 Aesop Hungary. November 03 2009 18:22. Posts 5987 | Profile |
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/SilverskY/HopeforRevolution.jpg)
Hopin' for a Revolution
The Making of Modern PvZ
Question thread
The topic of the next Liquipedia Q&A will be the implications of the 3 Base Spire into 5 hatch Hydra Build Order. We will be analysing why Protoss have such a hard time and what solutions can be imagined.
Time
Monday, 9th of November, 3.00 KST
Sunday, 8th of November, 19.00 CET
Sunday, 8th of November, 10.00 PST
Experts
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Zicon_small.png) ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Picon_small.png) ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tsld/images/flags/no.png) Oystein, ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tsld/images/flags/us.png) Liquid`NonY, Day[9], ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tsld/images/flags/de.png) iNfeRnaL
Example Games
As customary, we will have a set of games to watch beforehand and which we'll analyse live on stage. These are:
July vs. BeSt, Game 3 on Andromeda
Not the first usage ever, but the moment when the build mentioned inevitably surfaced in all its strength.
+ Show Spoiler [The VOD] +
Bisu vs. Shine, Game 3 on Heartbreak Ridge
Paradigmatic display of Protoss not doing many mistakes, but succumbing to the Templar sniping.
+ Show Spoiler [The VOD] +
BackHo vs. Calm, Game 1 on Eye of the Storm
Who would have thought some hope would come from Backho? But he takes a game off Calm with great DT usage.
+ Show Spoiler [The VOD] +
You may ask questions about the build, about the games, and also direct questions to specific experts.
We will try to group your questions according to the tedencies implied in them and try to cover all the vital areas. Please do not despair if we do not pick your question in special.
Shoot!Last edit: 2009-11-04 21:30:12 |
| | Non veritas sed auctoritas facit legem. | Liquipedia: Questions? Suggestions? Woes? Drop me a PM and I'll try to assist. |
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 50bani Romania. November 03 2009 18:46. Posts 144 | Profile Blog |
What is the fundamental weakness of Protoss, in the expert's opinions?
When I think about the protoss matchups, it seems to me that this is the race who's main units have the least firepower. Also think about PvT, they kill us with our own splash a lot of the time. In PvZ they have timings when they are strong, like when they have attack upgrades ahead of carpace, or before zerg has Lurkers, but honestly Zerg seems to me like the more 1a2a3a oriented race here, and Protoss need to bring the goods, so to speak. |
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 Suc Australia. November 03 2009 19:01. Posts 261 | Profile |
| Question: How effective do you think dark archons would be in preventing templar sniping with maelstrom and in the pvz matchup in general? Last edit: 2009-11-03 20:06:25 |
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 xtinct Norway. November 03 2009 19:26. Posts 3 | Profile |
I feel the discussion of inbalance that's been going on lately is warranted and interesting.
When i play against protoss i usually get problems if the protoss is aggressive and throws off my timing.
Maybe this is the way protoss should play against zerg now? more aggressive play..Last edit: 2009-11-03 20:58:57 |
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 ViruX New Zealand. November 03 2009 19:44. Posts 214 | Profile Blog |
| How should protoss adapt to the zerg starting build besides how many cannons and when to get nexus |
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 justiceknight Singapore. November 03 2009 21:00. Posts 571 | Profile Blog |
which map is the best to do 3 hatch spire to 5 hatch?
is +1 zlot with mass sair the counter to this build?? |
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| ghrur United States. November 03 2009 21:40. Posts 174 | Profile |
Is this honestly an imba matchup or do you believe it's simply the maps at the moment?
Would a Min Only third solve this problem if it's a map balance issue? |
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| slimshady Bulgaria. November 03 2009 22:08. Posts 141 | Profile |
What do you think about the +1 zealot push after stargate? This is what Bisu did vs JaeDong and Stork vs SEn @ IEF. Is it really good vs 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydralisks?
Also, how should protosses counter muta sniping? Should they get a few sairs or just a dark archon with maelstrom?
I'll be glad if you pick my questions.
Thanks in advance.Last edit: 2009-11-03 22:13:06 |
| | Will the real Slim Shady please stand up? |
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| AMaidensWrath Belgium. November 03 2009 23:51. Posts 8 | Profile |
Hello there!
Here's my question:
Could we see more 1-base-builds in the future? Early aggression would prevent the Zerg from massing up drones or units. |
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| Sentient66 United States. November 04 2009 00:13. Posts 191 | Profile |
| Question: What is the best response for zerg to early protoss aggression? This build's focus is a strong early economy, and it's difficult to defend against 3 zealots without placing down too many sunkens or wasting larvae on too many zerglings. |
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| AceVentura Sweden. November 04 2009 00:18. Posts 34 | Profile |
Is there any build that allows the protoss to simply take a reasonably quick third and focus on the macro game? Right now it seems like all the protoss counters rely on timing attacks to pressure the zerg, and if it doesn't do damage it's catch up from there.
Also what do you think of the +1 speedzealot into dual stargates from Jangbi vs Calm in the proleague playoffs? When would it be effective and what are the zerg counters?
Also these:
On November 03 2009 22:08 slimshady wrote:
What do you think about the +1 zealot push after stargate? This is what Bisu did vs JaeDong and Stork vs SEn @ IEF. Is it really good vs 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydralisks?
Also, how should protosses counter muta sniping? Should they get a few sairs or just a dark archon with maelstrom?
I'll be glad if you pick my questions.
Thanks in advance.
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| | Do you love oov? Yes, Iloveoov! |
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| Ao_Jun November 04 2009 00:38. Posts 205 | Profile Blog |
Hi there, thanks for doing this. Hope you get some good questions.
My question´.
Many people are talking about how early agression is a good counter to this super greedy new zerg style. Do you think a transition back to the oldschool 2gate zeals or 1gate tech opening is comming( on ramp maps)? Or is it just too weak?
Also: as a protoss i find myself having problems with zergs that camp 3 gas and get hive. THen when i take my 3rd they get a 4th and maybe a 5th. If i move out they counter my 3rd or drop my main with cracklings.
At some point they will have 5k gas from being able to hold me back with lings only and make 30 ultras and run me over.
What would be an appropriate counter to this? mass cannon/reav at my expo?
And a last one (Sorry :o):
What do you guys think the up and downside is to early and massive harass compared to early agression (From toss) in an FE build.
Last edit: 2009-11-05 20:09:50 |
| | you are one of the least benigtedly unintelligent organic life forms it has been my profound lack of pleasure not to be able to avoid meeting. |
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| JFKWT Singapore. November 04 2009 03:59. Posts 702 | Profile Blog |
Sweet banner =D
and it would be nice to include by.Hero vs Bisu on Tau Cross where hero goes almost pure hydralurk and macros like crazy on lair tech. |
| | The calm before the storm |
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 Oystein Norway. November 04 2009 05:13. Posts 1006 | Profile Blog |
On November 04 2009 03:59 JFKWT wrote:
Sweet banner =D
and it would be nice to include by.Hero vs Bisu on Tau Cross where hero goes almost pure hydralurk and macros like crazy on lair tech.
Don`t he open like 4hatch before gas or something that game, at least using a different build than the 3hatch->5hatch but ending up with the same kind of infrastructure in the end? Or am I mistaken? |
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| Duckvillelol Australia. November 04 2009 05:14. Posts 92 | Profile |
| Is it possible some sort of low-tech early attack can keep the zerg busy? I'm talking, 1 base, 2 or even 3 gate mass zealot push? It can help to keep the zerg natural under threat, and leave some free time to expand. |
| | *Reaver drop with huge amounts of probes destroyed* - Player 2: "WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL MY PEOPLES!?" rofl! |
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| Virtuoso United States. November 04 2009 05:44. Posts 109 | Profile |
Aw man no tvp =-'(
How do you think the meta game will shift if say, ANOTHER zerg rose to dominance. Do the protoss have to make a statement now about where they are in the pvz relationship. Before everyone and Hyuk's grandma are rolling modern protoss |
| | fan of the top 3 terrans Flash Fantasy leta GOGO TERRANS |
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| Espers November 04 2009 05:51. Posts 83 | Profile Blog |
Are there any situations/maps where a LurkerLing army would be better than a mass Hydra army when opening 3 hatch spire -> 5 hatch? Is there a reason why LurkerLing isn't used much because 3 hatch spire basically nullifies harrassment a lot which seems to be its weakness..
And on the flip side, what things should Protoss keep in mind when Zerg eventually starts playing LurkerLingDefiler? Especially on HBR when the ridges are held so easily. |
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 Trozz Canada. November 04 2009 08:30. Posts 336 | Profile Blog |
Q1:
If Zerg's mutas die,
And Protoss has no corsairs,
And Zerg went Hydra,
Would it be worth it
For Zerg to rebuild his air?
How does Zerg decide?
Q2:
Protoss's third gas.
Zergs will want to delay this.
Maybe with 12 lings.
If Zerg goes Hydra,
And gets no melee upgrades,
Can lings stall the third?
Because in this game,
Luxury does not get lings.
He keeps with hydra.
Is this a mistake?
Are lings not cost effective?
(Without the upgrades.) |
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 da_head Canada. November 04 2009 09:51. Posts 702 | Profile | |
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 7mk Germany. November 04 2009 10:01. Posts 1570 | Profile Blog |
wow sweet, some more talk about my favourite matchup ever
my question is why protoss dont go for mass goon strategies more often, I have by far the most problems vs mass goons, and even lots of lings dont seem to do much when the goon army has reached a certain size and P's storms are decent.
Another question: when should Z go for armor first instead of range upgrade, esp. when z goes for 3 hatch scourge -> lurkersLast edit: 2009-11-04 10:02:24 |
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