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[H]ZvP Python, Neo-Sauron

Forum index > Strategy
  Mobius   Canada. October 23 2009 01:15. Posts 581Profile 
This is a pub east play/obs game (dont mind talk at start)

And I looked at the guides for ZvP and none of them really had this (if I missed please link)

I don't even know what build he did.. It was that fe->sair->4gate build
But he didn't do the speedlot +1 off of 4gate, instead he did range +1 goons/slowzealots off of 2gas, so he had a lot of gas until temp archive.

I made a couple mistakes I know
-Got range upgraded hydralisks a little late, also resulting in lurkers late
-And I could have went and won, but I saw high templars without storm upgraded, and didn't want to lose hydras
-Lost my 4th expo (6th hatch) to darktemplar before drone saturation. I sent 3 hydras (range/speed/+1upgraded) and an overlord, but dt killed the 3 musketeers.. dts are so imba -_-

I wouldn't really count the 2nd one as a mistake though because i didn't know if storm just finished researching or anything, and I thought I was ahead and didn't want to lose my lead.

In midgame I didn't get many lurkers because he stopped producing hightemplars for some reason. Perhaps I should have got more speedlings to flank goons? Or perhaps more sunkens? I don't know... I also didnt get hive, because I made a queens nest, but then I noticed he dropped a probe at 1 and wanted to drop a couple hydras, but when drop was half done I was like "Ill just get 2 mutas to stop it" and never got hive ): Usually I get drop tech right after hive finishes.

If you catch anymore mistakes please say, or have any techniques i wasnt doing. Constructive criticism/feedback only pleeease.

Replay
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=22853

  ninazerg   United States. October 23 2009 03:15. Posts 22Profile Blog 
Le gg.

Having your fourth gas delayed that much really hurts a lot, because it allows you to start getting ultralisks, which would have easily won you that game since he expanded so so late.

As far as the pesky dt goes, why did you only send like three hydras to go kill it when you had like 8 or so at your third base? You have to bring the hammer down on them; bring the hurt; crush their very souls.

Also, you probably realize you got overlord capped a few times, and if that happens, you could easily just use the minerals to take the top left corner, or throw down a queen's nest, etc. Getting hive tech is super important, because when he makes that many dragoons, adding cracklings and defilers to your army would crush him, especially if he's just macroing out of two bases and is behind in upgrades.

But yeah, don't give them free bases, and just as advice in general, I would say keep the bottom of the map scouted in case he makes a secret base down there.
What are those blue crystals and how do I get more dudes?

  Mobius   Canada. October 27 2009 02:44. Posts 581Profile 

On October 23 2009 03:15 ninazerg wrote:
Le gg.

Having your fourth gas delayed that much really hurts a lot, because it allows you to start getting ultralisks, which would have easily won you that game since he expanded so so late.

As far as the pesky dt goes, why did you only send like three hydras to go kill it when you had like 8 or so at your third base? You have to bring the hammer down on them; bring the hurt; crush their very souls.

Also, you probably realize you got overlord capped a few times, and if that happens, you could easily just use the minerals to take the top left corner, or throw down a queen's nest, etc. Getting hive tech is super important, because when he makes that many dragoons, adding cracklings and defilers to your army would crush him, especially if he's just macroing out of two bases and is behind in upgrades.

But yeah, don't give them free bases, and just as advice in general, I would say keep the bottom of the map scouted in case he makes a secret base down there.

So... I just need to get hive faster?
I also should've added some zerglings into my group? I DID get +1 carapace instead of +1 hydra attack so that would've worked I think.

  ninazerg   United States. October 27 2009 04:43. Posts 22Profile Blog 

So... I just need to get hive faster?
I also should've added some zerglings into my group? I DID get +1 carapace instead of +1 hydra attack so that would've worked I think.



Just in general, you'll want to get your Hive, or start thinking about Hive when you get that third gas, unless of course, you want to do drops first or something.

Here's my thinking behind the usage of zerglings/hive tech/whatever (Because I didn't just think "Oh man, zerglings would be good there." without having a reason.)

Your build (Spire into 5 hatch hydra) is great for Python, because it puts a ton of pressure on the Protoss player, which gives you a good deal of map control early on. When you press on the front of the Protoss base, it stops them from getting their third gas, which they crave. For example, if I were Protoss, I'd think about going for a small attack early to put pressure on the zerg, then grabbing my third gas simultaneously.

When you go 5-hatchery hydras and put that pressure on them, it takes away that opportunity for them to grab a quick third gas, which puts them behind in the game, because of the wide open middle of Python, they're trying to mass up a huge army and take control of the middle.

Now, because the Protoss is behind, it forces them to do a drop, or roll over and die. Typically, they'll do like high/dark templar drops to harass your drones, or take out expansions that are still morphing. They have to do this, because playing against a 4-gas zerg with only two gas sucks.

If you fight off that drop (or other harasses, like speed zealot drops) with scourges/hydras/mutas or whatever you choose, then his only option is to mass up a ton of dragoons and templars to break your lurker line outside his base. Knowing this in advance, you can get defilers and zerglings to hold off dragoons, and because you have that lucrative fourth gas, you can start mixing ultras in as you stop him from pushing out, then just walk in whenever you feel like it and crush him.

This strategy is great on Python, because it leaves the Protoss with very few options, because if you lurker contain and then constantly re-enforce that contain, there is no back door to escape out of. Therefore, again, he has to make a ton of dragoons and high templars to break out the front of his base, and dark swarm over lurkers with zerglings absolutely crushes this type of play from the Protoss.

The drawback to this type of strategy (On Python or Colosseum type maps... it probably will fail you 90% of the time on Heartbreak Ridge or Longinus) is that if your economy gets delayed significantly, then you won't be able to hold the front of the Protoss base because you won't have enough units. That's exactly what happened in the replay you've supplied; your fourth base was lost and you had to rebuild it, buying the Protoss extra time to break out.

Normally, the way most Protosses delay your economy is to get a +1 weapon then attack your drones at your third base, because it's so far away that it makes it difficult to re-enforce, so what you can do is put down an Evolution Chamber at the same time as your Spire, then if you see the forge spinning with your scouting lings, you just get a +1 Carapiece, then when you get your Hydralisk Den, you put down a second Evolution Chamber and start getting +1 Ranged Attack. If the Protoss tries to rush with Zealots, your scouting lings will see them come out of his base, and you can just run your Hydralisks from the middle to whichever base they're going to and kill them. Select all the drones from that third base (Or second base... whichever he attacks) hotkey them and then run them away when he attacks. Kill the Zealots, then hit your drone hotkey and click the minerals to send them all back.

After killing their attack, just continue with your macroing and pressuring on their front, and you'll basically force them to do a harass or some desperate crazy attack, and you'll almost certainly win the game.


Sorry if this was too long to read... >_<

I just had like 30 minutes of free time, so I decided to write this, so sorry if I rambled.
What are those blue crystals and how do I get more dudes?

  Mobius   Canada. October 27 2009 06:14. Posts 581Profile 

On October 27 2009 04:43 ninazerg wrote:

Show nested quote +



Just in general, you'll want to get your Hive, or start thinking about Hive when you get that third gas, unless of course, you want to do drops first or something.

Here's my thinking behind the usage of zerglings/hive tech/whatever (Because I didn't just think "Oh man, zerglings would be good there." without having a reason.)

Your build (Spire into 5 hatch hydra) is great for Python, because it puts a ton of pressure on the Protoss player, which gives you a good deal of map control early on. When you press on the front of the Protoss base, it stops them from getting their third gas, which they crave. For example, if I were Protoss, I'd think about going for a small attack early to put pressure on the zerg, then grabbing my third gas simultaneously.

When you go 5-hatchery hydras and put that pressure on them, it takes away that opportunity for them to grab a quick third gas, which puts them behind in the game, because of the wide open middle of Python, they're trying to mass up a huge army and take control of the middle.

Now, because the Protoss is behind, it forces them to do a drop, or roll over and die. Typically, they'll do like high/dark templar drops to harass your drones, or take out expansions that are still morphing. They have to do this, because playing against a 4-gas zerg with only two gas sucks.

If you fight off that drop (or other harasses, like speed zealot drops) with scourges/hydras/mutas or whatever you choose, then his only option is to mass up a ton of dragoons and templars to break your lurker line outside his base. Knowing this in advance, you can get defilers and zerglings to hold off dragoons, and because you have that lucrative fourth gas, you can start mixing ultras in as you stop him from pushing out, then just walk in whenever you feel like it and crush him.

This strategy is great on Python, because it leaves the Protoss with very few options, because if you lurker contain and then constantly re-enforce that contain, there is no back door to escape out of. Therefore, again, he has to make a ton of dragoons and high templars to break out the front of his base, and dark swarm over lurkers with zerglings absolutely crushes this type of play from the Protoss.

The drawback to this type of strategy (On Python or Colosseum type maps... it probably will fail you 90% of the time on Heartbreak Ridge or Longinus) is that if your economy gets delayed significantly, then you won't be able to hold the front of the Protoss base because you won't have enough units. That's exactly what happened in the replay you've supplied; your fourth base was lost and you had to rebuild it, buying the Protoss extra time to break out.

Normally, the way most Protosses delay your economy is to get a +1 weapon then attack your drones at your third base, because it's so far away that it makes it difficult to re-enforce, so what you can do is put down an Evolution Chamber at the same time as your Spire, then if you see the forge spinning with your scouting lings, you just get a +1 Carapiece, then when you get your Hydralisk Den, you put down a second Evolution Chamber and start getting +1 Ranged Attack. If the Protoss tries to rush with Zealots, your scouting lings will see them come out of his base, and you can just run your Hydralisks from the middle to whichever base they're going to and kill them. Select all the drones from that third base (Or second base... whichever he attacks) hotkey them and then run them away when he attacks. Kill the Zealots, then hit your drone hotkey and click the minerals to send them all back.

After killing their attack, just continue with your macroing and pressuring on their front, and you'll basically force them to do a harass or some desperate crazy attack, and you'll almost certainly win the game.


Sorry if this was too long to read... >_<

I just had like 30 minutes of free time, so I decided to write this, so sorry if I rambled.

wow thanks, it was a long read it was great lol. thanks a lot ^^

  Excelsior   United States. October 27 2009 08:04. Posts 10Profile 
I am not a Zerg player, so I can't say that much about macro stuff - but what I took note of:

1. Yes, should have pushed in on that first attack, would have won

2. DT thing also contributed

3. All of your pushes after the first one, especially toward the end, ended up being fairly expensive and net losses - particularly that last push before he counterattacked seemed unnecessary - you had a huge economic advantage, so it could have made more sense to simply prevent him from expanding while building up a superior force, rather than keep throwing units into his defense. (can at least contain and let the battle take place there instead of giving him the advantage of being able to utilise his cannons and cliff position in the army clashes that take place throughout the game - there is no need to take him out that quickly when you have the macro advantage)

Anyhow, just my 2c as a Protoss player, hope it helps

edit: small world, I thought I recognised your username, and sure enough, we've PvZed before on East
Last edit: 2009-10-27 08:10:55

  Mobius   Canada. October 27 2009 10:48. Posts 581Profile 

On October 27 2009 08:04 Excelsior wrote:
I am not a Zerg player, so I can't say that much about macro stuff - but what I took note of:

1. Yes, should have pushed in on that first attack, would have won

2. DT thing also contributed

3. All of your pushes after the first one, especially toward the end, ended up being fairly expensive and net losses - particularly that last push before he counterattacked seemed unnecessary - you had a huge economic advantage, so it could have made more sense to simply prevent him from expanding while building up a superior force, rather than keep throwing units into his defense. (can at least contain and let the battle take place there instead of giving him the advantage of being able to utilise his cannons and cliff position in the army clashes that take place throughout the game - there is no need to take him out that quickly when you have the macro advantage)

Anyhow, just my 2c as a Protoss player, hope it helps

edit: small world, I thought I recognised your username, and sure enough, we've PvZed before on East

haha, what ID were you on?

  Excelsior   United States. October 27 2009 10:58. Posts 10Profile 
"Excelsior", the replay says we played earlier this month, haha

  rA.BreeZe   Canada. November 05 2009 08:58. Posts 17Profile Blog 
Aha! Mibu and UtadaHikaru, I found you both!

 
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