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 HaXXspetten Sweden. November 04 2009 04:33. Posts 164 | Profile Blog |
Most people says burrow sucks. Overall, I agree. All it's useful for is vision across the map without your enemy's knowledge. It CAN be used for ambushes, but you almost always get spotted. Then again, it's really cheap and available from the start, so it's not THAT bad of an investment. So my question is: why does nobody use it? As long as you're thinking outside the box, you can make all kinds of crazy strategies, as demonstrated here by The Emperor himself:
(The quality, and not to mention the music, is horrible, but hopefully you'll be able to see what's going on)
Boxer's Zergling-Burrow Trick |
| | If it is worth doing, it is worth OVER-duing |
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 BlasiuS United States. November 04 2009 04:45. Posts 244 | Profile Blog |
| IMO the main reason it's not used is because of gas cost. In almost any situation, the gas is better spent on lair, zergling speed, or hydra den. |
| | next week on Everybody Loves HypnoToad: |
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 iamho November 04 2009 04:48. Posts 816 | Profile |
| because if you get a late lair you will lose a ton of overlords to wraith/sair builds |
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 Diamondback2 United States. November 04 2009 04:49. Posts 160 | Profile |
I am surprised you don't see it used more in to 15+ minute games where the 100 has and mins is no biggie. Early game the gas cost hurts big time as Zerg is normally very gas starved.
But late game i think it could be very useful for map control like JD did to Bisu in that special GOM matchup. He basically beat Bisu because he had the whole map infested with burrowed Lings. It was very cool and that's the kind of play I am surprised we do not see more. |
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| HwangjaeTerran Korea (South). November 04 2009 04:50. Posts 227 | Profile |
On November 04 2009 04:33 HaXXspetten wrote:Most people says burrow sucks. Overall, I agree. All it's useful for is vision across the map without your enemy's knowledge. It CAN be used for ambushes, but you almost always get spotted. Then again, it's really cheap and available from the start, so it's not THAT bad of an investment. So my question is: why does nobody use it? As long as you're thinking outside the box, you can make all kinds of crazy strategies, as demonstrated here by The Emperor himself: (The quality, and not to mention the music, is horrible, but hopefully you'll be able to see what's going on) Boxer's Zergling-Burrow Trick
Well I heard that was a fake, so not Emperor there.
But burrow is surprisingly unused, it´s not like getting a scout. |
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| HaXXspetten Sweden. November 04 2009 04:50. Posts 164 | Profile Blog |
I agree, but that's a double-edged sword. Imagine a ZvT somewhere Early-Midgame, and the Terran pushes out with his MnM force. He does not yet have any vessels out, and can't scan all the time. In the same way that stop-lurkers are so effective in that situation, burrowing 40 lings when the MnM force moves on top of them, and then suddenly unborrow and get into melee immediately. It would be much more efficient than just rushing towards the marines head on.
Thus, the 100 min + 100 gas would be worth it, especially considered that that is a small amount by then.Last edit: 2009-11-04 04:52:25 |
| | If it is worth doing, it is worth OVER-duing |
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 Misrah United States. November 04 2009 05:00. Posts 1077 | Profile Blog |
If it wasn't for the lag time that un burrowed zerglings have on attacking any unit this could be possible. But yellow tried this against Boxer and well it didn't work to say the least. Any early burrow play in the early game is a complete waste. Burrow is only useful against sair reaver builds, or late game to have them sit expos.
edit: HaXXspetten your dead wrong sorry man, but ambushes might work in sc2  Last edit: 2009-11-04 05:02:03 |
| | Do the Impossible, See the invisible, ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH! |
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| Diamondback2 United States. November 04 2009 05:02. Posts 160 | Profile |
On November 04 2009 04:50 HaXXspetten wrote:
I agree, but that's a double-edged sword. Imagine a ZvT somewhere Early-Midgame, and the Terran pushes out with his MnM force. He does not yet have any vessels out, and can't scan all the time. In the same way that stop-lurkers are so effective in that situation, burrowing 40 lings when the MnM force moves on top of them, and then suddenly unborrow and get into melee immediately. It would be much more efficient than just rushing towards the marines head on.
Thus, the 100 min + 100 gas would be worth it, especially considered that that is a small amount by then.
The problem with that tatic is if the Terran is smart and catches wind of this (either by noticing a missing army or even see one unit burrowing) he can simply just walk a marine over to where the burrow, shoot the marine with a single tank to kill a ton of lings with the splash.
I don't think it's insanely viable for early game but late game I think it is prolly the most underused skill Zerg have (besides ensnare). But I'm a D newb so I could be wrong. |
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 koreasilver Canada. November 04 2009 05:04. Posts 2717 | Profile Blog |
On November 04 2009 04:50 HaXXspetten wrote:
I agree, but that's a double-edged sword. Imagine a ZvT somewhere Early-Midgame, and the Terran pushes out with his MnM force. He does not yet have any vessels out, and can't scan all the time. In the same way that stop-lurkers are so effective in that situation, burrowing 40 lings when the MnM force moves on top of them, and then suddenly unborrow and get into melee immediately. It would be much more efficient than just rushing towards the marines head on.
Thus, the 100 min + 100 gas would be worth it, especially considered that that is a small amount by then.
It doesn't work well. When units unburrow they kinda stand there for a split second before doing anything. Besides, if you built that many lings before vessel timing then it's pretty much all-in. |
| | Canata gives new meaning to the phrase "time attacker." - EvoChamber |
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| HaXXspetten Sweden. November 04 2009 05:06. Posts 164 | Profile Blog |
HaXXspetten your dead wrong sorry man, but ambushes might work in sc2
Yeah, I'm fully aware of how boosted burrow is in SC2, but that was not my problem...
The problem with that tatic is if the Terran is smart and catches wind of this (either by noticing a missing army or even see one unit burrowing) he can simply just walk a marine over to where the burrow, shoot the marine with a single tank to kill a ton of lings with the splash.
Touché... but yes, this is more of a sneaky-build. It would probably only worke once, then he's onto you.Last edit: 2009-11-04 05:08:46 |
| | If it is worth doing, it is worth OVER-duing |
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 jello_biafra United Kingdom. November 04 2009 05:08. Posts 3426 | Profile Blog |
| The best use for burrow is for saving your drones from erasers. |
| | Siberia is evidence that God should have worked on the seventh day, because this job ain't finished. | Member of the "Fuck Yeah, Canata !" committee, to join copy/paste this |
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| kvilx Poland. November 04 2009 05:11. Posts 188 | Profile Blog |
Burrow is good to combat Sair/Reaver. Jaedong proved it couple of times by burrowing groups of Hydras at possible air routes. When Shuttle came in, he popped out and sniped it with it's precious cargo. JD used Burrow for scouting purposes too, but I don't see any more advantages to abuse.
If you are burrowing Lings upon their companions or pop out over other units, they WON'T attack: they'll get that infamous 'collision AI' and try to find themselves some room before attacking anything. Unburrowing over Marines would result with random, chaotic battle and Terran might just retreat all troops to safer spot before he gets slaughtered. |
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| Diamondback2 United States. November 04 2009 05:12. Posts 160 | Profile |
Here's a link to the replay I was talking about: JD vs Bisu Gom.
This is the kind of burrow play I am surprised is not used more often. It completely screwed everything Bisu did cause JD knew about what was coming like a million years b4 it hit. |
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| HaXXspetten Sweden. November 04 2009 05:15. Posts 164 | Profile Blog |
On November 04 2009 05:12 Diamondback2 wrote:
Here's a link to the replay I was talking about: JD vs Bisu Gom.
This is the kind of burrow play I am surprised is not used more often. It completely screwed everything Bisu did cause JD knew about what was coming like a million years b4 it hit.
Oh, yeah, I remember that game. That one kinda' proves my point. THIS is what I find strange that noone ever does. |
| | If it is worth doing, it is worth OVER-duing |
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| koreasilver Canada. November 04 2009 05:21. Posts 2717 | Profile Blog |
On November 04 2009 05:06 HaXXspetten wrote:Yeah, I'm fully aware of how boosted burrow is in SC2, but that was not my problem...
Show nested quote +The problem with that tatic is if the Terran is smart and catches wind of this (either by noticing a missing army or even see one unit burrowing) he can simply just walk a marine over to where the burrow, shoot the marine with a single tank to kill a ton of lings with the splash.
Touché... but yes, this is more of a sneaky-build. It would probably only worke once, then he's onto you.
Except even if you catch him by surprise, there's a high chance that you won't get shit done with it anyway. Burrow is not worth it as a way to mount a surprise attack against Terran like that. At the pre-vessel timing, using that 100/100 on an extra mutalisk or a lurker would seriously be more useful. Last edit: 2009-11-04 05:21:54 |
| | Canata gives new meaning to the phrase "time attacker." - EvoChamber |
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| ReketSomething United States. November 04 2009 05:22. Posts 539 | Profile |
3 Uses for Burrow (that are used!)
1) Anti reaver
2) Anti eraser
3) Vision |
| | Savior - 2009, I believe...I mean Violet. |
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| Saracen United States. November 04 2009 05:24. Posts 2310 | Profile Blog |
| OP, I like your willingness to think outside of the box, but it's blatantly obvious to almost everyone who posted here but yourself why burrow's just not feasible the way you're advocating except for screwing around with complete noobies. And plus, 100 minerals 100 gas early game is a huge investment, especially if you want to get burrow at a good timing because you're delaying everything else (lair, speed, etc.) |
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 MooCow Canada. November 04 2009 05:25. Posts 562 | Profile |
On November 04 2009 05:22 ReketSomething wrote:
3 Uses for Burrow (that are used!)
1) Anti reaver
2) Anti eraser
3) Vision
DT/zealots/vulture attacks.
In late game a lot of games has players sending a small army just to attack a zerg's expansion, I know they usually have a sunken + ovie to guard but wouldn't burrowing your drones be a bit helpful in saving them?
Last edit: 2009-11-04 05:25:33 |
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| d3_crescentia United States. November 04 2009 05:25. Posts 500 | Profile Blog |
| I seem to recall in some guide that burrow is useful in ZvP against Sair/Reaver builds - for ambushes and to hide drones from Reavers. Getting burrow mid/late game is useful to keep track of army movements but not that great because of mobile detection, of course. |
| | once, not long ago, there was a moon here |
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| HaXXspetten Sweden. November 04 2009 05:32. Posts 164 | Profile Blog |
On November 04 2009 05:24 Saracen wrote:
OP, I like your willingness to think outside of the box, but it's blatantly obvious to almost everyone who posted here but yourself why burrow's just not feasible the way you're advocating except for screwing around with complete noobies. And plus, 100 minerals 100 gas early game is a huge investment, especially if you want to get burrow at a good timing because you're delaying everything else (lair, speed, etc.)
I did admit that I agree that overall, burrow is bad. I'm just saying that you should be able to use it, however extremely rarely, to catch your opponent off guard. Imagine a ZvZ on, let's say, Heartbreak Ridge, where you build a early pool, and your opponent goes for a fast expo. You run over with your lings, outside the overlord vision, and burrow at your opponents natural expansion. Not only will this, unlike just running around with a ling or drone, give u permanent blockage to your opponents natural, due to your ling being in the way until he sends an overlord there, but if he sends out his own lings towards your base, than you can see it, and just unburrow your own and start harassing his drones. (You can leave one ling to keep blocking) It would drive your opponent crazy to constantly have to deal with awkward situations he's never practiced for. |
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