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On December 15 2017 03:50 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 02:41 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 15 2017 00:33 Boggyb wrote:On December 14 2017 13:38 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 14 2017 13:25 Boggyb wrote:On December 14 2017 13:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 14 2017 13:07 Boggyb wrote:On December 14 2017 12:41 DieuCure wrote: PandaBearMe going to IEM PyeongChang instead of Neeb / Major, and you say it cant be worse? I said it can't be made better. It could be much worse. If they were to redo the qualifiers, that would be an abomination of several magnitudes worse than the DQ's. Why would that be worse? Because you'd be punishing players for things outside of their control in the name of making up for punishing players for things outside of their control. Two wrongs don't make a right. The original wrong can at least be justified by someone making a poor decision in a tough situation. This would be a wrong made with time and discussion. You'd be declaring the initial qualifiers invalid due to being mismanaged. Sure it sucks for Cham and PandaBearMe who won the invalid qualifier, but at least new qualifiers give everyone a fair shot. It's a much better solution than leaving things as is (though I'm not sure how easy it is logistically). If the rules allowed the person who made the decision to DQ the players to make that decision, then the qualifiers were NOT mismanaged. The better decision on the part of that individual would have been to pursue it up the chain of command and maybe even postpone the qualifier if things couldn't be resolved quickly, but once the decision was made to DQ the players and have the qualifiers, that's what they have to stand behind. You can't give people authority to make judgment calls then undercut them afterwards if you don't like the decisions they made. Why should IEM be beholden to a shitty decision an admin made when they ultimately have the authority to overturn that decision? You 100% can rule that the decision made was incorrect and undermined the qualifier and take steps to correct the mistake. Boxing organizational bodies for example have overruled decisions made my refs before. Besides at the end of the day all we want is an outcome that is fairest to the players and giving everyone another shot is undoubtedly fairer than leaving half the players arbitrarily DQed (assuming that there is a way to accomodate the scheduling). It isn't fair to the players to force certain players to reveal builds and strategies in what they thought were qualifying matches then tell them those don't count. That's more unfair than not letting players play when they have scheduling conflicts that will cause additional accommodations to be made. If they DO hold a redo, they need to DQ SpeCial for making offensive jokes in twitch chat during the ESL stream.
Your conception of fairness is warped. Players maybe revealing a few strategies for matches that don't end up mattering is in no way close to as bad as half the field not getting a chance due to getting disqualified by an overzealous admin. And DQing MajOr for twitch chat humour? Really?
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On December 15 2017 04:16 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 03:50 Boggyb wrote:On December 15 2017 02:41 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 15 2017 00:33 Boggyb wrote:On December 14 2017 13:38 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 14 2017 13:25 Boggyb wrote:On December 14 2017 13:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 14 2017 13:07 Boggyb wrote:On December 14 2017 12:41 DieuCure wrote: PandaBearMe going to IEM PyeongChang instead of Neeb / Major, and you say it cant be worse? I said it can't be made better. It could be much worse. If they were to redo the qualifiers, that would be an abomination of several magnitudes worse than the DQ's. Why would that be worse? Because you'd be punishing players for things outside of their control in the name of making up for punishing players for things outside of their control. Two wrongs don't make a right. The original wrong can at least be justified by someone making a poor decision in a tough situation. This would be a wrong made with time and discussion. You'd be declaring the initial qualifiers invalid due to being mismanaged. Sure it sucks for Cham and PandaBearMe who won the invalid qualifier, but at least new qualifiers give everyone a fair shot. It's a much better solution than leaving things as is (though I'm not sure how easy it is logistically). If the rules allowed the person who made the decision to DQ the players to make that decision, then the qualifiers were NOT mismanaged. The better decision on the part of that individual would have been to pursue it up the chain of command and maybe even postpone the qualifier if things couldn't be resolved quickly, but once the decision was made to DQ the players and have the qualifiers, that's what they have to stand behind. You can't give people authority to make judgment calls then undercut them afterwards if you don't like the decisions they made. Why should IEM be beholden to a shitty decision an admin made when they ultimately have the authority to overturn that decision? You 100% can rule that the decision made was incorrect and undermined the qualifier and take steps to correct the mistake. Boxing organizational bodies for example have overruled decisions made my refs before. Besides at the end of the day all we want is an outcome that is fairest to the players and giving everyone another shot is undoubtedly fairer than leaving half the players arbitrarily DQed (assuming that there is a way to accomodate the scheduling). It isn't fair to the players to force certain players to reveal builds and strategies in what they thought were qualifying matches then tell them those don't count. That's more unfair than not letting players play when they have scheduling conflicts that will cause additional accommodations to be made. If they DO hold a redo, they need to DQ SpeCial for making offensive jokes in twitch chat during the ESL stream. Your conception of fairness is warped. Players maybe revealing a few strategies for matches that don't end up mattering is in no way close to as bad as half the field not getting a chance due to getting disqualified by an overzealous admin. And DQing MajOr for twitch chat humour? Really? Insulting disabled people is not acceptable from a professional or a human being.
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On December 15 2017 04:36 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 04:16 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 15 2017 03:50 Boggyb wrote:On December 15 2017 02:41 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 15 2017 00:33 Boggyb wrote:On December 14 2017 13:38 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 14 2017 13:25 Boggyb wrote:On December 14 2017 13:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 14 2017 13:07 Boggyb wrote:On December 14 2017 12:41 DieuCure wrote: PandaBearMe going to IEM PyeongChang instead of Neeb / Major, and you say it cant be worse? I said it can't be made better. It could be much worse. If they were to redo the qualifiers, that would be an abomination of several magnitudes worse than the DQ's. Why would that be worse? Because you'd be punishing players for things outside of their control in the name of making up for punishing players for things outside of their control. Two wrongs don't make a right. The original wrong can at least be justified by someone making a poor decision in a tough situation. This would be a wrong made with time and discussion. You'd be declaring the initial qualifiers invalid due to being mismanaged. Sure it sucks for Cham and PandaBearMe who won the invalid qualifier, but at least new qualifiers give everyone a fair shot. It's a much better solution than leaving things as is (though I'm not sure how easy it is logistically). If the rules allowed the person who made the decision to DQ the players to make that decision, then the qualifiers were NOT mismanaged. The better decision on the part of that individual would have been to pursue it up the chain of command and maybe even postpone the qualifier if things couldn't be resolved quickly, but once the decision was made to DQ the players and have the qualifiers, that's what they have to stand behind. You can't give people authority to make judgment calls then undercut them afterwards if you don't like the decisions they made. Why should IEM be beholden to a shitty decision an admin made when they ultimately have the authority to overturn that decision? You 100% can rule that the decision made was incorrect and undermined the qualifier and take steps to correct the mistake. Boxing organizational bodies for example have overruled decisions made my refs before. Besides at the end of the day all we want is an outcome that is fairest to the players and giving everyone another shot is undoubtedly fairer than leaving half the players arbitrarily DQed (assuming that there is a way to accomodate the scheduling). It isn't fair to the players to force certain players to reveal builds and strategies in what they thought were qualifying matches then tell them those don't count. That's more unfair than not letting players play when they have scheduling conflicts that will cause additional accommodations to be made. If they DO hold a redo, they need to DQ SpeCial for making offensive jokes in twitch chat during the ESL stream. Your conception of fairness is warped. Players maybe revealing a few strategies for matches that don't end up mattering is in no way close to as bad as half the field not getting a chance due to getting disqualified by an overzealous admin. And DQing MajOr for twitch chat humour? Really? Insulting disabled people is not acceptable from a professional or a human being.
Lodge a complaint with ESL if you feel strongly about it. Either way it isn't too relevant to this thread, or what ESL should do.
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Apollo just tweeted this 5 hours ago
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Really cannot expect anything reasonable from Apollo. Also the situation is stupid and it is hard to imagine any good solution. But still interested in what they come with.
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Situation has been solved and Shaun will most likely announce it tomorrow.
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On December 15 2017 10:20 pHaRSiDE wrote: Situation has been solved and Shaun will most likely announce it tomorrow.
And so we are left in anticipation :o
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On December 15 2017 11:37 Soke wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 10:20 pHaRSiDE wrote: Situation has been solved and Shaun will most likely announce it tomorrow. And so we are left in anticipation :o
Was the only way to calm down the conspiracy theorists unfortunately :-S
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On December 15 2017 12:23 pHaRSiDE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 11:37 Soke wrote:On December 15 2017 10:20 pHaRSiDE wrote: Situation has been solved and Shaun will most likely announce it tomorrow. And so we are left in anticipation :o Was the only way to calm down the conspiracy theorists unfortunately :-S Apollo is a lizard person and you can't convince me otherwise
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On December 15 2017 13:02 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 12:23 pHaRSiDE wrote:On December 15 2017 11:37 Soke wrote:On December 15 2017 10:20 pHaRSiDE wrote: Situation has been solved and Shaun will most likely announce it tomorrow. And so we are left in anticipation :o Was the only way to calm down the conspiracy theorists unfortunately :-S Apollo is a lizard person and you can't convince me otherwise
And how is this whole thing his fault?
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oh guys i LOVE pengwin i joked around with him in germany alot hes such a fun guy but still ^^ having him replace scarlett feels wrong ^^
iem fucked up dates
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On December 15 2017 20:45 kajtarp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2017 13:02 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 15 2017 12:23 pHaRSiDE wrote:On December 15 2017 11:37 Soke wrote:On December 15 2017 10:20 pHaRSiDE wrote: Situation has been solved and Shaun will most likely announce it tomorrow. And so we are left in anticipation :o Was the only way to calm down the conspiracy theorists unfortunately :-S Apollo is a lizard person and you can't convince me otherwise And how is this whole thing his fault? Can you really blame him after this backstage picture of Apollo came out? + Show Spoiler +
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Really cannot expect anything reasonable from Apollo. Also the situation is stupid and it is hard to imagine any good solution. But still interested in what they come with.
That is very true. They made a decision that was justified under the circumstances. It is unfair to two players (most likely Neeb and Special perhaps also Kelazhur) but World is not perfect and schedules are very tight. Now whatever exception they come up with will most likely be unfair to everyone in all regions. Unless they are willing to change the format of IEM - move dates, increase the prize pool, expand the tournament to 32 players etc. which is most unlikely.
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On December 16 2017 00:23 Kafka777 wrote:Show nested quote +Really cannot expect anything reasonable from Apollo. Also the situation is stupid and it is hard to imagine any good solution. But still interested in what they come with. That is very true. They made a decision that was justified under the circumstances. It is unfair to two players (most likely Neeb and Special perhaps also Kelazhur) but World is not perfect and schedules are very tight. Now whatever exception they come up with will most likely be unfair to everyone in all regions. Unless they are willing to change the format of IEM - move dates, increase the prize pool, expand the tournament to 32 players etc. which is most unlikely. Yes, there is no reasonable good solution now. Not for the DQ'd players, not for the qualified players, and primarily not for the tournament, which was supposed to be the small Olympics ... now, the real Olympics will have Alibaba. With their prize pool.
The best solution would be a public apology, acknowledgement of their mistake, firing the person, who did this stupid decision and announcing that he has been fired. It should have been the choice of the players, nobody would be "DQ'd", but a few players would forfeit their spot ...
Therefore, I do not understand the statement that "Situation is solved and we will announce the solution tomorrow".
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China6270 Posts
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sounds like they took the time to resolve the issue as best they could after their mistake, and sounds like supposedly the players are happy too. they also seem to admit the initial situation was unfair on their part. nice
in before (?) someone still finds a way to say this is "still unfair to the other players" and they're a "joke of an organization" or whatever. i swear sometimes even the best internet forums are just breeding grounds for people to get angry about things that don't even affect them personally
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This is interesting, because the players will arrive on like the 5th of February, play the NA qualifier, and then play on the 6th.
It also means NA players in groups C and D.
Good resolution from ESL, though.
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Big surprise. Definitely a good resolution! Wow IEM!
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On December 16 2017 03:04 brickrd wrote: sounds like they took the time to resolve the issue as best they could after their mistake, and sounds like supposedly the players are happy too. they also seem to admit the initial situation was unfair on their part. nice
in before (?) someone still finds a way to say this is "still unfair to the other players" and they're a "joke of an organization" or whatever. i swear sometimes even the best internet forums are just breeding grounds for people to get angry about things that don't even affect them personally
You called it bud, people are now mad that NA has too many spots.
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On December 16 2017 06:32 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2017 03:04 brickrd wrote: sounds like they took the time to resolve the issue as best they could after their mistake, and sounds like supposedly the players are happy too. they also seem to admit the initial situation was unfair on their part. nice
in before (?) someone still finds a way to say this is "still unfair to the other players" and they're a "joke of an organization" or whatever. i swear sometimes even the best internet forums are just breeding grounds for people to get angry about things that don't even affect them personally You called it bud, people are now mad that NA has too many spots. those people can't read and don't seem to realize that the NA qualifier basically just got extended
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