In the UK the Home Office which deals with policing, security, laws etc has a load of scientific advisory panels which give them expert opinions on their policies. The UK Government has a retarded policy on cannabis (last year it was upgraded to a class B drug (longer prison sentences etc)) and they maintain it's evil.
Unfortunately for them their leading scientific advisor (Prof Nutt) publicly called them out on it last week, stating that there was no scientific evidence backing up the Home Secretary's views on cannabis and that if you were to rank drugs based on harm it would be far below alcohol and nicotene.
Mr Johnson (Home Secretary) fired him for getting involved in the political side of it to which Prof Nutt retorted that the Home Secretary had crossed the same line by getting involved in the scientific side and deliberately misleading the public against scientific advice over the risks involved in cannabis.
The situation has degenerated into a war between a politician whose views on cannabis are not backed up by science and the scientific community who are pissed off. Several more Government scientific advisors have resigned in protest and the scientific view of the Government advisors remains that the Government is wrong. Scientists are accusing the Government of ignoring their advice and politicising their work, using science to rubber stamp political decisions with no care for the facts.
But Labour peer Lord Robert Winston told BBC Radio 4's The World This Weekend he was "very surprised and disappointed" by Mr Johnson's actions.
He warned that the government would be ignored if it gave advice to the public that did not take account of scientists' opinions and said Prof Nutt had made a "very reasonable" point about the relative dangers of illegal and legal drugs.
Lord Winston, professor of science and society at Imperial College London, said: "I think that if governments appoint expert advice they shouldn't dismiss it so lightly. I think it shows a rather poor understanding of the value of science."
(Lord Winston is one of the most prominent and respect scientists in the country. In the UK the upper house of our legislative is appointed and cannot be unappointed. Lord Winston is a Labour peer (Lord) so technically a member of the same government as Mr Johnson but was appointed to the House of Lords because of respect for his knowledge).
I'm not sure if something like this has happened before but we are seeing a major scientific rebellion by the Governments own advisors over what is fundamentally a wrong drugs policy. Thus I thought it was worthy of posting, even if it is just as news. Discuss?
Misrah: by the way Einstein- you can't use sarcasm online." Aegraen: "Don't worry, if things don't change, and change in a respectable manner sometime soon, you will see the second American Revolution, because tyranny in any form, must be fought against."
Eben   United States. November 04 2009 02:55. Posts 211
politics is rarely rational. in fact, many political decisions seem very counterintuitive, although I'm sure they have good reasons for what they do.
Today I found out her real name. No, I didn't ask her myself; when the class was doing a group assignment I walked to her desk and found her last name on a paper.
Amber[LighT]   United States. November 04 2009 03:00. Posts 2333
The sad thing is there is no scientific basis for cannibus legislation even in the United States. I'm surprised they moved it to a class B narcotic since in the states a lot of laws have been relaxed.
Excluding Federal Legislation which has a strong stance against cannibus usage altogether.
Last edit: 2009-11-04 03:04:24
True Mafioso ;)
Hawk   United States. November 04 2009 03:02. Posts 10241
I'm glad someone is standing up to the bullshit that comes from the govt., but the poor dude probably just lost an assload of funding. Good for him though in leading the fight
Last Romantic wrote: Your crusade against internet ignorance in that thread is admirable, but I fear you've no chance. Against travis' stupidity God himself would strive in vain.
Lucktar   United States. November 04 2009 03:09. Posts 291
Government has invested so much political capital in portraying marijuana as evil and deviant, they can't possibly back down from that position now. In the US, it was an effort to demonize first the Mexicans, who were the primary users of the drugs in the 1920's and 30's, and later the hippies, who were viewed as a dangerous anti-establishment political movement. You got shit like 'Reefer Madness,' bullshit PSA's about marijuana as a supposed 'gateway drug,' and loads of other nonsense. Essentially, the US (and similarly the UK, apparently) has painted itself into a corner, and now they can't back down on cannabis being dangerous, no matter what the science on the matter is.
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zizou21   United States. November 04 2009 03:17. Posts 2729
With more and more pressure from the marijuana legalization movements, it's just a matter of time before the US starts changing the laws. California will be first.
Diamondback2   United States. November 04 2009 03:21. Posts 160
Yea marijuana laws in the US are just plain stupid and were created out of racism. Not sure about the UK's.
Any human that says booze or tobacco is less harmful than weed is just misinformed and has bought in to the propaganda.
Sucks for the UK tho, thier laws seem to be getting worse and in the US we are making strides (well maybe more of baby steps) towards ending this pointless prohibition. Hell in MI where I live we have medical laws now!
fast ball player   November 04 2009 03:24. Posts 204
that would never happen here in the USA. honest courageous scientists would never be appointed to high positions like that. all the prominent scientists here are bought off by corporations and lobbying groups to say whatever they want them to say.
here cannabis is a schedule 1 drug which would equal class A, in the category of highest danger and no medical use. which everyone knows is so obviously counter to the science facts. but if you read the history of how pot became illegal you have scientists paid off by the textile and alcohol/tobacco industries, that were in competition with the incredibly useful cannabis plant, that testified in court it made you hallucinate and become schizophrenic. just like they'd pay doctors to say smoking is good for you.
the people in charge will use science to make better weapons and more sophisticated marketing and more consumer electronics to sell, but they'll never listen to science to make a reasonable policy that would help the people.
in the usa the democratic party did some online thing where voters could say which issues were most important to them. the NUMBER ONE issue was legalization of cannabis, and obama mocked the suggestion that the 2$ billion a year marijuana black market industry could help the economy if it was made into a legitimate industry and taxed.
Live free or die
Rotodyne   United States. November 04 2009 03:25. Posts 943
It's disgusting that there are politicians in office that know absolutely nothing on the subject, and still believe in reefer madness shit. All the other politicians that know the policies are garbage can't do anything because they will endanger their chance at re-election (no balls).
Last edit: 2009-11-04 03:27:23
Liquid`Drone   Norway. November 04 2009 03:26. Posts 16907
excellent. there are many things wrong with western society but weed being illegal and alcohol being legal is probably one of the things that make least sense out of anything.
LOLLLL I LAUGH'D SO HARD AT UR 60 IQ COMMENT PLEASE KILL URSELF STONE AGE NOOB.
Jyvblamo   Canada. November 04 2009 03:28. Posts 4747
On November 04 2009 03:26 Liquid`Drone wrote: excellent. there are many things wrong with western society but weed being illegal and alcohol being legal is probably one of the things that make least sense out of anything.
In the future people are going to look back and wonder what the fuck we were doing.
KwarK   Great Britain. November 04 2009 03:33. Posts 8520
On November 04 2009 02:55 Eben wrote: Pretty interesting, I wish I knew more about UK politics to comment more on it though.
Keep us posted on what is happening
UK politics and political system. Wall of text pending. + Show Spoiler +
We have a bicamaral legislative. The House of Lords which used to be hereditary but is now mostly appointed. They ratify legislation and can hold up or ask for rewrites for legislation they don't like. Ultimately the House of Commons can force legislation through an unwilling House of Lords but it takes a lot of effort and unity. Peers(Lords/Baronesses etc) are appointed by the Prime Minister but are generally not political appointments. People are appointed to it because of respect for their expertise, knowledge or judgement. For example most ex Prime Ministers are now peers. The House of Lords is a pretty independent body because the Government has no power over them.
The House of Commons is the legislative. It is made up of Members of Parliament (MPs) who are each elected from a local constituency whom they serve. They are generally part of our three main political parties but anyone can (and often does) stand in elections for Parliament. Elections are held on a first past the post basis for constituencys so the winning party only needs a plurality of the vote rather than a majority. In fact, a majority of the vote is pretty much unheard of but the system generally gives the winning party a majority of MPs. The House of Commons holds the power in British politics and can make and unmake laws pretty much at whim with a majority. There is no constitution, a Parliament is not bound by any previous Parliament and cannot bind any future Parliament. Its powers are limitless.
The House of Commons can invite any member of it to form a Government. In practice the leader of the party with the majority of the house becomes PM and forms a Government. Usually he draws the cabinet from his own MPs but they can also come from the House of Lords (Blair appointed one of his old roommates to the house of Lords then brought him into his Government). The Government then drafts legislation to be presented to the House of Commons where it is passed by a simple majority. From there it goes to the House of Lords where it can be amended, rejected or passed. The Government has a lot of power over the MPs because they generally get their job by the virtue of the party they stand for. There have been cases of MPs getting fired for refusing to follow the party line and being re-elected by their constituency but these are extremely rare, generally the Gov can bully MPs.
Until a month ago we had no Supreme Court. Without a constitution there is no real need for it. However there was a group within the House of Lords who were appointed to their peerage by virtue of their excellent legal knowledge, usually ex lawyers or judges. These were referred to as Lawlords and they had a special committee within the House of Lords. However they are now referred as the Supreme Court, no longer get to vote in the House of Lords, and function mainly as an advisory body.
Because our political system is organic and evolved rather than being designed there are no real checks and balances nor separation of power. The Gov must be part of the legislative, the judiciary until recently was part of the upper body of the legislative. It mostly works the way it does because of tradition but theoretically if half the MPs tomorrow decided to invite a random hereditary Lord to form a Gov then Brown (our PM) would be deposed and that Lord would be the new PM. The Gov used to just be unofficial people with sufficient support among MPs to get legislation passed and evolved into a position appointed by a majority of MPs. Twelve years ago the Conservative Gov of John Major actually had less than half the MPs in the House of Commons due to defections and couldn't really pass any legislation. However the opposition party, Labour, had insufficient votes to challenge him and form their own Gov.
The PM has been unofficially devolved many of the powers of the monarch. He can appoint peerages, declare law in his own right, call elections, fire and appoint his cabinet and declare war/peace. He has far more powers than any constitutional system would dare give a President. Indeed during the Second World War Winston Churchill was not elected PM by the people but led a coalition of MPs in revolt against Chamberlain (previous PM) after the fall of France and was invited to form a Gov. Once in power he decided to indefinitely suspend elections to Parliament. Hitler had a harder time becoming a dictator than Churchill did. However once the war had decisively turned in the favour of the allies he called an election which he lost to Clement Attlee. Our system gives a great degree of flexibility because it is based on tradition rather than constitution. Similarly it updates itself to stay relevant to the context in which it exists. For example, a PM declaring war by his own power would be frowned upon now as undemocratic. When Tony Blair invaded Iraq he invited the House of Commons to have a debate on the matter and then they declared war on Iraq. Although the PM still retains the power to declare war it is likely that Blair set a tradition whereby war is declared by the House of Commons in future.
Any questions, feel free to ask.
Misrah: by the way Einstein- you can't use sarcasm online." Aegraen: "Don't worry, if things don't change, and change in a respectable manner sometime soon, you will see the second American Revolution, because tyranny in any form, must be fought against."
Equaoh   Canada. November 04 2009 03:36. Posts 237
The amount of misinformation spread about not only marijuana but all sorts of psychoactive drugs is astounding. Not only do people not seriously consider the issue, they don't realize how mis or uninformed they are - check out all the people laughing in the Obama vid. I honestly think it's going to take until the people who grew up surrounded by drug propaganda to move out of positions of power before these subjects can be looked at in a rational, unbiased way.
jello_biafra   United Kingdom. November 04 2009 03:37. Posts 3426
Eventually a sensible drugs policy will have to be adopted, it's only a matter of time . Cannabis was downgraded to a class C drug back in 2004 which was a step forward but then was reclassified to B again last year against the advice of the government's own commissioned report. It was a terrible decision to fire their advisor and I'm glad others have resigned in protest. Hopefully the Conservatives will do something about this if they get into government next year.
Siberia is evidence that God should have worked on the seventh day, because this job ain't finished. | Member of the "Fuck Yeah, Canata !" committee, to join copy/paste this
Dr.Lettuce   United Kingdom. November 04 2009 03:38. Posts 195
I think you guys are completely missing the social acceptance of alcohol. There is no doubt if it was invented now, it would be illegal.
But it was a huge part of the UK and European countries economies and it helped with country relationships albeit in a very minor form of trade and politics and trying different drinks.
And alcohol really boosted the internal economies of many countries. Look how many pubs there are in the UK. Many of them are quite old. Because alcohol has been socially accepted it's been ingrained in to the culture for along time. And as such it has some leeway compared to other things.
I know you're going go argue that marijuana has been around even longer and is natural. But it wasn't really as extensively used as alcohol. Entire industries are founded on it, such as clubbing and raving etc. And it's generally seen as sociable. Despite the damages it causes. binge drinking, violence. De-criminalizing weed is one thing. But legalizing it is very very tricky as there are literally hundreds of more things that have to be assessed and the implications they might have.
I never really look at the two as a comparison. I see them as 2 separate things. Weed, and alcohol. Why compare the two? They aren't used for the same purpose, they are taken differently and have different social classifications. I honestly see it as comparing MMA and boxing or one of my other bad analogies
Plexa   New Zealand. November 04 2009 03:39. Posts 16234
the phrases "think of the children" and "tough on crime" win more elections than any sort of rational stance on the issue (as well as any other issue involving crime and punishment)