Welcome to the TL Book Club! Now I know you must be saying to yourself, "Haven't I seen this very thing before?". Well, you most certainly have, but I'm hoping that as the summer of '13 approaches, TL's yearning for perspective and knowledge stumbles upon new found invigoration. Won't you be so kind as to join me in putting this motivation to good use as we read a few good books and argue about them?
I suppose it would make sense for me to provide some sorts of credentials in pursuit of convincing anyone to take what I say at all seriously. At the risk of sounding cliche and self-indulgent (which I'm sure most who know me as a poster have come to expect), I've been surrounded by books my entire life, and decided upon a course of serious literary study around senior year of high school. I worked closely alongside a number of published professors of English Literature during my time at the Ohio State University, and focused on Postmodernism, Modernism, Medieval/ Early Modern English Lit, and Critical Theory in my studies. Because I was that annoying kid who enjoyed having basically 1-on-1 conversations with the professor in front of the class for 30 minutes at a time (everyone else's questions weren't very good anyway ), I had the opportunity to lead class and facilitate discussion groups rather frequently. On some level, I know it just sounds like I'm annoying and bossy, but I promise you that I've got interesting things to say if you'll do me the honor
In terms of approach, I'm definitely not a fan of singular New Criticism, or singular any sort of criticism for that matter. Reader Response, Marxist, Post-Structuralist, Psychoanalytic, Postcolonialist, and Queer Theory perspectives among many others all have their utility, and it is ultimately the reader who holds the keys. In terms of choosing a lens with which to view a book, I think it best for a reader to learn as much as they can as they fill in the background of a particular work (through historical references, short stories, essays, perhaps even a bit of poetry!), so I'll be sure to provide as much of this as I can alongside whatever work we decide to go with. Our format of discussion will revolve around this thread in order to avoid any time zone issues, though perhaps we'll steal way to irc or skype from time to time when folks are up for it.
When it comes to reading schedule, we'll be opting for slow rather than fast every time, with likely around 30-80 pages every week or two depending on the difficulty of the material and whether or not we have any good supplementary material to go over.
I've chosen 10 books/pairings that I can lead a good discussion on, and we'll go through 3 or 4 votes in order to narrow it down. I've rated them 1-5 as an indicator of my estimation of their difficulty. I am of the mind that one of the biggest reasons book clubs on forums like TL tend to fail deals with how difficult it is to find a book everyone can find good motivation to read; I hope I've made the process exhaustive enough to tease out something good.
The Choices
1.
The Prague Cemetery (2010) by Umberto Eco Difficulty rating: 4~5
His most recent novel, and supposedly his best since The Name of The Rose, The Prague Cemetery revolves around supposedly the least likeable character in fiction (according to Eco) as he travels about Europe during the 19th century and witnesses a great many traumatic and tremendous events. It's Eco, so intertexutality is the name of the game, and we'd pretty much be learning a great deal of 19th century European history alongside it. Still, Eco's works tend to be incredibly rewarding, and are an excellent means of gaining access to a huge breadth of knowledge all at once.
2.
To The Lighthouse (1927) by Virginia Woolf Difficulty rating: 4
This is a book I have studied very closely, and I would love for nothing more than to share my insights with y'all. It is story of a journey to a lighthouse that ends up taking many, many years while a painter comes to terms with precisely how she wants to finish a work of art that also suffers from a nagging incompletion. This is one of those novels in which nothing really happens, and yet along the way the entire life and time of the Ramsey family is filled in with wonderful detail. Inherent to Woolf's formalism in TTL is a certain sort of commentary on how people interact with one another, and how multiple minds can operate at dramatically different frequencies given similar conditions, in addition to a number of, shall I say, headier representations of things such as the passage of time. It's good; trust me.
3.
James Joyce Difficulty rating: 3~6
I've made this choice simply James Joyce for a number of reasons, the largest being that I rather enjoy all of his major works, and I think each could likely be handled by TL given the motivation. We would likely be choosing from Dubliners (3), A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man (4), Ulysses(5, though Corum says 4 ), and Finnegan's Wake (6). Their difficulty lines up roughly in that order from easiest to hardest, with Ulysses and Finnegans Wake being significant jumps in difficulty. The latter two require "large investments" to put it one way, and it would take a strong consensus for us to choose them. In any case, I'd love to have a reason to reread any one of them.
4.
On Beauty (2005) by Zadie Smith alongside Howard's End (1910) by E.M. Forster Difficulty rating: 3
I've wanted to do these two together ever since I read On Beauty for the first time. OB revolves around two families of rather unique makeups as their lives proceed to intertwine. Much of it takes in and around a small Massachusetts liberal arts college town, and the ideas of race, politicization, aesthetics, higher education, class, gender, among a host of others take center stage as the reader learns more about the Belsey's and the Kipp's. OB is roughly based on Howard's End, the Forster classic which pokes holes in the classic British social hierarchy as the very human characters prove time and time again that all lines are arbitrary. While the writing in both isn't all that difficult to get through, this would require a fair amount of reading, as both are not small books. Something to keep in mind.
5.
Les Particules élémentaires, or Atomized (1998) by Michel Houellebecq Difficulty rating: 3~4
Having never read this book and yet having always wanted to, I don't know a great amount of detail on this one. Definitely on the postmodern side of things, this book tells the story of two brothers and their experience of a sort of existential anguish brought on by modern society. Lots of vulgar weirdness takes place, as sex and sex addiction are a frequent topic, and the general theme is rather bleak, so this may not be for everyone. There are likely ample opportunities for discussions of existentialism to take place alongside this, so expect that sort of thing as supplementary material (Everyone brushed up on their Camus, Sartre, and Dostoyevsky?) What's especially cool though is that we might have the chance to speak on translation and its effects on a book via differences in interpretation; that is if at least one of TL's esteemed French community will join us.
6.
V. (1963) by Thomas Pynchon Difficulty rating: 4.5
Pynchon's first novel, it serves as an excellent discursive introduction to his whiplash style of story-telling, which, unsurprisingly, formally challenges many ideas as to what exactly constitutes a story. Two plotlines seek to converge at the end of the novel; in one, we follow the main character Benney, his friend Stencil, and other members of a group known as the Whole Sick Crew in 1956. In the other, Stencil's attempts to discover the identity of a mysterious figure known as V. take the shape of interspersed historical crises intertwined via the frame of Stencil searching through history for clues as to the identity of V. (We'll get to see where the movie Black Swan comes from). Granted, this book is pretty tough; there is tons going on, many characters, and a fair bit that just won't make sense no matter how you paint it during a given reading. I think it will be extremely rewarding nonetheless.
7.
The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao (2007) by Junot Diaz Difficulty rating: 2~3
Definitely one of the breezier choices, this book is like a delicious flan; sweet, easy to consume, and likely difficult to prepare just right. Oscar is a fatboy Dominican nerd with an obsession for sci-fi novels and finding his one true love. In the background we are given an incredibly detailed and moving history of the Dominican people, both here in the US and back in the Dominican Republic. I can guarantee that almost every single poster on TL can see a bit of themselves in Oscar, and the story does a wonderful job of intermingling historic fact with compelling fiction. This is a book we can literally just pick right up and be done with in relatively short order, so this might be a good starter.
8.
Du côté de chez Swann, or Swann's Way (1913) by Marcel Proust Difficulty rating: 4~5
As volume one of À la recherche du temps perdu, or In Search of Lost Time, this book forms a cornerstone of the Modernist canon as the introduction to one of the greatest (and longest ) stories ever told. As one might expect, memory, recollection, time and its passage, and how these things operate in and around human relationships are the soup du jour. The writing is mostly very dense with a great amount of detail, so we'll be taking this one on the slower side, which will also give us time to get some valuable input from our French friends.
9.
Die Leiden des jungen Werthers, or The Sorrows of Young Werther (1774, revised in 1787) by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Difficulty rating: 3
Credited by some as the world's first "best-seller", TSOYW more or less marks the beginning of Romanticism as a literary movement (alongside the French Revolution of course!), and would serve as an excellent jumping off point for a great many other works, from Wordsworth and Keats to Pushkin and Chateaubriand. In what forms a sort of response and counter to the Enlightenment, the German literary movement known as Sturm und Drang (literally Storm and Drive) circles around an archetypal main character who is both sensitive yet driven to action, a being ultimately unable to resist the interpolations of experience as they sometimes override even the instinctual desire to live. Again, if we happen to have any German-speaking TL'ers join us, we'll be especially blessed. This would definitely be a fairly academic undertaking, so take that into consideration. (We could also consider any other major Romantic work as centerpiece, so if you've any alternative suggestions, feel free to PM me)
10.
Junkie (1953) by William S. Burroughs alongside Confessions of an Opium Eater (1821) by Thomas De Quincy Difficulty rating: 2~3
I can think of no better way to jump into counter culture than to start off with the OOG of dope followed up by the OG of dope. COAOE, alongside Kublai Kahn among a few other works, presents readers with one of the first literary depictions of drug use and it's effects on consciousness and lifestyle; readers follow De Quincey's autobiographical account of his laudenum addiction, and one can't help but notice that De Quincey has an awfully hard time coming up with bad things to say about the drug. This segues nicely into Burroughs' account of 1950's American Heroin culture. Burroughs pulls no punches in Junkie; the stunningly deleterious effects of heroin are left bare for all to see, and the confessional build-up of the novel would go on to be a hallmark of Burroughs' style.
Our first choice is Dubliners! For those of you without books, Project Gutenberg has a free, digital copy that can be accessed here. Everyone try and have the next four stories, or "After the Race", "Two Gallants", "The Boarding House", and "A Little Cloud", read for this Sunday the 19th. Below are links to pertinent posts. I've also set up an irc channel #TLBC, and will do my best to idle there as much as possible, so stop on by if you've got any questions or concerns. Prologue: Irish Nationalism and the Roots of Modernist Expression in Ireland.
Thanks to Azera for the layout and design, and thanks to sam!zdat for being banned so that we may read books.
Books I'm most interested in : To The Lighthouse, James Joyce, Les Particules élémentaires, and rereading Du Côté de chez Swann for the 4th time :D I think it would be good not to start by Joyce and Proust first, so I'm inclined to suggest Virginia Woolf, especially if you know it very well. After that I'll be happy to share my "valuable input" (I hope^^) on Proust, cause Proust is just that good. Also from what I've read from Ulysses, I'd say it's definitely a 4. Also thank you very much Farva !
I'd be interested in reading Junky, because i actually have it. I mean i have some joyce too but the dude was way into farts and all that, which is just out of left field for me.
I'm up for anything, especially Joyce(which I voted for), Woolf or Proust. However, as some have said, it might not be wise to start with "difficult" authors.
Also, if people are willing I would be happy to recommend some portuguese language books(be it brazilian or portuguese, I'm not familiar with literature from other portuguese speaking countries).
Voted for Umberto Eco's The Prague Cemetery as I have it in my bookcase but have not yet read it. I would also love to reread James Joyce's Ulysses (tedious read the first time, interesting to see what a second read would bring me) or The sorrows of young Werther (I have previously read this in Dutch but would be open for the challenge of reading it in German)
Junkie/Confessions & Atomized also sound interesting.
Oh, great, this sounds brilliant. As others have mentioned, I voted for Woolf. I've wanted an excuse to read "To the Lighthouse" for a long time. I think it'll be a great read for us.
If anyone else will be up for it, I recommend Gabriel Garcia-Marquez's "One Hundred Years of Solitude." I read it for a senior literature course last year but would love to read it again. Partly because it's written originally in Spanish, the language of the novel exudes so much passion and fervor. Truly a great work of fiction and fantasy.
#dmnum, definitely hit me up with a list of Portuguese works when you've got the time. I'd love to have a chance to read some, as I've never really been exposed to much in that area.
#Schmoopy, I'll definitely add some Gabriel Garcia Marquez to the list in the future, though we might do a work of his with which fewer people are familiar. I'd definitely be up for rereading OHYOS though
If we decided to do Joyce, I think Dubliners would be a really interesting work of his to read. I tried to read part of it long time ago but it was a bit over my head at that point.
It isn't mentioned anywhere in the OP but I was wondering, is there a sort of schedule with which we want to read these things? I would assume that we would want something like, try to have read the book before X day so that we can all discuss it after that. Otherwise it might be difficult to have a coherent discussion since everyone will just be chiming in to the thread when they finish instead of having a unified discussion.
On April 25 2013 06:41 packrat386 wrote: It isn't mentioned anywhere in the OP but I was wondering, is there a sort of schedule with which we want to read these things? I would assume that we would want something like, try to have read the book before X day so that we can all discuss it after that. Otherwise it might be difficult to have a coherent discussion since everyone will just be chiming in to the thread when they finish instead of having a unified discussion.
I didn't include any hard set schedule in the OP because I want to do at least one more vote to finalize the book choice and see how many people end up voting. Once we have a book chosen, I'm thinking Sunday is a good benchmark day with which to encourage people to have a certain amount read by each week. Every Monday I'll put up a supplementary post with stuff relative to the current reading section or pertinent background info. This post will also include the next weeks chunk of reading, which may change depending on if I have something I'm just dying for everyone to read short story/essay-wise
Interesting idea. If I will find time I would definitely be interested. I always wanted to read Ulysses, but from what I heard I would probably not like it. Eco is on the other hand one of my top 5 authors and I did not read the new book yet, so Eco has my vote.
On April 25 2013 09:33 Ghostcom wrote: Absolutely brilliant idea! I might be a bit strapped for time until August, but I will definitely try to join no matter what we end up reading.
And lol @ sam!zdat shoutout :p
I mean, originally this was supposed to be the sam!zdat memorial book club
On April 25 2013 04:34 farvacola wrote: #Schmoopy, I'll definitely add some Gabriel Garcia Marquez to the list in the future, though we might do a work of his with which fewer people are familiar. I'd definitely be up for rereading OHYOS though
I recommend Love in the Time of Cholera for a lesser known book of his. I haven't had the chance to read it, but I've heard it's very good and very faithful to Marquez's style in One Hundred Years.
Alrighty, since it looks like we've gotten most of the likely voters accounted for, I'll go ahead and start the next round of voting. Because the "James Joyce" category gets a bit inflated via it's standing for multiple works, I've broken it down in the poll below. With the way the votes ended up going, we look to have a nice amount of interest in Modernism, and I'm definitely a fan of reading a Woolf right after a Joyce or vice versa, so that's something for y'all to keep in mind.
If your selection didn't make it to this round of voting, don't worry and stick around, I implore you! The more people we get into doing this consistently the easier it will be for us to get through more books. I won't even get into why it is always a good idea to let others choose ones' reading material from time to time; it just is.
(It is worth mentioning yet again that I highly caution against a flippant vote for Ulysses or Finnegans Wake. I enjoy a good literary "trial by fire", which is what close readings of the above two tend to end up like, but not everyone is as masochistic as I. All I am saying is that even if you've already read Dubliners or APOTAAAYM, it might be worth getting acquainted with this discussion format/group dynamic via more accessible works first.)
Poll: Let's narrow things down, shall we?
Dubliners (10)
38%
The Prague Cemetery (6)
23%
To The Lighthouse (5)
19%
Ulysses (4)
15%
A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man (1)
4%
Finnegans Wake (0)
0%
The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao (0)
0%
26 total votes
Your vote: Let's narrow things down, shall we?
(Vote): Dubliners (Vote): A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man (Vote): Ulysses (Vote): Finnegans Wake (Vote): To The Lighthouse (Vote): The Prague Cemetery (Vote): The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao
I'm sad to see no vote for Proust, but I imagine those who are interested have been consumed by Joyce or something^^ I'll try to push it a little next time or the time after. Apart from that, everything looks great, but if I may voice my opinion, let's not start with Ulysses^^
On April 26 2013 04:06 Paljas wrote: voted for ulysees, just to force myself to read it.
oh, and what do you guys think about some Brecht in the future?
For two different reasons, I don't think theater and poetry are very good ideas.
On April 26 2013 04:28 corumjhaelen wrote: I'm sad to see no vote for Proust, but I imagine those who are interested have been consumed by Joyce or something^^ I'll try to push it a little next time or the time after. Apart from that, everything looks great, but if I may voice my opinion, let's not start with Ulysses^^
On April 26 2013 04:28 corumjhaelen wrote: I'm sad to see no vote for Proust, but I imagine those who are interested have been consumed by Joyce or something^^ I'll try to push it a little next time or the time after. Apart from that, everything looks great, but if I may voice my opinion, let's not start with Ulysses^^
On April 26 2013 04:06 Paljas wrote: voted for ulysees, just to force myself to read it.
oh, and what do you guys think about some Brecht in the future?
For two different reasons, I don't think theater and poetry are very good ideas.
thinking about it, you are right.
That being said, I have nothing against Brecht, on the contrary^^
I will refrain from voting as I am rather open to whatever, but if it ends up in a tiebreaker in which Ulysses is the one, can you please assign my vote to the other? I have already read Ulysses once and that is not something I foresee myself doing again anytime soon.
Instead of Ulysses/Finnegan's Wake we can read Lem's parody of it. He wrote review of non-existent book written by Odysseus from Ithaca (American one). The reviewed book has cca 100 pages, commentaries and explanations have around 1000 and the book contains all the knowledge of humankind referenced in one way or another. For example if you pick 1st letters of pages numbered with primes and use them as coordinates in Monge projections you get plan of the cathedral in Chartres. Isn't that basically what reading Finnegan's Wake is ?
On April 26 2013 05:52 mcc wrote: Instead of Ulysses/Finnegan's Wake we can read Lem's parody of it. He wrote review of non-existent book written by Odysseus from Ithaca (American one). The reviewed book has cca 100 pages, commentaries and explanations have around 1000 and the book contains all the knowledge of humankind referenced in one way or another. For example if you pick 1st letters of pages numbered with primes and use them as coordinates in Monge projections you get plan of the cathedral in Chartres. Isn't that basically what reading Finnegan's Wake is ?
Oh my god that is brilliant. I didn't know such a book existed. Off to google I go!
Absolutely no to Ulysses or Finnegans Wake. ABSOLUTELY NOT.
This is not a matter of personal taste, or preference, or insult on any of your abilities as readers. These books are difficult. Extremely difficult. That's why they're good. But that also makes them terrible choices for the inaugural books in an online book club. As i've mentioned to farva, I've seen so many TL book clubs start off with great excitement only to fizzle out. Having tomes like Ulysses be the object of discussion is not the right way to go as far as addressing this issue goes. For similar reasons, Proust is out in my opinion.
Basically this:
(It is worth mentioning yet again that I highly caution against a flippant vote for Ulysses or Finnegans Wake. I enjoy a good literary "trial by fire", which is what close readings of the above two tend to end up like, but not everyone is as masochistic as I. All I am saying is that even if you've already read Dubliners or APOTAAAYM, it might be worth getting acquainted with this discussion format/group dynamic via more accessible works first.)
It's not about how much you love Joyce or how excited you are to read Ulysses. It's sheer pragmatism that should drive you to rule out Ulysses and the like as the first choice.
I think Dubliners or Portrait would be fine choices. Maybe Prague Cemetery, but I honestly think Name of the Rose would be a better choice. Again, these opinions are not judgments on the merits of these works or anything of the sort, but merely trying to think what kind of books would be good to get an online book club going. Once things are up and running and all the unforeseen issues (and trust me, there will inevitably be many of these), we can definitely read whatever we want, including Finnegans Wake. But for now? Stick with something simple, straightforward, and to the point is my recommendation. Short, even, which leans my vote towards Dubliners, since it is easily broken down into manageable segments.
Someone mentioned Portuguese literature earlier, which actually reminds me Jose Saramago. I think Blindness would've been a fantastic choice for an earlier iteration of this online discussion. This might be driven by my adoration of everything I've read by Saramago, but hey
Yeah I think we should start with an easy book so we can flesh out all the intricacies and structure of how the discussion is going to work without worrying too much about the content of the book. This doesn't mean that we make the discussion secondary, just that we would make things less hectic.
On April 26 2013 07:33 Azera wrote: Yeah I think we should start with an easy book so we can flesh out all the intricacies and structure of how the discussion is going to work without worrying too much about the content of the book. This doesn't mean that we make the discussion secondary, just that we would make things less hectic.
I agree, plus the idea is to start easy for those who don't usually read much
On April 26 2013 05:52 mcc wrote: Instead of Ulysses/Finnegan's Wake we can read Lem's parody of it. He wrote review of non-existent book written by Odysseus from Ithaca (American one). The reviewed book has cca 100 pages, commentaries and explanations have around 1000 and the book contains all the knowledge of humankind referenced in one way or another. For example if you pick 1st letters of pages numbered with primes and use them as coordinates in Monge projections you get plan of the cathedral in Chartres. Isn't that basically what reading Finnegan's Wake is ?
Oh my god that is brilliant. I didn't know such a book existed. Off to google I go!
Lem wrote book of reviews to non-existing books so you won't find the reviewed book . He also prefaced it by a review of this book of reviews, did not actually got that it was him reading it first time. The main book is called Perfect Vacuum, the review/book I am referencing is called Gigamesh if you would want to find it. All the other reviews are also rather awesome for one reason or another. Some of those imaginary books he is reviewing would actually be impossible to write.
Also I mixed two reviews from that book in my head, Odysseus from Ithaca is separate review dealing with typology of geniuses.
I am in for J.J. Ulysses.First time read it in German because of the many, to me unknown, slang words. Shall give it a try in the original language. But also other Eco books should be on the list. In particular Foucault's Pendulum (although the first hundred pages or so are quite tough) and of course the brilliant The Name of the Rose.
On April 26 2013 15:43 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: I'm down for Eco, but I have reservations about how well he'd work as the first one to get everyone accustomed to the process @_@
I wonder if we should start with his (allegedly) most accessible Baudolino instead and work up from there? Hmmm.
Dubliners is otherwise a good choice, imo. Short stories, very manageable, and Joyce's style is quite nice and smooth.
I gave thought to doing Baudolino instead of The Prague Cemetery as our Eco choice, so that is definitely something to consider. My dad is of the opinion that it isn't so great, but he's an even bigger critic than I. Besides, now that I see that folks have an interest in Woolf, I can't help but think that Baudolino/Orlando would be a pretty cool pairing with which to probe the depths of the great historic myth of the hero!
By the end of tonight we'll likely have all the votes we're gonna get, so y'all look forward to having our book choice solidified in short order. If the current numbers are any indication, Dubliners will be our first selection, and I think it an excellent choice (I even voted for it ). There's even a Project Gutenburg free source, so everyone can participate without having to worry about book procurement.
On April 27 2013 13:56 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: What's the voting end/target start date?
We'll give it one more day, so the vote on book selection officially ends tomorrow (Saturday) night at 10 PM PST. If you haven't already, please vote here.
Since it would appear that Dubliners is a shoe in, I'll plan on having an introductory post up on Monday with stuff for us to discuss during the first 2 weeks or so of reading: the state of Ireland at the turn of the century, some history of Dublin perhaps, and a cursory look at the literary scene that gave rise to Joyce's fame (I get to talk about my boy Ezra Pound ). Since the entire book can be found here,, I think it's fair to ask folks to have the first 4 stories, or "The Sisters", "An Encounter", "Araby", and "Eveline", read for 2 weeks from Sunday, or May 12th. I'm leaning towards this having longer reading periods as opposed to short, just so that we have plenty of time (and because I'm hoping the extra stuff piques folks' interest).
If anyone has any concerns or suggestions, just PM me or ask in the thread!
I just thought of a suggestion for future readings : The Opposing Shore by Julien Gracq (I think it's his only work translated in English somehow) which is a pretty complicated but brilliant book. I think it fits the list quite well. I have other ideas but let's not get ahead of ourselves, I'll push Proust for the next vote anyway^^ Dubliners seems to be the choice, I think I have a French edition somewhere, I'll try to compare both texts in case I need it.
I'm a bit of an amateur Joyce scholar. Almost-but-not-quite enough to get me into PhD programs. If other people are lazy/busy, the most commonly read/discussed/written about stories in Dubliners are The Dead, Araby, The Sisters, and maybe Eveline. The Dead is reasonably long (by far the longest story in the book); the others are all quite short. For those with some working idea of Joyce but no experience reading his work, Dubliners is not likely to mesh up with your image of him. Joyce's chief literary influences when he wrote the book were the Norwegian playwright Henrik Ibsen and the French novelist Gustave Flaubert, neither of whom one might traditionally think of as relevant to our perception of Joyce. Dubliners is a quiet, patient book. It is possible to see the root of Joyce's stylistics and idiosyncrasies in Dubliners, but only if you work your way backwards. To that end, the beginning Joyce reader might want to try to look at both the overarching narrative technique of the book, and how that varies or develops over the course of each of the stories. Joyce had an immense, broad intellect, but there were only three things he cared about in life: writing, Ireland, and his wife. You will find them all here if you look. Anyone who comes in or out of this with an interest in the young Joyce's aesthetics might want to look at the last third of A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, in which he establishes the goals and methods of the artist via his wayward pseudo-mouthpiece Stephen Dedalus, or his more formalized critical work from around the same time. It is possible that I will try to post some choice bits from those works as things to think about when you start reading.
Prologue: Irish Nationalism and the Roots of Modernist Expression in Ireland.
The Lake Isle of Innisfree (1888), By W .B. Yeats
I will arise and go now, and go to Innisfree, And a small cabin build there, of clay and wattles made; Nine bean rows will I have there, a hive for the honey bee, And live alone in the bee loud glade.
And I shall have some peace there, for peace comes dropping slow, Dropping from the veils of the morning to where the cricket sings; There midnight's all a glimmer, and noon a purple glow, And evening full of the linnet's wings.
I will arise and go now, for always night and day I hear lake water lapping with low sounds by the shore; While I stand on the roadway, or on the pavements grey, I hear it in the deep heart's core.
One cannot get a proper sense for the world in which Joyce first started writing without first taking the time to understand a bit of Irish history. We'll start with what is known as the Protestant Ascendency, a social and governmental system in Ireland dating back to the times of the Gunpowder Plot (1605) in which a select few Protestant Irish families were given de facto aristocratic status via penal laws which made it immensely difficult for Catholics and other non-conforming Christians to own land until they converted to the "one, true Protestant faith". Furthermore, the Protestant Ascendency insured that England maintained a degree of control over Ireland through what appeared to be "legitimate" rule by Irishmen; it just so happened that Protestants in power were more easily manipulated than Catholics in this regard. At one point (1750's), around 95% of Irish lands were under the control of the Protestant minority.
Confidence among the "Ascendents" hit a historic high around the 1770s with the foundation of Henry Grattan's Patriot Party, a political group that would go on to take control of the newly formed Irish Parliament (1782) and repeal a number of the Penal Codes in the hopes that Irish patriotism might solidify enough to make independence possible. This fledgling, still Protestant led Irish Nationalist movement hit a roadblock in Parliament around 1795. Meanwhile, Theobald Wolfe Tone's founding of the Society of the United Irishmen (1791), a democratic organization which sought to end discrimination against Catholics and work towards a unified and independent Irish republic, began to curry public favor and take note of what was going on in France and the US. Inspired by the French Revolution, Tone and others would lead a rebellion in 1798, ending with losses for both sides (though the Irish bore the brunt of the casualties).
In the chaos following the rebellion, uncertainty on the part of Great Britain in addition to an Irish Catholic desire to finally have their voices heard in in politics would lead to the passage of the Acts of Union (1801) and around the 1820s-1860s, a division amongst Irish nationalists began to take shape. On one hand, the more radically minded Irishmen subscribed to what is known as Irish Republicanism, and would go on to perpetrate violence in pursuit of a secular, egalitarian Ireland. On the other, the more moderate and landed Irish Nationalists, with the support of the Catholic Church, sought non-violent means of fighting English domination in addition to celebrating a distinctly Catholic Irish identity.
Common to both aspects of the Irish Nationalist movement was a new found celebration and focus on Irish cultural identity. Centuries of repressive British rule had done their best to stamp out relics like the Irish language, relics that could only serve to further reinforce the notion that the Irish were indeed their own people, and though the Acts of Union did their best to solidify Ireland's ties to England, the 19th century would go on to be full of reinvigorated Irish introspection. What began as political movement spilled over into culture and the arts, as Irish scholars such as John O'Donovan, Eugene O'Curry and George Petrie began to make public a great deal of historic Irish culture that had been forgotten. Though the bulk of what is considered modern Irish literature would go on to be written in English, peripheral interest in the then almost forgotten Irish language informed a great number of Ireland's writers, including Joyce. The Gaelic League was founded in 1893, providing an important nationalistic venue with which to encourage native born Irish writers and poets to celebrate their mother tongue and write in the Irish language.
So, now that we've a bit of distant background, let's get a tad closer to Joyce, his influences, and the literary world he wrote in. I've included the above poem by W.B. Yeats as an example of the Irish concern for the recognition of environmental connections/influence. Much of Yeats' poetry deals in the landscape, flora, and fauna of Ireland, naturalistic imagery that serves as a literary means of connecting the people of Ireland with the place they are from. Dubliners performs a similar operation with the people and city of Dublin; though he focuses on nothing in specificity, Joyce's mosaic of "people doing things" in Dublin operates as a sort of cultural consolidation. Very little had been written or expressed in regards to the general concept of Irish identity (save for Jonathan Swift and a few others), and the disparate tales in Dubliners give substance to the idea of a culture of Dublin.
The lack of explicit direction in plot or narrative in Dubliners is an important tenet of Modernist literary technique, in that Modernism sought to respond to the unflailing certainty inherent to Literary Realism's narrative tendencies. Though Tolstoy, Flaubert, and Balzac sought to do their best to accurately portray the world for what it was, conventions of narrative structure and the perceived importance of foreground characterizations ended up "getting in the way" of an accurate portrayal of reality. That is, if we are to take what the Modernists say at face value. Worthy of mention here is the contrast present in the origination of Irish Modernism in Joyce as opposed to Modernism's beginnings in England and France. In a sense, Modernism in Ireland came about as part of Ireland's new found cultural identity; Joyce's writings served as powerful illustrations of Irish identity that came to fill in a gap that had simply never been filled, whereas the British and French literary canons are full to the brim with reflective representations dating back to the days of John Dryden and Madame de La Fayette.
I'll post more background in the coming week, but in the meantime, get to reading those first 4 stories of Dubliners!
Lol I never thought I would have the pleasure to see people discussing the works of Joyce and Yeats here on TL. This thread just made my day.
I might try and catch up to you guys and read through all the books/comments when I have time. This looks like a great idea, I hope you all thoroughly enjoy every bit of it.
On April 30 2013 07:26 farvacola wrote: The Lake Isle of Innisfree (1888), By W .B. Yeats
I will arise and go now, and go to Innisfree, And a small cabin build there, of clay and wattles made; Nine bean rows will I have there, a hive for the honey bee, And live alone in the bee loud glade.
And I shall have some peace there, for peace comes dropping slow, Dropping from the veils of the morning to where the cricket sings; There midnight's all a glimmer, and noon a purple glow, And evening full of the linnet's wings.
I will arise and go now, for always night and day I hear lake water lapping with low sounds by the shore; While I stand on the roadway, or on the pavements grey, I hear it in the deep heart's core.
This is my favorite poem by Yeats, even though he is remembered for others, like The Second Coming, Byzantium, Sailing to Byzantium, The Circus Animal's Desertion, etc., Innisfree has always been one of my favorite poems to return to when I need a little pastoral . Though I don't think I'll read along with the book club this time, I'd love to see how you guys progress.
On April 30 2013 07:26 farvacola wrote: The Lake Isle of Innisfree (1888), By W .B. Yeats
I will arise and go now, and go to Innisfree, And a small cabin build there, of clay and wattles made; Nine bean rows will I have there, a hive for the honey bee, And live alone in the bee loud glade.
And I shall have some peace there, for peace comes dropping slow, Dropping from the veils of the morning to where the cricket sings; There midnight's all a glimmer, and noon a purple glow, And evening full of the linnet's wings.
I will arise and go now, for always night and day I hear lake water lapping with low sounds by the shore; While I stand on the roadway, or on the pavements grey, I hear it in the deep heart's core.
This is my favorite poem by Yeats, even though he is remembered for others, like The Second Coming, Byzantium, Sailing to Byzantium, The Circus Animal's Desertion, etc., Innisfree has always been one of my favorite poems to return to when I need a little pastoral . Though I don't think I'll read along with the book club this time, I'd love to see how you guys progress.
In reading that I was reminded of some of the poems of Patrick Kavanagh. I read some of his work during high school and I recall some of the same sort of pastoral feel to it.
As to the book at hand. I just managed to get my e-reader to accept it off the Project Gutenberg file so I'm excited to start reading! When is our first target date and what do we want to have read by then?
On April 30 2013 07:26 farvacola wrote: The Lake Isle of Innisfree (1888), By W .B. Yeats
I will arise and go now, and go to Innisfree, And a small cabin build there, of clay and wattles made; Nine bean rows will I have there, a hive for the honey bee, And live alone in the bee loud glade.
And I shall have some peace there, for peace comes dropping slow, Dropping from the veils of the morning to where the cricket sings; There midnight's all a glimmer, and noon a purple glow, And evening full of the linnet's wings.
I will arise and go now, for always night and day I hear lake water lapping with low sounds by the shore; While I stand on the roadway, or on the pavements grey, I hear it in the deep heart's core.
This is my favorite poem by Yeats, even though he is remembered for others, like The Second Coming, Byzantium, Sailing to Byzantium, The Circus Animal's Desertion, etc., Innisfree has always been one of my favorite poems to return to when I need a little pastoral . Though I don't think I'll read along with the book club this time, I'd love to see how you guys progress.
In reading that I was reminded of some of the poems of Patrick Kavanagh. I read some of his work during high school and I recall some of the same sort of pastoral feel to it.
As to the book at hand. I just managed to get my e-reader to accept it off the Project Gutenberg file so I'm excited to start reading! When is our first target date and what do we want to have read by then?
On April 27 2013 15:00 farvacola wrote:Since the entire book can be found here,, I think it's fair to ask folks to have the first 4 stories, or "The Sisters", "An Encounter", "Araby", and "Eveline", read for 2 weeks from Sunday, or May 12th. I'm leaning towards this having longer reading periods as opposed to short, just so that we have plenty of time (and because I'm hoping the extra stuff piques folks' interest).
Thanks for your post farva, interesting read I'll start soon :D
On April 30 2013 07:26 farvacola wrote: The Lake Isle of Innisfree (1888), By W .B. Yeats
I will arise and go now, and go to Innisfree, And a small cabin build there, of clay and wattles made; Nine bean rows will I have there, a hive for the honey bee, And live alone in the bee loud glade.
And I shall have some peace there, for peace comes dropping slow, Dropping from the veils of the morning to where the cricket sings; There midnight's all a glimmer, and noon a purple glow, And evening full of the linnet's wings.
I will arise and go now, for always night and day I hear lake water lapping with low sounds by the shore; While I stand on the roadway, or on the pavements grey, I hear it in the deep heart's core.
[...]
So, now that we've a bit of distant background, let's get a tad closer to Joyce, his influences, and the literary world he wrote in. I've included the above poem by W.B. Yeats as an example of the Irish concern for the recognition of environmental connections/influence. Much of Yeats' poetry deals in the landscape, flora, and fauna of Ireland, naturalistic imagery that serves as a literary means of connecting the people of Ireland with the place they are from.Dubliners performs a similar operation with the people and city of Dublin; though he focuses on nothing in specificity, Joyce's mosaic of "people doing things" in Dublin operates as a sort of cultural consolidation. Very little had been written or expressed in regards to the general concept of Irish identity (save for Jonathan Swift and a few others), and the disparate tales in Dubliners give substance to the idea of a culture of Dublin.
I would never have guessed this at all, given the rather general imagery of the poem. I wonder how one would've guessed that this is geared towards Irish nationalistic imagery if the place "Innisfree" had been marked out (and I did not even know what Innisfree was until I checked it up) and if the poet had remained anonymous. I can see how it is valid to say this of Dubliners, of course, since the "flavor of Dublin" comes out rather strong in the writing, but in this poem ... well, I suppose this is why one is not supposed to read poems entirely free of context.
Thx for this great topic. I've only discovered it now, so couldn't vote Ulyssess... I have picked it up when I left Dublin after 3 years, but it's so damn hard. Anyway, Dubliners shouldn't be bad practice I guess
On April 30 2013 07:26 farvacola wrote: The Lake Isle of Innisfree (1888), By W .B. Yeats
I will arise and go now, and go to Innisfree, And a small cabin build there, of clay and wattles made; Nine bean rows will I have there, a hive for the honey bee, And live alone in the bee loud glade.
And I shall have some peace there, for peace comes dropping slow, Dropping from the veils of the morning to where the cricket sings; There midnight's all a glimmer, and noon a purple glow, And evening full of the linnet's wings.
I will arise and go now, for always night and day I hear lake water lapping with low sounds by the shore; While I stand on the roadway, or on the pavements grey, I hear it in the deep heart's core.
[...]
So, now that we've a bit of distant background, let's get a tad closer to Joyce, his influences, and the literary world he wrote in. I've included the above poem by W.B. Yeats as an example of the Irish concern for the recognition of environmental connections/influence. Much of Yeats' poetry deals in the landscape, flora, and fauna of Ireland, naturalistic imagery that serves as a literary means of connecting the people of Ireland with the place they are from.Dubliners performs a similar operation with the people and city of Dublin; though he focuses on nothing in specificity, Joyce's mosaic of "people doing things" in Dublin operates as a sort of cultural consolidation. Very little had been written or expressed in regards to the general concept of Irish identity (save for Jonathan Swift and a few others), and the disparate tales in Dubliners give substance to the idea of a culture of Dublin.
I would never have guessed this at all, given the rather general imagery of the poem. I wonder how one would've guessed that this is geared towards Irish nationalistic imagery if the place "Innisfree" had been marked out (and I did not even know what Innisfree was until I checked it up) and if the poet had remained anonymous. I can see how it is valid to say this of Dubliners, of course, since the "flavor of Dublin" comes out rather strong in the writing, but in this poem ... well, I suppose this is why one is not supposed to read poems entirely free of context.
You are quite right here, and I think it, in part, speaks to the universality of Yeats' particular brand of pastoral imagery. Without much context, "Innisfree" might as well be a lake isle in the US, England, or France, but it is important to keep in mind just how much cultural destruction had been practiced on the part of the English in pursuit of controlling Ireland; to speak on the Emerald Isle at all was relatively unusual as a literary move. Furthermore, "Innisfree" is likely one of the least "Celtic" of Yeats' poems, and it is oftentimes highlighted for that reason, for Yeats served as one of the "gatekeepers" of the tension inherent to the push for an emphasis on the newly rediscovered Gaelic culture/Irish language and the already established and arguably more influential Anglo-Irish tradition. Consider this poem as a contrast with "Innisfree".
The Hosting Of The Sidhe (1899)
The host is riding from Knocknarea And over the grave of Clooth-na-Bare; Caoilte tossing his burning hair, And Niamh calling Away, come away: Empty your heart of its mortal dream. The winds awaken, the leaves whirl round, Our cheeks are pale, our hair is unbound, Our breasts are heaving our eyes are agleam, Our arms are waving our lips are apart; And if any gaze on our rushing band, We come between him and the deed of his hand, We come between him and the hope of his heart. The host is rushing 'twixt night and day, And where is there hope or deed as fair? Caoilte tossing his burning hair, And Niamh calling Away, come away.
It is interesting to note that, as the turn of the 20th century commenced, English more or less won out as the lingua franca of mainstream Irish literature. Consider, for a moment, why Joyce, Yeats, and Beckett's most popular and canonical works are in English. All three published material in Irish, and yet, much of it remains relatively unknown to this day. Now whether or not this speaks to some sort of insular celebration of Irish culture or a continuing discrimination against all things inexhorably Irish is a difficult question.
Technically, most of Beckett's canonical works are in French.
And Irish was quite popular at the turn of the century. They didn't call it the Irish revival for nothing. It has faded in historical relevance, and that is probably due in large part to Joyce, who detested everyone associated with the movement save Yeats.
On May 03 2013 08:45 negativedge wrote: Technically, most of Beckett's canonical works are in French.
And Irish was quite popular at the turn of the century. They didn't call it the Irish revival for nothing. It has faded in historical relevance, and that is probably due in large part to Joyce, who detested everyone associated with the movement save Yeats.
Yeah, I suppose including Beckett in that list is problematic given his love for the French language, though I am relatively unaware as to how the academy views the reading and consumption of Beckett in English as opposed to French (as I do not know French, I've only read Beckett in English ) In any case, you are right to point out that Irish was popular as a means of cultural celebration during the time period. It is most certainly incredibly interesting to consider Joyce's role in the popularity and spread of the use of Irish as a means of Irish cultural expression; his leaving Dublin in 1912, never to return, almost certainly played a role in his decision to use English as his primary written language, in addition to political disputes with the Gaelic Revival movement.
I don't have much background in Joyce, and I am not sure how popular his Irish pieces are (so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), but I wonder if some of his English pieces are given more attention simply because of their overwhelming complexity. (I am of course thinking about Ulysses and Finnegan's Wake.) People tend to notice more puzzling stories (i.e. those in which the meaning can be widely contested) over clear stories (whose meaning is much more straightforward where any sort of discussion doesn't add much to a person's overall understanding of the work in question).
On May 03 2013 09:12 babylon wrote: I don't have much background in Joyce, and I am not sure how popular his Irish pieces are (so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), but I wonder if some of his English pieces are given more attention simply because of their overwhelming complexity. (I am of course thinking about Ulysses and Finnegan's Wake.) People tend to notice more puzzling stories (i.e. those in which the meaning can be widely contested) over clear stories (whose meaning is much more straightforward where any sort of discussion doesn't add much to a person's overall understanding of the work in question).
I think you're on to something here; while it is unlikely that Joyce played any conscionable role in the association of his work with the Irish cultural revival, history and the Western Canon seem quite alright with putting his works at the forefront of what is considered "Irish", when in reality, a great deal of Joyce's choices insofar as the language, structure, and direction of his works speak to an interest in English language formalism. His correspondence and friendship with Ezra Pound no doubt played a role in this; in fact, one can trace the roots of Modernism rather neatly alongside the many literary friendships of Pound. Imagism, a proto-Modernist literary movement in poetry which focused on using language in a more "precise" manner (partly in response to the stylizations of the Romantic and Victorian poetry which dominated the limelight), spread throughout Europe due in large part to the friendships of Pound, and it would make a great deal of sense to think that Joyce felt compelled to carry over this inherent criticism towards standard literary form in his own works post-Dubliners. With this in mind, it becomes clear that, while Joyce clearly loved his native country, a focus on authentic/organic "Irish" culture proved of less importance to Joyce than his pursuit of challenging the strictures of English-language expression. Dublin became more a vehicle than the focus post-Dubliners it would seem.
On May 03 2013 08:45 negativedge wrote: Technically, most of Beckett's canonical works are in French.
And Irish was quite popular at the turn of the century. They didn't call it the Irish revival for nothing. It has faded in historical relevance, and that is probably due in large part to Joyce, who detested everyone associated with the movement save Yeats.
I don't think his English translations pose that much of a problem, since he did his own translations. If another translator worked on a text instead of the author, I'd have more of a problem with the translation as an interpretation.
I have read the first three stories once now. I will read them again later when I have a general idea of what this is all about. If I want to get much out of this, I feel I need your help. I have no background on Irish history or history of literature, so anything you can explain to me wil probably help.
I liked farva's first piece of background information a lot, so please keep them coming. If you have some basic information on Modernism, please post that as well. I really have no background on this at all, but I would like to learn.
One small request: Please keep the amount of poetry in this thread low. Poetry is even hard in your native language when you have all the cultural background. But when you do not even understand all the words (and some of them are hard to find in dictionaries) and cannot decipher any of the symbols the author uses, poetry gets really hard. Literature in a foreign language is hard anyway, so at least keeping poetry out would make life easier for me as a non-native speaker.
Gurke, if you have ample free time (or have a mindless job during which you can put on youtube like me), you might want to check out this open course series on literary theory. It's a crash course and more about the history of lit. theory than the history of literature, but those two subjects tend to intersect more often than not, and you may find it interesting.
I don't think we'll be focusing much on poetry, just using some poems as illustrative examples.
On May 05 2013 02:27 babylon wrote: Gurke, if you have ample free time (or have a mindless job during which you can put on youtube like me), you might want to check out this open course series on literary theory. It's a crash course and more about the history of lit. theory than the history of literature, but those two subjects tend to intersect more often than not, and you may find it interesting.
I don't think we'll be focusing much on poetry, just using some poems as illustrative examples.
Thank you, I had to do maths this week, and read Kant and Dubliners. And now I'll have to look at that on top of thing ! Ahah, first part of introduction was really interesting, looking forward to watching the rest !
On May 04 2013 19:21 123Gurke wrote: I have read the first three stories once now. I will read them again later when I have a general idea of what this is all about. If I want to get much out of this, I feel I need your help. I have no background on Irish history or history of literature, so anything you can explain to me wil probably help.
I liked farva's first piece of background information a lot, so please keep them coming. If you have some basic information on Modernism, please post that as well. I really have no background on this at all, but I would like to learn.
One small request: Please keep the amount of poetry in this thread low. Poetry is even hard in your native language when you have all the cultural background. But when you do not even understand all the words (and some of them are hard to find in dictionaries) and cannot decipher any of the symbols the author uses, poetry gets really hard. Literature in a foreign language is hard anyway, so at least keeping poetry out would make life easier for me as a non-native speaker.
By Monday I'll have another bit on the beginnings of Modernism up, mostly in regards to the artistic side of things (one cannot speak on Modernism without talking about the Post-Impressionists and Roger Fry).
As to the stories, keep in mind that part of Dubliners' style is a disregard for conventional notions of plot movement and story, so if you read them and are left thinking, "Well what's the point?", that's quite alright.
As for the poetry, the teacher in me is compelled to attempt to help you understand the poetry rather than eschew it all together, so if you've any questions on the two I've posted so far, feel free to hit me up with a list of words and phrases that are unfamiliar or difficult to access. If the second poem (The Hosting of the Sidhe) is the one troubling you, keep in mind that a lot of the words are actually Irish and not English, and you are likely right alongside a fair number of English speakers in not understanding them. I'm of the opinion that far more people would enjoy poetry if only they were given the proper means with which to read it, so I'll do my best to keep the poetry to a relative minimum while explaining as much as I can. Considering that the poetry of T.E. Hulme and Ezra Pound form the backbone to the emergence of literary Modernism in a sense, I think we sort of have to go through the pains of reading some
Don't get me wrong: I do like poetry from time to time. But it often needs a level of familiarity with a language that you just don't have when it's not your native language. One does not only need the direct translation of words but also needs to know in which context, with which idioms they are used and which connotations they have. So if you want to add some Rilke into this thread, I will be perfectly fine with this But English poems are just hard for me. Feel free to add poems if you think they are necessary and helpful for the discussion. Just be aware that for some of us non-native speakers they might not be helpful.
The style of Dubliners does not confuse me too much. I guess I have read (and enjoyed) stranger stuff. And after rading the first four stories, I have a general idea of what these stories will be like. So far I find this book club very interesting and I think Dubliners if probably a good choice to start this off.
@babylon: Thanks for the link! I do not have the time to watch this right now, but I hope to do it in a few weeks when things are less busy.
I think with good but succint explanation, a poem will be understandable to a foreign person. For instance, what if I posted Mallamé's Sonnet en X ? + Show Spoiler +
Ses purs ongles très haut dédiant leur onyx, L'Angoisse, ce minuit, soutient, lampadophore, Maint rêve vespéral brûlé par le Phénix Que ne recueille pas de cinéraire amphore
Sur les crédences, au salon vide : nul ptyx Aboli bibelot d'inanité sonore, (Car le Maître est allé puiser des pleurs au Styx Avec ce seul objet dont le Néant s'honore.)
Mais proche la croisée au nord vacante, un or Agonise selon peut-être le décor Des licornes ruant du feu contre une nixe,
Elle, défunte nue en le miroir, encor Que, dans l'oubli fermé par le cadre, se fixe De scintillations sitôt le septuor.
Well, I think in terms of meaning, almost no level of familiarity with the French language would help - either you've already stuided the poem in question, or you're very smart and you have quite some time to think about it, or well, you're probably thinking wtf is this. But the native French speaker has an advantage : he has a direct understanding of the musicality of the poem. I think that's what the hardest to understand, and what makes foreign poetry pretty discouraging. Especially betwqeen French and English for instance, as the musicality work is such different ways... Luckily, it seems that what farvacola intends with poetry has more to do with the meaning of it, than with its musicality, and as long as we don't choose a poetry book, we should be fine on that matter.
If I can digress a bit more, the course provided by Babylon, it's pretty incredible how I know a bit with every non-English-speaking source used in the course, in part because there are a ton of French ones^^, and I know almost none of the English speaking ones... Proof that the discussion group is going to be useful ! Anyway, onto An Encounter :D
Just finished the sisters and I was wondering a couple things about the stories given that they are written in the first person
A: Are they meant to all be about the same person? I've only just started reading the second story and it seems like it would make a difference whether this might be the same person.
B: Are these meant to be autobiographical in any way? It would be an interesting insight to joyce's views on several things if he thinks the same way as his characters do.
I think the story was pretty interesting. I have a decent amount of iris family, and from them as well as other stuff that I've read (notably angela's ashes) I get the sense of a pretty significant role of religion (particularly the catholic chrurch) in society and personal life, especially the further back you go in irish history. This story seemed to convey that pretty well. Looking forward to "An Encounter"!
They are not the same person. You will see the style and perspective of each story bend towards each narrator. Or rather--
All writing is autobiographical in one way or another. As far as these stories being directly reflective of episodes in Joyce's life, no, that is not generally thought to be the case. But these stories are supposed to represent the Irish character and condition that Joyce observed and partook in. If you want actual autobiography, you should read Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. It is not perfectly analogous with Joyce's life--particularly in mood--but it is his story and many of his beliefs, adn in it he reorients writer and written work in a way fairly unseen up until that point.
--I may have lied in the first sentence of this post. There are some who believe that the protagonist of "The Sisters," "An Encounter," and "Araby" is Stephen Dedalus (the protagonist of the Portrait). I don't think this would play much of a role in deciding how autobiographical these stories are versus the rest of the book, as the collection itself is very much a whole meant to give a particular impression of Dublin. It is an interesting idea within the Joyce mythology and for those more interested in the particular literary role of Stephen in Joyce's work (and that is a much larger story), but it is entirely possible to read these stories without any idea of whether or not they share a protagonist. The rest of the stories are less ambiguous in this particular way.
On May 06 2013 05:05 packrat386 wrote:I think the story was pretty interesting. I have a decent amount of iris family, and from them as well as other stuff that I've read (notably angela's ashes) I get the sense of a pretty significant role of religion (particularly the catholic chrurch) in society and personal life
You will see this at every point in Joyce's work--even when you don't think you are seeing it. Religious identity is at the heart of Irish history and Irish life. At the turn of the century (which is when these stories were written and take place), Catholicism is the central facet of Irish daily life and political identity, but it is also feeling the weight of the tentative opposition from the Irish revival, the Gaelic League, Sinn Fein, and other nationalist movements (as well as tensions with the Protestant and even Jewish minorities within Ireland). Joyce himself often referred to Ireland has bowing to the twin giants of Rome and London, and he eventually fled in no small part because of those fealties. Joyce's relationship with religion and with the cultural heritage bequeathed to him by it is everywhere in his work.
On May 06 2013 05:05 packrat386 wrote: Just finished the sisters and I was wondering a couple things about the stories given that they are written in the first person
A: Are they meant to all be about the same person? I've only just started reading the second story and it seems like it would make a difference whether this might be the same person.
B: Are these meant to be autobiographical in any way? It would be an interesting insight to joyce's views on several things if he thinks the same way as his characters do.
I think the story was pretty interesting. I have a decent amount of iris family, and from them as well as other stuff that I've read (notably angela's ashes) I get the sense of a pretty significant role of religion (particularly the catholic chrurch) in society and personal life, especially the further back you go in irish history. This story seemed to convey that pretty well. Looking forward to "An Encounter"!
Though negativedge and Carnivorous Sheep have already given more than sufficient answers, I'll add a bit of my own perspective.
A: Almost certainly not. There do exist people who will tell you that you ought to be open to the possibility of such an interrelation, but I am of the opinion that such a ploy requires an overindulgent emphasis on relativistic reader response as the primary means of analyzing a book. In other words, while the reader more or less has "the last word" when it comes to interpretation (even this is controversial ), I think there is enough evidence in style and characterization throughout Dubliners to relegate the "is this the same character?" idea pretty toothless.
B. This is a very difficult question, in that it hinges on a fundamental concern of literary criticism, that being the question of, "How close are author and work, and is there an essential distance?" One could ask this at 100 different English departments and receive 100 different answers, though some will definitely be more right than others. My personal answer would be, "Maybe, and maybe.". What ends up being important here harkens back to what I said in regards to the choice of lens and the manner with which one wants or needs to read a book. If we are to approach Dubliners in a general sense, I think one ought to eschew concerns for autobiography in pursuit of an "organic" experience; the general focus is on the place and people of Dublin, and one can come to a very satisfactory understanding of the work without forcing themselves to look for the places in which Joyce becomes transparent in authorial intent (they certainly do exist).
Alternatively, if one approaches Dubliners from the perspective of " Who is James Joyce the author?", the stylizations and rhetorical decisions made throughout Dubliners all provide ample opportunity for such a reading. As others have already said, Dubliners acts as as sort of literary "stepping stone" for Joyce in that it tends more towards realism a la Henrik Ibsen and Gustave Flaubert, especially for the first 3/4 of the book. This was also his first major work (Chamber Music doesn't quite count imo), and as we make our way through it, it will become clear that, by the time he finished the final story (The Dead), his attitudes towards style and form had most certainly changed.
On May 08 2013 04:33 blubbdavid wrote: Why do you guys read? What is your motivation in a world where you get strange looks when you carry around a book.
And I hope I'll be able to finish the assigned task, but I don't have much time.
Well, as an aside on actual books as opposed to digital medial, I simply enjoy holding and reading from paper. Even the smell of actual books trumps anything a Kindle or e-reader can provide. I'm also a victim of my upbringing; having grown up with a father and mother who instilled in me a certain disregard for those who did not read voraciously, I struggle daily to look for the best in those who do not share my love for the written word. Far too many people put the horse before the cart in thinking that writing and speaking come before reading in order of importance, and I think this plays a large role in a lot of the political and societal problems the world faces today.
With any luck, this book club will get a few more people reading, and that's really all that I can ask
I just read the short stories. I went in expecting it to be about Irish resistance, but all of the stories are just about Irish people doing Irish things. So are one of the points of the stories just to simply write about Irish life and publicize it?
On May 08 2013 08:29 Whole wrote: I just read the short stories. I went in expecting it to be about Irish resistance, but all of the stories are just about Irish people doing Irish things. So are one of the points of the stories just to simply write about Irish life and publicize it?
Yep, Dubliners could be considered a sort of panoramic view of Dublin seen through the eyes of the people who live there. It is also important to keep in mind that a "maturation" takes place as the stories progress. These first 4 stories could be considered the "children's" stories in that they focus on the perspectives of youth as they look up at the world around them. As we continue on, the protagonists will become older and older, and the subject matter will become more and more complex, both in form and content. "Ivy Day in the Green Room" is by far the most political story, and while the Irish cultural revival rarely takes center stage, it certainly begins to inform more of the writing as things go on, just as one tends to become more and more knowledgeable of the world around them as they grow older.
Finished Eveline. I really like the theme of emigration in a work meamt to capture the spirit of the irish people. I think it did an especially good job of highlighting the conflict between not wanting to lose familial and social ties vs feeling trapped in a particular role.
That said, I was trying to figure out the ending. It seems to me like she had some kind of a dream in which she got left behind (or stayed behind?) but it was all very unclear to me. Any help on how to read that? (I'm an engineer, bear with me)
On May 09 2013 04:14 packrat386 wrote: Finished Eveline. I really like the theme of emigration in a work meamt to capture the spirit of the irish people. I think it did an especially good job of highlighting the conflict between not wanting to lose familial and social ties vs feeling trapped in a particular role.
That said, I was trying to figure out the ending. It seems to me like she had some kind of a dream in which she got left behind (or stayed behind?) but it was all very unclear to me. Any help on how to read that? (I'm an engineer, bear with me)
She was about to actually leave to Buenos Aires with Frank when, at the docks, she had a change of heart. She ends up resisting as Frank and the crowds board the ship, and remained in Dublin.
In an attempt to kick start conversation, I decided to write something specific about "The Sisters." My goal was to give people an idea of how to read a story like this. Then I kept going and all of a sudden I was half-writing an essay, and I was doing it in a way that took me away from where I wanted to go in regards to the way this story (and collection) operates. A good piece of literature is an endless well, and if the methodologies and interpretations I dabbled in here are not exactly the ones I went in with, nor, perhaps, ones best suited to a thread like this, I think that fact alone demonstrates some of the reasons for its existence. What I post here isn't even a finished thought (nor is it particularly polished or well structured), but I figure the length required to bring it around is far out of whack with the experience of a message board, so I present it as is. If people are somehow sufficiently interested, I can finish it.
**
On account of their supposed economy, it is a general rule of thumb when dealing with short stories to pay particular attention to the opening paragraph. Should the story be well constructed, it is often thought that these paragraphs are of thematic and/or structural import. It is advisable to assume that interesting details presented at the beginning of a story are not incidental. If you are looking for a place to orient yourself in a short text, it is a good idea to keep anything striking about the introduction in mind. Given the patience and stylistic economy of the stories of Dubliners, this is not a bad rule.
The introduction to “The Sisters” is encapsulated by death, sin, and detail. Death is signified by change, in that the protagonist is made aware of its occurrence or its delay via minute differences in the lighting within Father Flynn’s window. The movement of change within this scene connotes death, but death itself is a result of paralysis, the first of three particular words with mysterious associations that Joyce focuses on in this paragraph. There is a gap between the sign of death and the cause of death, and this gap takes the form of opposition, which may be seen as the newfound “maleficence” the protagonist attributes to the name of paralysis. While confronting the reality of death and the various “realities” of the paralysis that grip not only the characters and events of this story but of the entire collection, the protagonist fixates instead on the word paralysis and its particular aural and imagistic associations within his mind. The linguistic, associative, intellectual play of the word paralysis in the protagonist’s mind is characterized by a certain mutability that is absent not only in the meaning of paralysis, but also in the actual instance of paralysis, which both produces death through rigidity and then becomes an attribute of it. The language is alive where the reality is not. The play of this relationship signifies the “deadly work” of perception in the face of causation. This is an ordering principle of Dubliners.
I would tell the reader to look for these gaps. Where does the language, the narration, or the imagery of these stories exert a certain weight or produce a kind of leverage against the action? It is as much a question of what the particulars hide as one of what they reveal.
The protagonist relates paralysis to the word “gnomon” though a measure of linguistic play. Why gnomon? The text helpfully gives us the Euclidean relation, which reveals one of the word’s several meanings. If you are versed in Euclid, are reading an annotated copy of the story, or are inquisitive enough to fire up your internet browser, you will find that a Euclidean gnomon is the remainder of a parallelogram in which a smaller duplicate parallelogram has been removed from one of its corners. This provides us with a few relevant principles of the gnomon. From the general to the specific: 1) the gnomon is a whole from which a part is missing; 2) the missing part is a microcosm of the the whole; 3) the separation of the part from the whole fundamentally alters the nature of what remains. This structure is applicable to Dubliners and its various parts.
Within “The Sisters,” the “part” of the story that we might view as “missing” is the particular nature of Father Flynn. Nearly every character in the story save the protagonist offers some unfinished pronouncement on Father Flynn’s history, social status, or mannerisms. Old Cotter notes that “there was something queer…. […] something uncanny about him.” He also has his “own theory” about Father Flynn’s “peculiar case” which remains unuttered. To the aunt, “he was a disappointed man” about whom she had “heard something.” To Eliza he was “too scrupulous.” In general, the ambiguous “they” of Dublin thought that “there was something gone wrong with him.” It is intimated that he lost his position within the church. The protagonist is quiet in this regard, which one might take as his youthful lack of understanding or interest in the universal pronouncements of the adults around him. The first half of the story showcases the protagonist’s quick eye, his inquisitiveness, and his anger toward the incompetency of the remaining adults in his life. But as the events move forward his viewpoint and mannerisms are erased from the narration. As the story develops, the protagonist recedes further into the background, left with the remnants of a dream, the dissociated impressions of particular words and interjections, a preoccupation with the judgments of those around him, and, finally, the concretized image of the dead man in his coffin. The linguistic play and flights of fancy that introduce us to his perspective decay in the face of absence to the point where he even fails to recall the end of the dream within which he cryptically associates the image of Father Flynn with sin. The movement of the story toward death is the movement toward the paralysis of reality. Father Flynn dead in his coffin, forever leaving an empty space for the chalice “idle on his breast,” the broken symbol of forbearance and communion; the protagonist mute in his chair; Nannie frozen and asleep; the Aunt capable only of painful platitudes. Only Eliza plows forward, but her dialog is feeble and groping. She misuses words, makes idle associations and and speaks with the dialect and parlance of an uneducated commoner in contrast to her brother’s erstwhile (and the protagonists burgeoning) erudition. What is “missing” in regards to Flynn leaves a hole in the discourse of the story, a gap that calls to mind the disassociation between signification and causation—image and reality—that informs the protagonist’s musings throughout the story.
These gaps in the discourse are most clearly presented in the vague pronouncements of Old Cotter, who menaces the protagonist with empty prejudice and unformed conclusions, leaving Joyce to goad us, along with the protagonist, into “extract[ing] meaning from his unfinished sentences.” But extracting meaning from partial signs is the young boy’s primary occupation in the text, from the signification of the uniformity of the lighting in Father Flynn’s window in the first paragraph to the mystery of the invisible chalice resting on his chest at the end. It is not just that the boy is searching for what is missing in Flynn’s narrative, or even that the reader is left to do the same, but that the movement of signification below the calcified weight of the unresolved events that make up the plot of “The Sisters” provides a counterforce to the helplessness that freezes the total work in place.
That Flynn is affiliated with the Catholic Church, which takes as its social foundation the relationship between mystery and symbolism, is no accident. The protagonist mentions that Father Flynn “showed [him] how complex and mysterious were certain institutions of the church which [he] had always regarded as the simplest acts.” The primary “institutions” mentioned here and later imbued with narrative significance are those of the eucharist and the confessional, concerned, respectively, with the weight of symbolism and the economy of secrecy. The ritual of the eucharist enacts the transference of the image to reality. It is the purest example of the mind’s power of signification. It is also pure mystery, a gap in human knowledge bequeathed to certain individuals by a power beyond their capability to truly understand or transmit. While the Eucharistic ritual is openly communal, the confessional’s social function is to transmit the isolation of the individual into a meaningful action. In giving voice to sin, the confessional oversees the transfer of the reality of the act to the transparent sign of contrition. The priest’s role is to act as conduit for the transference of an internal struggle (i.e., guilt) into a social act. The point is not to absolve the act of sin, but to receive in place of the transgression a reliable mechanism for generalizing it. The transference generates a kind of symbolic currency. The silent, still, receptive nature of the Catholic Mass, in which the community gathers to submit themselves to what they literally do not understand (at the time of this story all Catholic services were given in Latin) masks a deep undercurrent of movement, transference, and exchange.
The third italicized word in the opening paragraph of “The Sisters” is simony, the sin of selling spiritual favors or benefits. Within the act of simony, the spiritual economies of the Catholic institution are literalized and made quantifiable by the interference of temporal symbolism. In some way simony marks and makes bare the incompatibility of two competing institutions of social regulation. While there is little evidence within the story that Father Flynn is a simoniac, the locus of the protagonist’s dream brings paralysis, Father Flynn, simony, and the movement of signification into relief. Within the dream, Father Flynn’s attempts at confession are silenced, which could indicate the mortal nature of the sin of simony, for which no confession would be adequate; coupled with the dropped chalice, however, it becomes clear that the narrative’s focus is more on Flynn’s communicative isolation than on the nature of what may or may not have been his particular transgressions. The “paralysis” that afflicts the priest is as much social as physical. Whether or not the spiritual dimension may be added to his sickness is almost irrelevant. If the sin in question represents an illicit movement between the spiritual and the temporal that betrays, among other things, the prominence of the Mass and the confessional as social currencies, then what we see in the case of Father Flynn is the result of the decay of this movement. Simony is paralysis in that it delegitimizes privileged means of social movement. What caused the decay is the missing piece of the gnomon, but that is sleight of hand. The nature of “missing” is itself the aim of the narrative. Father Flynn’s position as a tarnished religious figure functionally brought low by his inability to imbue the eucharist and the confessional with their symbolic mystery has decayed the social reality of those around him. All communication in “The Sisters” is stilted and unfinished. The pall of the broken priest serves as stand in for all paralysis, all decay, all death, all sin, all isolation. What is missing from the gnomon is an image of the whole.
Thanks for posting that. It was an interesting look into how to look at the story.
I particularly liked the explanation of the sense of mystery in the catholic church. Much of my family is catholic and I've experienced firsthand the way in which the service revolves around mystery and tradition. In particular it is telling that a central part of the mass is the "Mystery of Faith" in which as you said the community commits themselves to that which they aren't meant to understand. Given the centrality of the catholic church in Irish life at this time I think a story focusing on acceptance of mystery and unfinished business strikes at the heart of the Irish identity.
very insightful. I didn't really understand The Sisters as it was the first story and I didn't really realize how big Catholicism played a big part in the stories until the second one. I grew up in a Catholic community too, so I'm going to go reread it and really try to notice all of the religious aspects that I probably skimmed over.
So far, I have read through the first 3 short stories, and have enjoyed the subtle complexities to each of them. But I have no real clue what 'the encounter' was about, the sudden change of pace at the end was odd. I am excited to see what others have thought about it and maybe help me grasp what Joyce was trying to portray in that story
On May 12 2013 10:32 xarchaosx wrote: So far, I have read through the first 3 short stories, and have enjoyed the subtle complexities to each of them. But I have no real clue what 'the encounter' was about, the sudden change of pace at the end was odd. I am excited to see what others have thought about it and maybe help me grasp what Joyce was trying to portray in that story
On a basic plot level, it's two boys who ditch school and end up running into an old man. The old man talks to the boys about various topics, and it's implied that when he excuses himself, he's masturbating.
There's no explicit textual evidence to support it, beyond maybe the line "I say... He's a queer old josser!" At this point in history, the word "queer" had already begun to take on some of its modern, sexual implications.
The old man returns, and "He seemed to have forgotten his recent liberalism." He starts talking about corporal punishment, etc., a marked departure from his seemingly kind and understanding earlier demeanor. The boys extricate themselves and the story ends.
On a more thematic level, all the stories in Dubliners deal with the same general set of issues, and this one is no exception. Think about concepts like paralysis (a very central idea to the understanding of Dubliners), escape/confinement, disappointment, etc. For example, the boys longed for a day of adventure and seeing exciting new sights, but are instead only met with disappointment as they get into a somewhat disturbing encounter. The boys (and Irish citizens as a whole) feel trapped by various factors like family (as seen in Eveline), social insitutions (school in this story), religion (Araby and this one also), etc., and are unable to escape. There is a strong distinction drawn between the narrator and Mahony, highlighting a difference in them. The old man says, to the narrator:
"Ah, I can see you are a bookworm like myself. Now," he added, pointing to Mahony who was regarding us with open eyes, "he is different; he goes in for games."
Giving the idea that the old man's life is what's in the future for the narrator unless something changes, since they are both painting as thinking, introverted individuals who are unable to take action to change their situation. This idea recurs very strongly in the later story "A Little Cloud."
A pretty basic and straightforward explanation of "An Encounter," and there's certainly much more than I've outlined here. Hope this helps.
On May 13 2013 04:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: wait wtf we have an irc? what network, quakenet?
Yep, go through quakenet. For the IRC newbies, just go to http://webchat.quakenet.org/, choose a name, and head to channel #TLBC. We won't be able to get very in depth but it should provide us a nice chance to get a conversation going
On May 12 2013 10:32 xarchaosx wrote: So far, I have read through the first 3 short stories, and have enjoyed the subtle complexities to each of them. But I have no real clue what 'the encounter' was about, the sudden change of pace at the end was odd. I am excited to see what others have thought about it and maybe help me grasp what Joyce was trying to portray in that story
On a basic plot level, it's two boys who ditch school and end up running into an old man. The old man talks to the boys about various topics, and it's implied that when he excuses himself, he's masturbating.
There's no explicit textual evidence to support it, beyond maybe the line "I say... He's a queer old josser!" At this point in history, the word "queer" had already begun to take on some of its modern, sexual implications.
Well, wow, I totally missed that. I take it that the use of "queer" in The Sisters carries a similar implication, then?
On May 12 2013 10:32 xarchaosx wrote: So far, I have read through the first 3 short stories, and have enjoyed the subtle complexities to each of them. But I have no real clue what 'the encounter' was about, the sudden change of pace at the end was odd. I am excited to see what others have thought about it and maybe help me grasp what Joyce was trying to portray in that story
On a basic plot level, it's two boys who ditch school and end up running into an old man. The old man talks to the boys about various topics, and it's implied that when he excuses himself, he's masturbating.
There's no explicit textual evidence to support it, beyond maybe the line "I say... He's a queer old josser!" At this point in history, the word "queer" had already begun to take on some of its modern, sexual implications.
Well, wow, I totally missed that. I take it that the use of "queer" in The Sisters carries a similar implication, then?
Everyone try and have the next four stories, or "After the Race", "Two Gallants", "The Boarding House", and "A Little Cloud", read for this Sunday the 19th. I'll have a write up done either today or tomorrow that covers our previous IRC meeting in addition to pertinent background information. As we progress through Dubliners, discussions of genre and style influence become more important, in very much the same way Joyce began to be exposed to the beginnings of Modernism through his friendships with the likes of Pound, so prepare thyself!
Also, our IRC meeting will take place this Saturday at 10:30 PST, so note the change and try and make it if you missed last week!
Oh man, I just saw this. Will do my best to pick up the book and catch up with everyone. If not, I'll be there for the next one.
Recommendation: for the next book, could we pick a more contemporary novel that isn't so English Major canon? The Magus by John Fowles is supposed to be amaze-balls.
So I just finished "After the Race" and "The Two Gallants"
I must say I found the lighthearted, party til the sun comes back up, nature of "After the Race" to be really enjoyable. It definitely made me remember times when I've done something like that with my good friends. I can also definitely sympathize with the young, carefree attitude of the narrator as thats basically summed up my life so far.
I though that "The Two Gallants" made the narrator seem really sort of sad. Do you think that the let down after the party was intended to be an overarching theme for Joyce or did it just happen that these 2 stories go nicely after each other (close to the same age narrators etc.)
I was also wondering what exactly happens in the last scene where the narrators friend reveals the gold coin. I was never quite sure what he was supposed to be "trying" with the girl he meets up with. Whatever it was seems like it was unsuccessful given his countenance but the gold coin in particular confused me.
Lastly in both stories I really like the imagery of walking through Grafton Street and St Stephens Green to be really nice as I've been to both places and they are quite nice.
As mentioned before, the stories follow a progression in the narrators' ages, from youth to late-middle aged at the end. So all the stories you read in succession will have similarly aged narrators. I think the Two Gallants characters are a few years older than After the Race, but I could be mis-remembering.
The gold coin was the original goal of Corley and Lenehan. The whole plan was to get familiar with a girl and get her to steal from her employer.
On May 18 2013 20:56 packrat386 wrote: Should we update the banner to reflect the next IRC discussion?
Yeah, looks like I couldn't get a mods attention lol. Since no one showed up (cept for Packrat ), I'll try and be on the same time we met last week, that being Sunday around 3, though I can't say for certain and will likely have to only drop by near the end. In any case, expect this thread to have more updates in the near future, this whole "preparing for law school applications" thing is taking up more time than I had expected
On May 17 2013 07:55 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: As mentioned before, the stories follow a progression in the narrators' ages, from youth to late-middle aged at the end. So all the stories you read in succession will have similarly aged narrators. I think the Two Gallants characters are a few years older than After the Race, but I could be mis-remembering.
The gold coin was the original goal of Corley and Lenehan. The whole plan was to get familiar with a girl and get her to steal from her employer.
How do you know about the plan? I could not find anything about it at the start of the story. I finished reading and had no idea what the plan was.
On May 21 2013 04:23 packrat386 wrote: So I sort of missed the discussion yesterday, anyone got the highlights available?
I didn't make it either, so I'm hoping we can get more folks to show up on Saturday and we'll have an extended session. There's no way I can make Sundays. Maybe I'll put up a poll and see if there's a weekday folks are interested in?
I just found this thread but, man, the books on the list are definitely on the hard side. Eco, Wolfe, Pychon and Joyce? It took me weeks and weeks to get through these authors. I guess it's a good thing everyone started with Dubliners, haha. I'd imagine everyone would have to pick up the Ulysses reader when you they move over to that.
But it is a really good list. Oscar Wao is my favorite book of the decade so far.
Yeah, I apologize to everyone for sort of falling out out of nowhere, I've a track record when it comes to making commitments and then having life rear up and reprimand me for doing something so foolish. But, if anyone is still interested, I'll do a halfway catch up early next week, or through "A Little Cloud". I'll try and be in the #TLBC IRC channel as much as possible, so drop by or post questions if you have any.
I'm just about done with everything but the last story, which is significantly longer. Is it much different from the feel of the others? I found the last few to be a bit dark (especially the political discussion one) but still quite enjoyable. Flying tomorrow, so I should probably finish (finally)!