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On October 11 2018 05:32 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2018 05:25 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote: Mvp was dominating before Kespa arrived to sc2. Life was still dominating after Kespa has arrived. That is the biggest difference. well, the elephant in the room was more like a cockroach, I was around during the kespa switch and they didn't dominate at all, if anything they got trashed long enough that it didn't matter if they were kespa or not when they got good.
I was around from the beginning of sc2. And ofc anyone who started sc2 for a month can't be competing in the highest level. They definitely needs time, and the level was definitely the most competitive ever in sc2 when Kespa teams were in sc2. In Korea, most of fans claim 'what if Mvp has started sc2 with other kespa players at the same time?'
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On October 11 2018 05:32 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2018 05:25 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote: Mvp was dominating before Kespa arrived to sc2. Life was still dominating after Kespa has arrived. That is the biggest difference. well, the elephant in the room was more like a cockroach, I was around during the kespa switch and they didn't dominate at all, if anything they got trashed long enough that it didn't matter if they were kespa or not when they got good. From HotS release until the disbandment of Kespa teams the only non-elephant Starleague winners were Life, Maru and ByuN. most of the top esf players either left korea (TaeJa, Bomber, MC, MMA, Mvp) or fell into mediocrity following the Kespa switch (Leenock, Creator, Marineking, DRG) The elephant in the room article was of course exaggerated but it's undeniable that Kespa players were on average superior to esf players.
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And also many ppl don't know that Mvp is also from Kespa BW team. He just switched to sc2 earlier than 95% of Kespa players and that's all.
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On October 11 2018 05:56 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote: And also many ppl don't know that Mvp is also from Kespa BW team. He just switched to sc2 earlier than 95% of Kespa players and that's all.
Which is however irrelevant and this was even discussed in the elephant article. People leaving BW and KeSPA environment to try SC2 was something completely different from the whole teams with top players and infrastructure coming to the game.
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On October 12 2018 00:40 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2018 05:56 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote: And also many ppl don't know that Mvp is also from Kespa BW team. He just switched to sc2 earlier than 95% of Kespa players and that's all. Which is however irrelevant and this was even discussed in the elephant article. People leaving BW and KeSPA environment to try SC2 was something completely different from the whole teams with top players and infrastructure coming to the game. Is it though? A lot of the best sc2 players during WoL were low level or failed BW players. I'm no expert on BW, but from what I understand Mvp was like the only top level player who switched over right away.
It could very well have been that Mvp was merely a post-kespa switch player before his time. Becuase once the switch happened almost all the players Mvp dominated ended up getting crushed by kespa players just as hard.
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On October 12 2018 01:54 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2018 00:40 opisska wrote:On October 11 2018 05:56 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote: And also many ppl don't know that Mvp is also from Kespa BW team. He just switched to sc2 earlier than 95% of Kespa players and that's all. Which is however irrelevant and this was even discussed in the elephant article. People leaving BW and KeSPA environment to try SC2 was something completely different from the whole teams with top players and infrastructure coming to the game. Is it though? A lot of the best sc2 players during WoL were low level or failed BW players. I'm no expert on BW, but from what I understand Mvp was like the only top level player who switched over right away. It could very well have been that Mvp was merely a post-kespa switch player before his time. Becuase once the switch happened almost all the players Mvp dominated ended up getting crushed by kespa players just as hard.
Mvp was a KeSPA BW player, but he was by no means a top BW player. There were many people on KeSPA teams who never accomplished much and he was one of them. That is the key difference between those players and the real "KeSPA switch" when the real top guns came, along with all the teams and infrastructure. Again, this is all explicitly acknowledged in the very article that this whole "elephant" thing comes from and is nothing surprising.
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On October 18 2018 03:36 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2018 01:54 Fango wrote:On October 12 2018 00:40 opisska wrote:On October 11 2018 05:56 RandomOnlyTheHumanLf wrote: And also many ppl don't know that Mvp is also from Kespa BW team. He just switched to sc2 earlier than 95% of Kespa players and that's all. Which is however irrelevant and this was even discussed in the elephant article. People leaving BW and KeSPA environment to try SC2 was something completely different from the whole teams with top players and infrastructure coming to the game. Is it though? A lot of the best sc2 players during WoL were low level or failed BW players. I'm no expert on BW, but from what I understand Mvp was like the only top level player who switched over right away. It could very well have been that Mvp was merely a post-kespa switch player before his time. Becuase once the switch happened almost all the players Mvp dominated ended up getting crushed by kespa players just as hard. Mvp was a KeSPA BW player, but he was by no means a top BW player. There were many people on KeSPA teams who never accomplished much and he was one of them. That is the key difference between those players and the real "KeSPA switch" when the real top guns came, along with all the teams and infrastructure. Again, this is all explicitly acknowledged in the very article that this whole "elephant" thing comes from and is nothing surprising. Mvp was certainly a top BW player compared to the rest of SC2's elite during 2010-2011? That's the point I was making. Most of the players who dominated post kespa switch (INno, Dear, Rain, Soulkey, herO, sOs etc) weren't exactly gods in broodwar either, but they still ended up being better than most who were playing sc2 from it's beginning.
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France12466 Posts
Not really... there were just more of them so they seemed to do better because statistically more of them would be successful but esf players did pretty fine.
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The top dogs from bw were not good, flash wasn't good, jd wasn't good, the elephant article is just flat out wrong, Mvp is still the smartest sc2 player to ever touch the game.
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France12466 Posts
JD was very successful at farming foreign tournies, which isn't that easy. He didn't win big in KR but he got big paychecks so imo it's been a successful switch for him, albeit not as great as we could have hoped.
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On October 18 2018 04:31 IshinShishi wrote: The top dogs from bw were not good, flash wasn't good, jd wasn't good, the elephant article is just flat out wrong, Mvp is still the smartest sc2 player to ever touch the game. The top dogs at the point the article was written were not that good in sc2. The soon-to-be top dogs ended up dominating sc2. The writer just assumed for some reason that flash and jd would keep winning forever but they would've been probably surpassed by the new generation anyway even if the switch didn't happen.
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On October 18 2018 05:00 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2018 04:31 IshinShishi wrote: The top dogs from bw were not good, flash wasn't good, jd wasn't good, the elephant article is just flat out wrong, Mvp is still the smartest sc2 player to ever touch the game. The top dogs at the point the article was written were not that good in sc2. The soon-to-be top dogs ended up dominating sc2. The writer just assumed for some reason that flash and jd would keep winning forever but they would've been probably surpassed by the new generation anyway even if the switch didn't happen. Do you even watch bw? Flash was never surpassed, he is still the best by a mile.
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On October 18 2018 04:31 IshinShishi wrote: The top dogs from bw were not good, flash wasn't good, jd wasn't good, the elephant article is just flat out wrong, Mvp is still the smartest sc2 player to ever touch the game. What? JD and Flash weren't bad at all. They did quite well. Of course they didn't went godmode again but they competed on a top level. This being said the "elephant in the room"-expectation did only fulfill to some extent. The likes of Rain, Inno, Soulkey, sOs, soO, Classic all showed dominance for some time. But there almost always was a similar amount of esf-players who where able to do the same. Taeja, Parting, Life (!), Maru, Byun, Dream, Dark, Byul...
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On October 18 2018 06:19 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2018 04:31 IshinShishi wrote: The top dogs from bw were not good, flash wasn't good, jd wasn't good, the elephant article is just flat out wrong, Mvp is still the smartest sc2 player to ever touch the game. What? JD and Flash weren't bad at all. They did quite well. Of course they didn't went godmode again but they competed on a top level. This being said the "elephant in the room"-expectation did only fulfill to some extent. The likes of Rain, Inno, Soulkey, sOs, soO, Classic all showed dominance for some time. But there almost always was a similar amount of esf-players who where able to do the same. Taeja, Parting, Life (!), Maru, Byun, Dream, Dark, Byul...
Dream and Dark are ESF players?
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On October 18 2018 06:20 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2018 06:19 fronkschnonk wrote:On October 18 2018 04:31 IshinShishi wrote: The top dogs from bw were not good, flash wasn't good, jd wasn't good, the elephant article is just flat out wrong, Mvp is still the smartest sc2 player to ever touch the game. What? JD and Flash weren't bad at all. They did quite well. Of course they didn't went godmode again but they competed on a top level. This being said the "elephant in the room"-expectation did only fulfill to some extent. The likes of Rain, Inno, Soulkey, sOs, soO, Classic all showed dominance for some time. But there almost always was a similar amount of esf-players who where able to do the same. Taeja, Parting, Life (!), Maru, Byun, Dream, Dark, Byul... Dream and Dark are ESF players?
Well..,if you want to get technical, Dark was on Slayers before Kespa arrived which wasn't a part of esf from what I recall. He wasn't an Elephant though. Here's some rare footage of him going up against Taeja while still on Slayers:
+ Show Spoiler +
Dream was on MVP way back in the day before Kespa's arrival. He first started to get on the radar when he eliminated Rain from code A and made it to the finals of IEM Katowice 2013 (where he stomped PartinG along the way and played an amazing series against First). Speaking of Dream, I'd imagine his miltary service should be up soon. Hope he returns as he was quite young much like Maru and surely still has many years left in him.
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That's actually quite interesting how I have formed the idea that both came with SKT so firmly that I didn't even feel like checking it.
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On October 18 2018 05:28 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2018 05:00 Charoisaur wrote:On October 18 2018 04:31 IshinShishi wrote: The top dogs from bw were not good, flash wasn't good, jd wasn't good, the elephant article is just flat out wrong, Mvp is still the smartest sc2 player to ever touch the game. The top dogs at the point the article was written were not that good in sc2. The soon-to-be top dogs ended up dominating sc2. The writer just assumed for some reason that flash and jd would keep winning forever but they would've been probably surpassed by the new generation anyway even if the switch didn't happen. Do you even watch bw? Flash was never surpassed, he is still the best by a mile. read: "surpassed by the new generation". There isn't a new generation in BW.
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On October 18 2018 06:19 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2018 04:31 IshinShishi wrote: The top dogs from bw were not good, flash wasn't good, jd wasn't good, the elephant article is just flat out wrong, Mvp is still the smartest sc2 player to ever touch the game. What? JD and Flash weren't bad at all. They did quite well. Of course they didn't went godmode again but they competed on a top level. This being said the "elephant in the room"-expectation did only fulfill to some extent. The likes of Rain, Inno, Soulkey, sOs, soO, Classic all showed dominance for some time. But there almost always was a similar amount of esf-players who where able to do the same. Taeja, Parting, Life (!), Maru, Byun, Dream, Dark, Byul... TaeJa only had success in foreign tournaments, Dark only became good after years on a Kespa team so he's not really an argument for the skill level being just as high Pre-Kespa switch. Dream, ByuN and ByuL had a few strong runs but couldn't keep it up. PartinG, Life and Maru were like the only esf players who were regularly able to compete with the top Kespa players. on the other hand there's a long list of players who went from championship contenters to at best gatekeepers after the Kespa switch like Leenock, Creator, Marineking or DRG.
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I just realized, that article title is wrong. LOL. Must be GSL Place in Maru's History.
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On October 18 2018 08:07 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2018 06:19 fronkschnonk wrote:On October 18 2018 04:31 IshinShishi wrote: The top dogs from bw were not good, flash wasn't good, jd wasn't good, the elephant article is just flat out wrong, Mvp is still the smartest sc2 player to ever touch the game. What? JD and Flash weren't bad at all. They did quite well. Of course they didn't went godmode again but they competed on a top level. This being said the "elephant in the room"-expectation did only fulfill to some extent. The likes of Rain, Inno, Soulkey, sOs, soO, Classic all showed dominance for some time. But there almost always was a similar amount of esf-players who where able to do the same. Taeja, Parting, Life (!), Maru, Byun, Dream, Dark, Byul... TaeJa only had success in foreign tournaments, Dark only became good after years on a Kespa team so he's not really an argument for the skill level being just as high Pre-Kespa switch. Dream, ByuN and ByuL had a few strong runs but couldn't keep it up. PartinG, Life and Maru were like the only esf players who were regularly able to compete with the top Kespa players. on the other hand there's a long list of players who went from championship contenters to at best gatekeepers after the Kespa switch like Leenock, Creator, Marineking or DRG. I'm not saying that there was no impact at all. But it's just plainly wrong to say that pre-kespa SC2 champions were only the guys who couldn't make it in Broodwar. For Taeja: he was successful against top korean competition again and again - including many top tier kespa players. For Dark: it doesn't matter when Dark became good. He is a proof that being an pre-kespa player doesn't say anything about one's skill potential. That kespa was far better off infrastructurally and financially is not the point of this discussion. Dream was great and probably would've gotten back to the top if kespa teams didn't disband. He had a hard time transitioning to LotV but was on an upswing again, but then SKT1 was no more which he obviously wasn't able to cope with.
Let's take a look at the kespa greats: They aren't that stable all together either. soO, Inno and sOs are slumping for quite some time now. Soulkey faded away until he transitioned back to Broodwar. Rogue is also not doing great these days. The only stable right now are Classic, Zest and TY.
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