On June 23 2018 09:14 Charoisaur wrote:
Even if you don't seem to consider Proleague to be important, the players definitely did and that's what counts. For them it was just as important as a Starleague and having the best run in SC2 history is certainly not "nothing".
It's easily as impressive as winning a GSL.
Also Classic, aLive, Gumiho and Inno were certainly not bad lol.
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On June 23 2018 05:54 Olli wrote:
The impressive names here are Zest, TY, Stats, Dark, Dear and Solar. That's exactly what I said. A handful of good players in Bo1s. Everyone else was bad.
I've been to four HSCs. If you think the Koreans don't take it seriously you're wrong. They go straight home after their matches and spend the entire event practicing until they're eliminated. Plus the level of play was much higher than it was in 2016 for reasons I have highlighted multiple times.
Anyway, you are still completely, 100% missing the point. Some guy tried to argue that Maru didn't go through a slump comparable to Zest's. Well, after his Proleague run Maru did literally nothing for the rest of 2016. And then did very little in 2017 too. He did a bit better than Zest in 2017, but also did very significantly worse in 2016. To suggest the two arent comparable is absurd.
On June 23 2018 05:33 Fango wrote:
"Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive." holy shit, you must be joking at this point...
He took out Dear, INno, TY x3, Stats x2, Dark, Zest, Solar, Gumiho, aLive, Classic, ByuL, Bunny x2, Myungsik, Leenock, and Losira. That includes almost the entire top 10 of WCS Korea (minus ByuN).
You simply cannot downplay proleague because of the supposed level of play, and then assume HSCs mean anything at all. HSC is not a serious premier event. No high level player prepares specifically for it, or for the opponents there. Players in proleague would be crying or dancing out of their seats after matches because it was an event of great importance, it was literally their job to perform there. Many times teams even forced players to practice for SPL over individual leagues.
I doubt the top players even care that much if they win or lose there, so to put it's ridiculous for fans to give it the same weighting as proleague or starleagues. To value HSC highly is to value the minor LANs and online cups highly. The fact that Zest won HSC while failing to qualify for a GSL is not something worth highlighting.
On June 23 2018 04:28 Olli wrote:
Because a lot of good people were either not playing SC2 seriously (Rogue, herO for example), others were simply not good at LotV yet (Classic for example), the overall level of play in Proleague was awful as people knew it was ending and teams would be disbanding, a lot of good players had already retired. Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive. Zest's HSC runs actually had more games against really good players - GSL champion Gumiho, Solar, ByuN, soon-to-be IEM champion Scarlett, SSL champion Stats. All Bo5+.
I will take that over Bo1s against people like Blaze, Losira, etc. and a handful of good players in Bo1s every day.
As for GSL, it wasn't as weak, because bad players get eliminated, you know? That doesn't happen in PL.
On June 23 2018 03:57 Charoisaur wrote:
"A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak"
LOL how was Proleague incredibly weak?
If Proleague was incredibly weak then GSL was incredibly weak as well.
On June 22 2018 02:38 Olli wrote:
Along with a Ro8 at BlizzCon? Yeah I don't see how what Maru did 2016-17 was any better than Zest's results after his peak in early 2016.
Not that that is the point, though. Nobody in 16-17 considered Maru anywhere near a championship challenger, which for a player if his caliber qualifies as a slump. A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak doesn't change that.
On June 22 2018 02:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:
They really don't though, but hey maybe if you add the Game Land Invitational it could be close
On June 22 2018 01:48 Olli wrote:
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
On June 22 2018 01:20 Fango wrote:
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
On June 22 2018 00:59 Olli wrote:
[quote]
How did Maru do in 2016?
[quote]
How did Maru do in 2016?
He had the best proleague run in sc2 history. Even if he didn't show up for individual leagues that year, it's undeniable that he was one of the best players in the world. The same can't really be said for Zest's 2017.
Zest won two tournaments. They're HSCs, but they add up to being comparable to Maru's achievements in 2016-17.
They really don't though, but hey maybe if you add the Game Land Invitational it could be close
Along with a Ro8 at BlizzCon? Yeah I don't see how what Maru did 2016-17 was any better than Zest's results after his peak in early 2016.
Not that that is the point, though. Nobody in 16-17 considered Maru anywhere near a championship challenger, which for a player if his caliber qualifies as a slump. A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak doesn't change that.
"A bunch of Bo1s when Proleague was incredibly weak"
LOL how was Proleague incredibly weak?
If Proleague was incredibly weak then GSL was incredibly weak as well.
Because a lot of good people were either not playing SC2 seriously (Rogue, herO for example), others were simply not good at LotV yet (Classic for example), the overall level of play in Proleague was awful as people knew it was ending and teams would be disbanding, a lot of good players had already retired. Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive. Zest's HSC runs actually had more games against really good players - GSL champion Gumiho, Solar, ByuN, soon-to-be IEM champion Scarlett, SSL champion Stats. All Bo5+.
I will take that over Bo1s against people like Blaze, Losira, etc. and a handful of good players in Bo1s every day.
As for GSL, it wasn't as weak, because bad players get eliminated, you know? That doesn't happen in PL.
"Check who Maru played. I did, and aside from a few names it isn't impressive." holy shit, you must be joking at this point...
He took out Dear, INno, TY x3, Stats x2, Dark, Zest, Solar, Gumiho, aLive, Classic, ByuL, Bunny x2, Myungsik, Leenock, and Losira. That includes almost the entire top 10 of WCS Korea (minus ByuN).
You simply cannot downplay proleague because of the supposed level of play, and then assume HSCs mean anything at all. HSC is not a serious premier event. No high level player prepares specifically for it, or for the opponents there. Players in proleague would be crying or dancing out of their seats after matches because it was an event of great importance, it was literally their job to perform there. Many times teams even forced players to practice for SPL over individual leagues.
I doubt the top players even care that much if they win or lose there, so to put it's ridiculous for fans to give it the same weighting as proleague or starleagues. To value HSC highly is to value the minor LANs and online cups highly. The fact that Zest won HSC while failing to qualify for a GSL is not something worth highlighting.
The impressive names here are Zest, TY, Stats, Dark, Dear and Solar. That's exactly what I said. A handful of good players in Bo1s. Everyone else was bad.
I've been to four HSCs. If you think the Koreans don't take it seriously you're wrong. They go straight home after their matches and spend the entire event practicing until they're eliminated. Plus the level of play was much higher than it was in 2016 for reasons I have highlighted multiple times.
Anyway, you are still completely, 100% missing the point. Some guy tried to argue that Maru didn't go through a slump comparable to Zest's. Well, after his Proleague run Maru did literally nothing for the rest of 2016. And then did very little in 2017 too. He did a bit better than Zest in 2017, but also did very significantly worse in 2016. To suggest the two arent comparable is absurd.
Even if you don't seem to consider Proleague to be important, the players definitely did and that's what counts. For them it was just as important as a Starleague and having the best run in SC2 history is certainly not "nothing".
It's easily as impressive as winning a GSL.
Also Classic, aLive, Gumiho and Inno were certainly not bad lol.
The fact that you think beating INnoVation in 2016 means anything tells me what I need to know.