Serral's path at GSL vs. The World was clear: he'd prove himself against INnoVation, avenge years of foreigner slaughter against Dark, and take on Maru in the grand finals. It would be the greatest challenge Serral had ever faced, going up against the best player in the world in his worst match-up of ZvT. Just by reaching that point, he'd have been legitimized as a true world-class player and not 'just another foreigner.'
Of course, it would all end in defeat. Maybe it would even be an honorable death, earned at the end of a glorious battle, but it would be death nonetheless. Serral's strength—which had borne the immense burden of foreigner hope—would finally give out, and he'd be crushed by Maru, the titan of Korea.
Serral's first two games against INnoVation went better than anyone had dared to hope. INnoVation's second GG—coming after an intense game where Serral precisely picked the Terran's push apart with devilish counter-attacks and perfect engagements—left the foreign community relishing in a rare afterglow. Could Serral defy his fate, refusing to become another foreigner reduced to dust by the Korean machine? In that moment, it looked like Serral was the elite Korean Zerg—akin to Dark, akin to the soO of old—sent to punish some over-achieving foreign Terran for the unthinkable sin of daring to dream. Serral finished InnoVation off in a 3-0 sweep.
No ordinary foreigner could pick apart INnoVation in such a manner. Even Dark—famous for defeating and disrespecting foreigners (he dismissed Scarlett as mere refuse in the same tournament)—remembered his manners when it was his turn to face Serral. It proved to be a prudent choice, as Dark's 34-match winning streak versus foreigners ended with a 1-3 defeat to Serral. The Finn was bound for the finals.
Meanwhile, the Koreans had gone off script as well, as Statswon a stunning upset against Maru in the other semifinal. For a moment, foreigner fans might have been delighted. 'Not Maru? In Serral's best match-up? Bring it on!' And for newer fans, that might have been all. But for those who had followed Starcraft II since its beginning, that feeling of delight would have been followed by deep, ancestral dread.
Because, after all, the history of foreigner StarCraft is a history of broken dreams, where success merely ups the ante for inevitable failure.
Where to begin? For years, the most celebrated foreigner achievement was Jinro's back-to-back GSL semifinals. How easily we forgot that he went a combined 1-7 in the subsequent semifinals, including a 0-4 loss to a prime MC.
The brilliant-but-controversial NaNiwa made it all the way to the finals of MLG Providence 2011, only to lose 1-4 to a young Leenock in the finals. At the 2013 WCS Season 2 Finals, he defeated best-in-the-world INnoVation in a massive upset, but fell to Jaedong in the following round. At the peak of her powers, Scarlett defeated reigning Starleague champion Maru in the 2013 WCS Season 2 Finals group stage, only to lose to Bomber 2-3 in the quarterfinals. Her MLG Anaheim 2014 run—where she defeated the likes of DongRaeGu and Life—ended with a loss to the unheralded Trap.
Even the hallowed Stephano—who rewarded the faithful by winning IPL and NASL—gave us disappointing moments as well. He entered the 2012 WCS World Championship with a reputation as both Korean-Killer and innovator of Brood Lord-Infestor, but was eliminated from the first group stage by HerO. His early forays in Korea were underwhelming, with a RO32 elimination in Code S and pedestrian 6-5 record for EG-TL in Proleague.
The list goes on and on. Snute beat the GSL and SSL champions back to back at IEM Shenzhen, only to get swept 0-3 by TY in the next round. Scarlett reached the semifinals of WCS America where she lost to Jaedong 2-3. SjoW eliminated Life in one of the greatest upsets of all time at DreamHack, but then lost to the unheralded StarDust in the following series.
There have been enough upsets—enough phenomenal, shining moments in foreigner history to piece together a patchwork quilt of hope. But it's not enough to hide the scars left from heartbreaking loss after heartbreaking loss.
So, you'd be forgiven for not believing in Serral.
Stats wasn't Maru, but he was still he was still the most consistently excellent player of Legacy of the Void, with eight grand finals worth of mind-games, cunning, and best-of-seven strategizing to draw from. Even after Serral became the first foreigner to ever win an offline best-of-five against INnoVation, even after he brought Dark to justice, and even after he won a best-of-one against Maru in an event match, Stats made him look like the rest of his peers by taking a 2-0 lead to begin the finals.
Unfazed, Serral rallied back in impressive fashion, dominating Stats to even the score up at 2-2. Another wild momentum swing came in game five, where Serral played one of his best games of the year—and lost to Stats anyway.
It was all too easy to envision the familiar ending. Serral, after showing so much skill and spirit, would finally reach the limit of his abilities. After putting Serral at match-point, Stats would capitalize on his scared, nervous opponent and close out the series with a series of daring moves. The Korean scene would wink, give us a wag of the finger, and say 'Whew! You almost had us there. Better luck next time.' Of course, there would be no 'next time.' That would be the end of Serral, The False Hope of 2018, who would be worth a few paragraphs in the annals of foreigner history.
But that didn't happen. In games six and seven, it was Stats who was on edge, looking like an underdog desperately trying to find a way to steal one more map against a terrifying opponent. On the other hand, Serral remained poised and calm until the end, ruthlessly taking advantage of his opponent's self-destruct sequence. With one final all-in, Serral kicked down the golden gates that had protected Korea for so long. This time, the story had real fairy tale ending: Serral hoisted the trophy, gave it a kiss, and lifted the curse.
Of course, Neeb deserves credit for being the first foreigner win a StarCraft II title on Korean soil in the 2016 KeSPA Cup. It was the former crown jewel of the revised WCS system, a milestone achievement for foreigners in StarCraft II, and a turning point that foreshadowed Serral's ascent in 2018. However, there's no denying that the quality of Neeb's triumph was different. His greatest moment of peril came against Pet, a player who hadn't reached Code S in years. While his semifinals match against Stats was fantastic, he ended up winning the championship with a victory against Trap, a player firmly mired in Korea's middle-class. Neeb also managed to dodge favorites such as Maru, TY and ByuN, which let him take advantage of his best-in-world Protoss vs Protoss.
In comparison, Serral faced elite players in all three matchups (INnoVation, Dark and Stats represent a top three Korean Terran, top two Korean Zerg, and the best Korean Protoss), and absolutely demolished two of them. It took Stats—who is arguably the best overall player of Legacy Of The Void's three-year run, who had just won a best-of-five over the consensus best player in the world, who came with a brilliant seven-game plan, who played one of the best games of his career in game five—to force a game seven that Serral still won in the end. For one tournament, Serral came closer to perfection than any of his peers or predecessors.
For the entirety of StarCraft's existence, fans of foreigners have patiently persevered, waiting for that one moment where a foreigner might stand on top of the world and definitively claim they are the best. Serral faced enormous odds—elite players from the present, and a daunting history of losing from the past—and conquered them all. Serral's form may not last, but the future is secure. This moment will last forever.
Whoa now, let's not invalidate Neeb's Kespa Cup win, especially since he won against Rogue (2-0 win), Zest (2-0 win), and Stats (3-1 win) as well. Not to mention he dominated the finals 4-0
On August 19 2018 11:32 Bagration wrote: Whoa now, let's not invalidate Neeb's Kespa Cup win, especially since he won against Rogue (2-0 win), Zest (2-0 win), and Stats (3-1 win) as well. Not to mention he dominated the finals 4-0
He had great PvP, and okay PvZ. Beating 2016 Rogue wasn't much of an achievement.
On August 19 2018 11:43 esReveR wrote: I don't see any mention of Scarlett's IEM Pyeongchang win on Korean soil.
I mean...one bo7 against sOs and a bo5 against Serral doesn't really say much. As impressive as it was, that win also took place when PvZ was more than a little lopsided.
On August 19 2018 11:32 Bagration wrote: Whoa now, let's not invalidate Neeb's Kespa Cup win, especially since he won against Rogue (2-0 win), Zest (2-0 win), and Stats (3-1 win) as well. Not to mention he dominated the finals 4-0
He had great PvP, and okay PvZ. Beating 2016 Rogue wasn't much of an achievement.
It's still an impressive premier title on Korean soil. Just because Serral looked good in 2 Bo5s and a Bo7 doesn't mean that prior accomplishments aren't valid anymore
By that logic, because Nestea once won GSL Code S without dropping a map, all other GSL wins aren't as valid
On August 19 2018 11:43 esReveR wrote: I don't see any mention of Scarlett's IEM Pyeongchang win on Korean soil.
I mean...one bo7 against sOs and a bo5 against Serral doesn't really say much. As impressive as it was, that win also took place when PvZ was more than a little lopsided.
She also beat Time and Elazer in a bo5 to win that as well. Not exactly scrubs.
PvZ was more in the Zergs favor around that time but, this is sOs ffs.
On August 19 2018 11:43 esReveR wrote: I don't see any mention of Scarlett's IEM Pyeongchang win on Korean soil.
I mean...one bo7 against sOs and a bo5 against Serral doesn't really say much. As impressive as it was, that win also took place when PvZ was more than a little lopsided.
She also beat Time and Elazer in a bo5 to win that as well. Not exactly scrubs.
PvZ was more in the Zergs favor around that time but, this is sOs ffs.
Not to mention Scarlett followed that up with an impressive GSL run to the ro8
I almost always cheer for Scarlett (unless against Neeb), and I really hoped for a better result than the ro8 (even though ro8 was quite impressive), but I still try to look at the results objectively. Scarlett beat two top foreigners, and a good up and coming TIME. Scarlett destroyed sOs, who was and is always very good.
However, Scarlett only beat on top P in sOs. Serral, on the other hand, destroyed a top 3 Terran in Innovation, top 3 Zerg in Dark, crushed the best player in the world in a bo1, and played a very back and forth series with the best Protoss in the world in Stats. Oh, and Serral also beat Kelazhur. The size and scope of Serral's achievement is just in another tier than Scarlett's victory.
By no means am I trying to minimize Scarlett's achieve or utter domination of the competition with only 4 map losses in the entire tournament. But Serral not only beat one top Korean, he beat three top Koreans of all different races.
Very nice article, many thanks! I do remember watching Naniwa vs Inno, and after it was over, you could see on Naniwa's face that he couldn't really believe that he actually had pulled it off himself.
On August 19 2018 13:43 argonautdice wrote: my prediction is serral won't win wcs Montreal or blizzcon but he'll do well.
People arent going to bother with predicting whether he'll win Montreal.
Yeah, he's very favored but it's always possible he loses, he often drops maps against say uThermal, and Scarlett/Neeb/Reynor can do it if he isn't in top shape. But I hope not.
In the list of foriegner heart breaks, in my mind none is more tragic than Grubby, after winning a stunning upset over the Boss Toss himself in an epic Phoenix vs Phoenix pvp, where MC dared to try to outmicro one of the best WC3 players of all time, he went up against Sting, who had made it out of his group 3-2 and a better map score than Tefel who also went 3-2, only to beat lucifron 3-2, then Yugioh the gatekeeper of Code A 3-2, then Vortix 3-2, and finally in the finals of IEM Singapore, defeated Grubby 3-2, and then disappeared into the night. Never to be heard from again.
Anyways, congrats to Serral, it was a magnificent run. I thought for sure he'd collapse after going down 0-2 against Stats.
On August 19 2018 17:57 DSh1 wrote: Didn't Dark's winning streak end vs Elazer at Blizzcon? Also the first moment for a foreigner to win it would be Neeb for me at Kespa Cup.
On August 19 2018 17:57 DSh1 wrote: Didn't Dark's winning streak end vs Elazer at Blizzcon? Also the first moment for a foreigner to win it would be Neeb for me at Kespa Cup.
On August 19 2018 11:32 Bagration wrote: Whoa now, let's not invalidate Neeb's Kespa Cup win, especially since he won against Rogue (2-0 win), Zest (2-0 win), and Stats (3-1 win) as well. Not to mention he dominated the finals 4-0
Writers like to do this for some reason, because it validates some narrative about Serral being the first player to achieve anything, while dismissing other foreign players who have done the same things at different (and often more challenging) times.
Back when Neeb won kespa cup, people got real hate for saying he got lucky with the brackets and meta, or for trying to downplay his achievement and skill in any way.
Yet now Serral that won a tournament, the consensus seems to be that Neeb's win wasn't all that. Weird how that changes. I guess people really want the narrative that X has never been done before.
There will always be people to downplay achievements of certain players in certain tournaments. Specially if it concerns foreigners. Neeb's victory is legit. Now is Serral victory more impressive? That's for sure, but that's not the point of the article. Neeb was the first to "not disappoint" in korea in sc2.
I think the main reason (that I find legit as well) why people want Serral achievements to be more meaningful than Neeb ones, is that when you watch Serral play all year long, you can see that his level of play is far higher than Neeb at his peak, and way more consistent. Serral's dominance against foreigner is literally unprecedented. He probably sweeps 80% of his Bo3+ matches against foreigners (would love to have stats on this), and he gives the impression of being a more complete player, with no real weaknesses. Neeb wasn't so dominant.
On August 19 2018 20:50 Clazziquai10 wrote: I feel that while other foreigners have won Korean tourneys before, none has ever looked so dominant while doing so
He did look really strong, but if you look at his wins it wasn't anymore impressive than what Neeb did imo.
Kelazhur - Free win
Innovation - Doesn't respect foreigners and plays standard vs them, so he is susceptible in to players hard-countering him with anti-inno builds. Scarlett beat him with ling cheese and Serral opted for roach/rav cheese. Serral prob spent the majority of his time prepping for either Rogue or Inno as he was bound to beat Kel.
Dark: ZvZ is his weakest matchup.
Stats: Eked out a comeback win.
Neeb's Kespa Cup run
2-0 Rogue.
2-1 Byun.
3-2 Pet
3-1 Stats
4-0 Trap
7-1 vs #1 and #3 toss in the world
Both achievements are impressive, but there is a reason the rational folks kept their heads and did not knight Neeb the best player after Kespa cup. It's a lot harder to be consistent vs. the best than mindgame or counterbuild them in one tournament.
On August 19 2018 20:50 Clazziquai10 wrote: I feel that while other foreigners have won Korean tourneys before, none has ever looked so dominant while doing so
He did look really strong, but if you look at his wins it wasn't anymore impressive than what Neeb did imo.
Kelazhur - Free win
Innovation - Doesn't respect foreigners and plays standard vs them, so he is susceptible in to players hard-countering him with anti-inno builds. Scarlett beat him with ling cheese and Serral opted for roach/rav cheese. Serral prob spent the majority of his time prepping for either Rogue or Inno as he was bound to beat Kel.
Dark: ZvZ is his weakest matchup.
Stats: Eked out a comeback win.
Kespa Cup in 2016
Neeb 2-0 Rogue, best Zerg in the world. 2-1'd Byun. Nothing special but certainly a stronger player than Kelazhur at the time.
3-2 Pet: PvZ is a tough matchup regardless of the opponent.
3-1 Stats: Stomped the best Toss in the world.
4-0: Trap is strong PvPer.
Both achievements are impressive, but there is a reason the rational folks kept their heads and did not knight Neeb the best player after Kespa cup. It's a lot harder to be consistent vs. the best than mindgame or counterbuild them in one tournament.
You obviously weren't following the scene in 2016 but, Byun was the best player in the world at the time, Rogue was still some Ro8 GSL gatekeeper. Saying Rogue best zerg in the world in 2016 and Byun nothing special compared to Kelazhur proves that you don't know what you are talking about (not being rude, just avoiding people being confused by your comment).
All your other comments tend to show that you're a bit biased towards Neeb but.. You really have to admit that Serral's run was way more impressive.
On August 19 2018 21:57 tskarzyn wrote: Neeb's Kespa Cup run
2-0 Rogue.
2-1 Byun.
3-2 Pet
3-1 Stats
4-0 Trap
7-1 vs #1 and #3 toss in the world
Both achievements are impressive, but there is a reason the rational folks kept their heads and did not knight Neeb the best player after Kespa cup. It's a lot harder to be consistent vs. the best than mindgame or counterbuild them in one tournament.
He never faced ByuN. He beat Rogue 2-0 then Zest 2-0. And Rogue was not great at the time.
On August 19 2018 20:50 Clazziquai10 wrote: I feel that while other foreigners have won Korean tourneys before, none has ever looked so dominant while doing so
He did look really strong, but if you look at his wins it wasn't anymore impressive than what Neeb did imo.
Kelazhur - Free win
Innovation - Doesn't respect foreigners and plays standard vs them, so he is susceptible in to players hard-countering him with anti-inno builds. Scarlett beat him with ling cheese and Serral opted for roach/rav cheese. Serral prob spent the majority of his time prepping for either Rogue or Inno as he was bound to beat Kel.
Dark: ZvZ is his weakest matchup.
Stats: Eked out a comeback win.
Kespa Cup in 2016
Neeb 2-0 Rogue, best Zerg in the world. 2-1'd Byun. Nothing special but certainly a stronger player than Kelazhur at the time.
3-2 Pet: PvZ is a tough matchup regardless of the opponent.
3-1 Stats: Stomped the best Toss in the world.
4-0: Trap is strong PvPer.
Both achievements are impressive, but there is a reason the rational folks kept their heads and did not knight Neeb the best player after Kespa cup. It's a lot harder to be consistent vs. the best than mindgame or counterbuild them in one tournament.
You obviously weren't following the scene in 2016 but, Byun was the best player in the world at the time, Rogue was still some Ro8 GSL gatekeeper. Saying Rogue best zerg in the world in 2016 and Byun nothing special compared to Kelazhur proves that you don't know what you are talking about (not being rude, just avoiding people being confused by your comment).
All your other comments tend to show that you're a bit biased towards Neeb but.. You really have to admit that Serral's run was way more impressive.
Rogue #1 was not borne out by results at the time and is a stretch, but he was already a beast and poised to overtake the silver surfers. Zest/Byun, doesn't matter, both GSL champs and good koreans.
Point is, Neeb won a Korean tournament stacked with good players just like Serral did but no one called him the best player in the world. In fact, I remember criticism that he just meta'd other toss players with a new style and he wasn't even the best toss in the world after crushing Zest, Trap, and Stats in one tournament.
What Serral did was extremely impressive, but to claim he is the first foreigner to do it is simply not true.
On August 19 2018 20:50 Clazziquai10 wrote: I feel that while other foreigners have won Korean tourneys before, none has ever looked so dominant while doing so
He did look really strong, but if you look at his wins it wasn't anymore impressive than what Neeb did imo.
Kelazhur - Free win
Innovation - Doesn't respect foreigners and plays standard vs them, so he is susceptible in to players hard-countering him with anti-inno builds. Scarlett beat him with ling cheese and Serral opted for roach/rav cheese. Serral prob spent the majority of his time prepping for either Rogue or Inno as he was bound to beat Kel.
Dark: ZvZ is his weakest matchup.
Stats: Eked out a comeback win.
Kespa Cup in 2016
Neeb 2-0 Rogue, best Zerg in the world. 2-1'd Byun. Nothing special but certainly a stronger player than Kelazhur at the time.
3-2 Pet: PvZ is a tough matchup regardless of the opponent.
3-1 Stats: Stomped the best Toss in the world.
4-0: Trap is strong PvPer.
Both achievements are impressive, but there is a reason the rational folks kept their heads and did not knight Neeb the best player after Kespa cup. It's a lot harder to be consistent vs. the best than mindgame or counterbuild them in one tournament.
You obviously weren't following the scene in 2016 but, Byun was the best player in the world at the time, Rogue was still some Ro8 GSL gatekeeper. Saying Rogue best zerg in the world in 2016 and Byun nothing special compared to Kelazhur proves that you don't know what you are talking about (not being rude, just avoiding people being confused by your comment).
All your other comments tend to show that you're a bit biased towards Neeb but.. You really have to admit that Serral's run was way more impressive.
Rogue #1 was not borne out by results at the time and is a stretch, but he was already a beast and poised to overtake the silver surfers.
No he wasn't lol. He looked like a top 2-3 zerg at the end of 2015. But didn't accomplish much of anything noteworthy in 2016 minus a couple big upsets in proleague.
Even at the start of 2017 he didn't look good. Failing to qualify or losing in the first round of most tournaments before he broke out in GSL season 2.
On August 19 2018 20:50 Clazziquai10 wrote: I feel that while other foreigners have won Korean tourneys before, none has ever looked so dominant while doing so
He did look really strong, but if you look at his wins it wasn't anymore impressive than what Neeb did imo.
Kelazhur - Free win
Innovation - Doesn't respect foreigners and plays standard vs them, so he is susceptible in to players hard-countering him with anti-inno builds. Scarlett beat him with ling cheese and Serral opted for roach/rav cheese. Serral prob spent the majority of his time prepping for either Rogue or Inno as he was bound to beat Kel.
Dark: ZvZ is his weakest matchup.
Stats: Eked out a comeback win.
Kespa Cup in 2016
Neeb 2-0 Rogue, best Zerg in the world. 2-1'd Byun. Nothing special but certainly a stronger player than Kelazhur at the time.
3-2 Pet: PvZ is a tough matchup regardless of the opponent.
3-1 Stats: Stomped the best Toss in the world.
4-0: Trap is strong PvPer.
Both achievements are impressive, but there is a reason the rational folks kept their heads and did not knight Neeb the best player after Kespa cup. It's a lot harder to be consistent vs. the best than mindgame or counterbuild them in one tournament.
You obviously weren't following the scene in 2016 but, Byun was the best player in the world at the time, Rogue was still some Ro8 GSL gatekeeper. Saying Rogue best zerg in the world in 2016 and Byun nothing special compared to Kelazhur proves that you don't know what you are talking about (not being rude, just avoiding people being confused by your comment).
All your other comments tend to show that you're a bit biased towards Neeb but.. You really have to admit that Serral's run was way more impressive.
Rogue #1 was not borne out by results at the time and is a stretch, but he was already a beast and poised to overtake the silver surfers.
No he wasn't lol. He looked like a top 2-3 zerg at the end of 2015. But didn't accomplish much of anything noteworthy in 2016 minus a couple big upsets in proleague.
Even at the start of 2017 he didn't look good. Failing to qualify or losing in the first round of most tournaments before he broke out in GSL season 2.
Okay you're right... Rogue made semis of GSL Finals only 3 months before the Kespa cup, but Life was still in SC2 in late 2015 and my sense of time is f'd.
On August 19 2018 20:50 Clazziquai10 wrote: I feel that while other foreigners have won Korean tourneys before, none has ever looked so dominant while doing so
He did look really strong, but if you look at his wins it wasn't anymore impressive than what Neeb did imo.
Kelazhur - Free win
Innovation - Doesn't respect foreigners and plays standard vs them, so he is susceptible in to players hard-countering him with anti-inno builds. Scarlett beat him with ling cheese and Serral opted for roach/rav cheese. Serral prob spent the majority of his time prepping for either Rogue or Inno as he was bound to beat Kel.
Dark: ZvZ is his weakest matchup.
Stats: Eked out a comeback win.
Kespa Cup in 2016
Neeb 2-0 Rogue, best Zerg in the world. 2-1'd Byun. Nothing special but certainly a stronger player than Kelazhur at the time.
3-2 Pet: PvZ is a tough matchup regardless of the opponent.
3-1 Stats: Stomped the best Toss in the world.
4-0: Trap is strong PvPer.
Both achievements are impressive, but there is a reason the rational folks kept their heads and did not knight Neeb the best player after Kespa cup. It's a lot harder to be consistent vs. the best than mindgame or counterbuild them in one tournament.
You obviously weren't following the scene in 2016 but, Byun was the best player in the world at the time, Rogue was still some Ro8 GSL gatekeeper. Saying Rogue best zerg in the world in 2016 and Byun nothing special compared to Kelazhur proves that you don't know what you are talking about (not being rude, just avoiding people being confused by your comment).
All your other comments tend to show that you're a bit biased towards Neeb but.. You really have to admit that Serral's run was way more impressive.
Rogue #1 was not borne out by results at the time and is a stretch, but he was already a beast and poised to overtake the silver surfers.
No he wasn't lol. He looked like a top 2-3 zerg at the end of 2015. But didn't accomplish much of anything noteworthy in 2016 minus a couple big upsets in proleague.
Even at the start of 2017 he didn't look good. Failing to qualify or losing in the first round of most tournaments before he broke out in GSL season 2.
Okay you're right... Rogue made semis of GSL Finals only 3 months before the Kespa cup, but Life was still in SC2 in late 2015 and my sense of time is f'd.
I'm seriously confused as to who or what you're talking about.
Nice article! This was an amazing feat. Even though Neeb and Scarlett had won in Korea already... this, this was another thing and you put it nicely in the article.
On August 19 2018 11:43 esReveR wrote: I don't see any mention of Scarlett's IEM Pyeongchang win on Korean soil.
I mean...one bo7 against sOs and a bo5 against Serral doesn't really say much. As impressive as it was, that win also took place when PvZ was more than a little lopsided.
She also beat Time and Elazer in a bo5 to win that as well. Not exactly scrubs.
PvZ was more in the Zergs favor around that time but, this is sOs ffs.
Not to mention Scarlett followed that up with an impressive GSL run to the ro8
I almost always cheer for Scarlett (unless against Neeb), and I really hoped for a better result than the ro8 (even though ro8 was quite impressive), but I still try to look at the results objectively. Scarlett beat two top foreigners, and a good up and coming TIME. Scarlett destroyed sOs, who was and is always very good.
However, Scarlett only beat on top P in sOs. Serral, on the other hand, destroyed a top 3 Terran in Innovation, top 3 Zerg in Dark, crushed the best player in the world in a bo1, and played a very back and forth series with the best Protoss in the world in Stats. Oh, and Serral also beat Kelazhur. The size and scope of Serral's achievement is just in another tier than Scarlett's victory.
By no means am I trying to minimize Scarlett's achieve or utter domination of the competition with only 4 map losses in the entire tournament. But Serral not only beat one top Korean, he beat three top Koreans of all different races.
Actually, that is exactly what you are doing. Trying to minimize Scarlett's achievement. Everything that came before BUT in that last paragraph is invalidated by what comes after it. I get that Serral is your god and you worship him, but to not even mention Scarlett because YOU think her achievement is not in the same league is just wow.
On August 19 2018 20:50 Clazziquai10 wrote: I feel that while other foreigners have won Korean tourneys before, none has ever looked so dominant while doing so
He did look really strong, but if you look at his wins it wasn't anymore impressive than what Neeb did imo.
Kelazhur - Free win
Innovation - Doesn't respect foreigners and plays standard vs them, so he is susceptible in to players hard-countering him with anti-inno builds. Scarlett beat him with ling cheese and Serral opted for roach/rav cheese. Serral prob spent the majority of his time prepping for either Rogue or Inno as he was bound to beat Kel.
Dark: ZvZ is his weakest matchup.
Stats: Eked out a comeback win.
Kespa Cup in 2016
Neeb 2-0 Rogue, best Zerg in the world. 2-1'd Byun. Nothing special but certainly a stronger player than Kelazhur at the time.
3-2 Pet: PvZ is a tough matchup regardless of the opponent.
3-1 Stats: Stomped the best Toss in the world.
4-0: Trap is strong PvPer.
Both achievements are impressive, but there is a reason the rational folks kept their heads and did not knight Neeb the best player after Kespa cup. It's a lot harder to be consistent vs. the best than mindgame or counterbuild them in one tournament.
You obviously weren't following the scene in 2016 but, Byun was the best player in the world at the time, Rogue was still some Ro8 GSL gatekeeper. Saying Rogue best zerg in the world in 2016 and Byun nothing special compared to Kelazhur proves that you don't know what you are talking about (not being rude, just avoiding people being confused by your comment).
All your other comments tend to show that you're a bit biased towards Neeb but.. You really have to admit that Serral's run was way more impressive.
Rogue #1 was not borne out by results at the time and is a stretch, but he was already a beast and poised to overtake the silver surfers.
No he wasn't lol. He looked like a top 2-3 zerg at the end of 2015. But didn't accomplish much of anything noteworthy in 2016 minus a couple big upsets in proleague.
Even at the start of 2017 he didn't look good. Failing to qualify or losing in the first round of most tournaments before he broke out in GSL season 2.
Okay you're right... Rogue made semis of GSL Finals only 3 months before the Kespa cup, but Life was still in SC2 in late 2015 and my sense of time is f'd.
I'm seriously confused as to who or what you're talking about.
Rogue was a strong zerg, but you're right that he wasn't a top zerg in 2016.
On August 19 2018 17:57 DSh1 wrote: Didn't Dark's winning streak end vs Elazer at Blizzcon? Also the first moment for a foreigner to win it would be Neeb for me at Kespa Cup.
On August 19 2018 21:56 Fbaby wrote:He probably sweeps 80% of his Bo3+ matches against foreigners (would love to have stats on this), and he gives the impression of being a more complete player, with no real weaknesses. Neeb wasn't so dominant.
Serral has now won 93.98% (78-5) of his bo3+ matches against foreigners since the 4.0 patch 9 months ago. And he's actually won his last 40 (being 107-12, 89,92% in games) in the six months.
The impression is quite accurate.
Edit. Oh you were just talking about the sweeps. Had a look and during that time 59 of his 78 series wins (75.64%) have been sweeps.
On August 19 2018 11:43 esReveR wrote: I don't see any mention of Scarlett's IEM Pyeongchang win on Korean soil.
I mean...one bo7 against sOs and a bo5 against Serral doesn't really say much. As impressive as it was, that win also took place when PvZ was more than a little lopsided.
She also beat Time and Elazer in a bo5 to win that as well. Not exactly scrubs.
PvZ was more in the Zergs favor around that time but, this is sOs ffs.
Not to mention Scarlett followed that up with an impressive GSL run to the ro8
I almost always cheer for Scarlett (unless against Neeb), and I really hoped for a better result than the ro8 (even though ro8 was quite impressive), but I still try to look at the results objectively. Scarlett beat two top foreigners, and a good up and coming TIME. Scarlett destroyed sOs, who was and is always very good.
However, Scarlett only beat on top P in sOs. Serral, on the other hand, destroyed a top 3 Terran in Innovation, top 3 Zerg in Dark, crushed the best player in the world in a bo1, and played a very back and forth series with the best Protoss in the world in Stats. Oh, and Serral also beat Kelazhur. The size and scope of Serral's achievement is just in another tier than Scarlett's victory.
By no means am I trying to minimize Scarlett's achieve or utter domination of the competition with only 4 map losses in the entire tournament. But Serral not only beat one top Korean, he beat three top Koreans of all different races.
Actually, that is exactly what you are doing. Trying to minimize Scarlett's achievement. Everything that came before BUT in that last paragraph is invalidated by what comes after it. I get that Serral is your god and you worship him, but to not even mention Scarlett because YOU think her achievement is not in the same league is just wow.
So....you think that Scarlett's win was equivalent to Serral's?
The posters on this board who have seen my posts know that I am an ardent foreign supporter. My favourites are actually Neeb and Scarlett.
But I try my best to keep my biases in check and to look at who the player played and what kind of form they were in.
The fact is simply that Scarlett played fewer Koreans and fewer top players than Serral. It's like saying that Neeb's ro8 run was as impressive as Scarlett's ro8 run. It's not saying that either player wasn't impressive, but that one player's was clearly more impresssive than the other.
So I ask the question again: do you think Scarlett's win was the same in quality and difficulty as Serral's? Because if so, I think you might need to check your own bias as to how good those players really are.
On August 19 2018 20:44 RealityTheGreat wrote: Naniwa...Sad... Why not mention Jim?
Did Jim ever get close to winning a big tournament? I must say I can't remember. Also it's kind of sad but Naniwa seem like a legit asshole, can't say I feel too bad for him.
On August 19 2018 20:44 RealityTheGreat wrote: Naniwa...Sad... Why not mention Jim?
Did Jim ever get close to winning a big tournament? I must say I can't remember. Also it's kind of sad but Naniwa seem like a legit asshole, can't say I feel too bad for him.
Not close really, but his IEM Shenzhen run could probably fit in the OP?
Though I don't remember how impressive his play looked, or how crushing the defeat was. (And not going to now spend hours re-watching all the games)
Why do writers, whenever they mention Naniwa's performances have to include he was controversial? He may have been controversial for some people but he also did things his own way. In a world where people give talking points & tote the expected to often boring or predictable path, to some Naniwa's 'controversies' were simply him being real. But nope, we can't have that or they'll be vilified for life, we need everyone to follow the same path. But what does that even have to do with his SC2 gameplay? Why not just state his achievements & leave it at that? Him being "controversial" adds nothing to this piece. I just think its a lazy narrative that only serves to slight his achievements. Case in point, you don't read that Stephano was brilliant & an innovator but yet an alcoholic. When mentioning Scarlett you don't preface her achievements with well, I won't go there. Special or Major has a history of controversies but no one ever seems to mention that. If Kane had ever become 1 of the best, would you write of his physical condition too? Maybe i just haven't had my morning coffee yet, but if you're gonna write a piece about Starcraft than just make it about that. It's the games that mattered. But yeah, Serral's performance was amazing lol.
On August 19 2018 11:43 esReveR wrote: I don't see any mention of Scarlett's IEM Pyeongchang win on Korean soil.
I mean...one bo7 against sOs and a bo5 against Serral doesn't really say much. As impressive as it was, that win also took place when PvZ was more than a little lopsided.
She also beat Time and Elazer in a bo5 to win that as well. Not exactly scrubs.
PvZ was more in the Zergs favor around that time but, this is sOs ffs.
Not to mention Scarlett followed that up with an impressive GSL run to the ro8
I almost always cheer for Scarlett (unless against Neeb), and I really hoped for a better result than the ro8 (even though ro8 was quite impressive), but I still try to look at the results objectively. Scarlett beat two top foreigners, and a good up and coming TIME. Scarlett destroyed sOs, who was and is always very good.
However, Scarlett only beat on top P in sOs. Serral, on the other hand, destroyed a top 3 Terran in Innovation, top 3 Zerg in Dark, crushed the best player in the world in a bo1, and played a very back and forth series with the best Protoss in the world in Stats. Oh, and Serral also beat Kelazhur. The size and scope of Serral's achievement is just in another tier than Scarlett's victory.
By no means am I trying to minimize Scarlett's achieve or utter domination of the competition with only 4 map losses in the entire tournament. But Serral not only beat one top Korean, he beat three top Koreans of all different races.
Actually, that is exactly what you are doing. Trying to minimize Scarlett's achievement. Everything that came before BUT in that last paragraph is invalidated by what comes after it. I get that Serral is your god and you worship him, but to not even mention Scarlett because YOU think her achievement is not in the same league is just wow.
I don't think it's only the magnitude of the single achievement in Korea that separates them. It's the performance in WCS. Scarlett has been mostly underwhelming, apart from her narrow 2-3 loss vs. Serral. He, on the other hand, has utterly dominated everyone he had to face. Taking that into account, Serral is just on another level. While Scarlett occasionally does well against Koreans but still loses to several foreigners, Serral absolutely dominates the foreign scene and hasn't lost a series vs. a Korean since March (Maru at WESG).
On August 20 2018 02:01 billynasty wrote: Why do writers, whenever they mention Naniwa's performances have to include he was controversial? He may have been controversial for some people but he also did things his own way. In a world where people give talking points & tote the expected to often boring or predictable path, to some Naniwa's 'controversies' were simply him being real. But nope, we can't have that or they'll be vilified for life, we need everyone to follow the same path. But what does that even have to do with his SC2 gameplay? Why not just state his achievements & leave it at that? Him being "controversial" adds nothing to this piece. I just think its a lazy narrative that only serves to slight his achievements. Case in point, you don't read that Stephano was brilliant & an innovator but yet an alcoholic. When mentioning Scarlett you don't preface her achievements with well, I won't go there. Special or Major has a history of controversies but no one ever seems to mention that. If Kane had ever become 1 of the best, would you write of his physical condition too? Maybe i just haven't had my morning coffee yet, but if you're gonna write a piece about Starcraft than just make it about that. It's the games that mattered. But yeah, Serral's performance was amazing lol.
On August 19 2018 20:44 RealityTheGreat wrote: Naniwa...Sad... Why not mention Jim?
Did Jim ever get close to winning a big tournament? I must say I can't remember. Also it's kind of sad but Naniwa seem like a legit asshole, can't say I feel too bad for him.
Not close really, but his IEM Shenzhen run could probably fit in the OP?
Though I don't remember how impressive his play looked, or how crushing the defeat was. (And not going to now spend hours re-watching all the games)
On August 19 2018 20:44 RealityTheGreat wrote: Naniwa...Sad... Why not mention Jim?
As good as Jim was, he was never remotely close to the upper echelon of foreigners. Naniwa at his prime was entirely another level compared any Chinese player. As sad as it sounds, other than maybe in the first 1-1.5 years of Wings, no Chinese player was ever in the range of top tier foreigners. Our guys occasionally show brilliance, like TooDming, iAsonu and TIME did in their primes, but there hasn't been one player that can consistently compete at a high level.
At the time of KeSPA Cup 2016, -KeSPA was fifteen days away from dropping Proleague, and with it would go most of the sc2 divisions of teams in Korea. -Rogue was universally praised, but it was clear to everyone he hadn't yet found that next gear. His Proleague record that year was 13-9, the best of any Zerg. -Zest won three GSLs and an IEM Katowice. He also was KT's ace and captain. -Stats was Proleague's best player that year at 27-9. He all-killed SKT that year and his best matchup in Proleague was PvP.
Between Rogue (Proleague's best Zerg), Zest (4 premiere wins), Stats (Proleague's best player, Cross-Finals champion), and Trap (sOs' understudy), they combined for half as many wins as Neeb's practice partner. In the twilight of KeSPA, that the combined powers of Jin Air and KT got half as much done as a newer pick up from MVP is the chef kisses fingers gif.
So long as we don't undersell Serral's achievement, I think we can fairly knock this essay for recency bias.
On August 19 2018 20:44 RealityTheGreat wrote: Naniwa...Sad... Why not mention Jim?
Because Naniwa was second only to Stephano as a foreigner in the glory days of SC2, and Jim wasn't ever even in the Top 5 (10?) of foreigners. I only wish there was a way to accurately compare Serral and Neeb to the old guard of foreigners who had played against Mvp, Nestea, MC, etc. in the GSL. If Neeb and Serral had excelled during WoL and HotS, I wonder how they'd measure up to Stephano, Naniwa, Jinro, IdrA, HuK, Thorzain, and the other old school foreigners.
On August 19 2018 20:44 RealityTheGreat wrote: Naniwa...Sad... Why not mention Jim?
Because Naniwa was second only to Stephano as a foreigner in the glory days of SC2, and Jim wasn't ever even in the Top 5 (10?) of foreigners. I only wish there was a way to accurately compare Serral and Neeb to the old guard of foreigners who had played against Mvp, Nestea, MC, etc. in the GSL. If Neeb and Serral had excelled during WoL and HotS, I wonder how they'd measure up to Stephano, Naniwa, Jinro, IdrA, HuK, Thorzain, and the other old school foreigners.
In WCS America Season 1, Neeb made the ro16 and took a map off of Polt. In the ro16, he beat HuK in the loser's match and lost 1-2 against Revival in the final match. Had HotS continued longer, and if Neeb had stayed Terran, I think it's safe to say that Neeb could have become one of the best foreign Terrans.
As for Protoss, Neeb's first games were in April of 2015. Just under four months later, he beat Stardust to qualify for WCS Premier season 3. He then went out in the ro32. Now, Stardust was never a top Korean, but he did manage to win WCS EU Season 2 in 2014 as well as reach the ro8 in the prior 2015 season.
On August 19 2018 20:44 RealityTheGreat wrote: Naniwa...Sad... Why not mention Jim?
Because Naniwa was second only to Stephano as a foreigner in the glory days of SC2, and Jim wasn't ever even in the Top 5 (10?) of foreigners. I only wish there was a way to accurately compare Serral and Neeb to the old guard of foreigners who had played against Mvp, Nestea, MC, etc. in the GSL. If Neeb and Serral had excelled during WoL and HotS, I wonder how they'd measure up to Stephano, Naniwa, Jinro, IdrA, HuK, Thorzain, and the other old school foreigners.
In WCS America Season 1, Neeb made the ro16 and took a map off of Polt. In the ro16, he beat HuK in the loser's match and lost 1-2 against Revival in the final match. Had HotS continued longer, and if Neeb had stayed Terran, I think it's safe to say that Neeb could have become one of the best foreign Terrans.
As for Protoss, Neeb's first games were in April of 2015. Just under four months later, he beat Stardust to qualify for WCS Premier season 3. He then went out in the ro32. Now, Stardust was never a top Korean, but he did manage to win WCS EU Season 2 in 2014 as well as reach the ro8 in the prior 2015 season.
To be fair though winning 2013-2014 era NA/EU WCS almost means nothing because the gap was massive.
On August 19 2018 20:44 RealityTheGreat wrote: Naniwa...Sad... Why not mention Jim?
Did Jim ever get close to winning a big tournament? I must say I can't remember. Also it's kind of sad but Naniwa seem like a legit asshole, can't say I feel too bad for him.
Not close really, but his IEM Shenzhen run could probably fit in the OP?
Though I don't remember how impressive his play looked, or how crushing the defeat was. (And not going to now spend hours re-watching all the games)
Irrelevant anyway as Jim isn't white.
As non-white goes Sen is always the one getting forgotten, he is the only one with Lilbow winning than a premier in Hots and the only one without a hard region lock and was one of the top foreigner for a long ass time.
On August 19 2018 20:44 RealityTheGreat wrote: Naniwa...Sad... Why not mention Jim?
Did Jim ever get close to winning a big tournament? I must say I can't remember. Also it's kind of sad but Naniwa seem like a legit asshole, can't say I feel too bad for him.
Not close really, but his IEM Shenzhen run could probably fit in the OP?
Though I don't remember how impressive his play looked, or how crushing the defeat was. (And not going to now spend hours re-watching all the games)
Irrelevant anyway as Jim isn't white.
Eh, Jim's still a foreigner... He's just not as good as other foreigners.
On August 19 2018 20:44 RealityTheGreat wrote: Naniwa...Sad... Why not mention Jim?
Because Naniwa was second only to Stephano as a foreigner in the glory days of SC2, and Jim wasn't ever even in the Top 5 (10?) of foreigners. I only wish there was a way to accurately compare Serral and Neeb to the old guard of foreigners who had played against Mvp, Nestea, MC, etc. in the GSL. If Neeb and Serral had excelled during WoL and HotS, I wonder how they'd measure up to Stephano, Naniwa, Jinro, IdrA, HuK, Thorzain, and the other old school foreigners.
In WCS America Season 1, Neeb made the ro16 and took a map off of Polt. In the ro16, he beat HuK in the loser's match and lost 1-2 against Revival in the final match. Had HotS continued longer, and if Neeb had stayed Terran, I think it's safe to say that Neeb could have become one of the best foreign Terrans.
As for Protoss, Neeb's first games were in April of 2015. Just under four months later, he beat Stardust to qualify for WCS Premier season 3. He then went out in the ro32. Now, Stardust was never a top Korean, but he did manage to win WCS EU Season 2 in 2014 as well as reach the ro8 in the prior 2015 season.
To be fair though winning 2013-2014 era NA/EU WCS almost means nothing because the gap was massive.
True, which is why taking a game of Polt and Revival was a big thing.
Also, the post I was responding to specifically talked about the older foreign players, so the presence of a gap is irrelevant.
On August 19 2018 13:43 argonautdice wrote: my prediction is serral won't win wcs Montreal or blizzcon but he'll do well.
People arent going to bother with predicting whether he'll win Montreal.
I'm pretty curious how the betting sites will set the lines for Montreal.
Serral getting better-than-even odds to win it all seems like a lock—it's just a matter of HOW ridiculously favored he becomes.
Historically, players who win an event like this often have a small lull in performance. Given the state of Neeb's pvz, and the fact that he is probably practicing insanely hard since he made it to GSL, I would look at neeb for a potential upset at one of those venues.
On August 19 2018 18:05 TheDougler wrote: In the list of foriegner heart breaks, in my mind none is more tragic than Grubby, after winning a stunning upset over the Boss Toss himself in an epic Phoenix vs Phoenix pvp, where MC dared to try to outmicro one of the best WC3 players of all time, he went up against Sting, who had made it out of his group 3-2 and a better map score than Tefel who also went 3-2, only to beat lucifron 3-2, then Yugioh the gatekeeper of Code A 3-2, then Vortix 3-2, and finally in the finals of IEM Singapore, defeated Grubby 3-2, and then disappeared into the night. Never to be heard from again.
Anyways, congrats to Serral, it was a magnificent run. I thought for sure he'd collapse after going down 0-2 against Stats.
I think Scarlett vs Trap at MLG 2014 has got to be the most heartbreaking. Scarlett was on a magical run after beating Beating DRG with protoss and Life in zvz, she was going to face Polt next in her strongest matchup, ZvT. Not too many weeks later she beat Polt like 6-1 at that weird Red Bull tournament. Eveyrthing was set, game three on Frost She has a massive worker advantage with mass muta, somehow doesn't break trap, DT's wreck two expansions and somehow Trap manages to win.
On August 20 2018 05:46 veniss wrote: Long time lurker, first time poster.
At the time of KeSPA Cup 2016, -KeSPA was fifteen days away from dropping Proleague, and with it would go most of the sc2 divisions of teams in Korea. -Rogue was universally praised, but it was clear to everyone he hadn't yet found that next gear. His Proleague record that year was 13-9, the best of any Zerg. -Zest won three GSLs and an IEM Katowice. He also was KT's ace and captain. -Stats was Proleague's best player that year at 27-9. He all-killed SKT that year and his best matchup in Proleague was PvP.
Between Rogue (Proleague's best Zerg), Zest (4 premiere wins), Stats (Proleague's best player, Cross-Finals champion), and Trap (sOs' understudy), they combined for half as many wins as Neeb's practice partner. In the twilight of KeSPA, that the combined powers of Jin Air and KT got half as much done as a newer pick up from MVP is the chef kisses fingers gif.
So long as we don't undersell Serral's achievement, I think we can fairly knock this essay for recency bias.
I agree Neeb's win was extremely impressive, but I do feel there Serrel's win is legitimately better. Clearly Neeb won his tournament off of a better understanding of the PvP meta, iirc this was still pretty early in LotV and the PvP meta was still getting figured out and changing, Neeb played a more correct meta and the Koreans had no answer in that tournament.
On August 20 2018 05:46 veniss wrote: Long time lurker, first time poster.
At the time of KeSPA Cup 2016, -KeSPA was fifteen days away from dropping Proleague, and with it would go most of the sc2 divisions of teams in Korea. -Rogue was universally praised, but it was clear to everyone he hadn't yet found that next gear. His Proleague record that year was 13-9, the best of any Zerg. -Zest won three GSLs and an IEM Katowice. He also was KT's ace and captain. -Stats was Proleague's best player that year at 27-9. He all-killed SKT that year and his best matchup in Proleague was PvP.
Between Rogue (Proleague's best Zerg), Zest (4 premiere wins), Stats (Proleague's best player, Cross-Finals champion), and Trap (sOs' understudy), they combined for half as many wins as Neeb's practice partner. In the twilight of KeSPA, that the combined powers of Jin Air and KT got half as much done as a newer pick up from MVP is the chef kisses fingers gif.
So long as we don't undersell Serral's achievement, I think we can fairly knock this essay for recency bias.
I agree Neeb's win was extremely impressive, but I do feel there Serrel's win is legitimately better. Clearly Neeb won his tournament off of a better understanding of the PvP meta, iirc this was still pretty early in LotV and the PvP meta was still getting figured out and changing, Neeb played a more correct meta and the Koreans had no answer in that tournament.
Actually Stats countered Neeb's disruptor play perfectly with phoenix in their first game but somehow stopped doing so in the following 3 games.
On August 19 2018 20:44 RealityTheGreat wrote: Naniwa...Sad... Why not mention Jim?
Did Jim ever get close to winning a big tournament? I must say I can't remember. Also it's kind of sad but Naniwa seem like a legit asshole, can't say I feel too bad for him.
IEM8 Shenzhen Jim defeated Life and Taeja in group,and then defeated San in Quarterfinal,Stopped by Solar.It may be the best achievement of foreign player in 2014? And it is seemed that Sen is also forgotten?Maybe his best archievement is in BL-Infector era.
On August 20 2018 15:43 Anc13nt wrote: I hope there will be a Neeb vs Serral final at Montreal. That would be really hype and I think that Neeb's style matches well against Serral's.
I've been waiting for that to happen all year long at a WCS event. Neeb's PvZ is world class, I would bet it's top 5 at the moment, even among the Koreans. The thing with Neeb is that the longer the game goes, the stronger he becomes and the more hard it becomes to beat him. Dark knew this and cheesed him/threw weird strats at him. Serral is more standard and macro is also his strength, so it kinda plays to Neeb's strengths. Too bad Neeb runs into a Protoss and gets eliminated before that could happen.
In comparison, Serral faced elite players in all three matchups (INnoVation, Dark and Stats represent a top three Korean Terran, top two Korean Zerg, and the best Korean Protoss), and absolutely demolished two of them
Only half serious here, but dark and inno also represent ro16 players in code s :D (in inno's case top3 korean terran might not even be true, he should stop playing lol)
On August 19 2018 11:19 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: he ended up winning the championship with a victory against Trap, a player firmly mired in Korea's middle-class
I feel this speaks too lowly of Trap. Since that KeSPa Cup he has been ro16 every season in GSL, never finishing worse than 3rd in his group. That basically makes him consistently top 12 World for 2 years. But I get it the point. Just seems a bit forced. Everyone knows Neeb wasn't challenged by a top tier Terran, but beating Rogue too. Rogue looked like he was slumping, but maybe Neeb made him look like he was slumping. Rogue was still top 4 zerg at the time.
Anyway, not trying to say Serral's achievement wasn't more impressive.
Serral also beat Maru in the team match. If you consider Stats to be the best Protoss player in the world, then technically, Serral beat the best Terran in the world and the best Protoss in the world.
I consider Dark to be the second best Zerg in Korea, after Rogue. So Serral also beat the second best Zerg in Korea.
On August 20 2018 15:43 Anc13nt wrote: I hope there will be a Neeb vs Serral final at Montreal. That would be really hype and I think that Neeb's style matches well against Serral's.
The thing with Neeb is that the longer the game goes, the stronger he becomes and the more hard it becomes to beat him. Dark knew this and cheesed him/threw weird strats at him. Serral is more standard and macro is also his strength, so it kinda plays to Neeb's strengths.
The thing with Serral on the other hand is that he's said and shown that he does actually do quite a bit of preparation for his series. So Serral might very well go with a similar strategy as Dark did against neeb, at least to some degree. Would certainly be interesting to see how the match would go.
On August 20 2018 05:46 veniss wrote: Long time lurker, first time poster.
At the time of KeSPA Cup 2016, -KeSPA was fifteen days away from dropping Proleague, and with it would go most of the sc2 divisions of teams in Korea. -Rogue was universally praised, but it was clear to everyone he hadn't yet found that next gear. His Proleague record that year was 13-9, the best of any Zerg. -Zest won three GSLs and an IEM Katowice. He also was KT's ace and captain. -Stats was Proleague's best player that year at 27-9. He all-killed SKT that year and his best matchup in Proleague was PvP.
Between Rogue (Proleague's best Zerg), Zest (4 premiere wins), Stats (Proleague's best player, Cross-Finals champion), and Trap (sOs' understudy), they combined for half as many wins as Neeb's practice partner. In the twilight of KeSPA, that the combined powers of Jin Air and KT got half as much done as a newer pick up from MVP is the chef kisses fingers gif.
So long as we don't undersell Serral's achievement, I think we can fairly knock this essay for recency bias.
I agree Neeb's win was extremely impressive, but I do feel there Serrel's win is legitimately better. Clearly Neeb won his tournament off of a better understanding of the PvP meta, iirc this was still pretty early in LotV and the PvP meta was still getting figured out and changing, Neeb played a more correct meta and the Koreans had no answer in that tournament.
At bottom, I think we value different things. Neeb either invented or refined the PvP meta so well (I recall he and Puck really liked disruptors and both players made a grip of them back in the day) Neeb rode it to #1 on the KR server and a foreigner's first SC2 win on Korean soil. He was so dominant then that he achieved a thing that never happened before.