Trying to make the ultimate Gaming Hardware Post. - Page 3
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Ropid
Germany3557 Posts
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Divine-Sneaker
Denmark1225 Posts
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GuitarBizarre
United Kingdom332 Posts
On February 07 2013 07:42 Ropid wrote: Instead of trying to build something that can hold and move the mouse, you could fix the mouse in place and move something in front of its sensor. That would probably be easier to build. Thats actually the same idea. The thing is, to draw circles or lines of different angles consistently, I would need some way of altering the orientation of the mouse relative to the moving surface. Since the moving surface cannot move in a perfect circle under the sensor, and since the mouse can't move in a perfect circle over the surface, its better to hold the mouse static, move the surface under it in a constant direction at a constant speed, and slowly turn the mouse to draw a circle. The possible flaw with this would be if the mouse's sensor was not in line with the axis of rotation, which is likely to fuck the whole idea up. | ||
GuitarBizarre
United Kingdom332 Posts
On February 07 2013 08:01 Divine-Sneaker wrote: Should sticky this OP somewhere in tech help, or add it to a compilation among other similar ones. Its nowhere near finished, so I'd rather not - not until we can get a proper product made and fix all the errors and re-do the formatting. Edit: Wait, I've totally overthought this. just temporarily attach a pin or nub to the underside of the mouse. Run the nub through a perfectly circular channel and the channel will stop the nub from moving in anything but a predefined path. All that would need to be controlled would be the mouse would need to face forward, but if there were two nubs we could control both direction of travel and orientation. Speed wouldn't be controllable, but it wouldn't need to be for the tests in question. | ||
timurStas
68 Posts
Really liking this thread so far. I want to say that when it come to mice high DPI might be good if you hold your mouse using the finger grip style. Basically this grip style is like the claw grip but with your palm off the mouse - only contact with the mouse is by your finger tips and motion is mainly done by pivoting around the hook of hamate. I do and so I set my DPI to 3500 for SC2 - faster for some shooters - so this allows me to just sort of pilot my hand (mouse moves maybe 4-5cm to cross screen). This is of course with all mouse acceleration and turned off. So if you use this grip style maybe a fast mouse can help you. timurStas | ||
Rollin
Australia1552 Posts
On February 07 2013 13:12 timurStas wrote: Hello, Really liking this thread so far. I want to say that when it come to mice high DPI might be good if you hold your mouse using the finger grip style. Basically this grip style is like the claw grip but with your palm off the mouse - only contact with the mouse is by your finger tips and motion is mainly done by pivoting around the hook of hamate. I do and so I set my DPI to 3500 for SC2 - faster for some shooters - so this allows me to just sort of pilot my hand (mouse moves maybe 4-5cm to cross screen). This is of course with all mouse acceleration and turned off. So if you use this grip style maybe a fast mouse can help you. timurStas Actually with a DPI of 3500 it only takes 1.4cm to cross the entire screen horizontally, and 0.8 cm to traverse the entire screen vertically. A 4-5cm horizontal screen traverse should take a dpi of about 1100, which is inline with what a lot of people use. 3500 dpi is ridiculously high for sc2, I doubt you're accurate with 1:1, if it's taking you 4-5 cm instead of 1.5 cm to get across the screen your settings are incorrect. (making the assumption you're on a 1080p screen, if you're on 1440p, multiply distances by 4/3). | ||
timurStas
68 Posts
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llIH
Norway2126 Posts
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GuitarBizarre
United Kingdom332 Posts
On February 07 2013 20:51 llIH wrote: You can just have high sensitivity on the mouse instead of having so high DPI. You need only enough DPI for pixel per pixel tracking on your desired resolution. (eg. no need for a DPI that measure 2 pixels for 1 pixel movement) Thats not what DPI is or does, man. DPI = CPI = Counts per inch = Sensor resolution in the mouse. Sensitivity = The way software (Like windows, the game, etc) responds to being given counts from the sensor in the mouse. You've got the two terms backwards. | ||
llIH
Norway2126 Posts
On February 07 2013 22:41 GuitarBizarre wrote: Thats not what DPI is or does, man. DPI = CPI = Counts per inch = Sensor resolution in the mouse. Sensitivity = The way software (Like windows, the game, etc) responds to being given counts from the sensor in the mouse. You've got the two terms backwards. I'll elaborate. You don't need higher resolution on the mouse compared to how much you will move it - and that translated on the screen. Why count x+n inches? X = Inches moved n = additional inches counted If you move your mouse say 2 inches. Why would you have to count 5000 dots per inch? 2 inches on your screen is way less than 5000. What I am trying to say: You don't need more DPI than to make an inch per inch match with your movement. You can just up the sentivitiy from that. Save money as well. In other words you could say the high DPI is overkill to what resolution and size of movement you have. Basically. Figure out how much you want your mouse to move on the screen (in sc2 you dont need to think about angles as such for cs). Then calculate: How much movement from mouse pad length translated to how much you want it to travel on the screen. You do not need 5000 DPI for this. If I recall correctly you would need somewhere between 1600-1800. But I can not remember the correct formula. If you want a ridiculous high sensitive movement, where you move your mouse one inch and the cursor moves a lot on the screen it is technically accurate but the "sensitivity"/5000 dots counter per inch will make you miss targets more than it will be helping you to hit them. (x movement per dot counted will give you screen movement in relation to how much the sensitivity is) A little nudge or pulse from your thumb will make you miss. | ||
GuitarBizarre
United Kingdom332 Posts
On February 07 2013 23:04 llIH wrote: I'll elaborate. You don't need higher resolution on the mouse compared to how much you will move it - and that translated on the screen. Why count x+n inches? X = Inches moved n = additional inches counted If you move your mouse say 2 inches. Why would you have to count 5000 dots per inch? 2 inches on your screen is way less than 5000. What I am trying to say: You don't need more DPI than to make an inch per inch match with your movement. You can just up the sentivitiy from that. Save money as well. In other words you could say the high DPI is overkill to what resolution and size of movement you have. If I have my mouse set to 1920dpi, and my windows sensitivity set to 6/11, with mouse accel turned off, it should take exactly 1 inch of movement to move from one side of my 1080p monitor, to the other side. If I change the sensitivity, as you claim I should be doing, the mouse still sends 1920 counts per inch, but the number of pixels it will move across the screen will change. This means that 1920 counts will not move 1920 pixels, and therefore this means that whatever software is controlling the sensitivity has to either move 2 pixels per count at some point (If the sensitivity has been raised), or has to discard a count (If the sensitivity has been lowered). Both of these are more imprecise than setting the OS to move 1 pixel for 1 count, and therefore setting a correct sensitivity of 1:1, then controlling the feel of the mouse via variable DPI, is far more accurate. (Assuming the mouse is not flawed). Therefore, setting windows and any software you are using, to perform 1:1 movement, then using DPI to control the resultant level of sensitivity, is the correct way of doing it. Sensitivity should not change, DPI should. | ||
llIH
Norway2126 Posts
I also want 1:1 tracking. You are right. But that is not my point. I am talking about how "overkill" the dpi of mice are. You do not need to spend so much money on a sensor that is theoretically precise when you don't need this precision. I don't think you can play on 5000 dpi under the prerequisites above. Important: Given that we are talking about 1920x1080 resolution. A lower resolution would make it even more overkill. I am considering we are talking about 1920x1080 resolution maximum. What I am trying to say: Aiming towards a mouse with 1800 dpi rather than a 5000+ dpi. This goes back to me commenting how the marketers are talking over the engineers as the OP mentioned. People are getting tricked to spending way more money than they need to. | ||
GuitarBizarre
United Kingdom332 Posts
On February 07 2013 23:33 llIH wrote: 6/11 + no acceleration are prerequisites. I also want 1:1 tracking. You are right. But that is not my point. I am talking about how "overkill" the dpi of mice are. You do not need to spend so much money on a sensor that is theoretically precise when you don't need this precision. I don't think you can play on 5000 dpi under the prerequisites above. Important: Given that we are talking about 1920x1080 resolution. What I am trying to say: Aiming towards a mouse with 1800 dpi rather than a 5000+ dpi. You have explained yourself poorly. Your first post states the exact opposite of this. "You can just have high sensitivity on the mouse instead of having so high DPI. You need only enough DPI for pixel per pixel tracking on your desired resolution. (eg. no need for a DPI that measure 2 pixels for 1 pixel movement)" 1 - You can just have high sensitivity on the mouse instead of having so high DPI. This is wrong because high sensitivity is bad, as we just explained. Having neutral sensitivity is correct. Having sufficient DPI to compensate for neutral sensitivity is therefore desirable, though you're right you don't need 5000. The point is, you said high sensitivity was desirable, and it absolutely is not. 2 - You need only enough DPI for pixel per pixel tracking on your desired resolution. (eg. no need for a DPI that measure 2 pixels for 1 pixel movement)" The part of this sentence that isn't in brackets makes sense. But then you state that you can get a "DPI" that moves 2 pixels for one pixel movement. DPI does not and cannot do this. sensitivity and interpolation do this. Therefore I concluded you were treating DPI as if it were sensitivity and sensitivity as if it were DPI, meaning your whole description was backwards. | ||
llIH
Norway2126 Posts
Increasing dpi to a value that fits. Totally agree. I am interested to find out exactly how much I need. And what people need. (I recall 1600 or 1800) I bet someone in here will reply soon with the formula. (eg. dpi needed for left border to right border movement with desired length of movement on the mouse pad on desired resolution[usually 1920x1080]) | ||
llIH
Norway2126 Posts
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GuitarBizarre
United Kingdom332 Posts
On February 07 2013 23:46 llIH wrote: Yeah I did a lot of mistakes there. You pointed them out. But we agree. I said high sensitivity by an accident. Most people have low sensitivity. As in lower than what is 6/11 or lower than standard from a game sensitivity. I consider my sensitivity high compared to the standard value. So yes this is relative - and therefore a mistake by me. Increasing dpi to a value that fits. Totally agree. I am interested to find out exactly how much I need. And what people need. (I recall 1600 or 1800) I bet someone in here will reply soon with the formula. (eg. dpi needed for left border to right border movement with desired length of movement on the mouse pad on desired resolution[usually 1920x1080]) Wo1fwood dealt with that here. Bear in mind he is dealing with 3D enviroments mainly. When the action takes place on a 2D plane (As in starcraft), then the calculations are very different (and much more simple). For 3D games: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333648#v For 2D games: Correct DPI = Screen resolution divided by desired movement distance in inches. | ||
llIH
Norway2126 Posts
On February 08 2013 00:13 GuitarBizarre wrote: Wo1fwood dealt with that here. Bear in mind he is dealing with 3D enviroments mainly. When the action takes place on a 2D plane (As in starcraft), then the calculations are very different (and much more simple). For 3D games: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333648#v For 2D games: Correct DPI = Screen resolution divided by desired movement distance in inches. Do you mean: amount of pixels cursor traveled (eg. from right to left border on screen) divided on inches desired for mouse to move on mouse pad for that pixel distance? | ||
GuitarBizarre
United Kingdom332 Posts
On February 08 2013 00:25 llIH wrote: Do you mean: Screen resolution as in a cursor travelling from right to left border of the screen devided on movement distance of the mouse on the mouse pad in inches? Yes, for 2d planes, like starcraft, the desktop, etc, the correct DPI is determined by the number of inches you want to move the mouse, to move the cursor across the whole screen from right to left, divided by the resolution of the screen. So if I had a 1920x1080 screen, and wanted it to take 4 inches of mouse movement to move from one side to the other, I would set my DPI to 480. Obviously in practice this is fairly academic. Set your dpi to whatever the fuck feels right. | ||
llIH
Norway2126 Posts
On February 08 2013 00:36 GuitarBizarre wrote: Yes, for 2d planes, like starcraft, the desktop, etc, the correct DPI is determined by the number of inches you want to move the mouse, to move the cursor across the whole screen from right to left, divided by the resolution of the screen. So if I had a 1920x1080 screen, and wanted it to take 4 inches of mouse movement to move from one side to the other, I would set my DPI to 480. Obviously in practice this is fairly academic. Set your dpi to whatever the fuck feels right. Thanks. I just did some calculations. Noticed that even 2000 dpi might be way too much for most people. (1 inch for a 1920 pixel / left-right). ~2000 | ||
MisterFred
United States2033 Posts
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