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On October 24 2017 10:47 Snarosc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2017 08:47 pvsnp wrote:On October 24 2017 08:03 Snarosc wrote: I can already see Innovation being #1 just for the sake of Innovation being Innovation. This terran fanboyism is becoming ridiculous at this point.
Just looking at Inno's last 10 matches : 5W - 5L
2 Loss against Stats 1 Loss against herO 1 Loss against aLive 1 Loss against TY
5 wins against :
Solar Trap Creator aLive Bunny.
Losing against the Top, winning against the mids.
WOW... The definition of peaking... GOAT. .............. 1. This Blizzcon PR, like every other PR, measures current form. Therefore, it completely disregards any results older than a few months. 2. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the most achievements across their career lifetime. Therefore, it completely disregards current form. 3. Every single one of the 10 matches you cited was played online, during the time immediately preceding Blizzcon. Online tourneys are an unreliable indicator of form in the best of times, and right before Blizzcon is about as far from that as could possibly be. Welding three different measures of three separate things into the most poorly-supported attack on the alleged bias of TL writers I have ever had the misfortune to read.........truly, I am impressed. It takes real work to craft an argument so utterly wrong in every aspect imaginable. Oh, and the accusation of "Terran fanboyism" took the cake. That level of hypocritical irony is usually reserved for Alex Jones and his ilk. Thank you. Mondays can always use a good long laugh. 1) Funny, what a familiar sound, again tickling my ears : "online results don't matter".... when it serves your point. Just one little problem on this one : we're just a few days before Blizzcon, 3 days actually, aaaand the last offline tournament was about a month ago (No no, ok ... I admit it.. ST2 was only 23 days ago). Best indicator to measure "current form" right ? We all know nothing changes in a month of SC2. But anyway, let's forget about online results for a second, as you wish : Stats won Starleague.. Literally a month ago, dominating the tournament from start to finish. When at the same time Innovation ended up 5th, not even in the playoffs, and Rogue, well... he barely made it out of Challenge with a 2-3 score in 4th place. Man, to qualify being 4th in a 6 people group, felt like watching Portugal playing Football right there. Anyway, a week before that, Innovation won GSL... Finishing 2nd in Ro16 group stage, Winning 3-2 in Ro8 and 4-3 in semis as well as in Finals, ending up as one, if not the least dominant GSL champion of any season we've ever had. (Oh btw Stats only finished 3rd/4th of that very same tournament) Now, the last tournament, ST2, happened one week after SSL, and saw Rogue taking the tournament in his first result in over 3 months time (basically off the radar before that). ... I mean, looking at these results, What a fool am I to even argue that Stats shouldn't be below Rogue & Innovation. But hey, I just forgot who I was talking to : "Lmao at all the raging Stats fanboys. Blizzcon starts in a few days and your favorite player can demonstrate exactly where he belongs in the PR. PRs measure current form, and Stats peaked around March."
"Ayyyy go for it. I want to feast on Stats-fanboy salt and tears.".. Is .. Is that you just... hours ago on this very same thread ? Oh man, "Mondays can always use a good long laugh". Indeed. Stats won the SSL finals 4-3. That's not dominating.
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On October 24 2017 10:47 Snarosc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2017 08:47 pvsnp wrote:On October 24 2017 08:03 Snarosc wrote: I can already see Innovation being #1 just for the sake of Innovation being Innovation. This terran fanboyism is becoming ridiculous at this point.
Just looking at Inno's last 10 matches : 5W - 5L
2 Loss against Stats 1 Loss against herO 1 Loss against aLive 1 Loss against TY
5 wins against :
Solar Trap Creator aLive Bunny.
Losing against the Top, winning against the mids.
WOW... The definition of peaking... GOAT. .............. 1. This Blizzcon PR, like every other PR, measures current form. Therefore, it completely disregards any results older than a few months. 2. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the most achievements across their career lifetime. Therefore, it completely disregards current form. 3. Every single one of the 10 matches you cited was played online, during the time immediately preceding Blizzcon. Online tourneys are an unreliable indicator of form in the best of times, and right before Blizzcon is about as far from that as could possibly be. Welding three different measures of three separate things into the most poorly-supported attack on the alleged bias of TL writers I have ever had the misfortune to read.........truly, I am impressed. It takes real work to craft an argument so utterly wrong in every aspect imaginable. Oh, and the accusation of "Terran fanboyism" took the cake. That level of hypocritical irony is usually reserved for Alex Jones and his ilk. Thank you. Mondays can always use a good long laugh. 1) Funny, what a familiar sound, again tickling my ears : "online results don't matter".... when it serves your point. Just one little problem on this one : we're just a few days before Blizzcon, 3 days actually, aaaand the last offline tournament was about a month ago (No no, ok ... I admit it.. ST2 was only 23 days ago). Best indicator to measure "current form" right ? We all know nothing changes in a month of SC2. But anyway, let's forget about online results for a second, as you wish : Stats won Starleague.. Literally a month ago, dominating the tournament from start to finish. When at the same time Innovation ended up 5th, not even in the playoffs, and Rogue, well... he barely made it out of Challenge with a 2-3 score in 4th place. Man, to qualify being 4th in a 6 people group, felt like watching Portugal playing Football right there. Anyway, a week before that, Innovation won GSL... Finishing 2nd in Ro16 group stage, Winning 3-2 in Ro8 and 4-3 in semis as well as in Finals, ending up as one, if not the least dominant GSL champion of any season we've ever had. (Oh btw Stats only finished 3rd/4th of that very same tournament) Now, the last tournament, ST2, happened one week after SSL, and saw Rogue taking the tournament in his first result in over 3 months time (basically off the radar before that). ... I mean, looking at these results, What a fool am I to even argue that Stats shouldn't be below Rogue & Innovation. But hey, I just forgot who I was talking to : "Lmao at all the raging Stats fanboys. Blizzcon starts in a few days and your favorite player can demonstrate exactly where he belongs in the PR. PRs measure current form, and Stats peaked around March."
"Ayyyy go for it. I want to feast on Stats-fanboy salt and tears.".. Is .. Is that you just... hours ago on this very same thread ? Oh man, "Mondays can always use a good long laugh". Indeed. First of all, thanks for addressing all my points. Your comprehensive reply about conflating current form with lifetime achievement was most enlightening.....oh wait. Well, I guess I shouldn't have expected anything more from you.
Now to address your own "points:"
1. "Funny, what a familiar sound, again tickling my ears : "online results don't matter".... when it serves your point."
Online results do matter. They just matter less than offline ones. In every scenario. That's my stance, and has always been my stance. Just because you like to use self-serving results doesn't mean everyone else stoops to the same lows. Go on, show me a single post where I ever claimed that online results matter more than offline. I'll wait. And laugh.
2. "Best indicator to measure "current form" right ? We all know nothing changes in a month of SC2." Certainly form can and does change in a month. We just don't have any way of reliably measuring that change right now. That's what Blizzcon is for, yknow the big offline tournament coming in a few days. You may have heard of it. In the meantime, we have to predict with what offline results we have, suboptimal though they may be. Imagine that, using big offline tournament results to predict a big offline tournament. Revolutionary, I know.
3. Some listing of offline results that appears to be accurate, though presented in a blatantly biased manner. Not that I'd expect any better from you.
4. "... I mean, looking at these results, What a fool am I to even argue that Stats shouldn't be below Rogue & Innovation."
Nice shifting the goalposts. If you can't win the argument, just change the subject! It works for Donald Trump, right? Your original post made a grand total of 0 mentions of Rogue. It mentioned Stats only in the context of Inno's online matches, nothing to do with Stats's ranking in this PR. It focused completely on Inno, and why Inno somehow would only be #1 due to "Terran fanboyism," citing some recent online results as evidence for slumping. Anytime you want to address the original discussion is fine. Knowing you, I won't hold my breath.
At least you are honest about admitting that you are a fool, though. I appreciate that.
4. "But hey, I just forgot who I was talking to :"
Somebody who isn't as moronically biased as you? Yeah, I suppose you did forget that.
5. ".. Is .. Is that you just... hours ago on this very same thread ? Oh man, "Mondays can always use a good long laugh". Indeed."
Actually, Stats is one of my favorite players. I'm a huge fan of his Rain-esque defensive macro style. Unlike you, I don't allow that favoritism of the player, or his race, to bleed over into assessing how well he is actually playing. It's called rationality, you might want to try it sometime.
All in all, I have to say that you continue to impress. It's been so long since I encountered such a sorry excuse for a post here on TL. I daresay your post would fit right in with Bnet rantings. Or even, just maybe, Twitch chat?
Do please try again, it's so very entertaining to read what you have to say. Though, I've seen more than enough of your Twitch chat ravings about how everything and everyone under the sun is somehow conspiring against Protoss to know how this ends. I know it must be terribly difficult to construct an argument longer than a sentence fragment, and without even any emotes no less. But please, continue.
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It wouldn't be a tl power ranking without controversy.
And if my memory is correct, last years blizzcon pr was even worse. So this one is a slight improvement.
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What a swell thread.
I'd probably have Stats at #2 myself but i think the top 3 are more or less interchangeable.
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Wow stats has a much lower win rate than I expected. Probably due to his usual opponents being others on this list.
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On October 24 2017 13:30 Phredxor wrote: What a swell thread.
I'd probably have Stats at #2 myself but i think the top 3 are more or less interchangeable.
I'd say that even with herO and Dark not having the same results in a similar time period, I think 1-2 could be any of Stats, Rogue, or INnoVation, and 3-5 could be any of herO and Dark and the previously mentioned trio. Of course, Dark definitely looks less scary after his loss in ST2, but with his close losses to both Stats and INnoVation, he's up there in the top 5.
Even though the Master's Coliseum was an online tournament, it was still worth 10K. But when combined with his results in ST2, herO beat Dark, INnoVation, Rogue, and soO in a tournament within the last three weeks. The Master's Coliseum was online, but a 10K prizepool is nothing to dismiss so easily. It's not like the Ting Open 4, where Neeb offraced against Scarlett in the winner's finals.
I think the top Koreans are incredibly close with TY and soO within shouting distance and GuMiho calling from a block or two away.
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On October 24 2017 14:34 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2017 13:30 Phredxor wrote: What a swell thread.
I'd probably have Stats at #2 myself but i think the top 3 are more or less interchangeable. I'd say that even with herO and Dark not having the same results in a similar time period, I think 1-2 could be any of Stats, Rogue, or INnoVation, and 3-5 could be any of herO and Dark and the previously mentioned trio. Of course, Dark definitely looks less scary after his loss in ST2, but with his close losses to both Stats and INnoVation, he's up there in the top 5. Even though the Master's Coliseum was an online tournament, it was still worth 10K. But when combined with his results in ST2, herO beat Dark, INnoVation, Rogue, and soO in a tournament within the last three weeks. The Master's Coliseum was online, but a 10K prizepool is nothing to dismiss so easily. It's not like the Ting Open 4, where Neeb offraced against Scarlett in the winner's finals. I think the top Koreans are incredibly close with TY and soO within shouting distance and GuMiho calling from a block or two away. Gumiho used to just shout louder, until that upjumped nouveau riche kid Neeb bought up the empty lot and built a new house there.
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I think the joke is not that powerrank should be based on current form(should be big part of it) but that stats’ current form is gauged based on his ST2 and master of coliseum’s results.
Name me one reason that stats would use his real strategy and build in those two tournaments. He didn’t need the points. Not starleague titles to win and the prize combined wouldnt beat winning one round at blizzcon, so why risk leaking real builds for opponents to study. It was in his best interest to play standard or fake builds and gave out as little information as possible. If you watched his ST2 game, you know what I mean. OTOH, players like hero is known to perform well at this kind of low stake tournaments(stakes are high for rogue though in ST2) By the same token, Rogue’s result in master’s coliseum should weigh very little in powerrank. Same goes for innovation (he had reserve in losing to Rogue and was almost intentionally not defending oracles in his TVP in master of coliseum). For Rogue, all that we knew was he was giving it all in ST2, and GSL S3, since he needed every point he could get.
The most recent data points you should use for players like Stats and inno are GSL s3 and SSL s2 because they compete for starleague championships(prestige and legacy) and are saving it for blizzcon(high prize pool and big stage). So to me, rogue’s current form while impressive(winning a tournament where exactly 4 players really cared so much about), is less so than Stats and Inno. Let alone the overall result. It is easy to say Stats is just a consistent good player. LOL, the guy peaked all year and had the luxury to cruise in small stages. Rogue/Dark for #3/4 is a toss up for me. I view Dark’s loss vs all-out Inno in GSL more impressive(Dark dictated the games) than Rogue winning vs a lousy Inno who was experimenting builds(again if you look at actual game content you know what I mean here) in ST2.
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The GSL match between Stats and Rogue is worth watching just as a Starcraft fan. It is epic!
I think it is retarded to discount a match just because it was close. The money difference between 1st and 2nd place in Anaheim is $140,000! Close does not mean shit it is who wins! Who wants to lose Premier league by one goal or the super bowl by a point or the world series by a run? You still lost!
I'm not a Stats fan boy as one poster calls some of us. I'm certainly not anti Rogue. What you have in that match is a cool collected player in Stats vs a player who thought that losing would be the end of his Blizzcon chances. Rogue was emotional in that match.
Now Rogue does have a history of playing well at Blizzcon. He made the semi finals in 2015. He beat Maru 3-0 and then beat Hydra 3-2 before getting spanked by sOs 3-0 in the semi final.
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Well said Iptuser. I agree with your entire post.
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On October 24 2017 04:45 Pandain wrote: Rogue looked craaaaazy good against the absolute best players in a high stakes tournament where his blizzcon chances were on the line.
Rogue played well in ST2 no doubt about it. High stake tournaments? No. Where his blizzcon chances were on the line? Ok maybe stake were high for him, sos, maru and classic. The list ends there, sorry aLive. Rewatch the games without listening to casters’ hypes (“best day in sc2’s history” on ST2’s last day by tastosis, are you kidding me?). I saw Rogue played really well against an Inno who was experimenting and hiding builds (look at how different his builds were in GSL semi/finals when he wa taking his opponents seriously).
He also looked good vs hero who usually peaks in a $10k tournament so I will give you that.
On October 24 2017 04:45 Pandain wrote: And I'm , for better or worse, ignoring most results between super tournament and blizzcon. They are unquestionably suspect in their validity since people are preparing their real and final builds for blizzcon.
What made you so convinced in the validity of results by players not named Rogue, sOs, Classic, and Maru in ST2?
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On October 24 2017 19:07 lptuser wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2017 04:45 Pandain wrote: Rogue looked craaaaazy good against the absolute best players in a high stakes tournament where his blizzcon chances were on the line.
Rogue played well in ST2 no doubt about it. High stake tournaments? No. Where his blizzcon chances were on the line? Ok maybe stake were high for him, sos, maru and classic. The list ends there, sorry aLive. Rewatch the games without listening to casters’ hypes (“best day in sc2’s history” on ST2’s last day by tastosis, are you kidding me?). I saw Rogue played really well against an Inno who was experimenting and hiding builds (look at how different his builds were in GSL semi/finals when he wa taking his opponents seriously). He also looked good vs hero who usually peaks in a $10k tournament so I will give you that. Show nested quote +On October 24 2017 04:45 Pandain wrote: And I'm , for better or worse, ignoring most results between super tournament and blizzcon. They are unquestionably suspect in their validity since people are preparing their real and final builds for blizzcon.
What made you so convinced in the validity of results by players not named Rogue, sOs, Classic, and Maru in ST2?
seems like you are making excuses, no one would give up a chance of victory in a GSL even a super tournament just to hide builds for a tournament 1 month away.
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On October 24 2017 19:10 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2017 19:07 lptuser wrote:On October 24 2017 04:45 Pandain wrote: Rogue looked craaaaazy good against the absolute best players in a high stakes tournament where his blizzcon chances were on the line.
Rogue played well in ST2 no doubt about it. High stake tournaments? No. Where his blizzcon chances were on the line? Ok maybe stake were high for him, sos, maru and classic. The list ends there, sorry aLive. Rewatch the games without listening to casters’ hypes (“best day in sc2’s history” on ST2’s last day by tastosis, are you kidding me?). I saw Rogue played really well against an Inno who was experimenting and hiding builds (look at how different his builds were in GSL semi/finals when he wa taking his opponents seriously). He also looked good vs hero who usually peaks in a $10k tournament so I will give you that. On October 24 2017 04:45 Pandain wrote: And I'm , for better or worse, ignoring most results between super tournament and blizzcon. They are unquestionably suspect in their validity since people are preparing their real and final builds for blizzcon.
What made you so convinced in the validity of results by players not named Rogue, sOs, Classic, and Maru in ST2? seems like you are making excuses, no one would give up a chance of victory in a GSL even a super tournament just to hide builds for a tournament 1 month away.
Seems like you dismiss points as excuses. I know it’s called GSL super tournament but its similarity to GSL ends there. Who would give up a chance of victory in ST2 just for blizzcon? Reread this sentence and tell me you are serious.
But I didn’t answer that question. Stats did and so did Inno. To be fair Rogue played really well that I’n not saying if Stats or Inno played to their full strength they would have won. But it’s clear from actual games that they were experimenting builds. They were executing those builds very seriously, since ST2 was a great practice opportunity for them. But still, I guarantee you they won’t use those builds in Blizzcon(nor did they in GSL S3 vs equal opponents)
Again in Korea, STs are at best on the level of Kespa cups: not nearly as prestigious as starleagues. Hence winning it felt like a consolation for Soo. When it was the last offline tournament before the real deal, its validity as measure of players’ real strength should be taken with a grain of salt to say the least (again not so much for the mentioned 4 players)
Edit: Did I mention players like herO peaks at $10k tournaments and other guys turn it up on big stages? Hint: the reason is not that herO is ‘unlucky’ in his peak timings. Top dogs simply aren’t 100% serious sometimes.
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Stats clearly been hiding builds ever since he qualified in March anyway. Nobody stands a chance.
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Not saying Rogue isn’t a monster by any means. But the only useful data points for Stats is saying he’s having the best form one could hope for (ok maybe dual star league champs is, but no one ever did that in one season.)
If you take 80% current form and 20% overall achievement Stats still wins by having one of best results any player had in any year and arguably the same recent form. If not, Rogue might as well be rank 1 since the same argument would fail harder for ranking inno above him.
My rant ends with this post. Been lurking on TL for years but this pr is just too ridiculous so I registered to post. Stats gets too little credit for doing so much(being the professor on a team with TY and being ace on a team with zest, somehow still giving westerners the impression that he’s just a hardworking great player, best individual yearly result in history and gets ranked #3 due to not performing as well in tournaments like ST..). Sorry for my bad english. I understand sometimes the ranking like this needs elements of surprise and if that’s the case I fell for it but I had to.
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Austria24413 Posts
This is not the best individual year a player has had. And WCS points are a horrible way to measure that.
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Rogue is probably the best Zerg atm and is in insane form. Reminds me a lot of Soulkey back in 2013 or a 2014 soO, that type of insane Zerg that doesn't let you leave your corner of the map. But I don't think that justifies his ranking above Stats because it is clear that both him and Inno are the two contenders for player of the year due to them being double Starleague champions with consistent form and great results across the board while Rogue just recently started turning heads.
I'd say it mostly comes down to what you value more. Something I would like to point out is that Rogue in relation to the aforementioned two has a clear weakness in his play (historically) and that is somewhat poor strategic decision-making and mentality in a long series, especially in a preparation based tournament. He has a tendancy to try overly risky builds too often per series and fall apart mentally. That is why he was such a monster in PL which is bo1, but never got past the ro8 in a Starleague setting.
I believe that given time to prepare both Stats and Inno would come out on top of Rogue 9/10 times. But since Blizzcon is not a prep based tournament, I would say that their chances are quite equal from the ro4 onwards, but should they meet earlier I would favour Stats/Inno.
The top three really is a toss-up in my eyes. I would prefer Rogue it #3 (due to the reason I just stated) and Stats at #2 but dependig on criteria it could easily be just as likely to have Rogue #1
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This feels like the proper time to say I've been hiding my builds on the ladder and am ready for the next GSL qualifier.
Hurricane better tremble in fear.
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Sometimes I feel like the language in this article kind of was a bit jumpy? The text is cool, but the comma usage makes me a bit tired, as if you are rapidly switching between accelerating and pumping the brakes of a car.
Stats is gonna win tho. Let`s go.
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Today's showing does not even warrant top 15. When I see players playing so bad out of the blue I never figured out why that kind of thing happens.
Unlike other physical sports, progamers lose forms too quickly often without reasons. Hopefully it's the case of jetlag but I fear it isn't.
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