst dead drones (PvZ).
The unpleasant combination of OP + unwatchable brought the nerf hammer crashing down soon enough, but not before herO walked away with a ST trophy.
Right, I forgot about that. I think I just tune out a lot of forum whine since it seems to happen all the time. I mean, just prior, all the Protoss were whining that Terran was op in January.
EDIT: I breezed through the herO vs Terran games, and briefly: herO vs TY G1 - Warp prism stalker/adept allin G2 - 1 Oracle G3 - Phoenix/adept into mass stalkers against BCs
herO vs GuMiho G1 - Stalker/adept allin G2 - Phoenix/adept G3 - Phoenix/adept loss G4 - Stalker/colossi/disruptor loss G5 - Macro game, stalker/colossi/disruptor/adepts/tempests/voidrays
herO vs aLive G1 - Failed DT rush into mass adept loss G2 - Phoenix/adept win G3 - Phoenix/adept win G4 - Phoenix adept loss G5 - Phoenix adept into stalker/colossi G6 - Stalker/warp prism all in
So, indeed, phoenix/adept featured heavily in 7/14 games played; however, the composition itself only won in 3/14 games.
So yes, both phoenix adept and mass adept were seen heavily in the ST, but it's honestly a question of if herO won because of phoenix/adept being overpowered. In a number of these situations, players were able to deal with phoenix/adept decently well (even with the mentioned nerfed liberators and mines), and it was aLive being unable to deal with phoenix adept as opposed to TY, who defended and transitioned into battlecruisers, or GuMiho, who defended and won against phoenix/adept.
Also, I do have to question the idea of not enjoying a tournament or discrediting a player's win because of a certain strategy. Do we discount much of Stephano's success for being during infestor/broodlord and using that comp himself? Do we discredit Innovation's play during the 2016 IEM because Protoss was so underpowered during that time?
I don't really discredit his wins, I also think that he is a strong contender for the title, and that he is with Rogue in the strongest form atm. I just don't enjoy at all watchin him so I hope he'll lose that's all.
Also Stephano constructed his legend without BL/infestor, when BL/infestor was all over starcraft Stephano wasn't that good because he was quite bad in ZvZ so more Zerg = less success for pano.
And why discredit INnoVation's play at IEM Gyeonggi, he beat the best zerg, Dark in semi finals (DArk was blizzcon finalist and beat Byun the blizzcon winner in ro8), he also beat Stats in final (Stats has beaten Maru in ro8) even if he crumbled against INno it is still a great performance.
On October 22 2017 04:23 Fango wrote: I will say that I don't dislike herO purely for his playstyle. Nothing's inherently wrong with being cheesy. I just think he tends to rely on balance issues to win, and isn't on the same level as other protosses when it comes to the wide skillbook of sc2.
And I will stand by my point that he only wins when protoss is OP until proven otherwise. ST1 was a joke in terms of balance.
(also I don't blindly hate him and dismiss his wins like people are saying. When he has legit good performances I credit him for it, ST2 was an example of that)
How was ST1 a joke in terms of balance? Are you referring to the map pool? If the TL wiki is accurate, the most recent balance change after ST1 was in May, and it minorly buffed Terran, nerfed Zerg slightly, and buffed Protoss. There were few prior balance changes before ST1 except for the one in November 2016.
Adept/Phoenix
Were they changed? Or did the map pool make that much of a difference?
I'm surprised you don't remember. The first Super Tournament was really the height of Adept/Phoenix abuse, seeing as Terran had both Liberators and Mines nerfed shorty before. PvT was basically guaranteed to be Adept/Phoenix every single game.
Both Terrans and Zergs were setting the forums ablaze because Protoss was literally winning off the back of only Adepts. herO in particular was abusing them to an absolutely disgusting degree, he won the first Super Tournament on April 9th, and Adepts received a -10 hp nerf on April 19th: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20720843.
That time was probably the worst the forums have been in all 2017, come to think of it, seeing as Adepts were equally hated by Terran and Zerg alike. They had the unfortunate bonus of being horrendous to watch as well: just a bunch of shades over the enemy army, everything blows up and Protoss wins (PvT), or shades playing ping-pong between hatches while lings and roaches raced back and forth amidst dead drones (PvZ).
The unpleasant combination of OP + unwatchable brought the nerf hammer crashing down soon enough, but not before herO walked away with a ST trophy.
Right, I forgot about that. I think I just tune out a lot of forum whine since it seems to happen all the time. I mean, just prior, all the Protoss were whining that Terran was op in January.
EDIT: I breezed through the herO vs Terran games, and briefly: herO vs TY G1 - Warp prism stalker/adept allin G2 - 1 Oracle G3 - Phoenix/adept into mass stalkers against BCs
herO vs GuMiho G1 - Stalker/adept allin G2 - Phoenix/adept G3 - Phoenix/adept loss G4 - Stalker/colossi/disruptor loss G5 - Macro game, stalker/colossi/disruptor/adepts/tempests/voidrays
herO vs aLive G1 - Failed DT rush into mass adept loss G2 - Phoenix/adept win G3 - Phoenix/adept win G4 - Phoenix adept loss G5 - Phoenix adept into stalker/colossi G6 - Stalker/warp prism all in
So, indeed, phoenix/adept featured heavily in 7/14 games played; however, the composition itself only won in 3/14 games.
So yes, both phoenix adept and mass adept were seen heavily in the ST, but it's honestly a question of if herO won because of phoenix/adept being overpowered. In a number of these situations, players were able to deal with phoenix/adept decently well (even with the mentioned nerfed liberators and mines), and it was aLive being unable to deal with phoenix adept as opposed to TY, who defended and transitioned into battlecruisers, or GuMiho, who defended and won against phoenix/adept.
Also, I do have to question the idea of not enjoying a tournament or discrediting a player's win because of a certain strategy. Do we discount much of Stephano's success for being during infestor/broodlord and using that comp himself? Do we discredit Innovation's play during the 2016 IEM because Protoss was so underpowered during that time?
In general the phoenix/adept seemed to be going out of fashion around the time of the ST1 since zerg and especially terran became better at dealing with it. The nerf was just the final nail in the coffin. However, if I remember correctly it was still such a big part of the meta that zerg and terran had to prepare to deal with it making protoss able to abuse it by going into other playstyles with the other player behind because they prepared for adept/phoenix. Even as a protoss I'm incredibly happy that adept/phoenix is mostly gone since it really boring to see it in every game. But I think it could have disappeared even without the nerf.
As a herO fan I am happy that he is doing well but I can see why people dislike him as he is really good at abusing strategies like he did with blinkstalkers in the incredibly blink friendly mappool of, what was it?, 2014/2015?
And I discount a bit of Stephanos success because of the infestor/broodlord comp. It was increadibly abusive for a while.