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On August 12 2018 03:18 KalWarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2018 23:30 sc-darkness wrote: What's talent? If it's the right skill set and enough practice, then yes. If it's some magical power, then I don't agree there's such a thing. it's the ability to learn quickly. it's the physical ability to think fast as light on the spot and move your mouse accordingly (different humans will peak at different levels of it, no matter the pracitse). Mozart listened to 2 hour long concerts ONCE as a 5 year old and could immediatly replay the whole thing almost perfectly and write it down. Try to teach that to a million kids and one or two will succeed. Show nested quote +On August 12 2018 03:16 sabas123 wrote:On August 12 2018 03:13 KalWarkov wrote: there is players who played sc2 just as much as serral and are gold league.
talent IS the biggest factor in highly competetive games. Anyone saying something else. And you sample size for this is what, 2 players? even if it would just be 2 players (which it is not, the gold-diamond caliber player with 20k games are plenty, there is other pros like serral, say maru, jaedong, reynor...), that would be enough to prove my point in this case. There is distinct differences in learning ability, peak of performance of an individual This isn't a good indication though, for example, how do we know that serral and maru are the anomaly in the data set and not the silver/gold. Remember that only very few players play the amount play anything remotely similar to them. Keep also in mind that we have no idea how those low level players practice.
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On August 12 2018 17:11 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2018 16:51 FrkFrJss wrote:On August 12 2018 13:21 fronkschnonk wrote:On August 12 2018 07:42 hobbyistGamedev wrote: Secondly, nobody likes to admit that East Asians are, on average, slightly smarter than most other ethnic groups. In a game that's cerebral to a large extent, where differences snowball both in-game and without, the ripple of even a slight average IQ advantage can make the difference between domination and being solid Code A. I would be cautious with such data. While I approve of your point about talent in general, I don't think that it can be called a solved issue why East Asian have a better IQ on average. The IQ in itself is a highly problematic concept and it just tests stuff which is considered as intelligent by our modern society while performing well in it is proven to be a matter of being familiar with thought patterns of this modern society. I think the whole talent versus hard debate is best summed up with the analogy of the rubber band. The person with more innate talent has the bigger rubber band, but hard work is how far the rubber band is stretched. All other things equal, the person with the greater talent will stretch farther, but a person who works harder than the person with talent can reach or surpass the person with talent. The master player will never reach Serral's level regardless of how much he practices and how little Serral practices. How do you know? Keep in mind that he was a low/mid level pro for quite some time. You would have said this 5 years ago.
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On August 12 2018 21:20 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2018 17:11 Charoisaur wrote:On August 12 2018 16:51 FrkFrJss wrote:On August 12 2018 13:21 fronkschnonk wrote:On August 12 2018 07:42 hobbyistGamedev wrote: Secondly, nobody likes to admit that East Asians are, on average, slightly smarter than most other ethnic groups. In a game that's cerebral to a large extent, where differences snowball both in-game and without, the ripple of even a slight average IQ advantage can make the difference between domination and being solid Code A. I would be cautious with such data. While I approve of your point about talent in general, I don't think that it can be called a solved issue why East Asian have a better IQ on average. The IQ in itself is a highly problematic concept and it just tests stuff which is considered as intelligent by our modern society while performing well in it is proven to be a matter of being familiar with thought patterns of this modern society. I think the whole talent versus hard debate is best summed up with the analogy of the rubber band. The person with more innate talent has the bigger rubber band, but hard work is how far the rubber band is stretched. All other things equal, the person with the greater talent will stretch farther, but a person who works harder than the person with talent can reach or surpass the person with talent. The master player will never reach Serral's level regardless of how much he practices and how little Serral practices. How do you know? Keep in mind that he was a low/mid level pro for quite some time. You would have said this 5 years ago. This isn't really hard to figure out. There are a lot of master players who play as much as Serral (he said he practices 5-6 hours a day which isn't that much). And seeing how quickly players like MMA reached a decent level again, Serral would still be lightyears ahead of the masters player after playing 0 games for an entire year.
Same is true in every other aspect of life/competition. There are people who put in 0 effort and get better grades than people studying all day every day.
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On August 12 2018 22:06 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2018 21:20 sabas123 wrote:On August 12 2018 17:11 Charoisaur wrote:On August 12 2018 16:51 FrkFrJss wrote:On August 12 2018 13:21 fronkschnonk wrote:On August 12 2018 07:42 hobbyistGamedev wrote: Secondly, nobody likes to admit that East Asians are, on average, slightly smarter than most other ethnic groups. In a game that's cerebral to a large extent, where differences snowball both in-game and without, the ripple of even a slight average IQ advantage can make the difference between domination and being solid Code A. I would be cautious with such data. While I approve of your point about talent in general, I don't think that it can be called a solved issue why East Asian have a better IQ on average. The IQ in itself is a highly problematic concept and it just tests stuff which is considered as intelligent by our modern society while performing well in it is proven to be a matter of being familiar with thought patterns of this modern society. I think the whole talent versus hard debate is best summed up with the analogy of the rubber band. The person with more innate talent has the bigger rubber band, but hard work is how far the rubber band is stretched. All other things equal, the person with the greater talent will stretch farther, but a person who works harder than the person with talent can reach or surpass the person with talent. The master player will never reach Serral's level regardless of how much he practices and how little Serral practices. How do you know? Keep in mind that he was a low/mid level pro for quite some time. You would have said this 5 years ago. This isn't really hard to figure out. There are a lot of master players who play as much as Serral (he said he practices 5-6 hours a day which isn't that much). And seeing how quickly players like MMA reached a decent level again, Serral would still be lightyears ahead of the masters player after playing 0 games for an entire year. Same is true in every other aspect of life/competition. There are people who put in 0 effort and get better grades than people studying all day every day.
You don't know that though. Lets assume we are only counting practice time where players are actively wanting to improve. I doubt there are any master players that practiced for over 5 hours a day, for over 5 days a week year long (assuming Serral does the same) spanning half a decade at this point.
Even if I where to give you that. We still don't know if they had the same practice method, same amount of help, did they try to do things extra on the side that took too much effort and deteriorated practice quality?
There are a ton of variables that all impact once's performance and you can't generalize stuff like "Ow, Serral is really good and master players practice the same amount, therefore the environment of the master players must be equal enough that only talent matters".
Also it is terrible disingenuous to pretend that a ex-world class player can return to a high level only because of talent, totally ignoring that he was a world class player before and already gained most of the skills required to play at that level.
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On August 12 2018 23:53 sabas123 wrote:
You don't know that though. Lets assume we are only counting practice time where players are actively wanting to improve. I doubt there are any master players that practiced for over 5 hours a day, for over 5 days a week year long (assuming Serral does the same) spanning half a decade at this point.
Even if I where to give you that. We still don't know if they had the same practice method, same amount of help, did they try to do things extra on the side that took too much effort and deteriorated practice quality?
The thing is though, just because Serral has tournament matches on record dating back to WoL doesn't mean he has been practicing the same amount and with the same motivation and with the same mindset all throughout for "half a decade at this point" as you put it.
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On August 13 2018 01:53 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2018 23:53 sabas123 wrote:
You don't know that though. Lets assume we are only counting practice time where players are actively wanting to improve. I doubt there are any master players that practiced for over 5 hours a day, for over 5 days a week year long (assuming Serral does the same) spanning half a decade at this point.
Even if I where to give you that. We still don't know if they had the same practice method, same amount of help, did they try to do things extra on the side that took too much effort and deteriorated practice quality?
The thing is though, just because Serral has tournament matches on record dating back to WoL doesn't mean he has been practicing the same amount and with the same motivation and with the same mindset all throughout for "half a decade at this point" as you put it. I agree, we do not know what effort players put in their practice over a long period of time. But the posters that I am commenting on somehow seem to think you can assume this for the master players even though we know nothing about them, and set them equal to Serral (Which we do not know in depth either). Or at least set them equal to the point that only talent can be a the defining factor. I.E that players have reached their peak, used the best possible way to practice, had sufficient resources to perform in an optimal state by having enough time for practice and sustain them self's ect.
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i haven't had much of a chance to play SC2 since SC:R. on the other hand i don't think talent is any different than it was before. even the most talented player has to play several games a day, 10 or more to be a top contender.
and every player will hit plateaus--even the most talented player can't continue to rise indefinitely. there's an element of skill and an element of talent.
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On August 12 2018 23:53 sabas123 wrote: You don't know that though. Lets assume we are only counting practice time where players are actively wanting to improve. I doubt there are any master players that practiced for over 5 hours a day, for over 5 days a week year long (assuming Serral does the same) spanning half a decade at this point.
Even if I where to give you that. We still don't know if they had the same practice method, same amount of help, did they try to do things extra on the side that took too much effort and deteriorated practice quality?
There are a ton of variables that all impact once's performance and you can't generalize stuff like "Ow, Serral is really good and master players practice the same amount, therefore the environment of the master players must be equal enough that only talent matters".
Well, this point was made several times in this thread: talent is probably an ability to learn/grasp/adapt certain things better/faster than most others. I would say, this includes the ability how a player more or less instinctively approaches his practice, how he reflects on his played games, what stuff he tries out based on experiences made in the game and so on. Even if Serral would stand next to you and would give you a step-by-step instruction of what to do and what to think about, you still wouldn't be able to practice as effective as him, because those aren't your own thoughts.
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Mexico2169 Posts
Here's an unconfortable truth:
People have different physical limatations, and virtues. We are not equal.
Talent without hardwork gets you nowhere. Hardwork is the most important thing because without it you stay at zero. However when two people work the same ammount, pyshical and mental caracteristics that come from our own genetics start to get into play. People refer to them as talent. But in reality they're simply genetics.
Some people run faster than others. Some people are naturally stronger, some are naturally skinnier. Sure, they skiny guy can get buff, but it will take longer.
There is a limit that is different to every person. Why Usain Bolt was faster than the other members of the Jamaican team? Or the other racers? Did they not train as hard? No, all the jamaican team used the same type of training. It was genetics. Talent.
Some people Will play 20k games and get to silver, some will win the GSL, and most will be somewhere in between.
So of course he puts a lot of effots, and of course if we average humans put effort into anything, we can get pretty good at almost anything, but then there will always be that guy that will put the same effor than us and be better. I think that's serral's case, as well as the case for many other pros.
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However when two people work the same ammount, pyshical and mental caracteristics that come from our own genetics start to get into play. People refer to them as talent. But in reality they're simply genetics. Assumptions. Can you proof this? I bet you cant because mainstream cant even proof it. It looks like its hearsay. Why dont you assume that the person that do it better has a better understanding of what he is doing? Maybe his thought process is better, or maybe he is just way more healthy in general so he can use his bodies energy much better as well.
There are for sure many more factors involved here which is ignored by the medium man because they trust what mainstream tells them.
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On August 13 2018 12:54 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +However when two people work the same ammount, pyshical and mental caracteristics that come from our own genetics start to get into play. People refer to them as talent. But in reality they're simply genetics. Assumptions. Can you proof this? I bet you cant because mainstream cant even proof it. It looks like its hearsay. Why dont you assume that the person that do it better has a better understanding of what he is doing? Maybe his thought process is better, or maybe he is just way more healthy in general so he can use his bodies energy much better as well. There are for sure many more factors involved here which is ignored by the medium man because they trust what mainstream tells them. And where does he get the better understanding from? Did he choose to have a better thought process? Did he choose to be more healthy? Or is it genetics i. e. talent?
I can't believe we're even arguing about this, this is getting ridicolous.
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On August 13 2018 16:49 Charoisaur wrote:
Did he choose to have a better thought process? Or is it genetics i. e. talent?
Gonna disagree with you hard here buddy. I know for a fact I wouldn't have had half the wits I have today (nor the academic and professional success) if it hadn't been for my parents thoroughly and explicitly teaching me critical thinking from a young age and all throughout growing up. And that's no genetics, that's someone else's hard work for your benefit.
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On August 13 2018 16:52 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2018 16:49 Charoisaur wrote:
Did he choose to have a better thought process? Or is it genetics i. e. talent?
Gonna disagree with you hard here buddy. I know for a fact I wouldn't have had half the wits I have today (nor the academic and professional success) if it hadn't been for my parents thoroughly and explicitly teaching me critical thinking from a young age and all throughout growing up. And that's no genetics, that's someone else's hard work for your benefit. That may be true in some cases but I heavily doubt everyone who improves quicker than someone else at something does so because of good parenting. Don't ask for examples, it's common sense. Also that only affects the mental limitations, physical limitations are unaffected by 'parents teaching you critical thinking'
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France12466 Posts
I can't believe though that nobody talked about races yet. Yes, talent is good to have. But as a foreigner you better hope you made the right choice at the start of your journey.
uThermal or Special aren't less talented than the other top foreigners, yet they won't have as much results because the race is that much harder to play. Serral wouldn't have won GSL vs The World as terran and that's a sad truth.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 13 2018 17:20 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2018 16:52 207aicila wrote:On August 13 2018 16:49 Charoisaur wrote:
Did he choose to have a better thought process? Or is it genetics i. e. talent?
Gonna disagree with you hard here buddy. I know for a fact I wouldn't have had half the wits I have today (nor the academic and professional success) if it hadn't been for my parents thoroughly and explicitly teaching me critical thinking from a young age and all throughout growing up. And that's no genetics, that's someone else's hard work for your benefit. That may be true in some cases but I heavily doubt everyone who improves quicker than someone else at something does so because of good parenting. Don't ask for examples, it's common sense. Also that only affects the mental limitations, physical limitations are unaffected by 'parents teaching you critical thinking' It is common sense that better education leads to better educational scores. And I don't see how parenting is completely isolated from this.
Physical limitations are not a factor in SC.
On August 13 2018 11:22 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2018 23:53 sabas123 wrote: You don't know that though. Lets assume we are only counting practice time where players are actively wanting to improve. I doubt there are any master players that practiced for over 5 hours a day, for over 5 days a week year long (assuming Serral does the same) spanning half a decade at this point.
Even if I where to give you that. We still don't know if they had the same practice method, same amount of help, did they try to do things extra on the side that took too much effort and deteriorated practice quality?
There are a ton of variables that all impact once's performance and you can't generalize stuff like "Ow, Serral is really good and master players practice the same amount, therefore the environment of the master players must be equal enough that only talent matters".
Well, this point was made several times in this thread: talent is probably an ability to learn/grasp/adapt certain things better/faster than most others. I would say, this includes the ability how a player more or less instinctively approaches his practice, how he reflects on his played games, what stuff he tries out based on experiences made in the game and so on. Even if Serral would stand next to you and would give you a step-by-step instruction of what to do and what to think about, you still wouldn't be able to practice as effective as him, because those aren't your own thoughts. Serral might have other thought processes than other players. But that does not mean that those same players could not develop those processes when given different teachings when they started out.
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Physical limitations are not a factor in SC.
No? Anyone can reach 400+ APM?
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On August 13 2018 22:50 Charoisaur wrote:No? Anyone can reach 400+ APM? Since when do we have kids whose fingers are literally to weak to push buttons 3 times a second.
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On August 13 2018 23:14 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2018 22:50 Charoisaur wrote:
Physical limitations are not a factor in SC.
No? Anyone can reach 400+ APM? Since when do we have kids whose fingers are literally to weak to push buttons 3 times a second. There's a difference between pushing random buttons and reaching 400 APM in a real game. I can't reach it. No matter how hard I try. Unless I bind my commandcenter on different control groups, then spam as hard as possible and leave right after. But that isn't a real game.
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