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While I am happy that the recent design changes are attempting to mix up Terran playstyles and builds, HSC seems to have proven they have not succeeded. I'm really happy that the Protoss redesign seems to be off to a good start, but I would like the same for Terran.
I'd like to get the ball rolling on how to tweak the already-made changes and add new ones. Underneath each is an idea of how to change the unit. Some of the ideas are not great, but I want to give a start.
1. The Raven will either need to be cheaper with its current changes, buildable off of a reactored starport, or redesigned again. It doesn't seem to be worth its cost, especially when you consider you're going to need to have a starport with a tech lab to produce it. - Allow a raven to build autoturrets for a cost?
2. The Ghost needs some kind of ability to give it more punch in the short term. If you open with ghosts, they give you about 30 seconds of cloak. - Give the ghost the ability to plant a bomb that destroys/heavily damages an enemy building?
3. The widow mine should have some advantage to being visible. It is now vulnerable when moving, and vulnerable when recharging. - Widow mine is a detector when unburrowed?
4. Hellion weakness: low dps vs. any armored unit. Hellbat weakness: one of the slowest units in the game. - Give hellbats the ability to stim.
5. Bunker rushing is terrible now. Terran has very low rush potential. - Allow barracks to be built before depot again. Or - Allow each bunker to be upgraded to neosteel frame individually (similar to the way Zerg can upgrade overlords individually) so you can invest in an even heavier bunker.
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Germany132 Posts
Bunker rushing is terrible now. Terran has very low rush potential. - Allow barracks to be built before depot again. Or - Allow each bunker to be upgraded to neosteel frame individually (similar to the way Zerg can upgrade overlords individually) so you can invest in an even heavier bunker.
I like the idea bhind this, but I don't think necessarily that the rush potential is an issue. It's more the limitation on vialble openings. I'd love to see more design trials around the terran opening options. I would love to see how it would turn out if the barracks requirement would be removed from the factory.
I feel that it would be great to have ealier access to mech units. Other than a quick 111s I would not worry about tough all ins, because of the slowed down eco. Opening with hellions right of the bat would compansate for many changes hellions and their counter units received duing the evolution of the game by now.
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Did you by any chance play Command and Conquer: Red Alert 1?
While some of your points are true, I don't think feedback on this forum will ever reach any responsible team over at Blizzard's.
Good luck though~
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The idea of being able to go factory or barracks would realy open up terran's options in the early game. I wish bliz would implement this change.
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The ability to choose to build either factory or barracks after depot would solve a lot of the current issues. - It would positively affect the utility of hellions - It would address the mech opening problem in TvZ so that scouting and responding to roach/ravager isn't such an issue - It would help against the current chonoboosted starport problem in TvP
I have never played Command & Conquer at all! But the strange thing is after 7 years I almost enjoy talking about design as much as playing SC2.
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I think most of the ideas you have are game breaking.
The Widow was broken from the beginning, and is the reason I left the game as a Protoss player. Widow Mine drops weren't a show skill for the Terran player, and could deal game ending damage.
The Hellbat is plenty fast in Hellion mode. Giving it Stim would be game breaking, it'd shred anything light, including workers with ridiculous speed. We want to avoid adding anything with more speed to the game in general, because it lowers reaction times and ends up reducing the opportunities to display skillful gameplay.
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I seen 3 things which would concern me :-
1/ Infestors- this unit cant go live as it is, its bonkers good
2 / Cyclones - Whats the point of this unit , seriously either make it useful or remove it . Was one built in the tournament ?
3/ The Maps - Those maps are stupidly big , Terran is Donald Ducked unless they use medivacs to move their stuff around, which means they are forced to Bio
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For my terran wishlist I wish for one person on the blizz dev team who understands high level bio and mech play and doesn't butcher both at the same time.
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There are 2 fundamental problems with the new Raven. As a pure support unit, it has more similarities to a sentry or ghost than to its counterparts, the Viper and Oracle. While its cost is comparable to both of these units, its utility is dramatically lower. The fact that it requires the Starport and tech lab is a second problem. Imagine if an Oracle required a Robotics Facility or Fleet beacon to produce. Honestly the tech lab/reactor system works much better on Barracks and Factory than it does on the Starport.
The current Raven could be produced from a factory with a tech lab. Multiple flying units come from the Protoss Robotics Facility, so this seems reasonable to me.
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4. Hellion weakness: low dps vs. any armored unit. Hellbat weakness: one of the slowest units in the game. - Give hellbats the ability to stim.
only if they dont get to attack faster cause that would be redonkl
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On November 14 2017 06:13 Shakattak wrote: 4. Hellion weakness: low dps vs. any armored unit. Hellbat weakness: one of the slowest units in the game. - Give hellbats the ability to stim.
only if they dont get to attack faster cause that would be redonkl
Yeah that's reasonable, only a movement speed buff so they move with bio units. This has been the strangest thing about Hellbats ever since they've been introduced, you stim and your marines and marauders run out in front of the units they're supposed have tanking for them!
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If you revert the widow mine change, terran is back against Protoss and at least not too bad against zerg.
The bad, Protoss will open Stargate 95%, 5% robo for a warp prism supported all in, if widow mine is back. The patch was there to make protoss more diverse, which it did, but the cost is obvious, no fear for widow mines means the reintroduction of an insane amount of openings, just like in the time when widow mine made very limited splash damage and terran opened 3 barracks every game in HotS to counter a dozen all ins and still had hard times agains them.
Guess dev can either go the easy way, revert the Widow Mine and diminish the effects of the patch or they can try something else. But honestly, I dont see it, but thats luckily not my job.
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On November 14 2017 06:47 Clonester wrote: If you revert the widow mine change, terran is back against Protoss and at least not too bad against zerg.
The bad, Protoss will open Stargate 95%, 5% robo for a warp prism supported all in, if widow mine is back. The patch was there to make protoss more diverse, which it did, but the cost is obvious, no fear for widow mines means the reintroduction of an insane amount of openings, just like in the time when widow mine made very limited splash damage and terran opened 3 barracks every game in HotS to counter a dozen all ins and still had hard times agains them.
Guess dev can either go the easy way, revert the Widow Mine and diminish the effects of the patch or they can try something else. But honestly, I dont see it, but thats luckily not my job.
That's a good point. I would rather see widow mines reverted to a smaller splash radius and maybe attack more often than to be visible while recharging. Maybe this would help both Terran and Protoss to have multiple opening possibilities in TvP.
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Since they removed cloak from the widow mines until they arm again, possibly reduce the cooldown? They are complete shit in the new patch. At least give some sort of slight buff.
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buff marauders add land turrets
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On November 14 2017 04:09 BronzeKnee wrote: I think most of the ideas you have are game breaking.
The Widow was broken from the beginning, and is the reason I left the game as a Protoss player. Widow Mine drops weren't a show skill for the Terran player, and could deal game ending damage.
Protoss players continuosly whinning about terran ended up getting terran more nerfed in TvZ than in TvP.
Also WM weren't any more broken than any other broken thing in the game, if they wanted WM drops to be less punishing in TvP nerfing the mine into oblivion in TvZ wasn't the correct answer.
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On November 14 2017 04:23 Topdoller wrote: I seen 3 things which would concern me :-
1/ Infestors- this unit cant go live as it is, its bonkers good
2 / Cyclones - Whats the point of this unit , seriously either make it useful or remove it . Was one built in the tournament ?
3/ The Maps - Those maps are stupidly big , Terran is Donald Ducked unless they use medivacs to move their stuff around, which means they are forced to Bio i think cyclones are fine, in TvT they are good early game and they are useful against zerg and protoss all ins, thou the new stalker buff really hurts them vs Protoss
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On November 14 2017 06:20 Ransomstarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2017 06:13 Shakattak wrote: 4. Hellion weakness: low dps vs. any armored unit. Hellbat weakness: one of the slowest units in the game. - Give hellbats the ability to stim.
only if they dont get to attack faster cause that would be redonkl Yeah that's reasonable, only a movement speed buff so they move with bio units. This has been the strangest thing about Hellbats ever since they've been introduced, you stim and your marines and marauders run out in front of the units they're supposed have tanking for them!
Hell Bat speed would be okay, plus stim taking their health down would be an alright trade off. Would make banelings not so bad.
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On November 14 2017 04:09 BronzeKnee wrote: I think most of the ideas you have are game breaking.
The Widow was broken from the beginning, and is the reason I left the game as a Protoss player. Widow Mine drops weren't a show skill for the Terran player, and could deal game ending damage.
The Hellbat is plenty fast in Hellion mode. Giving it Stim would be game breaking, it'd shred anything light, including workers with ridiculous speed. We want to avoid adding anything with more speed to the game in general, because it lowers reaction times and ends up reducing the opportunities to display skillful gameplay.
you could simply build a cannon or two per mineral line
remember this is a fac+port harass, at least tier 2 level it's not so different from terran having to leave a small group of bio at home to handle prisms...why the complaints?
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On November 14 2017 01:54 Zulu23 wrote:Show nested quote +Bunker rushing is terrible now. Terran has very low rush potential. - Allow barracks to be built before depot again. Or - Allow each bunker to be upgraded to neosteel frame individually (similar to the way Zerg can upgrade overlords individually) so you can invest in an even heavier bunker. I like the idea bhind this, but I don't think necessarily that the rush potential is an issue. It's more the limitation on vialble openings. I'd love to see more design trials around the terran opening options. I would love to see how it would turn out if the barracks requirement would be removed from the factory. I feel that it would be great to have ealier access to mech units. Other than a quick 111s I would not worry about tough all ins, because of the slowed down eco. Opening with hellions right of the bat would compansate for many changes hellions and their counter units received duing the evolution of the game by now.
Y'all remember 5 rax reaper? They can't do that because they would have to re tweak the reaper again. proxy rax with reapers would snap early game against everything. Healing reapers and mines? that would be the worst thing ever.
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Citing HSC as evidence of anything other than the fact that the SC2 community loves to drink and Zest is best is outlandish to say the least.
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I'm worried about this patch for terran. At least in the lowest leagues.
The WM becomes useless, Raven will be use only for mech army support, there is no answer to broodlords infestor play in TvZ, no answer to protoss harass in early game. We will see CC first into 3 racks and mass marines play 80% of time in TvP. Already, I m prepared to take these whining by my opponents: " fuck ing terran, you made only same units !" Yeah, it is true we have so many choices.
In HSC, I saw aLive plays without factory ! Just rush liberator with range.
For me, Terran is massively nerfed with this patch. Blizz can't let it in this condition.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On November 14 2017 09:24 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2017 04:09 BronzeKnee wrote: I think most of the ideas you have are game breaking.
The Widow was broken from the beginning, and is the reason I left the game as a Protoss player. Widow Mine drops weren't a show skill for the Terran player, and could deal game ending damage.
Protoss players continuosly whinning about terran ended up getting terran more nerfed in TvZ than in TvP. Also WM weren't any more broken than any other broken thing in the game, if they wanted WM drops to be less punishing in TvP nerfing the mine into oblivion in TvZ wasn't the correct answer. The same applies to the oracle. It's the same idiotic game ending unit.
On November 14 2017 14:06 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2017 04:09 BronzeKnee wrote: I think most of the ideas you have are game breaking.
The Widow was broken from the beginning, and is the reason I left the game as a Protoss player. Widow Mine drops weren't a show skill for the Terran player, and could deal game ending damage.
The Hellbat is plenty fast in Hellion mode. Giving it Stim would be game breaking, it'd shred anything light, including workers with ridiculous speed. We want to avoid adding anything with more speed to the game in general, because it lowers reaction times and ends up reducing the opportunities to display skillful gameplay. you could simply build a cannon or two per mineral line remember this is a fac+port harass, at least tier 2 level it's not so different from terran having to leave a small group of bio at home to handle prisms...why the complaints? Uh, do you realize that 1 cannon vs. hellbats + medevac doesn't do anything? This is really funny to suggest. If we remove heavy turtle Terran options we can safely remove WP (While yes, it's not a problem for the top players, it's a problem on the ladder)
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nukes should be cheaper or have bigger blast radius and cast range
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On November 14 2017 22:14 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: nukes should be cheaper or have bigger blast radius and cast range
Why..? Its meant to be something that is high risk (Because you risk your ghost) For very high damage.. It is already very devastating. There has never been an issue with nukes.
Apart from that however, the issue lies with ghosts more than it does the nuke in my opinion. Ghosts are great units.. in theory, lmao. 3 ghosts can be feedbacked to death before they finish snipe on a high templar and literally, anything cancels snipe in TvZ. Not to mention late game w/ the bank Zergs have if they can make like 7-8 overseers. The only useful thing the ghost can do in TvP is EMP which isn't enough for what its cost is. As for TvZ it is still too difficult to use and how can you EMP burrowed infestors? They don't even reveal when EMP'd.
PS: Ravens don't take away 3 armor from ultralisks because of frenzy
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I would actually like it if the widow mine unburrowed after firing. That would mean a good player could burrow it again really fast to cloak it again. Would be less of a nerf and add some skill to the interaction.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
Just make the mine not auto target workers. Solved. Good players will manually target workers bad won't kill anything, maybe a queen
There you go, Blizzard, I solved it.
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On November 14 2017 22:30 Ryu3600 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2017 22:14 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote: nukes should be cheaper or have bigger blast radius and cast range Why..? Its meant to be something that is high risk (Because you risk your ghost) For very high damage.. It is already very devastating. There has never been an issue with nukes. Apart from that however, the issue lies with ghosts more than it does the nuke in my opinion. Ghosts are great units.. in theory, lmao. 3 ghosts can be feedbacked to death before they finish snipe on a high templar and literally, anything cancels snipe in TvZ. Not to mention late game w/ the bank Zergs have if they can make like 7-8 overseers. The only useful thing the ghost can do in TvP is EMP which isn't enough for what its cost is. As for TvZ it is still too difficult to use and how can you EMP burrowed infestors? They don't even reveal when EMP'd. PS: Ravens don't take away 3 armor from ultralisks because of frenzy
saw alive vs snute at HSC, he used like 50 nukes in 2 games and all wasted except 1 that killed 20 drones, he mainly was trying to nuke spore lines but snute just unburrow them and pull back then burrow at the same spot lol
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Wait for the meta to settle.
-terrans, late 2016
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On November 14 2017 17:41 Sound1 wrote: I'm worried about this patch for terran. At least in the lowest leagues.
The WM becomes useless, Raven will be use only for mech army support, there is no answer to broodlords infestor play in TvZ, no answer to protoss harass in early game. We will see CC first into 3 racks and mass marines play 80% of time in TvP. Already, I m prepared to take these whining by my opponents: " fuck ing terran, you made only same units !" Yeah, it is true we have so many choices.
In HSC, I saw aLive plays without factory ! Just rush liberator with range.
For me, Terran is massively nerfed with this patch. Blizz can't let it in this condition.
Yes. Although I agree with Blizzard overall design goal for this patch they managed to screw over both bio and mech.
This is good time if you enjoy ZvZ and PvP. If not, better wait until the game is emergency patched.
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On November 14 2017 17:41 Sound1 wrote: I'm worried about this patch for terran. At least in the lowest leagues.
The WM becomes useless, Raven will be use only for mech army support, there is no answer to broodlords infestor play in TvZ, no answer to protoss harass in early game. We will see CC first into 3 racks and mass marines play 80% of time in TvP. Already, I m prepared to take these whining by my opponents: " fuck ing terran, you made only same units !" Yeah, it is true we have so many choices.
In HSC, I saw aLive plays without factory ! Just rush liberator with range.
For me, Terran is massively nerfed with this patch. Blizz can't let it in this condition.
As long as you are a korean terran with around 350 apm, you should be fine, buddy. It's ideal to balance the game around 3 outstanding players making it so 70 apm protosses can beat my friends at low masters with 200 apm.
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All I want is one thing: the ability to go lategame as Terran without being an auto-loss in TvP and TvZ.
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On November 15 2017 01:41 ihatevideogames wrote: All I want is one thing: the ability to go lategame as Terran without being an auto-loss in TvP and TvZ.
You need an early game before you can even get to a late game. That early game needs to be able to transition into something that helps you survive or get ahead in the midgame. Then you can address late game but atm TvZ has a terrible mid game and TvP has awful early game so addressing the lategame is a bit hard
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Pure nonsense.
I was fiding strange that terrans weren't whining for a few weeks now, but things are back to normal. Pre patch balance whining, countdown for "mech not viable" threads.
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On November 15 2017 02:07 xTJx wrote: Pure nonsense.
I was fiding strange that terrans weren't whining for a few weeks now, but things are back to normal. Pre patch balance whining, countdown for "mech not viable" threads. Guess you weren't around in the last 3 months.
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Well the tricky part on the patch is Z >> P, and P >> T, but ZvT is kinda ok if (totally ridiculous) infestors aren't involved.
On my wish list, after buffing every gateway unit but nerfing marauder and mine, at least bring back the old marauder, and maybe make an usable mine again. Protoss units are good, but protoss builds just seems too good in the patch (in good hands), probably chronoboost is too strong. Because atm 3 gates blink+obs -> fast third -> charge seems very, very, very strong. 1base proxy oracle hitting at 3'00 is ridiculous too.
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On November 15 2017 01:27 YourFavoriteTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2017 17:41 Sound1 wrote: I'm worried about this patch for terran. At least in the lowest leagues.
The WM becomes useless, Raven will be use only for mech army support, there is no answer to broodlords infestor play in TvZ, no answer to protoss harass in early game. We will see CC first into 3 racks and mass marines play 80% of time in TvP. Already, I m prepared to take these whining by my opponents: " fuck ing terran, you made only same units !" Yeah, it is true we have so many choices.
In HSC, I saw aLive plays without factory ! Just rush liberator with range.
For me, Terran is massively nerfed with this patch. Blizz can't let it in this condition. As long as you are a korean terran with around 350 apm, you should be fine, buddy. It's ideal to balance the game around 3 outstanding players making it so 70 apm protosses can beat my friends at low masters with 200 apm.
This.
I have the horrible feeling that Blizz wants to facilitate the gameplay and tries to make sc2 more attractive but on the other hand, only deals with top world players to balance it. (I think a small goup of players if I understood correctly some casters in HSC)
I know we have two very "different games", if we are master/grand master or if we are in lowest leagues, and i know it is so hard to please all of the players but in this case, the gap of gameplay between terran players in top level and those in lowest league will be too important.
Personnally, I am unable to kite my bio ball like a mad man all game long, or multitasking like a crazy korean if it is the only way to win.
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On November 15 2017 02:07 xTJx wrote: Pure nonsense.
I was fiding strange that terrans weren't whining for a few weeks now, but things are back to normal. Pre patch balance whining, countdown for "mech not viable" threads.
ez to say that when you have nothing to whine about lol
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On November 15 2017 01:27 YourFavoriteTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2017 17:41 Sound1 wrote: I'm worried about this patch for terran. At least in the lowest leagues.
The WM becomes useless, Raven will be use only for mech army support, there is no answer to broodlords infestor play in TvZ, no answer to protoss harass in early game. We will see CC first into 3 racks and mass marines play 80% of time in TvP. Already, I m prepared to take these whining by my opponents: " fuck ing terran, you made only same units !" Yeah, it is true we have so many choices.
In HSC, I saw aLive plays without factory ! Just rush liberator with range.
For me, Terran is massively nerfed with this patch. Blizz can't let it in this condition. As long as you are a korean terran with around 350 apm, you should be fine, buddy. It's ideal to balance the game around 3 outstanding players making it so 70 apm protosses can beat my friends at low masters with 200 apm. APM is not about quality. Stimming all selected marines is 1 APM BTW?
Edit> just to give few examples I got beaten by meching terran with 60 APM, does that means Mech has to be changed? (100+ APM on my side, PvT(yes, I managed to lose against mech )) I am gold terran(offracing, unranked) - I have over 100 APM. I lose to protoss players who just go storm and storm me as I don't know how to split. I am the worse player, they have 50 APM. APM means shit.
A friend of mine in HotS used to spam at the start to 600 APM, that gave him 200+ APM in the end. Does this mean he was so good? (he was master protoss BTW)
From where do we get that the APM is about skill?
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On November 14 2017 23:24 deacon.frost wrote:Just make the mine not auto target workers. Solved. Good players will manually target workers bad won't kill anything, maybe a queen There you go, Blizzard, I solved it.
That seems fine.
I understand protoss players frustration with the WM,but I seriously don't understand the change because it barely changes the strenght of unseen WM drops in TvP but makes them way too weak in TvZ.
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To revert mine change, pick one.
Mines cannot target workers. Mine splash doesnt kill workers. Protoss gets to build observers from nexus.
None of those would be game breaking. If blizzard wants to end frustrating moments, something HAS to be done with mine drops. There is no way they can stay in the game.
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On November 15 2017 05:00 LTCM wrote: To revert mine change, pick one.
Mines cannot target workers. Mine splash doesnt kill workers. Protoss gets to build observers from nexus.
None of those would be game breaking. If blizzard wants to end frustrating moments, something HAS to be done with mine drops. There is no way they can stay in the game. and oracles?
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On November 15 2017 05:09 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2017 05:00 LTCM wrote: To revert mine change, pick one.
Mines cannot target workers. Mine splash doesnt kill workers. Protoss gets to build observers from nexus.
None of those would be game breaking. If blizzard wants to end frustrating moments, something HAS to be done with mine drops. There is no way they can stay in the game. and oracles?
Are getting triple nerfed in one patch.
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"I have noticed that Terran will on occasion erroneously lose games. I have proposed some changes to make sure that never happens again."
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i'm reading this after i quit sc2 a few years ago and all the gimmic changes they are making proves how fked this game is lmao
User was warned for this post
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Siege Tank needs to deal so much damage that it makes zerg/protoss shit their pants.
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On November 15 2017 08:48 usopsama wrote: Siege Tank needs to deal so much damage that it makes zerg/protoss shit their pants.
Agreed. I think the fact that they can't hit air or move while in siege mode is a massive problem that Blizzard needs to address.
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On November 15 2017 05:13 LTCM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2017 05:09 Charoisaur wrote:On November 15 2017 05:00 LTCM wrote: To revert mine change, pick one.
Mines cannot target workers. Mine splash doesnt kill workers. Protoss gets to build observers from nexus.
None of those would be game breaking. If blizzard wants to end frustrating moments, something HAS to be done with mine drops. There is no way they can stay in the game. and oracles? Are getting triple nerfed in one patch.
Ah yes getting an oracle in a base by 2:55, the biggest of nerfs.
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On November 15 2017 09:22 penguinseatsocks wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2017 08:48 usopsama wrote: Siege Tank needs to deal so much damage that it makes zerg/protoss shit their pants. Agreed. I think the fact that they can't hit air or move while in siege mode is a massive problem that Blizzard needs to address. There are far more urgent matters to address than that: When a Terran building is landing, it should kill every unit that is underneath.
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On November 15 2017 15:26 usopsama wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2017 09:22 penguinseatsocks wrote:On November 15 2017 08:48 usopsama wrote: Siege Tank needs to deal so much damage that it makes zerg/protoss shit their pants. Agreed. I think the fact that they can't hit air or move while in siege mode is a massive problem that Blizzard needs to address. There are far more urgent matters to address than that: When a Terran building is landing, it should kill every unit that is underneath.
Not only that, when it lands it needs to send out a shockwave that damages all enemy units and structures...by 50% at least.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On November 15 2017 16:24 AxiomBlurr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2017 15:26 usopsama wrote:On November 15 2017 09:22 penguinseatsocks wrote:On November 15 2017 08:48 usopsama wrote: Siege Tank needs to deal so much damage that it makes zerg/protoss shit their pants. Agreed. I think the fact that they can't hit air or move while in siege mode is a massive problem that Blizzard needs to address. There are far more urgent matters to address than that: When a Terran building is landing, it should kill every unit that is underneath. Not only that, when it lands it needs to send out a shockwave that damages all enemy units and structures...by 50% at least. And by 25 % in the games played by other players!
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On November 15 2017 09:49 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2017 05:13 LTCM wrote:On November 15 2017 05:09 Charoisaur wrote:On November 15 2017 05:00 LTCM wrote: To revert mine change, pick one.
Mines cannot target workers. Mine splash doesnt kill workers. Protoss gets to build observers from nexus.
None of those would be game breaking. If blizzard wants to end frustrating moments, something HAS to be done with mine drops. There is no way they can stay in the game. and oracles? Are getting triple nerfed in one patch. Ah yes getting an oracle in a base by 2:55, the biggest of nerfs.
Loving the sass from this one! :D
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Can we get old marauders back..? :D and possibly have shield batteries healing only 2x faster than medivacs and not 4x.........
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Todays BTSL looks great and well balanced.
Time to adept and pull a Neeb.
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On November 15 2017 09:49 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2017 05:13 LTCM wrote:On November 15 2017 05:09 Charoisaur wrote:On November 15 2017 05:00 LTCM wrote: To revert mine change, pick one.
Mines cannot target workers. Mine splash doesnt kill workers. Protoss gets to build observers from nexus.
None of those would be game breaking. If blizzard wants to end frustrating moments, something HAS to be done with mine drops. There is no way they can stay in the game. and oracles? Are getting triple nerfed in one patch. Ah yes getting an oracle in a base by 2:55, the biggest of nerfs.
haha this so true +1
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The combinaison of : shield batteries being really good at early game defense for 75 mineral insead of a 100/100 unit + stalker's insane buff (3 shots marines and scvs instead of 5 shotting them before) + chronoboost's insane ability to pump out early agression (proxy stargate is now basically always worth it) and saturate bases very fast + zealot charge cost buff now synergizing heavily with stalker buff + the disruptor's change actually being somewhat of a buff + the colossus buff + the idiotic F2 use buffs that allow protoss to F2 amove their whole army with templars, while retaining vision with stationary oracles
Compared to : an extreme mine nerf + a tiny liberator nerf + a semi-pointless cyclone buff(stalker now massacre cyclones) + a costly viking/hellion/thor transform upgrade + a big raven nerf overall + a disputable ghost change
I don't get how the devs suppose that meta is "going to settle" around that. The only thing terrans should wish for is for TvP to be playable.
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On November 16 2017 00:20 JackONeill wrote: The combinaison of : shield batteries being really good at early game defense for 75 mineral insead of a 100/100 unit + stalker's insane buff (3 shots marines and scvs instead of 5 shotting them before) + chronoboost's insane ability to pump out early agression (proxy stargate is now basically always worth it) and saturate bases very fast + zealot charge cost buff now synergizing heavily with stalker buff + the disruptor's change actually being somewhat of a buff + the colossus buff + the idiotic F2 use buffs that allow protoss to F2 amove their whole army with templars, while retaining vision with stationary oracles
Compared to : an extreme mine nerf + a tiny liberator nerf + a semi-pointless cyclone buff(stalker now massacre cyclones) + a costly viking/hellion/thor transform upgrade + a big raven nerf overall + a disputable ghost change
I don't get how the devs suppose that meta is "going to settle" around that. The only thing terrans should wish for is for TvP to be playable.
Wow. A lot of what you just said was wrong..
Also its stationary observers, not oracles, shield batteries are 100 minerals if I am not mistaken, The colossus buff was more for TvZ against LBH and makes them worse vs marauders and better vs marines (Which in this meta you want more marauders than you would marines I feel) Also the zealot charge buff only made them viable. Its rather Stalkers being in sync with zealots due to how well both of the units scale. The raven change is fine, id say the only thing that should be changed is shredder missiles damage. Also the cyclone buff was not pointless. It helps a bit when going vs Oracles or air units like voids. It isn't a huge difference but if its a few marines and a cyclone you'll be able to take down an oracle or voidray down faster than you would before. And my final point protoss yes can F2 amove a bit better but they will still need to set aside hotkeys for their casters. (Sentry, Hightemplar)
I personally think the issue at the moment is the level of scaling between Terran Zerg and Protoss. At the moment Protoss and Zerg can scale really quickly into a stronger high tech game while having the eco lead and controlling the early(protoss) and mid (Zerg) game. Zerg was typically 1 base ahead of T and P but now Toss is also way ahead a base in TvP also. (4:00 third bases with Terrans getting it at 6:00-7:30) Granted Terrans use to get their CC's at 2:25 and 3:45 etc but if you do that now you will just die. Terran right now cannot scale into anything that is useful. Because our stuff all kicks in too slowly or isn't strong enough.
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On November 16 2017 00:52 Ryu3600 wrote: shield batteries are 100 minerals if I am not mistaken.
Its 75
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On November 15 2017 05:00 LTCM wrote: To revert mine change, pick one.
Mines cannot target workers. Mine splash doesnt kill workers. Protoss gets to build observers from nexus.
None of those would be game breaking. If blizzard wants to end frustrating moments, something HAS to be done with mine drops. There is no way they can stay in the game.
Observers from nexus would be very powerfull, the production time cost on the TiVo for obs is one of the things that limits there numbers early, having them on nexus would give Protoss as much vision as Zerg has with overlords....
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I wish they revert back mine changes and ghost changes. And also that the turret can be constructed withou an e-bay (like Zerg) and maybe that shield battery is nerfed a little.
Also viking would be good with a passive ability like ''if a viking moove in a direction for 2 second, his speed will double" so they can moove faster while still being slow in microgestion-fights
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On November 16 2017 00:52 Ryu3600 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2017 00:20 JackONeill wrote: The combinaison of : shield batteries being really good at early game defense for 75 mineral insead of a 100/100 unit + stalker's insane buff (3 shots marines and scvs instead of 5 shotting them before) + chronoboost's insane ability to pump out early agression (proxy stargate is now basically always worth it) and saturate bases very fast + zealot charge cost buff now synergizing heavily with stalker buff + the disruptor's change actually being somewhat of a buff + the colossus buff + the idiotic F2 use buffs that allow protoss to F2 amove their whole army with templars, while retaining vision with stationary oracles
Compared to : an extreme mine nerf + a tiny liberator nerf + a semi-pointless cyclone buff(stalker now massacre cyclones) + a costly viking/hellion/thor transform upgrade + a big raven nerf overall + a disputable ghost change
I don't get how the devs suppose that meta is "going to settle" around that. The only thing terrans should wish for is for TvP to be playable. Wow. A lot of what you just said was wrong.. Also its stationary observers, not oracles, shield batteries are 100 minerals if I am not mistaken, The colossus buff was more for TvZ against LBH and makes them worse vs marauders and better vs marines (Which in this meta you want more marauders than you would marines I feel) Also the zealot charge buff only made them viable. Its rather Stalkers being in sync with zealots due to how well both of the units scale. The raven change is fine, id say the only thing that should be changed is shredder missiles damage. Also the cyclone buff was not pointless. It helps a bit when going vs Oracles or air units like voids. It isn't a huge difference but if its a few marines and a cyclone you'll be able to take down an oracle or voidray down faster than you would before. And my final point protoss yes can F2 amove a bit better but they will still need to set aside hotkeys for their casters. (Sentry, Hightemplar)
Well played, starting a responce post by "you're saying wrong stuff" and then immediatly begin ... saying wrong stuff.
- the battery is 75 minerals, not 100 - the colossus buff being targetted at PvZ won't make it inefficient in PvT (more efficient collossi means less marines which means more efficient zealots for instance) - "Also the zealot charge buff only made them viable. Its rather Stalkers being in sync with zealots due to how well both of the units scale" : so... the zealot charge buff synergizes well with the new stalker. Which is what i'm stating. Way to make a counterpoint buddy - "The raven change is fine, id say the only thing that should be changed is shredder missiles damage" this statement is completely void of argumentation, so once again, that's not a counter point. The med drone is underwhelming and the removal of the PDD makes mech extremely weak against tempests, and the shredder missile is a massive nerf over the LOTV seeker : those changes are a raven nerf. - the cyclone change only helps against air stuff, but gets destroyed against stalkers. So you can't open cyclone-based mech against protoss anymore, and they get extremely useless later in the game (chargelots and immortals make them basically dead weight). So once again, you're not invalidating my point about the fact that this buff is "semi-useless" - nope, most protosses don't set hotkeys for their sentries and i don't expect them to hotkey their amovable templars. Getting the power of the storm without the mechanical downside of needing to micromanage your casters so they don't run to their deaths is a massive buff to deathbally F2 amoves.
My bad for responding in length to such an uninformed post, but dumbing down the matters at hand and being dishonnest about very obvious buffs isn't helping the discussion.
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On November 16 2017 01:49 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2017 00:52 Ryu3600 wrote:On November 16 2017 00:20 JackONeill wrote: The combinaison of : shield batteries being really good at early game defense for 75 mineral insead of a 100/100 unit + stalker's insane buff (3 shots marines and scvs instead of 5 shotting them before) + chronoboost's insane ability to pump out early agression (proxy stargate is now basically always worth it) and saturate bases very fast + zealot charge cost buff now synergizing heavily with stalker buff + the disruptor's change actually being somewhat of a buff + the colossus buff + the idiotic F2 use buffs that allow protoss to F2 amove their whole army with templars, while retaining vision with stationary oracles
Compared to : an extreme mine nerf + a tiny liberator nerf + a semi-pointless cyclone buff(stalker now massacre cyclones) + a costly viking/hellion/thor transform upgrade + a big raven nerf overall + a disputable ghost change
I don't get how the devs suppose that meta is "going to settle" around that. The only thing terrans should wish for is for TvP to be playable. Wow. A lot of what you just said was wrong.. Also its stationary observers, not oracles, shield batteries are 100 minerals if I am not mistaken, The colossus buff was more for TvZ against LBH and makes them worse vs marauders and better vs marines (Which in this meta you want more marauders than you would marines I feel) Also the zealot charge buff only made them viable. Its rather Stalkers being in sync with zealots due to how well both of the units scale. The raven change is fine, id say the only thing that should be changed is shredder missiles damage. Also the cyclone buff was not pointless. It helps a bit when going vs Oracles or air units like voids. It isn't a huge difference but if its a few marines and a cyclone you'll be able to take down an oracle or voidray down faster than you would before. And my final point protoss yes can F2 amove a bit better but they will still need to set aside hotkeys for their casters. (Sentry, Hightemplar) Well played, starting a responce post by "you're saying wrong stuff" and then immediatly begin ... saying wrong stuff. - the battery is 75 minerals, not 100 - the colossus buff being targetted at PvZ won't make it inefficient in PvT (more efficient collossi means less marines which means more efficient zealots for instance) - "Also the zealot charge buff only made them viable. Its rather Stalkers being in sync with zealots due to how well both of the units scale" : so... the zealot charge buff synergizes well with the new stalker. Which is what i'm stating. Way to make a counterpoint buddy - "The raven change is fine, id say the only thing that should be changed is shredder missiles damage" this statement is completely void of argumentation, so once again, that's not a counter point. The med drone is underwhelming and the removal of the PDD makes mech extremely weak against tempests, and the shredder missile is a massive nerf over the LOTV seeker : those changes are a raven nerf. - the cyclone change only helps against air stuff, but gets destroyed against stalkers. So you can't open cyclone-based mech against protoss anymore, and they get extremely useless later in the game (chargelots and immortals make them basically dead weight). So once again, you're not invalidating my point about the fact that this buff is "semi-useless" - nope, most protosses don't set hotkeys for their sentries and i don't expect them to hotkey their amovable templars. Getting the power of the storm without the mechanical downside of needing to micromanage your casters so they don't run to their deaths is a massive buff to deathbally F2 amoves. My bad for responding in length to such an uninformed post, but dumbing down the matters at hand and being dishonnest about very obvious buffs isn't helping the discussion.
There was a recent series between Zest and TY where TY opened Raven cyclone. The Raven drone kept the cyclones alive quite well in a small skirmish on abbyssal reef vs some stalkers and immortals.TY went mech this game and while he did not right away open cyclone, he still made a handful of them and beat Zest. Also the cyclones issue previously was that it sucked vs air granted and that was what got addressed. Yes it is not "great" vs stalkers but it is not useless either I still think it does good early game. If you're still making cyclones by the time they have enough stalkers to destroys your Cyclone's in one shot I think you would be doing something wrong. I think it is more effective to transition into Siege tanks by then or have something like a bunker out (defensively) or widows/libs. I do agree though re-reading that PDD was a huge loss for mech, but I think the LOTV seeker missile promoted bad gameplay. It promoted a lot of Cancer styles that only players like: Avilo, RuFF, TheRiddler, and Ketroc would like. Granted to each their own but the majority of players did not find that fun to play vs. I actually think the new raven is a good change when going vs mech as bio. It gives you a chance to make the mech army very vulnerable allowing a bio army to pounce on it. I think the only worthless ability was the scrambler. It should be stronger or have some sort of DoT or added effect rather than just disabling a unit.
PS: I checked you were right about batteries they are infact 75 mins. That is my bad
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