Maru is showing a ton of his builds and playstyle habits while weekend warriors have their playbook relatively well-hidden.
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time
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Pentarp
186 Posts
Maru is showing a ton of his builds and playstyle habits while weekend warriors have their playbook relatively well-hidden. | ||
Balnazza
Germany685 Posts
And yet pretty much every competition worth anything is played with a prep format. Do you mean in SC2, Esports or in general sports? Because in all three cases you are mostly incorrect. SC2: GSL is basically the only "prep" tournament (or as I would call it "tournament that is stretched out for months for no real purpose anymore"). Katowice, World Championships, even the regionals that give out double+ the money of GSL as of now are not that stretched. Esports: LoL stretches later rounds in its competition, but mostly so that the important matches are on the weekend. Most other Esports however use a weekender or otherwise "compact" system. General sports: Teamsports are, depending on the sport, more stretched out than others, but that is less of a preparation-thing and again has more to do with hype and good slots and less with preparation. There is also the logistics part, teams need to travel and often play in multiple leagues at the same time. Or there is some kind of "Best-Of-X"-System in play (like in US-Sports). What are the biggest solo 1v1 sports? Anything Fighting related (which is, if we ignore the big "showy" sports, tournament-based), Chess and Tennis. Well, guess what, Chess and Tennis are also weekenders/week-long tournaments, except for the Chess World Championship. That is the only "prep-tournament" I would compare to GSL, but compared to that GSL looks kind of like a weekender again. Lastly, just as a funfact: The timespan between the 2nd GSL round and the Final 4 day is 14 days in GSL '24 S1. The timespan between the start of the playoffs in Europe '23 S3 and the Grand Finals are ten days. This year, GSL is only two weeks-ish longer than the European Regional in total. That's...nothing? So what, European Regional is a prep tournament now? | ||
Yoshi Kirishima
United States10149 Posts
On April 18 2024 04:57 Charoisaur wrote: That's only true if you don't consider the ability to prepare well a skill. I do. Preparing well is a skill yes, but preparing is still part of a weekender tournament format too. You just have to prepare in advance and have less time to prepare between matches during the tournament, making it much harder of a format. Having a lot of skill, knowledge, builds, etc. memorized is advantageous for weekender formats where you don't have ample time to comfortably prepare. If you gave everyone 1 year to prepare for every match, and the first round was a group stage of only Bo3, then wouldn't it increase the chances of lower level players to beat higher level players? I think that means that constraining the amount of prep time you have means there is a higher skill ceiling. On April 18 2024 06:23 JJH777 wrote: And yet pretty much every competition worth anything is played with a prep format. Prep gives players the opportunity to play at their peak. Finding holes in the other person's play is part of it (but not a part Maru is particularly good at anyways) but the bigger thing is optimizing your own play. No weekend tournament bo5/bo7 is going to have a player who plays a completely different heavily optimized build on every map. It just doesn't happen in weekend events. Meanwhile it happens (or at least used to when GSL paid more) all the time in GSL. Prep provides the opportunity for peak condition/optimization. Weekend tournaments is the best you can do within poor circumstances. Peak vs peak is far more interesting. Yep very fair points. I don't disagree at all that people enjoy watching people be able to play closer to their peaks to be clear. Coming up with optimized strategies and pulling out builds for a weekender format naturally results in a higher possible ceiling than when everyone has more time to play near their peak however. It doesn't mean it can't be done, it's just harder with less time. But a theoretical person could do that and stand above the rest. An example is if you played chess and each player had an infinite amount of time to make their move. It would suck watching a chess game like that where you have to watch the players think and prepare, and thankfully with a SC2 prep format like GSL you only have to watch them when they've prepped and are ready to play. But i think everyone would agree that chess played with a timer would lead to a higher skill ceiling because the amount of time you have to think and prepare is constrained. The more skilled and experienced players would win. (Btw though WCS, IEM Kato, etc. are all worth something for sure, and for a long time in SC2 smaller weekender tournies were also worth something as shown by the viewership, audience, hype, and glory those tournaments got. They had smaller prize pools sure but you also can win that money in much less time than a prep tourny, so it's pretty proportional). On April 18 2024 06:10 Mizenhauer wrote: One could also easily argue that since Code S takes place over a number of weeks/months that it is more difficult to be consistent because you need to maintain your form for such a long time. Or you can just make definitive statements without any evidence. That's fine as well. While that's a fair argument, how difficult it is to be consistent over a long period (and how that might make it harder to win a Code S), is different from the point I was trying to make specifically about what tournament format allows for the highest possible skill ceiling. I'd like to be careful to avoid conflating them. A superman fighting 100 batmans with 50 years of preparation over a span of 10 years may be hard, but no one is going to think that the batmans are better than the superman, even if one of them defeats the superman. It would be very impressive for the superman to come out on top sure, but that's a separate point. I think that's a pretty understandable concept and isn't really any kind of "definitive statement". Also, I didn't know we had to include evidence with each post or opinion we share on this forum, if so your post seems to be missing evidence as well On your point though, I think one could also argue that maintaining your form to peak during a small period of 2-3 days that others are trying to also bring their best form to, could also be as difficult as it is to maintain your form consistently over a couple months that others are also trying to maintain their form consistently. Constraining it to a smaller period brings more volatility. | ||
JJH777
United States4282 Posts
On April 18 2024 11:14 Balnazza wrote: Do you mean in SC2, Esports or in general sports? Because in all three cases you are mostly incorrect. SC2: GSL is basically the only "prep" tournament (or as I would call it "tournament that is stretched out for months for no real purpose anymore"). Katowice, World Championships, even the regionals that give out double+ the money of GSL as of now are not that stretched. Esports: LoL stretches later rounds in its competition, but mostly so that the important matches are on the weekend. Most other Esports however use a weekender or otherwise "compact" system. General sports: Teamsports are, depending on the sport, more stretched out than others, but that is less of a preparation-thing and again has more to do with hype and good slots and less with preparation. There is also the logistics part, teams need to travel and often play in multiple leagues at the same time. Or there is some kind of "Best-Of-X"-System in play (like in US-Sports). What are the biggest solo 1v1 sports? Anything Fighting related (which is, if we ignore the big "showy" sports, tournament-based), Chess and Tennis. Well, guess what, Chess and Tennis are also weekenders/week-long tournaments, except for the Chess World Championship. That is the only "prep-tournament" I would compare to GSL, but compared to that GSL looks kind of like a weekender again. Lastly, just as a funfact: The timespan between the 2nd GSL round and the Final 4 day is 14 days in GSL '24 S1. The timespan between the start of the playoffs in Europe '23 S3 and the Grand Finals are ten days. This year, GSL is only two weeks-ish longer than the European Regional in total. That's...nothing? So what, European Regional is a prep tournament now? I was talking in general in competition. Obviously not in SC2. At least since proleague ended. Team sports you already conceded though with caveats I don't fully agree with. They want strategy to be a big part of it and the only way that's possible is with prep. It's not just about time slots/hype/logistics. They definitely believe (correctly imo) prep leads to better play. Chess also has prep outside of the world championship. The tournament that chooses the challenger for the world champion is only 8 players and 3 weeks long. That's longer than the top 8 of GSL. Most major chess tournaments are at least 2 weeks long. The qualifiers may be the brutal SC2 structure but in the tournaments themselves they give prep time. While it's not as long as GSL that's far different than the typical 3 days for SC2 tournaments. Tennis is the same again multiple weeks long at least for all the major events. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20731 Posts
What about the games in actuality? Is this prep actually resulting in higher level StarCraft? I’d argue not really at all, and I don’t think it has in quite a while now. I mean I’d say Serral pulled more tailored plans out of the pocket in his Katowice done (that gold/roach build versus Dark was especially nice) than we saw in the GSL finals day. If we consider a combination of a lesser overall field of real contenders, much of the field being confirmed way, way out for the tournament, and the prize pool. I mean you’re probably seeing far more prep for that tournament than GSL these days. People have months to gain an edge | ||
tigera6
2909 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6140 Posts
On April 18 2024 11:57 JJH777 wrote: Tennis is the same again multiple weeks long at least for all the major events. Tennis Grand Slams are 2 weeks long which is as short as can be without fatigue of players beeing too big a thing. Also there are hundreds of players competing, not 16. Tennis has been the pinnacle of 1v1 competition for the last decade by a lot of metrics: money, reach, fans, viewers | ||
ejozl
Denmark3169 Posts
On April 18 2024 03:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: This is absolutely the correct take. The more time you have, the more you can prepare, the more you can compensate for a skill gap between you and your opponent, especially when it's possible that opponent is preparing less for you than you are for them. Weekender tournaments with a limited amount of time to prepare between matches naturally lead to a much higher skill ceiling, because the amount of time/preparation is constrained. Anything constrained becomes harder. GSL and preparation tournaments were hard not because it's the highest skill format, it's because people can prepare to snipe you, even people who are considered much less skilled than you. If you win a prep tournament, it is a good testament to your skill that you survived the potential of many people trying their best to overcome the skill gap and snipe you, but the tournament format itself does not lead to the highest skill ceiling possible. It's the age old meme question of "can Batman defeat X with years of preparation?" The preparation is making up for their lack of skill and strength. No one thinks Batman is stronger than Superman for example. This is also why Taeja is underrated these days (at least according to the active posters on TL these days). He was specifically very consistent at winning premiere weekender tournaments, the hardest kind of tournament to be consistent in, and while defeating top HotS players like Innovation, Life, MMA, MC, Zest, sOs, etc. (Some of which would sometimes drown in pools! You don't see them being knocked out Round 1 of GSL do you?) I think there is a bit of a contradiction here, or at least it's only a half truth, like most things. I agree in the sense that if Scarlett takes out Rogue, it might mean that I play Scarlett instead of Rogue, but I'm not sure that makes it easier. Because at the same time, why did Rogue lose to Scarlett, because the tournament is harder to be consistent in, but in another way. Because a less powerful player can construct a plan to beat a more powerful one. And as long as the rules don't change, like the Semi Finals and the Finals being played on the same day in the GSL, then the better preparing player, can continue to prepare better as that player progresses. In the end both players play each other, or should play each other under the same restrictions, so there isn't one type of tournament that is harder than another, though being able to win under any circumstance should constitute the best player. A Leenock type of player who can play an entire weekend event playing at a span of over 12 hours a day, should be recognized for his skill set. And the same with the preparation type player, and even being able to play without their own keyboard and mouse, or playing from home. In the end the player that wins, is the more skilled at winning, and that should be all that matters. And being able to handle jet lag, or taking responsibility of getting there early, so as to not suffer from jet lag is included in this skill set. Personally, I really like preparation style, but it's in no way a superior format, I wish that we can see many differently run tournaments and in that way have different players shine, showcasing these skill sets. | ||
Balnazza
Germany685 Posts
On April 18 2024 11:57 JJH777 wrote: I was talking in general in competition. Obviously not in SC2. At least since proleague ended. Team sports you already conceded though with caveats I don't fully agree with. They want strategy to be a big part of it and the only way that's possible is with prep. It's not just about time slots/hype/logistics. They definitely believe (correctly imo) prep leads to better play. Chess also has prep outside of the world championship. The tournament that chooses the challenger for the world champion is only 8 players and 3 weeks long. That's longer than the top 8 of GSL. Most major chess tournaments are at least 2 weeks long. The qualifiers may be the brutal SC2 structure but in the tournaments themselves they give prep time. While it's not as long as GSL that's far different than the typical 3 days for SC2 tournaments. Tennis is the same again multiple weeks long at least for all the major events. Tennis Grand Slams are two weeks long because you have a massive field of players you physically need to place onto courts that then proceed to play two to three hour long games that are physically draining. I'm of course not saying that SC2 isn't physically draining, but I think we can all agree that going five sets against Djokovic will leave you in a much worse physical state than going five maps against Serral or Maru. Or in other terms: If you said to a Tennis player he had to play Katowice-Style, aka. the entire Ro8 on one day, six out of eight players would probably be collaps before the finals and/or leave the tournament with some kind of injury. With teamsports, it is kind of the same. Sure, US-Sports have generally more preptime, but if needed, they will easily cram as much gameplay as possible in a very short amount of time. To give one example: The European Handball Champions League, THE Handball tournament in the world, plays out their finals in a Final 4 on one weekend. Saturday is the Ro4, Sunday is the Small and Grand Final. World and Europe Cup for nations have the same system. 90% of "prep-time" in general sports comes from the physical challenges and "problems" that come with non-esports. Regeneration, travel, ticket sales and media presentation. Which, if we are honest, is the only reason koreans have this kind of "prep league" in the first place: When the first OSL came around in what, 2001 or something, no one thought "it would be so cool if we gave players enough time to prepare!". The general sound was most likely "sooo...hooow do we stretch this thing out long enough that we can actually fill a TV schedule with it?" | ||
MyLovelyLurker
France730 Posts
On April 18 2024 12:52 WombaT wrote: It’s odd now I think of it, seems pretty obvious. Myself included, we talk about the various on-paper positives of each format What about the games in actuality? Is this prep actually resulting in higher level StarCraft? I’d argue not really at all, and I don’t think it has in quite a while now. I mean I’d say Serral pulled more tailored plans out of the pocket in his Katowice done (that gold/roach build versus Dark was especially nice) than we saw in the GSL finals day. If we consider a combination of a lesser overall field of real contenders, much of the field being confirmed way, way out for the tournament, and the prize pool. I mean you’re probably seeing far more prep for that tournament than GSL these days. People have months to gain an edge I mean pretty much exactly this. People will save their builds and order them by tournament importance. We will probably see vicious competition and pocket builds for Gamers8. That's absolutely the rational thing to do. In practice another case in point everyone remembers : Classic's blink DTs vs Rogue at Blizzcon 2019. In neutral fashion I honestly think we see the highest level of play at large prizepool tournaments Koreans care about, if only because Reynor and Serral are in there as well on top of all the usual suspects. Then it's GSL, but the difference is minuscule anyway. | ||
Yoshi Kirishima
United States10149 Posts
On April 18 2024 18:55 ejozl wrote: I think there is a bit of a contradiction here, or at least it's only a half truth, like most things. I agree in the sense that if Scarlett takes out Rogue, it might mean that I play Scarlett instead of Rogue, but I'm not sure that makes it easier. Because at the same time, why did Rogue lose to Scarlett, because the tournament is harder to be consistent in, but in another way. Because a less powerful player can construct a plan to beat a more powerful one. And as long as the rules don't change, like the Semi Finals and the Finals being played on the same day in the GSL, then the better preparing player, can continue to prepare better as that player progresses. In the end both players play each other, or should play each other under the same restrictions, so there isn't one type of tournament that is harder than another, though being able to win under any circumstance should constitute the best player. A Leenock type of player who can play an entire weekend event playing at a span of over 12 hours a day, should be recognized for his skill set. And the same with the preparation type player, and even being able to play without their own keyboard and mouse, or playing from home. In the end the player that wins, is the more skilled at winning, and that should be all that matters. And being able to handle jet lag, or taking responsibility of getting there early, so as to not suffer from jet lag is included in this skill set. Personally, I really like preparation style, but it's in no way a superior format, I wish that we can see many differently run tournaments and in that way have different players shine, showcasing these skill sets. Yep both tourny formats are hard in their ways and definitely have different skill sets. I do think prep tournies are harder to win because everyone has more time to prep more and play closer to their peak for those games, and thus lower level players could theoretically close the gap. Weekender tournies are harder to win if you're a lower level player cus the gap will just be wide. In that sense, if you're a top pro, you will have the advantage in a weekender tournament where it's harder for lower level players to snipe you. However, the nature of the tourny also leads to more volatility in general, because everyone will be less prepared and less practiced and less rested between matches, so there is that unique aspect giving lower level players a chance to make an upset. On April 18 2024 22:22 MyLovelyLurker wrote: I mean pretty much exactly this. People will save their builds and order them by tournament importance. We will probably see vicious competition and pocket builds for Gamers8. That's absolutely the rational thing to do. In practice another case in point everyone remembers : Classic's blink DTs vs Rogue at Blizzcon 2019. In neutral fashion I honestly think we see the highest level of play at large prizepool tournaments Koreans care about, if only because Reynor and Serral are in there as well on top of all the usual suspects. Then it's GSL, but the difference is minuscule anyway. Great examples. As sad as it makes me, the last GSL finals of hero vs Maru was really disappointing. It didn't feel like it had the level of preparation/polish from other player. It just felt like a GSL Ro8 match. Watching the Creator vs Rogue finals was really hype and intense to me in contrast, for example. Like the game when Creator went adepts vs Rogue, and they just kept fighting back and forth, it was so close and it felt every little micro move had so much weight. The play and unit control was just so cool to watch. It felt like both players were just super confident and prepared. I know this is part of it being played on the same day as the semifinals, and cus GSL has much less on the line with the reduced prizepool and dwindling interest/glory. Just makes me sad that for all the buildup of a GSL season, we're not getting the treat of a week of prep for the GSL finals. And with the smaller prize pool, i guess that might just be OK. It's been a good run | ||
Durnuu
13271 Posts
Of course you can argue the opposite and say players need to "warm up" to put on their best, and players are used to playing 50 games a day anyway. I'll also add that the perceived superiority of prep (which is an opinion I share, not throwing any shade here) is a little biased nowadays, due to 1) prep style tournaments having the stronger field of players overall for the longest time, and 2) old weekenders had strange formats, remember bo3 semis and bo5 finals ? Yeah that wasn't great, of course you'd feel that it's harder to win a decisive 4-1 in GSL semis, rather than a "random" 2-0 for a dreamhack, and that feeling kinda stayed over the years. And a small 3) for proleague, which was undeniably a priority for korean players, a remnant of Broodwar. And then you also had weekenders that were "fun" like HSC, not taken as seriously. And last but not least, but weekenders also used to have a lower prize pool overall, other than the IEM circuit finals (now known as Katowice) and Blizzcon. All little things that contribute to this feeling of "not as skilled / prestigious" that persists to this day. | ||
AmFreak
16 Posts
On April 17 2024 09:54 CicadaSC wrote: nah, preparing for opponents is a skill in and of itself. its an extra layer. Yes, an extra layer that doesn't have to depend on players' skills and thus can skew the outcome. | ||
Cricketer12
United States13835 Posts
On April 24 2024 23:45 AmFreak wrote: Yes, an extra layer that doesn't have to depend on players' skills and thus can skew the outcome. Only if you deny the S in RTS. | ||
AmFreak
16 Posts
Read the thread, instead of writing a snarky reply. It doesn't have to depend, because you can outsource to other people the moment you have actual time to prepare. If you have infrastructure behind you like a team, a coach, training partners playing that style etc. you have a clear advantage against someone on his own that you wouldn't have (or to a far smaller degree) in a "normal" tourney. Thus it depends less on your own skill than tournaments where you can't use that infrastructure. | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15616 Posts
On April 25 2024 02:10 AmFreak wrote: Read the thread, instead of writing a snarky reply. It doesn't have to depend, because you can outsource to other people the moment you have actual time to prepare. If you have infrastructure behind you like a team, a coach, training partners playing that style etc. you have a clear advantage against someone on his own that you wouldn't have (or to a far smaller degree) in a "normal" tourney. Thus it depends less on your own skill than tournaments where you can't use that infrastructure. Uhmm you can do that in every tournament, what about Lambo giving Reynor builds and advice between the games | ||
Moonerz
United States410 Posts
So for example by the time a protoss has made the finals they've shown most of their tricks and don't have much time to plan new builds, the stuff they've been using gets scouted and dealt with. Personally I find prep tournaments more interesting because you are more likely to see cool/unique uses of the map features or strategies instead of fairly standard games | ||
Lexender
Mexico2611 Posts
On April 25 2024 02:10 AmFreak wrote: Read the thread, instead of writing a snarky reply. It doesn't have to depend, because you can outsource to other people the moment you have actual time to prepare. If you have infrastructure behind you like a team, a coach, training partners playing that style etc. you have a clear advantage against someone on his own that you wouldn't have (or to a far smaller degree) in a "normal" tourney. Thus it depends less on your own skill than tournaments where you can't use that infrastructure. TIL that skill is only about how fast and accurate you can click on thinks. Strategy is also an skill, its not just about mindlessly clicking on things, player like sOs and Gumiho have become champions by mastering that specific skill. | ||
JJH777
United States4282 Posts
Does anyone really think that in a world where everyone played standard every game Maru wouldn't do even better than he already does? Most off his losses especially the big ones are when his opponents predict and hard counter his build choice. His lack of international weekender success is unrelated to his teams preparing stuff for him. That argument doesn't make any sense at all if you watch the games. | ||
AmFreak
16 Posts
On April 25 2024 03:26 Charoisaur wrote: Uhmm you can do that in every tournament, what about Lambo giving Reynor builds and advice between the games Sure, but it's not on the same level. If a single player acting as a coach for minutes-hours is already an advantage against players on their own, an entire team for days-weeks for sure is. On April 25 2024 04:02 Lexender wrote: TIL that skill is only about how fast and accurate you can click on thinks. Strategy is also an skill, its not just about mindlessly clicking on things, player like sOs and Gumiho have become champions by mastering that specific skill. I have explained it numerous times, if you ignore that for emotional reasons, whatever. | ||
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