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 YoureFired November 04 2009 11:53. Posts 13 | Profile |
I searched the boards and couldn't find an answer to my question, so I figured I would ask it here:
When playing as protoss, I generally find myself doing decently up until midgame rolls around; Terran, Zerg and even other Protoss just run me over. After looking at some replays, I realized that I was always behind in the number of gateways that I should have and saw that many pros have "set" times that they put gates down - i.e. add two when the natural is 75% done, add three when you get another base, etc.
Was just wondering when are the "best" times to add gateways, like in relation to your expansion timing and amount |
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| Diamondback2 United States. November 04 2009 11:54. Posts 172 | Profile Blog |
Good question (to which I have no answer for lol!)!
I would love to know this as well as I have the opposite problem, I always end up with WAYYYYYY too many gateways! |
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| YoureFired November 04 2009 12:00. Posts 13 | Profile |
| haha my recent games are all like that too (overcompensation works at D levels) but I want to eventually get past D so I need to know these |
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| Diamondback2 United States. November 04 2009 12:05. Posts 172 | Profile Blog |
On November 04 2009 12:00 YoureFired wrote:
haha my recent games are all like that too (overcompensation works at D levels) but I want to eventually get past D so I need to know these
For sure. The nice thing about having too many is when you have one of those "D" moments (O shit! I forgot to macro and have 2k mins now!!!!) you can spend the extra resources fast. However I feel my tech is way too sow because of it.
I think the 3rd base is when you strat throwing down an ass-ton of gates, but that's just off the top of my head remembering a SDM quote. |
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 lazz Australia. November 04 2009 12:19. Posts 1401 | Profile Blog |
whenever you have excess money over what is required to keep your economy growing
ie if you're pumping probes and pylons just fine, and have 300 minerals on top of that, then add two gates.
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| Knickknack United States. November 04 2009 12:29. Posts 1022 | Profile |
This is a case of not knowing the right question.
For instance in pvp we have:
1gate dt to expo
2gate goon/reaver/ob to expo
3gate goon/ob to expo
4gate goon.
So early game you can have 1 to 4gateways for pvp depending on how you want to play.
Depending on your build plan, when you can afford more gateways you add them...nothing special here.
Your problem is probably a mix of not having a good build plan, and not being able to macro well enough to keep mins spent as they come in.
But we can come up with rough guidelines from the above, such as no more than 4gates from one base in pvp. Or if I was to further give suggestion from 2base in pvp, no more than 6gates. But that is not terribly helpful. The more specific build plan you have in mind the more specific suggestions I can give. |
| | | Buildcraft page: http://tinyurl.com/p8wtq4 | |
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| YoureFired November 04 2009 12:49. Posts 13 | Profile |
| The builds I usually try are either 1 gate core into expo or a 10/15 gate, and I always end up adding gateways either too early or too late. and when I notice that I'm accumulating minerals, I can usually put down a lot of gateways and stay low. I usually lose in that transition period though... |
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 spoolinoveryou United States. November 04 2009 13:03. Posts 198 | Profile Blog |
On November 04 2009 12:05 Diamondback2 wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 04 2009 12:00 YoureFired wrote:
haha my recent games are all like that too (overcompensation works at D levels) but I want to eventually get past D so I need to know these
For sure. The nice thing about having too many is when you have one of those "D" moments (O shit! I forgot to macro and have 2k mins now!!!!) you can spend the extra resources fast. However I feel my tech is way too sow because of it. I think the 3rd base is when you strat throwing down an ass-ton of gates, but that's just off the top of my head remembering a SDM quote.
ooooh the precious "D" moments. i hate this most of all when zergs have these moments. especially when they are at hive tech and decide to pop out like 24 ultralisk and mass lings because they have so much money. kinda retarded on the person who lets them build up that much money though. |
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| Diamondback2 United States. November 04 2009 13:16. Posts 172 | Profile Blog |
On November 04 2009 13:03 spoolinoveryou wrote:
ooooh the precious "D" moments. i hate this most of all when zergs have these moments. especially when they are at hive tech and decide to pop out like 24 ultralisk and mass lings because they have so much money. kinda retarded on the person who lets them build up that much money though.
Yea well to make matters worse I'm the type of player that has played since 1.00 but only played campaigns, ums, FMP (alot sadly), and lan with friends so I never even knew about micro/macro/bo's until like December last year. the first time i saw some vultures rape an expansion and muta micro i was like "WTF!!!." So I am trying to get rid of almost 11 years of bad habits. Luckily I never use Ultra's, I make lots of templars instead  !
Thus my micro is a stronger thing for me, but my macro is sooooo forced. But I have improved. Before I couldn't take my eyes off a battle now I do more often.
But I refuse to believe there is not an optimum level of gateways out there based off the number of expansion you have taken and are using. I think this would be a good thing I'll throw in Liquipedia real quick as it would help alot of new players in the mid game.Last edit: 2009-11-04 13:17:23 |
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| Trowabarton756 United States. November 04 2009 13:16. Posts 86 | Profile |
The reason no one has a definite answer is because it usually depends on your match up, tech pattern, build, and number of bases plus what build your opponent is doing. The general rule of thumb is once you get probe saturation to a point(around 20 probes) you can easily support 3 gates and tech at the same time.
However its always better to reduce and work on 1 or 2 gates grab an expansion then add those gateways right after you start your nexus(storks thing in PvT is the moment he takes his 3rd base he starts warping in 4 extra gates on top of his 3 gates he had already).
My advice is just to play more, you'll learn your timings based on your builds.
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| Diamondback2 United States. November 04 2009 13:38. Posts 172 | Profile Blog |
On November 04 2009 13:16 Trowabarton756 wrote:
The reason no one has a definite answer is because it usually depends on your match up, tech pattern, build, and number of bases plus what build your opponent is doing. The general rule of thumb is once you get probe saturation to a point(around 20 probes) you can easily support 3 gates and tech at the same time.
However its always better to reduce and work on 1 or 2 gates grab an expansion then add those gateways right after you start your nexus(storks thing in PvT is the moment he takes his 3rd base he starts warping in 4 extra gates on top of his 3 gates he had already).
My advice is just to play more, you'll learn your timings based on your builds.
Actually that was a lot of help right there. And I know there is no 100% right solution just like a BO isn't going to work he exact same every time, there is too many little things that can change, but that is expected in SC. BUt I am sure there is guidelines (like you posted) which are more or less the best way if things are in your favor, and also are not. I got to imagine the number of gateways pros use is very calculated and optimized. |
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| Trowabarton756 United States. November 04 2009 13:43. Posts 86 | Profile |
| Yes if you're looking to max out its 3 gates per base(which can also be expanded to 4 gates a base if you don't want to expand anymore and have enough probes at both your natural/main) |
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| Ryuu314 United States. November 04 2009 14:52. Posts 87 | Profile |
On November 04 2009 13:16 Diamondback2 wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 04 2009 13:03 spoolinoveryou wrote:
ooooh the precious "D" moments. i hate this most of all when zergs have these moments. especially when they are at hive tech and decide to pop out like 24 ultralisk and mass lings because they have so much money. kinda retarded on the person who lets them build up that much money though.
Yea well to make matters worse I'm the type of player that has played since 1.00 but only played campaigns, ums, FMP (alot sadly), and lan with friends so I never even knew about micro/macro/bo's until like December last year. the first time i saw some vultures rape an expansion and muta micro i was like "WTF!!!." So I am trying to get rid of almost 11 years of bad habits. Luckily I never use Ultra's, I make lots of templars instead ! Thus my micro is a stronger thing for me, but my macro is sooooo forced. But I have improved. Before I couldn't take my eyes off a battle now I do more often. But I refuse to believe there is not an optimum level of gateways out there based off the number of expansion you have taken and are using. I think this would be a good thing I'll throw in Liquipedia real quick as it would help alot of new players in the mid game.
I'm a bit of a noob myself so don't flame me too much if I'm wrong, but I believe there really isn't an optimal level of gateways.
It all depends on your level of macro and how the game's going. If you have gosu macro, you need a lot less gateways than if you have noob macro. Also, if you're going for tech, you're going to have less gateways, as well. Pros are very aware of their level of skill in terms of macro. As a result, it'll be much more formulaic and set for them. For most people (like me!) it's better to just go with the flow of the game until you have a much better idea of your limits and strengths when it comes to macro. For example, when I was in D- and stuff I could have 10-15 gateways easy and not keep my mineral count below 1000. Now, I can manage to stay below 1000k minerals while only operating on say 6-8 gateways. Generally what I try to do is if I find that I'm having a hard time keeping my resources below say 700-1000 (and I'm not trying to horde resources for mass carriers or something) I add some gateways. The number of gateways I add is dependent on what I'm trying to do.
For instance, if I'm trying to tech I'll have less gateways. Or if I'm going to expand I'll have less gateways and use the minerals for cannons at my expo instead. I suppose one thing you can do is when you find that you're having trouble spending resources add one extra gateway. Then if you're still having trouble keeping your mineral/gas count down add another. With trial and error you'll eventually find the "optimal" level for specific scenarios. It will really vary based on your level of macro-ing skill and how the game's going.Last edit: 2009-11-04 14:57:20 |
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 doubleupgradeobbies!  Australia. November 04 2009 16:27. Posts 371 | Profile Blog |
On November 04 2009 11:53 YoureFired wrote:
I searched the boards and couldn't find an answer to my question, so I figured I would ask it here:
When playing as protoss, I generally find myself doing decently up until midgame rolls around; Terran, Zerg and even other Protoss just run me over. After looking at some replays, I realized that I was always behind in the number of gateways that I should have and saw that many pros have "set" times that they put gates down - i.e. add two when the natural is 75% done, add three when you get another base, etc.
Was just wondering when are the "best" times to add gateways, like in relation to your expansion timing and amount
As people have already pointed out there is no hard and fast rule to this. It depends greatly both on what type of build/opening you have started with/intend to do, as well as what you think/feel your opponent is going to/likely to do (obviously through what scouting information you have).
Initially, you actually need to put quite a bit of thought into this, it's not really something that people can even give you a particularly good guide on, let alone a rule of thumb. I think the most effective way is to try and think about the problem yourself. I will try to give you a general overview of how I approach the problem.
I'll use PvP and PvT as examples cos my PvZ is terribad, and I'm sure everything i do in that matchup is just wrong :D.
In PvT, you will expand after 0, 1 or 2 gates pretty much 100% of the time, usually 1. Normally after 1 gate openings, I will be looking to add 1 or 2 gates, and a robo shortly after my nexus. The order in which I add them will depend largely on what I scout, since you don't need to be cutting probes at this stage, the timing of these will only depend on the order they come down.
If you scout them building like 1 marine to deal with your scouting probe or no marines at all, and you scout that they took scvs off gas, it's usually safe to assume they are seige expanding, and I tend to add robo before any more gates for faster observers. If they built ~4 marines and look like they are FDing, I will look to add a gate first, then the robo, then perhaps another gate(the second gate timing is about when FD is moving out if they intend to be aggressive with the fd so you will know if you need it).
If you scout what looks like a 2 fact opening, you would look to add that second gate first, and sometimes a third gate before that robotics. The key being you don't want to cut units in order to add those buildings, these gates will only come online enough to provide maybe 1 goon, so you don't want to be cutting units out of existing gates to add more gates.
This regime of thinking can be equally applied after your 2nd expo (eg third base). You will probably want to add 1/2 gates minimum irrespective of what T is doing, but the exact number to add will again depend on what T intends to do, and what you intend to do.
If I scout him adding up facts to go for a 5/6 fact timing push, I will add 3/4 gates, perhaps even halting unit production for a while in order to get them down. If it's a 4 fact push, I'd add the 1/2 I'd intend to add as a minimum, and then add another 2 or so as minerals allow without cutting unit production.
If Terran is looking to take a quick third, you will need to decide if you want to punish them for it, or to take a quicker 4th yourself.
I think the basic gist of it is that you need to think about whether or not you need the immediate units from the existing gates more, or if you have some time to spare, and want to work on your production capacity first(I try not to delay tech too much, and keep probe cutting to a minimum). Obviously this depends greatly on how many units you need and exactly when. As a general rule, gates should start coming pretty much immediately after an expo. Only depending on whether or not you can afford to cut unit production to get them down, or if you need to add them concurrent with existing unit production.
After your third base, I find in PvT i just want to get to around 10 gates quickly, then slowly add them (without cutting units, pylons, tech, expos, and probes if you still need more) as minerals allow until you get to around 20 gates, sometimes more. At this stage it's pretty much a case of remember to add more without compromising using your existing gates, whenever minerals allow.
PvP you will find actually has the same kind of thinking, you will more likely expand on 2/3 gates with a good possibility of robo up before your nat. After you expo, you need to consider what your opponent is doing (or you think they are likely to be doing, if you can't get satisfactory scouting info). Then add gates in a way that either you don't get run over by unit production, of you run them over with unit production, depending on situation and preference.
It is a bit more complicated with reaver, observer, zealot speed and templar tech being pretty important, and actually needing to delay some or all of this tech in order to survive certain situations. But the general train of thought is similar to PvT, "how many units do I need, when exactly do I need them". The number of gates per expo is also similar to PvT in the mid/late games. Perhaps slightly fewer (still need like well over 10 one you have 3 or more mining bases) as you will probably engage more often, thus leading to less idle time on gates.
I think the best way to improve this is to play with this kind of thinking in mind, then analyse the replay afterwards to see if you achieved what you were trying to achieve. It will depend greatly on your style of play, your opponents style and your mechanics.
Tldr: As a general rule almost immediately after expo, might need to delay to build units out of existing gates. Takes a bit of thought about just how your going to do it, and is probably more important to know how to think about when to add gates, than to have some rules on when to add them.Last edit: 2009-11-04 16:33:16 |
| | orbifold: PRO-TIP FROM SHUTTLE: Dragoons provide excellent mine detection by walking into them. |
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| fc November 04 2009 20:27. Posts 10 | Profile |
Dont know if thats a good rule overall but it works for me quiet well. I am just a D lvl player how ever.
In generell i make 4 gateways for each base. If i have to tech actually i cut 2 gateways. For example. If i play 1 base and build up my tech i produce from 2 gateways. If i FE, in pvz for example, i use 6 gateways until my tech is done, then i add 2 more gates. |
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 Nytefish United Kingdom. November 05 2009 00:06. Posts 1847 | Profile Blog |
I think this is a difficult question, once you're on 2+ bases it's something you mainly learn through experience and it varies a lot. There's vague rules like "3 gates per base if you're still looking to tech or expand, then 4" but honestly I just completely wing it every game.
Don't be afraid to stick down a bunch of extra gates if you can't keep your money low, over time you'll get better and need less gates. I don't think not knowing the optimal timing and number is what's holding your macro back, since I still don't know them... |
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 Cloud Sexico. November 05 2009 00:42. Posts 4634 | Profile Blog |
Your build order should give you the right timing for your first three or four gateways.
Once you don't need to add more tech however (no more robotics or templar archives or upgrades), add some 4 more. It doesn't matter if you're on 2 bases with as many as 8 gateways. You're not pro enough to spend perfectly with 4-6.
So add 4 gateways per base.Last edit: 2009-11-05 00:43:06 |
| | BlueLaguna on West, msg for game. |
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 Pokebunny United States. November 05 2009 01:28. Posts 1895 | Profile Blog |
| There is no hard number as you'll always be reacting to your opponent or planning it as part of your build order. Overcompensation is fine, you'll find that as your mechanics progress you'll realize "hey I have no money to add a gate here anymore like I used to" or "hey I don't have enough money to use all these gates" and you'll make a couple less. |
| "God dammit Pholon, why do you hate me because I have a vagina?" - NeverGG
"And then I met arb and thought he was cute" - LastShadow :: aka mG.Pokebunny |
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| DanKlSauce United States. November 05 2009 05:25. Posts 17 | Profile |
| Hi this is what I use for PvT. Just assume the game is norm with minimal harass.ent and a macrofest tool late game. I expo off of 1 gateway then add 2 more before expanding. If I feel greedy o will only expand off of two. Then o just sub consciously add more to keep money low so sorry my help is so limited |
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 Saracen United States. November 05 2009 06:16. Posts 2310 | Profile Blog |
| If you find yourself queuing units, cancel them and add gates. |
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