It’s the day the troubled relationship between KeSPA and StarCraft II came to an end. It began in tempestuous waters, with heated words and a begrudging acceptance that the organization came late to the party; it ended in quiet defeat, with little more than a whimper as they retreated into the night.
KeSPA helped transform the original StarCraft into a cultural phenomenon by giving it legitimacy and corporate backing, but now its descendant would have to live without such support. Gone was Proleague and with it the structure of team houses and the promise of a safe salary. Those who labored in the system had watched their peers fly through high school and university; whether they were anxiety ridden or zealously hopeful, the discarded players bravely embarked into the new age, never having been given a choice.
"Stats is exactly what KeSPA had in mind when they established the team house environment."
One year later, it’s hard to remember the days when players lined up opposite one another fighting for sponsors and comrades instead of personal glory. That’s partly because 2017 has been so special in terms of how players have adjusted to the post-KeSPA era. We’ve witnessed the resurgence of soO, the meteoric rise of Rogue, the dominance of INnoVation and, after a brief interruption, the breathtaking stylings of Dark. And, of course, the humdrum consistency of Stats.
The current stars leading the scene come off as individuals with aspirations and nuance as opposed to conservative macro players rolling off the assembly line. Sure INnoVation is a former Proleague ace and once embodied such play, but he quit on his team in 2016 out of slothfulness and disinterest. soO’s freakish mechanics are exactly the sort of sublime genius one identifies with KeSPA players, but his gripes with SK Telecom are well documented. Our newest champion Rogue was raised in the team house environment, but he always felt like an outsider that complied just enough to get by. Dark took advantage of what SKT was offering, but the eSF scoundrel never allowed the training to overwrite his DNA.
And then there’s Stats. Hard working, loyal, humble and focused. Adaptable and creative, but not erratic and illogical, Stats is exactly what KeSPA had in mind when they established the team house environment. KeSPA is gone and StarCraft II may very well be better off for it, but its last son Stats is still playing, still winning the old way.
Winrate
57.96% vs. Terran 57.06% vs. Protoss 55.27% vs. Zerg
Rank
Circuit Standings 1
WCS Points
12875
We’ve gotten to know Stats quite well over the years. We admire him for his tireless work ethic, the type of nose to the grindstone attitude we all wish we could embody. He has very few critics, if any, as people are drawn to his affable nature. Then there’s the indisputable fact that he’s talented, though he seems blissfully ignorant of how phenomenal those gifts are. He just keeps pushing himself harder and harder, going from Proleague regular to ace, to champion, avoiding the pitfalls of Kongdom along the way. He was never satisfied with his results and always strove for more. It’s what his fans love and respect about him. It’s why they look at him so fondly and cheer for him so fervently. They may not be shouting his name from the rooftops like supporters of other elite players, but they see something in Stats they can relate to: confirmation of the age old adage about hard work.
Stats has always been LotV’s brightest star even when publicity and scheduling connived to make him a wallflower. He’s made the semifinals of eleven premier events, winning GSL Season 1 and SSL Premier Season 2 within the last seven months. He’s shaped metas and defined matchups. He’s been an indefatigable force over the last two years, and he’s done it all under the shadow of his contemporaries. For someone who was reduced to the role of understudy for much of his time on KT Rolster, playing second fiddle was nothing new. KeSPA always had stars, but the system was structured in such a way that everyone was required to give it their all, even when some never even got to take the stage after years toiling away in the team house. Players like Billowy got their moments in the sun, but there were far more B-Teamers like PenguiN or DynaMite who never got a chance to shine. It almost seemed natural for Stats, someone who had to work from the ground floor up, to cede attention to Dark and ByuN. Those players faded in time, supplanted by INnoVation, but Stats persevered.
KeSPA couldn’t teach every lesson. They could give players tools and structure, but an individual still had to take the next big step on their own if they wanted to achieve greatness. On KT, Stats stood besides Flash and Zest. If he wanted to inherit their legacy, he had a lot of work to do.
Stats was already a capable player when Legacy of the Void was released, but he was far from realizing his potential. His play was still rough around the edges. He lacked a greater understanding of the game, inevitably falling victim to rigid decision-making and a frail grasp on strategy as tournaments dragged on. He couldn’t dictate the pace of a game let alone manipulate the tides of a series, a deficiency which made a grand victory hard to come by. Riddled by hesitancy and uncertainty, he crumbled when the pressure was on.
It took another year of hard work before he began learning the lessons KeSPA couldn’t teach. Results started to pile up and although he lost his first Starleague finals to Dark, evidence of improvement was clear as day. He was seeing thing other players didn’t—for instance, how to fully exploit oracles against Zerg. He beat soO in GSL Season 1. He had learned to win. Whether it was with a deft timing or in a lengthy macro game, it didn’t matter. He could battle through the muck and come out the other side just as he could pioneer a comeback when in dire straits. Stats had gained the intangibles, the hidden teachings KeSPA could never advertise on one’s first tour of the team house.
Legacy of the Void has been a series of dramatically shifting landscapes, with most players failing to keep up. While aLive, Maru, ByuN and ByuL imitated Achilles with their brief, blinding moments of glory, Stats opted to be wily and grounded like Odysseus. Part of it has to be the resiliency gleaned from his time with KT Rolster. He never made excuses for himself and always kept improving. That’s the perspective with which he approaches the game to this day.
It’s hard to extrapolate what once was into the present but, looking at Stats, it's clear KeSPA’s values lives on. It’s through them that he’s become the greatest player of the last two years. Though overshadowed by Dark, ByuN and INnoVation, Stats was never in it for the attention. They may have shone far brighter, but they were really the ones standing in his shadow. Stats is KeSPA’s custodian, the pinnacle of the Korean model of humility, dedication and hard work. When he takes the BlizzCon stage, he does so with nearly fifteen years of history behind him. Champions like NaDa, iloveoov, Flash, Jaedong are arrayed behind him, those who strode KeSPA’s path before him. Stats will be fighting for himself and for their legacy, ready to carry the old ways to new glory.
I remember Flash once said about Stats that he was very crazy, not so well disciplined guy in the team house and suddenly Stats became very stable and well organized with gaining more experience. Those words are 100% correct if we observe carefully how deep Stats evolved with the pro-gaming years. I clearly remember a match in proleague against SKT1 when he beat Soulkey who was in his top shape back in 2013 and then I said to myself that this guy will gain a Code S title for sure in the future. I'm very curious about his future.
What? Stats should be #1! I mean divide his points in half and he's still in WCS Global finals!! Consistent results in all 3 GSL's and other tournaments wtf? btw I am huge Rogue fan, okay?
On October 23 2017 20:37 Olli wrote: Power Ranks are largely based on current form. Rogue and INnoVation have done better than Stats recently.
Did they? Stats did better than Rogue in GSL S3 and came first in SSL. Unless by recently you mean only ST2
edit: I just realised how consistant Stat's improvement has been. Since the start of HoTS his results have improved each year without fault. Has he even reached his final form yet?
On October 23 2017 19:10 Synchronize` wrote: so Rogue #2 Inno #1? Surprised that you put Rogue ahead of Stats, I mean on current form Rogue's a champion but Stats has been so solid all year.
It's been initmated in a few of these power ranking articles that Rogue will be at #1
When Kespa team disbanded and proleague ended it's easy for people to assume a player like Stats who devoted his entire career to the system would suffer the heaviest blow, yet he turned out to be one of least affected players and went on to reach the height of his career on his own, yet Zest, one with much more experience and success in individual tournaments slumped hard.
Irony as it goes.
P.S. still using "circuit standings" for KR players?
I'll temper my comments the best I can. To have Stats ranked anything below 2nd is total absolute bullcrap! A travesty an abomination!
The guy had more WCS points than anybody ever has. He had 2700 more points than Innovation!
If we are going to base these rankings entirely on ST 2 then Hero should be 2nd right? Rogue and Hero 1 and 2?
Stats is a rock of Gibraltar to move in big tournaments. Players come along motivated and in great form and he still beats them.
GSL season 3 vs Rogue. This is all you need to know. Rogue was at the top of Korean ladder he needed that win much more than Stats so what happened? Stats won!
SSL premier season 2. Dark was in great form and had just beaten 2 Protoss players in the playoffs 4-2 over Dear and 4-2 over classic. He could not beat Stats.
On October 23 2017 21:42 Rolltide wrote: I'll temper my comments the best I can. To have Stats ranked anything below 2nd is total absolute bullcrap! A travesty an abomination!
As far as super recent form they both did poorly in Master's coliseum and Stats is 6-4 in his last 10 matches where Rogue is 6-3-1.
I know this is all in fun to provoke discussion and debate leading up to Blizzcon but the rankings have to be somewhat credible. I would have put Rogue 4th behind Inno, Stats and Dark.
Honestly, Rogue was not even being considered among the best until he won the super tournament to now have him as a favourite above Stats and possibly innovation is just wrong even if he is in good form.
On October 23 2017 21:53 Rolltide wrote: As far as super recent form they both did poorly in Master's coliseum and Stats is 6-4 in his last 10 matches where Rogue is 6-3-1.
I know this is all in fun to provoke discussion and debate leading up to Blizzcon but the rankings have to be somewhat credible. I would have put Rogue 4th behind Inno, Stats and Dark.
I know that Stats has a large fan base, and I like him as well. But if I have to calm my emotions and be objective then not only I put Rogue above him, but herO is above Stats as well by means of form.
I know that herO doesn't have many fans, and some don't even like his play style (I'm one among them), but by means of form and chances of winning it all herO has more then Stats.
On October 23 2017 21:57 Z3nith wrote: Honestly, Rogue was not even being considered among the best until he won the super tournament to now have him as a favourite above Stats and possibly innovation is just wrong even if he is in good form.
I know that Stats has a large fan base, and I like him as well. But if I have to calm my emotions and be objective then not only I put Rogue above him, but herO is above Stats as well by means of form.
Since when is it only about form? And what does that mean how a guy played this week only?
At Master's coliseum 2 these are the matches Rogue played.
In group. 2-0 vs TIME, 1-1 vs Elazer, 0-2 vs Classic, vs Byun was a wash because Byun did not show.
Then in the rd of 12 he was eliminated by Hero 3-1.
So what is so damned impressive about that? That's top 2 in the world? That is the last significant tournament he played in!
So classic should be 2nd then? Or first? Hero won that tournament.
I love the article, yet I feel like KeSpa overshadowed Stat's actual accomplishments. Of course people uphold KeSpa with high regard, but I felt like there was more KeSpa hyping then actual Stats hyping.
Overall, I really liked the verbage and opener/ender.
On October 23 2017 21:57 Z3nith wrote: Honestly, Rogue was not even being considered among the best until he won the super tournament to now have him as a favourite above Stats and possibly innovation is just wrong even if he is in good form.
Someone is forgetting IEM Shanghai.
Ah yes IEM shanghai beats out an SSL and GSL title and quite a few ro4s etc. Sure. Not to mention for innovation the GSL, GSL vs the world and an SSL.
On October 23 2017 21:57 Z3nith wrote: Honestly, Rogue was not even being considered among the best until he won the super tournament to now have him as a favourite above Stats and possibly innovation is just wrong even if he is in good form.
Someone is forgetting IEM Shanghai.
Ah yes IEM shanghai beats out an SSL and GSL title and quite a few ro4s etc. Sure. Not to mention for innovation the GSL, GSL vs the world and an SSL.
Look at the last 4 months and keep in mind that GSL vs The World was an invitational tournament. Unless tournament wins don't mean much in your book, the only people who can compare with Rogue are Innovation and Neeb.
On October 23 2017 22:51 Charoisaur wrote: Some people don't understand the purpose of a powerrank.
I think people overrate trophies when it comes to them. If you just rank everyone based on their finish in the latest tournament then what's the point? Given how rare back-to-back championships are, it's clearly not the right way to go about it
On October 23 2017 21:57 Z3nith wrote: Honestly, Rogue was not even being considered among the best until he won the super tournament to now have him as a favourite above Stats and possibly innovation is just wrong even if he is in good form.
Someone is forgetting IEM Shanghai.
Ah yes IEM shanghai beats out an SSL and GSL title and quite a few ro4s etc. Sure. Not to mention for innovation the GSL, GSL vs the world and an SSL.
On October 23 2017 21:42 Rolltide wrote: I'll temper my comments the best I can. To have Stats ranked anything below 2nd is total absolute bullcrap! A travesty an abomination!
You're one funny poster.
That's my new quote, it's just so theatrical and dramatic
any sports analyst with basic understandings of ranking skilled players based on overall results would put stats above 3rd place, and more likely to win blizzcon, only TL would be biased or stupid enough or selective enough to make a ranking off of two tournaments.
Stats is a stable player, no ebb and flow in his game or performance. He is the perfect balance of control and aggression. And he always manages to preform well in big stages.
Lmao at all the raging Stats fanboys. Blizzcon starts in a few days and your favorite player can demonstrate exactly where he belongs in the PR.
PRs measure current form, and Stats peaked around March. Some people just can't understand that, I guess. If TL is wrong then Stats can prove it himself.
I'm guessing Rogue will be second and Inno first, but wouldn't be surprised if it's the other way around.
On October 23 2017 21:57 Z3nith wrote: Honestly, Rogue was not even being considered among the best until he won the super tournament to now have him as a favourite above Stats and possibly innovation is just wrong even if he is in good form.
Someone is forgetting IEM Shanghai.
Ah yes IEM shanghai beats out an SSL and GSL title and quite a few ro4s etc. Sure. Not to mention for innovation the GSL, GSL vs the world and an SSL.
Yes, IEM Shanghai > SSL.
And GSL+GslvsW > IEM+GSLST > SSL.
Given the interesting format of SSL, I can understand IEM and ST > SSL, but Stats won both a GSL and an SSL title.
Also, I don't see how Stats peaked in March as his SSL victory was in Late September.
I don't really care what the order is for the top 3-4 since they're pretty close together anyways, but it is interesting to talk about form, where an SSL should be higher than an ST. Not to mention, Stats recently swept through all the Terrans at Blizzcon in an Olimoleague.
PRs measure current form, and Stats peaked around March. Some people just can't understand that, I guess. If TL is wrong then Stats can prove it himself.
If Stats was only good around March when he won GSL how did he end up with over 12000 points? That is sick you are aware of that right? Hero ran away with the points in 2015 with just 7900, Dark clearly won it last year with 9400.
And why was a horrible out of form Stats able to beat a super stud in form Rogue in GSL s 3? Why was a horrible out of form Stats able to beat a surging Dark in SSL s 2?
This is a guy who had his ticket punched to Blizzcon on March 26th yet keeps going deep in tournament after tournament.
Nobody has been this good over an entire year. Nobody! Not MC, MVP, Life, nobody!
Some people have trouble grasping the concept of "peak," I guess.
Stats peaked in March, after he won GSL S1. This means that Stats was at his strongest, relative to the rest of the competitive scene, in March. At that time, he was undisputed as the best player in the world, with TY being second.
Peaking in March does not mean Stats is trash right now. Winning SSL S2 shows that Stats is still plenty strong. But arguing that Stats is undisputed as the best player in the world right now is, bluntly put, idiocy (though some people here are still trying). Dark, herO, Rogue, Inno, all these players have strong cases for being as strong or stronger than Stats is right now.
What Stats did in beating Dark in SSL was extraordinary. It was a 4-3 win and Dark had to pull off a miracle in one map to make it that close.
Dark handled Dear and Classic 4-2. He had all that practice against Protoss players. Classic was super motivated he needed that win to get to Blizzcon. Despite everything going his way Dark could not beat Stats. Stats was at another level.
I am fine with this position since it seems to be about recent form.
But that also means that Rogue has to be #1, since his recent form is the best, and even all the pros agree that he is the best. If Inno gets to be #1 now, because he was better overall this year, Stats should've been above Rogue as well.
So Rogue now has to be #1 or it lost all meaning and I will just forget about this PR. That would of course not mean that I can not just enjoy the articles without caring about the ranking.
On October 24 2017 02:39 Musicus wrote: I am fine with this position since it seems to be about recent form.
But that also means that Rogue has to be #1, since his recent form is the best, and even all the pros agree that he is the best. If Inno gets to be #1 now, because he was better overall this year, Stats should've been above Rogue as well.
So Rogue now has to be #1 or it lost all meaning and I will just forget about this PR. That would of course not mean that I can not just enjoy the articles without caring about the ranking.
Thanks for another awesome piece of writing!
???
Most recent tournaments were GSL, SSL, and GSL Super Tournament. Inno won GSL, got 5th in SSL, and semifinals in ST. Rogue got Ro8 in GSL, wasn't even in SSL Premier, and won ST.
There's a perfectly legitimate case for Inno > Rogue based on recent tournaments.
Mvp and Zest were both better in 2011 and 2014 respectively. INnoVation was better this year too.
And nobody's arguing that Stats is horribly out of form. Just that Rogue's recent form is a bit better.
You continue to exaggerate massively.
How was Zest better in 2014? You are making that up. Zest won a GSL and a Kespa. How does that trump a GSL and an SSL? He finished third in points behind Bomber and Hyun with 5800. Stats has over 12000. Innovation had an absolutely monster year and Stats still has more than 2000 points.
FYI you gain points by playing well. This is not a figment of somebody's imagination. This is not an opinion of how he played. You EARN points by finishing high in significant tournaments.
Stats finished in the top 4 in 6 major tournaments. 6! He won 2 of them and finished 2nd in 2 of them. That is sick! 4 of those tournaments occurred after March.
Most recent tournaments were GSL, SSL, and GSL Super Tournament. Inno won GSL, got 5th in SSL, and semifinals in ST. Rogue got Ro8 in GSL, wasn't even in SSL Premier, and won ST.
There's a perfectly legitimate case for Inno > Rogue based on recent tournaments.
Who won SSL s 2? Who was the one who eliminated Rogue in GSL 3? My god you have the nerve to brag that Rogue made the round of 8 in GSL 3?
On October 24 2017 02:39 Musicus wrote: I am fine with this position since it seems to be about recent form.
But that also means that Rogue has to be #1, since his recent form is the best, and even all the pros agree that he is the best. If Inno gets to be #1 now, because he was better overall this year, Stats should've been above Rogue as well.
So Rogue now has to be #1 or it lost all meaning and I will just forget about this PR. That would of course not mean that I can not just enjoy the articles without caring about the ranking.
Thanks for another awesome piece of writing!
???
Most recent tournaments were GSL, SSL, and GSL Super Tournament. Inno won GSL, got 5th in SSL, and semifinals in ST. Rogue got Ro8 in GSL, wasn't even in SSL Premier, and won ST.
There's a perfectly legitimate case for Inno > Rogue based on recent tournaments.
Yeah well Stats was in GSL ro4, won SSL and an lost 2-3 to soO in ST.
So there is also a perfectly legitimate case for ranking Stats above Rogue.
So either Rogue is above both or below both, but not inbetween imo.
On October 24 2017 02:39 Musicus wrote: I am fine with this position since it seems to be about recent form.
But that also means that Rogue has to be #1, since his recent form is the best, and even all the pros agree that he is the best. If Inno gets to be #1 now, because he was better overall this year, Stats should've been above Rogue as well.
So Rogue now has to be #1 or it lost all meaning and I will just forget about this PR. That would of course not mean that I can not just enjoy the articles without caring about the ranking.
Thanks for another awesome piece of writing!
???
Most recent tournaments were GSL, SSL, and GSL Super Tournament. Inno won GSL, got 5th in SSL, and semifinals in ST. Rogue got Ro8 in GSL, wasn't even in SSL Premier, and won ST.
There's a perfectly legitimate case for Inno > Rogue based on recent tournaments.
Yeah well Stats was in GSL ro4, won SSL and an lost 2-3 to soO in ST.
So there is also a perfectly legitimate case for ranking Stats above Rogue.
So either Rogue is above both or below both, but not inbetween imo.
There is indeed a perfectly legitimate case for Stats > Rogue. There is also a perfectly legitimate case for Rogue > Stats, and a perfectly legitimate case for Rogue > Inno.
Which case actually turns out to be reality is up to the TL writers. They chose Rogue > Stats, and we will find out tomorrow whether they chose Rogue > Inno or Inno > Rogue.
On October 24 2017 00:56 Cricketer12 wrote: Reminds me of Man vs Machine, the drg v inno ro8 preview...well done miz, it certainly lived up to the hype.
On October 24 2017 00:56 Cricketer12 wrote: Reminds me of Man vs Machine, the drg v inno ro8 preview...well done miz, it certainly lived up to the hype.
On October 24 2017 02:39 Musicus wrote: I am fine with this position since it seems to be about recent form.
But that also means that Rogue has to be #1, since his recent form is the best, and even all the pros agree that he is the best. If Inno gets to be #1 now, because he was better overall this year, Stats should've been above Rogue as well.
So Rogue now has to be #1 or it lost all meaning and I will just forget about this PR. That would of course not mean that I can not just enjoy the articles without caring about the ranking.
Thanks for another awesome piece of writing!
???
Most recent tournaments were GSL, SSL, and GSL Super Tournament. Inno won GSL, got 5th in SSL, and semifinals in ST. Rogue got Ro8 in GSL, wasn't even in SSL Premier, and won ST.
There's a perfectly legitimate case for Inno > Rogue based on recent tournaments.
Yeah well Stats was in GSL ro4, won SSL and an lost 2-3 to soO in ST.
So there is also a perfectly legitimate case for ranking Stats above Rogue.
So either Rogue is above both or below both, but not inbetween imo.
There is indeed a perfectly legitimate case for Stats > Rogue. There is also a perfectly legitimate case for Rogue > Stats, and a perfectly legitimate case for Rogue > Inno.
Which case actually turns out to be reality is up to the TL writers. They chose Rogue > Stats, and we will find out tomorrow whether they chose Rogue > Inno or Inno > Rogue.
But there is no perfeclty legitimate case for Inno > Rogue > Stats. That result only exists if you use double standards or different criteria when comparing Rogue and Stats and Rogue and Inno.
Wow it's been a while since I've seen such a huge adamant fanboy.
I'm not complaining even though I disagree, I'm a statsboy myself :popcorn:
More on topic, even though I have strong opinions on the matter, you can justify a lot of different top 5 rankings between stats, dark, hero, inno, and rogue and still be legitimate. Theres no harm in diversity of opinion .
On October 24 2017 02:39 Musicus wrote: I am fine with this position since it seems to be about recent form.
But that also means that Rogue has to be #1, since his recent form is the best, and even all the pros agree that he is the best. If Inno gets to be #1 now, because he was better overall this year, Stats should've been above Rogue as well.
So Rogue now has to be #1 or it lost all meaning and I will just forget about this PR. That would of course not mean that I can not just enjoy the articles without caring about the ranking.
Thanks for another awesome piece of writing!
???
Most recent tournaments were GSL, SSL, and GSL Super Tournament. Inno won GSL, got 5th in SSL, and semifinals in ST. Rogue got Ro8 in GSL, wasn't even in SSL Premier, and won ST.
There's a perfectly legitimate case for Inno > Rogue based on recent tournaments.
Yeah well Stats was in GSL ro4, won SSL and an lost 2-3 to soO in ST.
So there is also a perfectly legitimate case for ranking Stats above Rogue.
So either Rogue is above both or below both, but not inbetween imo.
There is indeed a perfectly legitimate case for Stats > Rogue. There is also a perfectly legitimate case for Rogue > Stats, and a perfectly legitimate case for Rogue > Inno.
Which case actually turns out to be reality is up to the TL writers. They chose Rogue > Stats, and we will find out tomorrow whether they chose Rogue > Inno or Inno > Rogue.
But there is no perfeclty legitimate case for Inno > Rogue > Stats. That result only exists if you use double standards or different criteria when comparing Rogue and Stats and Rogue and Inno.
???
Of course there is a legitimate case for Inno > Rogue > Stats. Such a case would depend on your definition of "recent." Stats won SSL S2, true enough, but the only other tournament he won before that in 2017 was GSL S1 back in March. On the other hand both Rogue and Inno have tournaments more recently than Stats. Including IEM Shanghai and GSL vs the World, for example, would be a perfectly legitimate way to justify Inno > Rogue > Stats.
Point being, the top players (Rogue, Stats, Inno, Dark, herO) are all close enough that it is not at all difficult to justify ordering them in pretty much any arbitrary order. Everyone has their own subjective weighting of the myriad criteria that go into a PR, and that produces a multitude of subjective rankings, many of which are perfectly legitimate. Only fanatically biased fanboys will bitch and moan about their favorite player being one rank too low or some other trivial shit, and only myopic ones would claim a different PR is somehow wrong simply because they disagree.
I am a big Stats fan myself, but you don't see me complaining about his rank. If he were ranked #2 or #1 I would be happier, but there's nothing illegitimate about him being #3 either.
On October 24 2017 02:39 Musicus wrote: I am fine with this position since it seems to be about recent form.
But that also means that Rogue has to be #1, since his recent form is the best, and even all the pros agree that he is the best. If Inno gets to be #1 now, because he was better overall this year, Stats should've been above Rogue as well.
So Rogue now has to be #1 or it lost all meaning and I will just forget about this PR. That would of course not mean that I can not just enjoy the articles without caring about the ranking.
Thanks for another awesome piece of writing!
???
Most recent tournaments were GSL, SSL, and GSL Super Tournament. Inno won GSL, got 5th in SSL, and semifinals in ST. Rogue got Ro8 in GSL, wasn't even in SSL Premier, and won ST.
There's a perfectly legitimate case for Inno > Rogue based on recent tournaments.
Yeah well Stats was in GSL ro4, won SSL and an lost 2-3 to soO in ST.
So there is also a perfectly legitimate case for ranking Stats above Rogue.
So either Rogue is above both or below both, but not inbetween imo.
There is indeed a perfectly legitimate case for Stats > Rogue. There is also a perfectly legitimate case for Rogue > Stats, and a perfectly legitimate case for Rogue > Inno.
Which case actually turns out to be reality is up to the TL writers. They chose Rogue > Stats, and we will find out tomorrow whether they chose Rogue > Inno or Inno > Rogue.
But there is no perfeclty legitimate case for Inno > Rogue > Stats. That result only exists if you use double standards or different criteria when comparing Rogue and Stats and Rogue and Inno.
???
Of course there is a legitimate case for Inno > Rogue > Stats. Such a case would depend on your definition of "recent." Stats won SSL S2, true enough, but the only other tournament he won before that in 2017 was GSL S1 back in March. On the other hand both Rogue and Inno have tournaments more recently than Stats. Including IEM Shanghai and GSL vs the World, for example, would be a perfectly legitimate way to justify Inno > Rogue > Stats.
Point being, the top players (Rogue, Stats, Inno, Dark, herO) are all close enough that it is not at all difficult to justify ordering them in pretty much any arbitrary order. Only fanatically biased fanboys will bitch and moan about their favorite player being one rank too low or some other trivial shit.
Not really though, since I personally like Rogue more than Stats. He is the reason I've had a JAGW flair for years. I don't care about Maru or sOs.
And you can not include GSL vs the world, since it was a fan vote and Rogue didn't even play. Either you include IEM Shanghai and say it's recent form and Rogue is above everybody, or you say best overall this year and Stats and Inno are both above Rogue.
Mvp and Zest were both better in 2011 and 2014 respectively. INnoVation was better this year too.
And nobody's arguing that Stats is horribly out of form. Just that Rogue's recent form is a bit better.
You continue to exaggerate massively.
How was Zest better in 2014? You are making that up. Zest won a GSL and a Kespa. How does that trump a GSL and an SSL? He finished third in points behind Bomber and Hyun with 5800. Stats has over 12000. Innovation had an absolutely monster year and Stats still has more than 2000 points.
FYI you gain points by playing well. This is not a figment of somebody's imagination. This is not an opinion of how he played. You EARN points by finishing high in significant tournaments.
Stats finished in the top 4 in 6 major tournaments. 6! He won 2 of them and finished 2nd in 2 of them. That is sick! 4 of those tournaments occurred after March.
Zest was better in 2014 — he won 3 Korean tournaments (GSL, GSL Global Championship, KeSPA Cup), got second at IEM Toronto, all-killed SKT in a Proleague Round Finals, played a huge part in KT winning the season. Reached the quarterfinals or better of every single tournament he attended leading up to BlizzCon. Got to the semifinals of another GSL where he was one map away from the finals.
WCS points don't tell the whole story. But arguing with you is and has always been pointless. You won't listen to rational arguments or people explaining to you that other metrics than the ones you employ are at work here.
On October 24 2017 02:39 Musicus wrote: I am fine with this position since it seems to be about recent form.
But that also means that Rogue has to be #1, since his recent form is the best, and even all the pros agree that he is the best. If Inno gets to be #1 now, because he was better overall this year, Stats should've been above Rogue as well.
So Rogue now has to be #1 or it lost all meaning and I will just forget about this PR. That would of course not mean that I can not just enjoy the articles without caring about the ranking.
Thanks for another awesome piece of writing!
???
Most recent tournaments were GSL, SSL, and GSL Super Tournament. Inno won GSL, got 5th in SSL, and semifinals in ST. Rogue got Ro8 in GSL, wasn't even in SSL Premier, and won ST.
There's a perfectly legitimate case for Inno > Rogue based on recent tournaments.
Yeah well Stats was in GSL ro4, won SSL and an lost 2-3 to soO in ST.
So there is also a perfectly legitimate case for ranking Stats above Rogue.
So either Rogue is above both or below both, but not inbetween imo.
There is indeed a perfectly legitimate case for Stats > Rogue. There is also a perfectly legitimate case for Rogue > Stats, and a perfectly legitimate case for Rogue > Inno.
Which case actually turns out to be reality is up to the TL writers. They chose Rogue > Stats, and we will find out tomorrow whether they chose Rogue > Inno or Inno > Rogue.
But there is no perfeclty legitimate case for Inno > Rogue > Stats. That result only exists if you use double standards or different criteria when comparing Rogue and Stats and Rogue and Inno.
???
Of course there is a legitimate case for Inno > Rogue > Stats. Such a case would depend on your definition of "recent." Stats won SSL S2, true enough, but the only other tournament he won before that in 2017 was GSL S1 back in March. On the other hand both Rogue and Inno have tournaments more recently than Stats. Including IEM Shanghai and GSL vs the World, for example, would be a perfectly legitimate way to justify Inno > Rogue > Stats.
Point being, the top players (Rogue, Stats, Inno, Dark, herO) are all close enough that it is not at all difficult to justify ordering them in pretty much any arbitrary order. Only fanatically biased fanboys will bitch and moan about their favorite player being one rank too low or some other trivial shit.
Not really though, since I personally like Rogue more than Stats. He is the reason I've had a JAGW flair for years. I don't care about Maru or sOs.
And you can not include GSL vs the world, since it was a fan vote and Rogue didn't even play. Either you include IEM Shanghai and say it's recent form and Rogue is above everybody, or you say best overall this year and Stats and Inno are both above Rogue.
That's the point.
Including GSL vs the World or not is exactly the kind of subjective weighting that I described in my earlier post. You say it is not valid because it was an invitational. Another person can say differently because there were undeniably a lot of talented players in attendance. Either is perfectly legitimate, and both produce perfectly legitimate rankings that just so happen to be different (like Inno > Rogue > Stats).
Mvp and Zest were both better in 2011 and 2014 respectively. INnoVation was better this year too.
And nobody's arguing that Stats is horribly out of form. Just that Rogue's recent form is a bit better.
You continue to exaggerate massively.
How was Zest better in 2014? You are making that up. Zest won a GSL and a Kespa. How does that trump a GSL and an SSL? He finished third in points behind Bomber and Hyun with 5800. Stats has over 12000. Innovation had an absolutely monster year and Stats still has more than 2000 points.
FYI you gain points by playing well. This is not a figment of somebody's imagination. This is not an opinion of how he played. You EARN points by finishing high in significant tournaments.
Stats finished in the top 4 in 6 major tournaments. 6! He won 2 of them and finished 2nd in 2 of them. That is sick! 4 of those tournaments occurred after March.
WCS points don't tell the whole story. But arguing with you is and has always been pointless. You won't listen to rational arguments or people explaining to you that other metrics than the ones you employ are at work here.
Savage.
That being said, I don't exactly disagree....I thought it more in keeping with decorum to politely disregard the irrational posts, though.
On October 24 2017 03:23 Olli wrote: GSL vs the World being an invitational doesn't invalidate the play that happened there.
It does if you want to compare the winner of the tournament with a player who did not have the chance to play there.
Rogue not having the chance to play there simply means that we treat the tournament as a net zero for him. For Inno it was a net positive, because he won the tournament. For sOs it was a net negative because he lost to Neeb. And so on and so forth.
That is one valid way to treat GSL vs the World. There are others.
On October 24 2017 03:23 Olli wrote: GSL vs the World being an invitational doesn't invalidate the play that happened there.
It does if you want to compare the winner of the tournament with a player who did not have the chance to play there.
Rogue not having the chance to play there simply means that we treat the tournament as a net zero for him. For Inno it was a net positive, because he won the tournament. For sOs it was a net negative because he lost to Neeb. And so on and so forth.
That is one valid way to treat GSL vs the World. There are others.
Okay sure, then let's do a Rogue showmatch series and never invite Inno to it and count them too.
Anyway, I was just stating my opinion and what would render this PR irrelevant to me. You or the writers don't have to agree and the articles are still great regardless of the ranking.
I don't get how tournament wins are valued so much higher than getting far in the tournament also. Rogue managed to get past ro8 only twice this whole year I think. meanwhile stats did it 7 times this year if you count Gyeonggi, that's 7 semi-finals or finals.
though you could mention that rogue could not even play in gsl vs. the world only 2 months ago because he didn't even have enough wcs points, lol.
consistency > two recent tournament wins in any betting or rating.
Mvp and Zest were both better in 2011 and 2014 respectively. INnoVation was better this year too.
And nobody's arguing that Stats is horribly out of form. Just that Rogue's recent form is a bit better.
You continue to exaggerate massively.
How was Zest better in 2014? You are making that up. Zest won a GSL and a Kespa. How does that trump a GSL and an SSL? He finished third in points behind Bomber and Hyun with 5800. Stats has over 12000. Innovation had an absolutely monster year and Stats still has more than 2000 points.
FYI you gain points by playing well. This is not a figment of somebody's imagination. This is not an opinion of how he played. You EARN points by finishing high in significant tournaments.
Stats finished in the top 4 in 6 major tournaments. 6! He won 2 of them and finished 2nd in 2 of them. That is sick! 4 of those tournaments occurred after March.
Out of the 7 major korean tourmanents in 2014 (GSL 1/2/3, GSL world cup, kespa cup, hot6 cup, and proleague) Zest won 4, got 2 ro4s and one ro8. His 2014, MVPs 2011, and Inno's 2017 are hands down the best runs of all time. Stats isn't far behind though
And WCS points are a usless comparison. The point distribution is completely different now, and Stats had more tournaments that he competed in due to proleague being a big focus back in 2014. Zest was still the number 1 ranked WCS korea player in 2014, so in that sense they're still even
On October 24 2017 03:23 Olli wrote: GSL vs the World being an invitational doesn't invalidate the play that happened there.
It does if you want to compare the winner of the tournament with a player who did not have the chance to play there.
Rogue not having the chance to play there simply means that we treat the tournament as a net zero for him. For Inno it was a net positive, because he won the tournament. For sOs it was a net negative because he lost to Neeb. And so on and so forth.
That is one valid way to treat GSL vs the World. There are others.
Okay sure, then let's do a Rogue showmatch series and never invite Inno to it and count them too.
Anyway, I was just stating my opinion and what would render this PR irrelevant to me. You or the writers don't have to agree and the articles are still great regardless of the ranking.
If Rogue had a showmatch series, I would have no problem counting it. Such a series would be information about Rogue's current form. There's no need to discard information simply because it is not exhaustive and doesn't inform us about Inno's current form.
I'm glad you can draw the distinction between appreciation and agreement though. That's a rare talent around here.
On October 24 2017 03:39 youngjiddle wrote: I don't get how tournament wins are valued so much higher than getting far in the tournament also. Rogue managed to get past ro8 only twice this whole year I think. meanwhile stats did it 7 times this year if you count Gyeonggi, that's 7 semi-finals or finals.
though you could mention that rogue could not even play in gsl vs. the world only 2 months ago because he didn't even have enough wcs points, lol.
consistency > two recent tournament wins in any betting or rating.
You don't get it because you overlooked the multiple reiterations of how a PR measures current form. Allow me to repeat: PRs measure current form.
Consistency across 2017 is irrelevant. Immaterial. Outside the scope of this article, and all 16 articles in this Road to Blizzcon series. You are complaining that your speedometer does not tell you the color of your car.
2016 IEM results have no bearing whatsoever on a 2017 Blizzcon PR
Olli when you make a rational argument I'll be glad to agree with it. Saying that rankings are based on recent form is as superficial and lame as one can get. I'm not the only one who thinks Stats should be ranked higher than Rogue so I guess many of us are illogical and stupid and bull headed eh.
If you can't engage in a vigorous debate then just admit it and walk away. I made points that destroyed your argument(Stats beat Rogue!!!!!) so to get back at me you give me a warning. You are just being a vindictive ass.
And WCS points are a usless comparison. The point distribution is completely different now, and Stats had more tournaments that he competed in due to proleague being a big focus back in 2014. Zest was still the number 1 ranked WCS korea player in 2014, so in that sense they're still even
The issue with WCS points is that Stats has by far the most of any player this year.
Putting Rogue ahead of Stats would be like putting SoO ahead of Zest in 2014. SoO was in better form in late October.
Wait it was a 3-2? How can you use a close series as your primal argument that one player is unquestionably better than the other as a whole. Even disregarding how close it was, if we used head to head as our metric, we might as well disregard this ranking and use the unofficial world champion one.
What I'll say is that you can definitely make arguments that stats should be higher ranked, maybe even as high as 1 depending on the metric. But I'm sure you agree there are strong arguments the other way around, such as just looking at the strength of rogues play in the last major tournament. And it's a bigger question than head to head, it's "who is an overall scarier player to play against". Rogue looked craaaaazy good against the absolute best players in a high stakes tournament where his blizzcon chances were on the line.
And I'm , for better or worse, ignoring most results between super tournament and blizzcon. They are unquestionably suspect in their validity since people are preparing their real and final builds for blizzcon.
On October 24 2017 04:05 Rolltide wrote: Olli when you make a rational argument I'll be glad to agree with it. Saying that rankings are based on recent form is as superficial and lame as one can get. I'm not the only one who thinks Stats should be ranked higher than Rogue so I guess many of us are illogical and stupid and bull headed eh.
If you can't engage in a vigorous debate then just admit it and walk away. I made points that destroyed your argument(Stats beat Rogue!!!!!) so to get back at me you give me a warning. You are just being a vindictive ass.
KBB warned you for triple posting, which we've all told you a hundred times not to do.
On October 24 2017 04:05 Rolltide wrote: Olli when you make a rational argument I'll be glad to agree with it. Saying that rankings are based on recent form is as superficial and lame as one can get. I'm not the only one who thinks Stats should be ranked higher than Rogue so I guess many of us are illogical and stupid and bull headed eh.
If you can't engage in a vigorous debate then just admit it and walk away. I made points that destroyed your argument(Stats beat Rogue!!!!!) so to get back at me you give me a warning. You are just being a vindictive ass.
KBB warned you for triple posting, which we've all told you a hundred times not to do.
These have been entertaining reads! No reason to get worked up over for fun rankings everyone, we all have our own opinions Rooting for Stats to win the whole thing, strongest player of 2017 in my book!
Wait it was a 3-2? How can you use a close series as your primal argument that one player is unquestionably better than the other as a whole. Even disregarding how close it was, if we used head to head as our metric, we might as well disregard this ranking and use the unofficial world champion one.
Had Rogue won that match I guarantee you people would be using that as an argument for why he should be ranked ahead of Stats.
To be honest, the reason Rogue being so hype right now is mostly his STORY about the last-minute-victory to Blizzcon. No one considered him as one of the best before ST2. His ST2 run was impressive but not dominant. Those wins against INno and herO were very clutch. And he performed after ST2 just like an average korean. Don't forget the fact that zerg was pretty favoured in the last two months. Talking about recent form, herO is the real beast.
On October 24 2017 06:26 p1cass0 wrote: To be honest, the reason Rogue being so hype right now is mostly his STORY about the last-minute-victory to Blizzcon. No one considered him as one of the best before ST2. His ST2 run was impressive but not dominant. Those wins against INno and herO were very clutch. And he performed after ST2 just like an average korean. Don't forget the fact that zerg was pretty favoured in the last two months. Talking about recent form, herO is the real beast.
On October 24 2017 06:26 p1cass0 wrote: To be honest, the reason Rogue being so hype right now is mostly his STORY about the last-minute-victory to Blizzcon. No one considered him as one of the best before ST2. His ST2 run was impressive but not dominant. Those wins against INno and herO were very clutch. And he performed after ST2 just like an average korean. Don't forget the fact that zerg was pretty favoured in the last two months. Talking about recent form, herO is the real beast.
I considered him to be one of the best before ST2.
His recent performances in premier tournaments: IEM Shanghai- Win GSL- Lost 2-3 in the Ro8 SSL Challenge- 4th though he played like he didn't care. (not surprising that he focused on other tournaments that granted him 2017 WCS points rather than potential points if he gets to premier in 2018)
Had he played in GSL vs The World, I'd have ranked him as #1 and Innovation as #2 going in since it was right after IEM Shanghai.
That was at least in the discussion of top form over the last few months.
In current offline form Rogue is simply better than stats, he has won 2 of the last 4 recent offline tournaments beating hero, innovation, dark. He might have lost recent head to head vs stats but this is a power ranking head to heads can't be taken as the only relevant thing.
As for recent online results I don't think anyone who is qualified for blizzcon is playing their best at the moment probably more important to keep your powder dry.
On October 24 2017 08:03 Snarosc wrote: I can already see Innovation being #1 just for the sake of Innovation being Innovation. This terran fanboyism is becoming ridiculous at this point.
Just looking at Inno's last 10 matches : 5W - 5L
2 Loss against Stats 1 Loss against herO 1 Loss against aLive 1 Loss against TY
5 wins against :
Solar Trap Creator aLive Bunny.
Losing against the Top, winning against the mids.
WOW... The definition of peaking... GOAT.
..............
1. This Blizzcon PR, like every other PR, measures current form. Therefore, it completely disregards any results older than a few months. 2. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the most achievements across their career lifetime. Therefore, it completely disregards current form. 3. Every single one of the 10 matches you cited was played online, during the time immediately preceding Blizzcon. Online tourneys are an unreliable indicator of form in the best of times, and right before Blizzcon is about as far from that as could possibly be.
Welding three different measures of three separate things into the most poorly-supported attack on the alleged bias of TL writers I have ever had the misfortune to read.........truly, I am impressed. It takes real work to craft an argument so utterly wrong in every aspect imaginable.
Oh, and the accusation of "Terran fanboyism" took the cake. That level of hypocritical irony is usually reserved for Alex Jones and his ilk.
Thank you. Mondays can always use a good long laugh.
On October 24 2017 08:03 Snarosc wrote: I can already see Innovation being #1 just for the sake of Innovation being Innovation. This terran fanboyism is becoming ridiculous at this point.
Just looking at Inno's last 10 matches : 5W - 5L
2 Loss against Stats 1 Loss against herO 1 Loss against aLive 1 Loss against TY
5 wins against :
Solar Trap Creator aLive Bunny.
Losing against the Top, winning against the mids.
WOW... The definition of peaking... GOAT.
..............
1. This Blizzcon PR, like every other PR, measures current form. Therefore, it completely disregards any results older than a few months. 2. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the most achievements across their career lifetime. Therefore, it completely disregards current form. 3. Every single one of the 10 matches you cited was played online, during the time immediately preceding Blizzcon. Online tourneys are an unreliable indicator of form in the best of times, and right before Blizzcon is about as far from that as could possibly be.
Welding three different measures of three separate things into the most poorly-supported attack on the alleged bias of TL writers I have ever had the misfortune to read.........truly, I am impressed. It takes real work to craft an argument so utterly wrong in every aspect imaginable.
Oh, and the accusation of "Terran fanboyism" took the cake. That level of hypocritical irony is usually reserved for Alex Jones and his ilk.
Thank you. Mondays can always use a good long laugh.
1) Funny, what a familiar sound, again tickling my ears : "online results don't matter".... when it serves your point. Just one little problem on this one : we're just a few days before Blizzcon, 3 days actually, aaaand the last offline tournament was about a month ago (No no, ok ... I admit it.. ST2 was only 23 days ago). Best indicator to measure "current form" right ? We all know nothing changes in a month of SC2.
But anyway, let's forget about online results for a second, as you wish :
Stats won Starleague.. Literally a month ago, dominating the tournament from start to finish. When at the same time Innovation ended up 5th, not even in the playoffs, and Rogue, well... he barely made it out of Challenge with a 2-3 score in 4th place. Man, to qualify being 4th in a 6 people group, felt like watching Portugal playing Football right there.
Anyway, a week before that, Innovation won GSL... Finishing 2nd in Ro16 group stage, Winning 3-2 in Ro8 and 4-3 in semis as well as in Finals, ending up as one, if not the least dominant GSL champion of any season we've ever had. (Oh btw Stats only finished 3rd/4th of that very same tournament)
Now, the last tournament, ST2, happened one week after SSL, and saw Rogue taking the tournament in his first result in over 3 months time (basically off the radar before that).
... I mean, looking at these results, What a fool am I to even argue that Stats shouldn't be below Rogue & Innovation.
But hey, I just forgot who I was talking to :
"Lmao at all the raging Stats fanboys. Blizzcon starts in a few days and your favorite player can demonstrate exactly where he belongs in the PR. PRs measure current form, and Stats peaked around March."
"Ayyyy go for it. I want to feast on Stats-fanboy salt and tears."
.. Is .. Is that you just... hours ago on this very same thread ? Oh man, "Mondays can always use a good long laugh". Indeed.
On October 24 2017 08:03 Snarosc wrote: I can already see Innovation being #1 just for the sake of Innovation being Innovation. This terran fanboyism is becoming ridiculous at this point.
Just looking at Inno's last 10 matches : 5W - 5L
2 Loss against Stats 1 Loss against herO 1 Loss against aLive 1 Loss against TY
5 wins against :
Solar Trap Creator aLive Bunny.
Losing against the Top, winning against the mids.
WOW... The definition of peaking... GOAT.
..............
1. This Blizzcon PR, like every other PR, measures current form. Therefore, it completely disregards any results older than a few months. 2. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the most achievements across their career lifetime. Therefore, it completely disregards current form. 3. Every single one of the 10 matches you cited was played online, during the time immediately preceding Blizzcon. Online tourneys are an unreliable indicator of form in the best of times, and right before Blizzcon is about as far from that as could possibly be.
Welding three different measures of three separate things into the most poorly-supported attack on the alleged bias of TL writers I have ever had the misfortune to read.........truly, I am impressed. It takes real work to craft an argument so utterly wrong in every aspect imaginable.
Oh, and the accusation of "Terran fanboyism" took the cake. That level of hypocritical irony is usually reserved for Alex Jones and his ilk.
Thank you. Mondays can always use a good long laugh.
1) Funny, what a familiar sound, again tickling my ears : "online results don't matter".... when it serves your point. Just one little problem on this one : we're just a few days before Blizzcon, 3 days actually, aaaand the last offline tournament was about a month ago (No no, ok ... I admit it.. ST2 was only 23 days ago). Best indicator to measure "current form" right ? We all know nothing changes in a month of SC2.
But anyway, let's forget about online results for a second, as you wish :
Stats won Starleague.. Literally a month ago, dominating the tournament from start to finish. When at the same time Innovation ended up 5th, not even in the playoffs, and Rogue, well... he barely made it out of Challenge with a 2-3 score in 4th place. Man, to qualify being 4th in a 6 people group, felt like watching Portugal playing Football right there.
Anyway, a week before that, Innovation won GSL... Finishing 2nd in Ro16 group stage, Winning 3-2 in Ro8 and 4-3 in semis as well as in Finals, ending up as one, if not the least dominant GSL champion of any season we've ever had. (Oh btw Stats only finished 3rd/4th of that very same tournament)
Now, the last tournament, ST2, happened one week after SSL, and saw Rogue taking the tournament in his first result in over 3 months time (basically off the radar before that).
... I mean, looking at these results, What a fool am I to even argue that Stats shouldn't be below Rogue & Innovation.
But hey, I just forgot who I was talking to :
"Lmao at all the raging Stats fanboys. Blizzcon starts in a few days and your favorite player can demonstrate exactly where he belongs in the PR. PRs measure current form, and Stats peaked around March."
"Ayyyy go for it. I want to feast on Stats-fanboy salt and tears."
.. Is .. Is that you just... hours ago on this very same thread ? Oh man, "Mondays can always use a good long laugh". Indeed.
Stats won the SSL finals 4-3. That's not dominating.
On October 24 2017 08:03 Snarosc wrote: I can already see Innovation being #1 just for the sake of Innovation being Innovation. This terran fanboyism is becoming ridiculous at this point.
Just looking at Inno's last 10 matches : 5W - 5L
2 Loss against Stats 1 Loss against herO 1 Loss against aLive 1 Loss against TY
5 wins against :
Solar Trap Creator aLive Bunny.
Losing against the Top, winning against the mids.
WOW... The definition of peaking... GOAT.
..............
1. This Blizzcon PR, like every other PR, measures current form. Therefore, it completely disregards any results older than a few months. 2. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the most achievements across their career lifetime. Therefore, it completely disregards current form. 3. Every single one of the 10 matches you cited was played online, during the time immediately preceding Blizzcon. Online tourneys are an unreliable indicator of form in the best of times, and right before Blizzcon is about as far from that as could possibly be.
Welding three different measures of three separate things into the most poorly-supported attack on the alleged bias of TL writers I have ever had the misfortune to read.........truly, I am impressed. It takes real work to craft an argument so utterly wrong in every aspect imaginable.
Oh, and the accusation of "Terran fanboyism" took the cake. That level of hypocritical irony is usually reserved for Alex Jones and his ilk.
Thank you. Mondays can always use a good long laugh.
1) Funny, what a familiar sound, again tickling my ears : "online results don't matter".... when it serves your point. Just one little problem on this one : we're just a few days before Blizzcon, 3 days actually, aaaand the last offline tournament was about a month ago (No no, ok ... I admit it.. ST2 was only 23 days ago). Best indicator to measure "current form" right ? We all know nothing changes in a month of SC2.
But anyway, let's forget about online results for a second, as you wish :
Stats won Starleague.. Literally a month ago, dominating the tournament from start to finish. When at the same time Innovation ended up 5th, not even in the playoffs, and Rogue, well... he barely made it out of Challenge with a 2-3 score in 4th place. Man, to qualify being 4th in a 6 people group, felt like watching Portugal playing Football right there.
Anyway, a week before that, Innovation won GSL... Finishing 2nd in Ro16 group stage, Winning 3-2 in Ro8 and 4-3 in semis as well as in Finals, ending up as one, if not the least dominant GSL champion of any season we've ever had. (Oh btw Stats only finished 3rd/4th of that very same tournament)
Now, the last tournament, ST2, happened one week after SSL, and saw Rogue taking the tournament in his first result in over 3 months time (basically off the radar before that).
... I mean, looking at these results, What a fool am I to even argue that Stats shouldn't be below Rogue & Innovation.
But hey, I just forgot who I was talking to :
"Lmao at all the raging Stats fanboys. Blizzcon starts in a few days and your favorite player can demonstrate exactly where he belongs in the PR. PRs measure current form, and Stats peaked around March."
"Ayyyy go for it. I want to feast on Stats-fanboy salt and tears."
.. Is .. Is that you just... hours ago on this very same thread ? Oh man, "Mondays can always use a good long laugh". Indeed.
First of all, thanks for addressing all my points. Your comprehensive reply about conflating current form with lifetime achievement was most enlightening.....oh wait. Well, I guess I shouldn't have expected anything more from you.
Now to address your own "points:"
1. "Funny, what a familiar sound, again tickling my ears : "online results don't matter".... when it serves your point."
Online results do matter. They just matter less than offline ones. In every scenario. That's my stance, and has always been my stance. Just because you like to use self-serving results doesn't mean everyone else stoops to the same lows. Go on, show me a single post where I ever claimed that online results matter more than offline. I'll wait. And laugh.
2. "Best indicator to measure "current form" right ? We all know nothing changes in a month of SC2."
Certainly form can and does change in a month. We just don't have any way of reliably measuring that change right now. That's what Blizzcon is for, yknow the big offline tournament coming in a few days. You may have heard of it. In the meantime, we have to predict with what offline results we have, suboptimal though they may be. Imagine that, using big offline tournament results to predict a big offline tournament. Revolutionary, I know.
3. Some listing of offline results that appears to be accurate, though presented in a blatantly biased manner. Not that I'd expect any better from you.
4. "... I mean, looking at these results, What a fool am I to even argue that Stats shouldn't be below Rogue & Innovation."
Nice shifting the goalposts. If you can't win the argument, just change the subject! It works for Donald Trump, right? Your original post made a grand total of 0 mentions of Rogue. It mentioned Stats only in the context of Inno's online matches, nothing to do with Stats's ranking in this PR. It focused completely on Inno, and why Inno somehow would only be #1 due to "Terran fanboyism," citing some recent online results as evidence for slumping. Anytime you want to address the original discussion is fine. Knowing you, I won't hold my breath.
At least you are honest about admitting that you are a fool, though. I appreciate that.
4. "But hey, I just forgot who I was talking to :"
Somebody who isn't as moronically biased as you? Yeah, I suppose you did forget that.
5. ".. Is .. Is that you just... hours ago on this very same thread ? Oh man, "Mondays can always use a good long laugh". Indeed."
Actually, Stats is one of my favorite players. I'm a huge fan of his Rain-esque defensive macro style. Unlike you, I don't allow that favoritism of the player, or his race, to bleed over into assessing how well he is actually playing. It's called rationality, you might want to try it sometime.
All in all, I have to say that you continue to impress. It's been so long since I encountered such a sorry excuse for a post here on TL. I daresay your post would fit right in with Bnet rantings. Or even, just maybe, Twitch chat?
Do please try again, it's so very entertaining to read what you have to say. Though, I've seen more than enough of your Twitch chat ravings about how everything and everyone under the sun is somehow conspiring against Protoss to know how this ends. I know it must be terribly difficult to construct an argument longer than a sentence fragment, and without even any emotes no less. But please, continue.
On October 24 2017 13:30 Phredxor wrote: What a swell thread.
I'd probably have Stats at #2 myself but i think the top 3 are more or less interchangeable.
I'd say that even with herO and Dark not having the same results in a similar time period, I think 1-2 could be any of Stats, Rogue, or INnoVation, and 3-5 could be any of herO and Dark and the previously mentioned trio. Of course, Dark definitely looks less scary after his loss in ST2, but with his close losses to both Stats and INnoVation, he's up there in the top 5.
Even though the Master's Coliseum was an online tournament, it was still worth 10K. But when combined with his results in ST2, herO beat Dark, INnoVation, Rogue, and soO in a tournament within the last three weeks. The Master's Coliseum was online, but a 10K prizepool is nothing to dismiss so easily. It's not like the Ting Open 4, where Neeb offraced against Scarlett in the winner's finals.
I think the top Koreans are incredibly close with TY and soO within shouting distance and GuMiho calling from a block or two away.
On October 24 2017 13:30 Phredxor wrote: What a swell thread.
I'd probably have Stats at #2 myself but i think the top 3 are more or less interchangeable.
I'd say that even with herO and Dark not having the same results in a similar time period, I think 1-2 could be any of Stats, Rogue, or INnoVation, and 3-5 could be any of herO and Dark and the previously mentioned trio. Of course, Dark definitely looks less scary after his loss in ST2, but with his close losses to both Stats and INnoVation, he's up there in the top 5.
Even though the Master's Coliseum was an online tournament, it was still worth 10K. But when combined with his results in ST2, herO beat Dark, INnoVation, Rogue, and soO in a tournament within the last three weeks. The Master's Coliseum was online, but a 10K prizepool is nothing to dismiss so easily. It's not like the Ting Open 4, where Neeb offraced against Scarlett in the winner's finals.
I think the top Koreans are incredibly close with TY and soO within shouting distance and GuMiho calling from a block or two away.
Gumiho used to just shout louder, until that upjumped nouveau riche kid Neeb bought up the empty lot and built a new house there.
I think the joke is not that powerrank should be based on current form(should be big part of it) but that stats’ current form is gauged based on his ST2 and master of coliseum’s results.
Name me one reason that stats would use his real strategy and build in those two tournaments. He didn’t need the points. Not starleague titles to win and the prize combined wouldnt beat winning one round at blizzcon, so why risk leaking real builds for opponents to study. It was in his best interest to play standard or fake builds and gave out as little information as possible. If you watched his ST2 game, you know what I mean. OTOH, players like hero is known to perform well at this kind of low stake tournaments(stakes are high for rogue though in ST2) By the same token, Rogue’s result in master’s coliseum should weigh very little in powerrank. Same goes for innovation (he had reserve in losing to Rogue and was almost intentionally not defending oracles in his TVP in master of coliseum). For Rogue, all that we knew was he was giving it all in ST2, and GSL S3, since he needed every point he could get.
The most recent data points you should use for players like Stats and inno are GSL s3 and SSL s2 because they compete for starleague championships(prestige and legacy) and are saving it for blizzcon(high prize pool and big stage). So to me, rogue’s current form while impressive(winning a tournament where exactly 4 players really cared so much about), is less so than Stats and Inno. Let alone the overall result. It is easy to say Stats is just a consistent good player. LOL, the guy peaked all year and had the luxury to cruise in small stages. Rogue/Dark for #3/4 is a toss up for me. I view Dark’s loss vs all-out Inno in GSL more impressive(Dark dictated the games) than Rogue winning vs a lousy Inno who was experimenting builds(again if you look at actual game content you know what I mean here) in ST2.
The GSL match between Stats and Rogue is worth watching just as a Starcraft fan. It is epic!
I think it is retarded to discount a match just because it was close. The money difference between 1st and 2nd place in Anaheim is $140,000! Close does not mean shit it is who wins! Who wants to lose Premier league by one goal or the super bowl by a point or the world series by a run? You still lost!
I'm not a Stats fan boy as one poster calls some of us. I'm certainly not anti Rogue. What you have in that match is a cool collected player in Stats vs a player who thought that losing would be the end of his Blizzcon chances. Rogue was emotional in that match.
Now Rogue does have a history of playing well at Blizzcon. He made the semi finals in 2015. He beat Maru 3-0 and then beat Hydra 3-2 before getting spanked by sOs 3-0 in the semi final.
On October 24 2017 04:45 Pandain wrote: Rogue looked craaaaazy good against the absolute best players in a high stakes tournament where his blizzcon chances were on the line.
Rogue played well in ST2 no doubt about it. High stake tournaments? No. Where his blizzcon chances were on the line? Ok maybe stake were high for him, sos, maru and classic. The list ends there, sorry aLive. Rewatch the games without listening to casters’ hypes (“best day in sc2’s history” on ST2’s last day by tastosis, are you kidding me?). I saw Rogue played really well against an Inno who was experimenting and hiding builds (look at how different his builds were in GSL semi/finals when he wa taking his opponents seriously).
He also looked good vs hero who usually peaks in a $10k tournament so I will give you that.
On October 24 2017 04:45 Pandain wrote: And I'm , for better or worse, ignoring most results between super tournament and blizzcon. They are unquestionably suspect in their validity since people are preparing their real and final builds for blizzcon.
What made you so convinced in the validity of results by players not named Rogue, sOs, Classic, and Maru in ST2?
On October 24 2017 04:45 Pandain wrote: Rogue looked craaaaazy good against the absolute best players in a high stakes tournament where his blizzcon chances were on the line.
Rogue played well in ST2 no doubt about it. High stake tournaments? No. Where his blizzcon chances were on the line? Ok maybe stake were high for him, sos, maru and classic. The list ends there, sorry aLive. Rewatch the games without listening to casters’ hypes (“best day in sc2’s history” on ST2’s last day by tastosis, are you kidding me?). I saw Rogue played really well against an Inno who was experimenting and hiding builds (look at how different his builds were in GSL semi/finals when he wa taking his opponents seriously).
He also looked good vs hero who usually peaks in a $10k tournament so I will give you that.
On October 24 2017 04:45 Pandain wrote: And I'm , for better or worse, ignoring most results between super tournament and blizzcon. They are unquestionably suspect in their validity since people are preparing their real and final builds for blizzcon.
What made you so convinced in the validity of results by players not named Rogue, sOs, Classic, and Maru in ST2?
seems like you are making excuses, no one would give up a chance of victory in a GSL even a super tournament just to hide builds for a tournament 1 month away.
On October 24 2017 04:45 Pandain wrote: Rogue looked craaaaazy good against the absolute best players in a high stakes tournament where his blizzcon chances were on the line.
Rogue played well in ST2 no doubt about it. High stake tournaments? No. Where his blizzcon chances were on the line? Ok maybe stake were high for him, sos, maru and classic. The list ends there, sorry aLive. Rewatch the games without listening to casters’ hypes (“best day in sc2’s history” on ST2’s last day by tastosis, are you kidding me?). I saw Rogue played really well against an Inno who was experimenting and hiding builds (look at how different his builds were in GSL semi/finals when he wa taking his opponents seriously).
He also looked good vs hero who usually peaks in a $10k tournament so I will give you that.
On October 24 2017 04:45 Pandain wrote: And I'm , for better or worse, ignoring most results between super tournament and blizzcon. They are unquestionably suspect in their validity since people are preparing their real and final builds for blizzcon.
What made you so convinced in the validity of results by players not named Rogue, sOs, Classic, and Maru in ST2?
seems like you are making excuses, no one would give up a chance of victory in a GSL even a super tournament just to hide builds for a tournament 1 month away.
Seems like you dismiss points as excuses. I know it’s called GSL super tournament but its similarity to GSL ends there. Who would give up a chance of victory in ST2 just for blizzcon? Reread this sentence and tell me you are serious.
But I didn’t answer that question. Stats did and so did Inno. To be fair Rogue played really well that I’n not saying if Stats or Inno played to their full strength they would have won. But it’s clear from actual games that they were experimenting builds. They were executing those builds very seriously, since ST2 was a great practice opportunity for them. But still, I guarantee you they won’t use those builds in Blizzcon(nor did they in GSL S3 vs equal opponents)
Again in Korea, STs are at best on the level of Kespa cups: not nearly as prestigious as starleagues. Hence winning it felt like a consolation for Soo. When it was the last offline tournament before the real deal, its validity as measure of players’ real strength should be taken with a grain of salt to say the least (again not so much for the mentioned 4 players)
Edit: Did I mention players like herO peaks at $10k tournaments and other guys turn it up on big stages? Hint: the reason is not that herO is ‘unlucky’ in his peak timings. Top dogs simply aren’t 100% serious sometimes.
Not saying Rogue isn’t a monster by any means. But the only useful data points for Stats is saying he’s having the best form one could hope for (ok maybe dual star league champs is, but no one ever did that in one season.)
If you take 80% current form and 20% overall achievement Stats still wins by having one of best results any player had in any year and arguably the same recent form. If not, Rogue might as well be rank 1 since the same argument would fail harder for ranking inno above him.
My rant ends with this post. Been lurking on TL for years but this pr is just too ridiculous so I registered to post. Stats gets too little credit for doing so much(being the professor on a team with TY and being ace on a team with zest, somehow still giving westerners the impression that he’s just a hardworking great player, best individual yearly result in history and gets ranked #3 due to not performing as well in tournaments like ST..). Sorry for my bad english. I understand sometimes the ranking like this needs elements of surprise and if that’s the case I fell for it but I had to.
Rogue is probably the best Zerg atm and is in insane form. Reminds me a lot of Soulkey back in 2013 or a 2014 soO, that type of insane Zerg that doesn't let you leave your corner of the map. But I don't think that justifies his ranking above Stats because it is clear that both him and Inno are the two contenders for player of the year due to them being double Starleague champions with consistent form and great results across the board while Rogue just recently started turning heads.
I'd say it mostly comes down to what you value more. Something I would like to point out is that Rogue in relation to the aforementioned two has a clear weakness in his play (historically) and that is somewhat poor strategic decision-making and mentality in a long series, especially in a preparation based tournament. He has a tendancy to try overly risky builds too often per series and fall apart mentally. That is why he was such a monster in PL which is bo1, but never got past the ro8 in a Starleague setting.
I believe that given time to prepare both Stats and Inno would come out on top of Rogue 9/10 times. But since Blizzcon is not a prep based tournament, I would say that their chances are quite equal from the ro4 onwards, but should they meet earlier I would favour Stats/Inno.
The top three really is a toss-up in my eyes. I would prefer Rogue it #3 (due to the reason I just stated) and Stats at #2 but dependig on criteria it could easily be just as likely to have Rogue #1
Sometimes I feel like the language in this article kind of was a bit jumpy? The text is cool, but the comma usage makes me a bit tired, as if you are rapidly switching between accelerating and pumping the brakes of a car.