 n00bonicPlague United States. October 28 2009 09:36. Posts 144 | Profile |
![[image loading]](/userpoll/draw.php?poll_id=6929&ordered=1)
Poll: Should Warp Gates have a rally point?
(Vote): Hell yes.
(Vote): Yes.
(Vote): Unsure.
(Vote): No.
(Vote): Hell no.
It makes sense merely because it is a production building and all other production buildings in the game have rally points; however, it works unlike any production building yet created, and so there may be some details that need to be looked at first. One example would be the case of how units should appear at a rally point — especially if multiple Warp Gates point to the exact same spot — because they obviously can't appear in the exact same pixel (due to game physics). Another problem could be the situation in which pylon power is lost at the original rally point. Should units still be created but at their respective warp gate, or should an error message appear and say that the units could not be spawned due to lack of pylon power?
Overall, it makes perfect logical sense.
It just needs fixes to some possible issues.Last edit: 2009-10-28 09:37:14 |
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 Krikkitone United States. October 28 2009 09:46. Posts 304 | Profile |
No... if you were going to use Rally points, you should just stick with Gateways. You only convert them to Warp Gates if you want them to be available on a chosen spot.
Even if that is a proxy pylon, the flexibility necessitates against a rally point. |
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| Lysis United States. October 28 2009 09:58. Posts 3 | Profile |
| I think rally points on a Warp Gate is really unnecessary. Because when a unit is created by a Warp Gate, it appears in the designated area, so why would you need a rally point when you already choose the point of creation? |
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| n00bonicPlague United States. October 28 2009 10:26. Posts 144 | Profile |
On October 28 2009 09:58 Lysis wrote:
I think rally points on a Warp Gate is really unnecessary. Because when a unit is created by a Warp Gate, it appears in the designated area, so why would you need a rally point when you already choose the point of creation?
So you no longer have to select the point of creation for every single unit produced? It's the same reason all production buildings have rally point. It's so you don't have to command every single new unit to go where you want them to go. They automatically go there. If you had a proxy pylon or expansion that you constantly sent new units to, wouldn't it make sense to assign a rally point? |
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 mOnion United States. October 28 2009 10:30. Posts 540 | Profile Blog |
you CLEARLY don't get how warp gates work. how easy do you want the macro to be dude?
the warp in function right now is fantastic, and imo, (after playing) requires as much macro as going back to your base to click probes to minerals in SC1 (since there's no queue, there's also no audio reminder to come back. there's one on the HUD, but that was pretty subtle) |
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| n00bonicPlague United States. October 28 2009 10:45. Posts 144 | Profile |
On October 28 2009 10:30 mOnion wrote:
you CLEARLY don't get how warp gates work.
What? You select your warp gates. You select the unit to be produced. You select where you want it to go. Repeat previous two steps for every remaining warp gate. What am I missing?
On October 28 2009 10:30 mOnion wrote:
how easy do you want the macro to be dude?
I don't particularly care how hard macro is. If the developers want to create a macro mechanic that requires 100 clicks to achieve, that's fine. I just want to make sure that each and every one of those clicks means something and isn't there just for the lulz or whatever.
On October 28 2009 10:30 mOnion wrote:
the warp in function right now is fantastic, and imo, (after playing) requires as much macro as going back to your base to click probes to minerals in SC1 (since there's no queue, there's also no audio reminder to come back. there's one on the HUD, but that was pretty subtle)
Yeah, that's what troubles me. They remove that aspect of the game only to re-include it in some other form. |
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 Kennigit Canada. October 28 2009 10:57. Posts 11714 | Profile Blog |
| n00bonicPlague why do you make threads here and then write "im asking for it..." on sclegacy? |
| | It\'s like LastShadow driving to the middle of nowhere because his GPS map got edited. |
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 Plexa New Zealand. October 28 2009 11:02. Posts 16234 | Profile Blog |
The warp-in mechanic is one of the best mechanics in the whole game
Why do you want to ruin that? |
| | ~ Spirit will set you free ~ |
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 Tsagacity United States. October 28 2009 11:08. Posts 1238 | Profile |
On October 28 2009 10:57 Kennigit wrote:
n00bonicPlague why do you make threads here and then write "im asking for it..." on sclegacy?
Hating on TL is the popular thing to do there.
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| | "Everyone worse than me at video games is a noob. Everyone better than me doesn't have a life." |
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| n00bonicPlague United States. October 28 2009 11:31. Posts 144 | Profile |
On October 28 2009 10:57 Kennigit wrote:
n00bonicPlague why do you make threads here and then write "im asking for it..." on sclegacy?
It's just a joking way to let them know that I posted it here so that they can see what you guys have to say about it. The choice of words is based on me guessing what you guys are gonna think about it, and judging by the results I guessed right. I've done it to them and to other SC forums before. Don't be mistaken — I respect TL's opinions and experience. I take this game seriously.
No trolling here.
On October 28 2009 11:02 Plexa wrote:
The warp-in mechanic is one of the best mechanics in the whole game
Why do you want to ruin that?
Ruin it? As far as I can tell, rally would improve it. It's not like you wouldn't be able to choose where to spawn every specific unit. I definitely want to keep that part in. But let's say I just want to do some quick reinforcement to a permanently powered area. I could just set the rally point to an expo or to a proxy for future use. Then, once I am in an advancing battle, I can shut off the rally points using a toggle and then warp units to specific areas. Once out of battle, turn 'em back on.Last edit: 2009-10-28 11:40:22 |
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 scintilliaSD Hong Kong. October 28 2009 11:49. Posts 751 | Profile Blog |
So you're pretty much saying "Look, this will simplify the game, but at that cost, look at all these things that can go wrong, too! So let's have them code in this new feature and some debug trapping code for all these potential things that can go wrong."
Am I wrong? |
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| Plexa New Zealand. October 28 2009 12:00. Posts 16234 | Profile Blog |
On October 28 2009 11:31 n00bonicPlague wrote:
Show nested quote +On October 28 2009 11:02 Plexa wrote:
The warp-in mechanic is one of the best mechanics in the whole game
Why do you want to ruin that?
Ruin it? As far as I can tell, rally would improve it. It's not like you wouldn't be able to choose where to spawn every specific unit. I definitely want to keep that part in. But let's say I just want to do some quick reinforcement to a permanently powered area. I could just set the rally point to an expo or to a proxy for future use. Then, once I am in an advancing battle, I can shut off the rally points using a toggle and then warp units to specific areas. Once out of battle, turn 'em back on.
You have quite clearly never used the warp in mechanic.
Let me clarify. This completely destroys the warp in mechanic. At the moment it works like this - you select all your warpgates and then z click z click z click etc to warp in a bunch of zealots. Under your proposed system all I would have to do is go click to set the rally then zzzzz like normal MBS. The thing is, Warp in cool down is less than the build time for a unit and you can warp in units pretty much anywhere. These huge advantages need to be counter balanced by having the more intensive z click z click rather than just the normal mbs method imo.Last edit: 2009-10-28 12:04:49 |
| | ~ Spirit will set you free ~ |
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 YoureFired October 28 2009 12:01. Posts 13 | Profile |
| I don't like this idea mainly because then there is NO reason to have normal gateways; unlike the reactor vs tech lab decision, giving warp gates rally points would just make them improved gateways. |
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 unsmart United States. October 28 2009 12:10. Posts 18 | Profile |
| You already receive two benefits from using the warpgate, you get to have unites made anywhere where there is pylon power and the units are made faster (that is warp in time + cooldown = faster than normal build time). It doesn't need a rally point system. |
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 Archerofaiur October 28 2009 12:14. Posts 1119 | Profile |
Im always fascinated by how much the dialogue revolves around decision making with the SCL forumers but how little that is mentioned here on Teamliquid. Thats the most remarkable thing the different approaches.
Last edit: 2009-10-28 12:15:13 |
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| Plexa New Zealand. October 28 2009 12:21. Posts 16234 | Profile Blog |
On October 28 2009 12:14 Archerofaiur wrote:
Im always fascinated by how much the dialogue revolves around decision making with the SCL forumers but how little that is mentioned here on Teamliquid. Thats the most remarkable thing the different approaches.
Decision making will be optimized after 3-4 years. We'll all know which decisions are the best to make hence in the long run "decision making" becomes irrelevant since it's all been worked out for you.
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| | ~ Spirit will set you free ~ |
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| Ryuu314 United States. October 28 2009 14:12. Posts 87 | Profile |
| If you make a warp gate have a rally point you're taking away the only drawback of having a warp gate as opposed to a gateway. by forcing the player to click where they want to warp the unit, it's costing slightly more apm than a traditional warpgate. i really don't see a problem with the current mechanics, especially since now you can select multiple buildings at a time and give out commands that way. Last edit: 2009-10-28 14:13:03 |
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| phyvo United States. October 28 2009 14:20. Posts 46 | Profile |
If decision making didn't matter then an SC1 match with just Terran SCVs that build each other would be just as interesting as the whole game.
Granted, many people want to talk about "decision making" because they don't want to lose the game simply because someone else has faster hands. On the other hand though, decision making will be a factor in how interesting the game will be later whether the game is mapped out or not.
You already get lack of decision making annoyance with SC1, e.g. in ZvZ simply because people get tired of zerglings and mutas and short games with similar builds. People like matchups like TvZ and PvZ because there are more options, even though most don't go for sair/reaver nowadays.
So, in my opinion, the more good diversity the better the game is for it. It's just as much of a skill to memorize/flawlessly execute a larger map, as you put it, as it is to have high APM.
That said, adding a rally point to the warp gate will by no means do anything but make the player click less unless he wants to click in twenty different places. |
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| Krikkitone United States. October 28 2009 15:37. Posts 304 | Profile |
The "warp gate" "gateway" trade off will not let you build units faster overall
3 Warpgates= same mineral cost as 4 Gateways (and some gas cost as well I believe its 50m,50g and 150 for a Gateway)
4 gateways will probably produce 12 Zealots faster than 3 Warpgates
The whole advantage is production in different areas, By building Warpgates you are getting Flexibility... Rally Points would unnecesarily complicate the Warp gate UI and give you something you just Paid to not need |
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| JohannesH October 28 2009 17:19. Posts 110 | Profile |
On October 28 2009 12:00 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +On October 28 2009 11:31 n00bonicPlague wrote:
On October 28 2009 11:02 Plexa wrote:
The warp-in mechanic is one of the best mechanics in the whole game
Why do you want to ruin that?
Ruin it? As far as I can tell, rally would improve it. It's not like you wouldn't be able to choose where to spawn every specific unit. I definitely want to keep that part in. But let's say I just want to do some quick reinforcement to a permanently powered area. I could just set the rally point to an expo or to a proxy for future use. Then, once I am in an advancing battle, I can shut off the rally points using a toggle and then warp units to specific areas. Once out of battle, turn 'em back on.
You have quite clearly never used the warp in mechanic. Let me clarify. This completely destroys the warp in mechanic. At the moment it works like this - you select all your warpgates and then z click z click z click etc to warp in a bunch of zealots. Under your proposed system all I would have to do is go click to set the rally then zzzzz like normal MBS. The thing is, Warp in cool down is less than the build time for a unit and you can warp in units pretty much anywhere. These huge advantages need to be counter balanced by having the more intensive z click z click rather than just the normal mbs method imo.
Cant really say that theres a single way that it NEEDS to be balanced in. It could be balanced with warp in times or upgrade costs just as fine, its just a matter of taste.
That said I think Id prefer it the way it is, just because its more precise control. You can always choose the formation your units warp in at, instead of them just getting into a tight clump at the rallypoint or changing the rally point between each unit. Usually Im for eliminating clicks that dont involve any decision making, but as far as I can see (and that Ive understood the mechanic correctly) this isnt such a case. |
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