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I prefer round robin to gsl style as well, mostly because we don't see it as often and i like that every player has to play vs every other opponent. Ofc there are problems, but i think you can minimize it through some options like giving money for each win or using the round robin purely for seeding into a big bracket. In general i would hope that tournament organizers experiment a bit with different formats to see what works.
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I'll never forget when NaNiwa pulled probes against Nestea in the 2011 GSL Blizzard cup. They were both already out so the match wasn't going to affect the outcome. Round robin as a format doesn't make sense to me exactly because of the risk of playing pointless matches. Still, I can understand some people wanting to see matchups that wouldn't happen otherwise.
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The very problem of possible odd-number-way-ties makes this format really risky for weekend tourneys. I agree it can be fun, but it is also really demanding on the production. If the only interface between the system and the viewers is a confused Wolf, who can't grasp the branching tree even after several years of casting it, it takes some dedication to follow ...
We discussed extensively that a 4-player RR group can actually be played in such a manner that nobody knowingly plays a meaningless match, but any larger group makes it impossible and let's be honest, 200$ is much less of a motivation than advancing a step in IEM WC. At >4 players it gets hard to follow anyway, so I would probably be in favor of using a modified Swiss or multiple-elimination system. Nobody is gonna understand it, but it really doesn't make that much of a difference at that point.
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RR groups only make sense for very early stages of the tournament ^^
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I think it's fine to have round robin for 6+ players groups, but it's really a pain to have round robin with 4 players groups (for all the reasons already shown in this piece). I wouldn't ever come back to having round robin in tournaments with 4 players groups like Dreamhack or GSL
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GSL format is way better.
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They should bring this back for the GSL ro16 honestly. Do it like the OSL where each group has a match a day
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On February 14 2018 00:28 deacon.frost wrote: While Yugioh running around and screaming from the excitement is a great memory, losing in this way has to hurt much. I don't like RR. For anyone interested in seeing Yugioh's reaction: + Show Spoiler +
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Round robin sure has flaws, like pointless matches or un-even stakes (one guaranteed to go through, other not), but they are mostly okay if the group has 6 players or more like in IEM Katowice. Most people only remember the horror stories from DH or early GSL groups which had 4 players. Remember in DH Winter 2010 when Naama, Socke and Bischu were tied and when the ties continued, they had a coin toss, and Bischu dropped while Socke and Naama continued, and the latter later won the tournament. Bischu got another tournament made just for him after the event though, DH's Coin toss tournament.
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Man, now I feel bad for Lucifron again .
Still, I can't help but be excited for the round robin format at Katowice. I think it's perfect in a group stage like that with more than 4 players.
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Why do you guys think that 4-player groups are especially bad? The possibility to create a 3-way exists in any group size.
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On February 14 2018 05:16 opisska wrote: Why do you guys think that 4-player groups are especially bad? The possibility to create a 3-way exists in any group size. Sure, the possibility exists. But with bigger groups, more players influence the score and therefore there's more chances to avoid a complete tie. In smaller groups (4 or even 3 like the Code A tiebreaker in the article) ties happen pretty quick between players that are about evenly matched.
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If was in my hand To solve the threeway tie i would have schedule FFA among all 3 of them. The Winer advances and the other 2 face each other in a 1v1.
Yeah the FFA its unfair and 2 players can ally against the third but its more fair than a Draw.
I would have loved to follow the scene when that triple tie happend.
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Nice! I got into SC2 fairly late and haven't yet seen a round robin format.
It sounds more appealing overall for sure as a spectator to see such a variety of matchups and theoretically should reward the most well rounded player.
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Can you not just use h2h score to determine who passes after map score?
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On February 14 2018 07:15 Fango wrote: Can you not just use h2h score to determine who passes after map score?
People do that, but any group of an odd amount of player can have h2hs cyclically, that's what creates the ties.
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Another big problem of round robin is that you have an uncertain narrative until the very end of the group, where everyone is like "well, this match COULD matter for player A if x and x happen" and it's very hard to build hype as there are few matches that are either elimination matches or guaranteed advancement matches. Everything relies on conditionals of what happens in other matches, which makes it hard to follow as a viewer.
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A random draw including Yugioh? That's not fair!
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Round robin format is standard for so many sports. The regular season is a big round robin and then the top advance to playoffs. SSL used that last year, in both of their leagues. I see several advantages to this system in a long running competition. 1) I think that the system is more reflective of skill. More games vs more players will give everyone a bigger opportunity to show their worth. There are no "unlucky brackets". 2) You, as a spectator, will be able to cheer for the players for a long time instead of seeing your favourite getting knocked out on the first day, like + Show Spoiler + 3) The players will have a more steady income, especially if they a) get money for showing up to play and b) get money for each game won.
This article didn't talk about long seasonal play. The focus was shorter tournaments. I don't see as many advantages in smaller groups at weekend tournaments. In small groups there is a higher chance for ties and the advantage for the higher skilled players is smaller.
I am all for variety in how tournaments are played, but I would be most happy to see round robin beeing used in seasonal play. SSL, please!
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On February 14 2018 07:49 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2018 07:15 Fango wrote: Can you not just use h2h score to determine who passes after map score? People do that, but any group of an odd amount of player can have h2hs cyclically, that's what creates the ties.
Yeah ties still happen, but it's less likely if you prioritise 2h2 over map score.
A lot of people here might not be familiar with it, but the Swiss system that big csgo tournaments use is really good. You have all 15 teams in one group and they play eachother based of their map scores until 8 advance to playoffs.
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