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The same thing tends to happen when looking at GOAT discussions in a given discipline is that the latest generation or "era" benefits from its precursors/predecessors and results in being the most "skilled" which can take away from what the early top pros of the game have accomplished which is a shame because I feel like there are so many players in a given era that deserve their flowers but are overshadowed by their successors due to a variety of factors.
Using the NBA as an example, Steph Curry is widely considered to be the greatest shooter of all time and many pundits consider him to be a top-10 player of all time. I've heard some older school NBA legends question this because they believe that Curry benefited from newer rules that made it harder for a defender to play more physically when guarding someone. Some have also argued that today's athletes have the benefit of things such as the latest technologies and nutritionists that can further optimize their performance as opposed to in the past. A player such as Larry Bird accomplished what he had accomplished in an era where a defender could get away with being a lot more physical and essentially "break down" a star player by bruising them over and over again. How much importance should we put in things like rule changes and playing conditions when comparing players from different eras?
Going back to Starcraft, I just feel like things would be much simpler if there were top 10 lists that pertained to each significant era that occurred during the life of the game. It just doesn't feel right to talk about all-time greats and not honour players like Nestea, MC, MKP, DRG, and MMA in SC2.
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United States1552 Posts
On March 23 2024 00:44 StuDToSs wrote: The same thing tends to happen when looking at GOAT discussions in a given discipline is that the latest generation or "era" benefits from its precursors/predecessors and results in being the most "skilled" which can take away from what the early top pros of the game have accomplished which is a shame because I feel like there are so many players in a given era that deserve their flowers but are overshadowed by their successors due to a variety of factors.
Using the NBA as an example, Steph Curry is widely considered to be the greatest shooter of all time and many pundits consider him to be a top-10 player of all time. I've heard some older school NBA legends question this because they believe that Curry benefited from newer rules that made it harder for a defender to play more physically when guarding someone. Some have also argued that today's athletes have the benefit of things such as the latest technologies and nutritionists that can further optimize their performance as opposed to in the past. A player such as Larry Bird accomplished what he had accomplished in an era where a defender could get away with being a lot more physical and essentially "break down" a star player by bruising them over and over again. How much importance should we put in things like rule changes and playing conditions when comparing players from different eras?
Going back to Starcraft, I just feel like things would be much simpler if there were top 10 lists that pertained to each significant era that occurred during the life of the game. It just doesn't feel right to talk about all-time greats and not honour players like Nestea, MC, MKP, DRG, and MMA in SC2.
I already did that in the articles. I approached it the exact same way you would do an NBA Goat list. You can't directly compare Russell to Steph, but you can compare how they performed relative to their peers and use impact metrics to get a very clear sense of where the players stand. It's also pretty clear that a 10 player ranking is a often used arbitrary cut off. It's not like Nestea never existed. In fact, I have him at 13th all time. If I were to go a little deeper, these are some of the names I have somewhere between 15 and 40: MC, herO, Classic, Soulkey, Cure, PartinG, ByuN, ByuL, Solar, MMA, Clem, TaeJa, Polt, GuMiho, Trap etc.
+ Show Spoiler +As an aside, I have Kareem, Lebron, MJ, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Garnett, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Big O, Jerry West and David Robinson ahead of Steph.
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"Greatest Of All Time" - the clue is in the name. You will always have the problem in most (E)sports that not all contenders for the title played in the same era. And from there it becomes a question of how you rate certain things and try to limit it on the factors you can compare. But "The GOAT of HotS" or stuff like that is just...weird. of course you can totally discuss who the best player in HotS was, but that doesn't help much when you find the Greatest Of All Time. In fact, when your (E)sport runs long enough, the best player of one particular era might not even be in the discussion for GOAT, for whatever reason (e.g. Basketball: There most certainly was a best player of the pre-NBA era, but would you really put whoever that might be in the same vein as lets say MIchael Jordon, just because that particular player might have dominated an era of the sports lifetime?)
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SC2 GOAT discussion is so much more complex than NBA's. NBA is one league and there's one championship each year which everyone competes for. There are some notable rule changes over the years but in general everyone plays by the same rule.
Sc2 has so many different tournaments every year, the meta is constantly changing evolving, not to mention the inherent imbalance of three races. It's impossible to find one measuring sticks that would be fair for everyone.
At then end of the day, these lists are all subjective, none of them are final or canon. Feel free to make a criteria and stick with it to come up with your own list.
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On March 23 2024 00:55 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 00:44 StuDToSs wrote: The same thing tends to happen when looking at GOAT discussions in a given discipline is that the latest generation or "era" benefits from its precursors/predecessors and results in being the most "skilled" which can take away from what the early top pros of the game have accomplished which is a shame because I feel like there are so many players in a given era that deserve their flowers but are overshadowed by their successors due to a variety of factors.
Using the NBA as an example, Steph Curry is widely considered to be the greatest shooter of all time and many pundits consider him to be a top-10 player of all time. I've heard some older school NBA legends question this because they believe that Curry benefited from newer rules that made it harder for a defender to play more physically when guarding someone. Some have also argued that today's athletes have the benefit of things such as the latest technologies and nutritionists that can further optimize their performance as opposed to in the past. A player such as Larry Bird accomplished what he had accomplished in an era where a defender could get away with being a lot more physical and essentially "break down" a star player by bruising them over and over again. How much importance should we put in things like rule changes and playing conditions when comparing players from different eras?
Going back to Starcraft, I just feel like things would be much simpler if there were top 10 lists that pertained to each significant era that occurred during the life of the game. It just doesn't feel right to talk about all-time greats and not honour players like Nestea, MC, MKP, DRG, and MMA in SC2. I already did that in the articles. I approached it the exact same way you would do an NBA Goat list. You can't directly compare Russell to Steph, but you can compare how they performed relative to their peers and use impact metrics to get a very clear sense of where the players stand. It's also pretty clear that a 10 player ranking is a often used arbitrary cut off. It's not like Nestea never existed. In fact, I have him at 13th all time. If I were to go a little deeper, these are some of the names I have somewhere between 15 and 40: MC, herO, Classic, Soulkey, Cure, PartinG, ByuN, ByuL, Solar, MMA, Clem, TaeJa, Polt, GuMiho, Trap etc. + Show Spoiler +As an aside, I have Kareem, Lebron, MJ, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Garnett, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Big O, Jerry West and David Robinson ahead of Steph. Hmmmm so the fabled 10-15 list includes nestea, dark, stats, reynor… who’s the fifth I cant seem to figure out
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On March 23 2024 01:54 yubo56 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 00:55 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 23 2024 00:44 StuDToSs wrote: The same thing tends to happen when looking at GOAT discussions in a given discipline is that the latest generation or "era" benefits from its precursors/predecessors and results in being the most "skilled" which can take away from what the early top pros of the game have accomplished which is a shame because I feel like there are so many players in a given era that deserve their flowers but are overshadowed by their successors due to a variety of factors.
Using the NBA as an example, Steph Curry is widely considered to be the greatest shooter of all time and many pundits consider him to be a top-10 player of all time. I've heard some older school NBA legends question this because they believe that Curry benefited from newer rules that made it harder for a defender to play more physically when guarding someone. Some have also argued that today's athletes have the benefit of things such as the latest technologies and nutritionists that can further optimize their performance as opposed to in the past. A player such as Larry Bird accomplished what he had accomplished in an era where a defender could get away with being a lot more physical and essentially "break down" a star player by bruising them over and over again. How much importance should we put in things like rule changes and playing conditions when comparing players from different eras?
Going back to Starcraft, I just feel like things would be much simpler if there were top 10 lists that pertained to each significant era that occurred during the life of the game. It just doesn't feel right to talk about all-time greats and not honour players like Nestea, MC, MKP, DRG, and MMA in SC2. I already did that in the articles. I approached it the exact same way you would do an NBA Goat list. You can't directly compare Russell to Steph, but you can compare how they performed relative to their peers and use impact metrics to get a very clear sense of where the players stand. It's also pretty clear that a 10 player ranking is a often used arbitrary cut off. It's not like Nestea never existed. In fact, I have him at 13th all time. If I were to go a little deeper, these are some of the names I have somewhere between 15 and 40: MC, herO, Classic, Soulkey, Cure, PartinG, ByuN, ByuL, Solar, MMA, Clem, TaeJa, Polt, GuMiho, Trap etc. + Show Spoiler +As an aside, I have Kareem, Lebron, MJ, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Garnett, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Big O, Jerry West and David Robinson ahead of Steph. Hmmmm so the fabled 10-15 list includes nestea, dark, stats, reynor… who’s the fifth I cant seem to figure out
Just speculating here, but possibly DRG, Dear, Flash, Jaedong, MKP, Stephano. I can't think of many other notable names.
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if it's limited to one era then it's not a Goat debate anymore
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Just one patch imo and the one that fits my narrative
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WOL goats were MVP MC and Nestea all representing their respectful races
Hots goat was clearly Life followed closely by innovation
LotV goats is Serral, follow closer behind is Rogue
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MARU is the GOAT discussion over
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SoCal8898 Posts
GOAT stands for Greatest OF ALL TIME.
Objectively, looking at individual eras is not very "of all time"
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United States1552 Posts
On March 23 2024 02:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 01:54 yubo56 wrote:On March 23 2024 00:55 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 23 2024 00:44 StuDToSs wrote: The same thing tends to happen when looking at GOAT discussions in a given discipline is that the latest generation or "era" benefits from its precursors/predecessors and results in being the most "skilled" which can take away from what the early top pros of the game have accomplished which is a shame because I feel like there are so many players in a given era that deserve their flowers but are overshadowed by their successors due to a variety of factors.
Using the NBA as an example, Steph Curry is widely considered to be the greatest shooter of all time and many pundits consider him to be a top-10 player of all time. I've heard some older school NBA legends question this because they believe that Curry benefited from newer rules that made it harder for a defender to play more physically when guarding someone. Some have also argued that today's athletes have the benefit of things such as the latest technologies and nutritionists that can further optimize their performance as opposed to in the past. A player such as Larry Bird accomplished what he had accomplished in an era where a defender could get away with being a lot more physical and essentially "break down" a star player by bruising them over and over again. How much importance should we put in things like rule changes and playing conditions when comparing players from different eras?
Going back to Starcraft, I just feel like things would be much simpler if there were top 10 lists that pertained to each significant era that occurred during the life of the game. It just doesn't feel right to talk about all-time greats and not honour players like Nestea, MC, MKP, DRG, and MMA in SC2. I already did that in the articles. I approached it the exact same way you would do an NBA Goat list. You can't directly compare Russell to Steph, but you can compare how they performed relative to their peers and use impact metrics to get a very clear sense of where the players stand. It's also pretty clear that a 10 player ranking is a often used arbitrary cut off. It's not like Nestea never existed. In fact, I have him at 13th all time. If I were to go a little deeper, these are some of the names I have somewhere between 15 and 40: MC, herO, Classic, Soulkey, Cure, PartinG, ByuN, ByuL, Solar, MMA, Clem, TaeJa, Polt, GuMiho, Trap etc. + Show Spoiler +As an aside, I have Kareem, Lebron, MJ, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Garnett, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Big O, Jerry West and David Robinson ahead of Steph. Hmmmm so the fabled 10-15 list includes nestea, dark, stats, reynor… who’s the fifth I cant seem to figure out Just speculating here, but possibly DRG, Dear, Flash, Jaedong, MKP, Stephano. I can't think of many other notable names.
Where is the Dear chart by EJ when you need it. And Flash? He's the only person in the history of StarCraft II that could go back in time and still micro worse than everyone else.
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