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 wok United States. November 05 2009 09:50. Posts 384 | Profile Blog |
The standard pvp rps of mass gates > robo > dt > mass gates doesn't quite seem to hold on this map.
For example, my standard build of 2-gate obs-first robo, expo on reaver, doesn't seem to be effective against stopping a determined dt attack because of the 3 entrances into the main.
A crafty dt glitched into each of the 2 backdoors and a small harrass force at the front door beats down a 2-gate obs hard... (the standard strategy is to block the ramp for a few seconds while the obs is popping, but how do you block 3 entrances?)
I know the obvious answer to the question is just
1.) put down a probe or pylon in each of the backdoors and
2.) "keep an eye on the minimap"
But against a crafty attacker, I'd like a bit more build-order security so that if I miss the flash of their probe on my backdoor min line for 2 seconds while they glitch in their dt, I won't instalose.
So if the above was tl;dr, what is a solid macro build on outsider that doesn't auto-lose to dts? |
| | I'll race you to defeatism... you win. |
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 ajmbek Italy. November 05 2009 10:00. Posts 49 | Profile |
jo, i really dont know how you can manage to not have obz in time, if he do a proxy you will scaut it, if he is gonna drop the dt i really think you have 1obz before him shuttle and dts
any ways you can play 1gate robo on every ramp map, like the zcorez bo
one other option is to play like on gods garder, some sort of 1 gate 2 zilot exp, and then you can adapt putting down a cannon or going obzes a bit earlyer dependin what you scaut, in this canse is really important to not lose the scautin probe for long time.
if he goes some sort of 3-4 gate goons just use probes on ramp immidiately, dont wait to lose the first few units, and vs 4 gate goons you can have dts in time going a fe bo to make a hard counter |
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| wok United States. November 05 2009 10:07. Posts 384 | Profile Blog |
| He doesn't need to proxy, because of Outsider's map layout.. or he can do it where you can't see it unless you also glitch. So essentially you're looking at a sub-5:40 dt pop and a sub: 6:30 slash on the nex. Early Obs pop at about the same time. |
| | I'll race you to defeatism... you win. |
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 nicoaldo Argentina. November 05 2009 10:19. Posts 378 | Profile |
| Try opening 2 gate, is quite strong in this map, also if he holds you can expand with cannons and add another 1 or 2 in your main to be safe while u tech and add gates, if he goes Dts and fails, u will outmacro him and run over his army. |
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| wok United States. November 05 2009 10:27. Posts 384 | Profile Blog |
On November 05 2009 10:19 nicoaldo wrote:
Try opening 2 gate, is quite strong in this map, also if he holds you can expand with cannons and add another 1 or 2 in your main to be safe while u tech and add gates, if he goes Dts and fails, u will outmacro him and run over his army.
Thanks. This sounds pretty solid. I was looking for something similar to a forge first FE that didn't leave the wide-open holes in the back, and a transition from 2-gate sounds reasonable! |
| | I'll race you to defeatism... you win. |
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 Harem United States. November 05 2009 10:35. Posts 2815 | Profile | |
| | [iHs]h8m ｡◕‿◕｡ 'He might be massing Hydra, I don't know, it's all situational and hypocritcal' |
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| wok United States. November 05 2009 10:50. Posts 384 | Profile Blog | |
| | I'll race you to defeatism... you win. |
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 Gnarly United States. November 05 2009 14:50. Posts 119 | Profile Blog |
If you want to know how to defend three places at once, reduce the amount of area you need to cover. Sim-city in your base, actually figure out what buildings can block what.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Unit_Size
The sides of whatever buildings you choose must not add up to the size of a zealot or dt, and make your min line is only accessible from one area. You can even reduce the paths for scarabs if you can get a good starting position.
If you want to FE, just set up a defense at your front ramp, and either glitch your probe over or not. If you want protection against drops, I would actually recommend a scout because they can take down a shuttle extremely fast, and even harass a little bit.
Maybe. |
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| wok United States. November 05 2009 15:03. Posts 384 | Profile Blog |
On November 05 2009 14:50 Gnarly wrote:If you want to know how to defend three places at once, reduce the amount of area you need to cover. Sim-city in your base, actually figure out what buildings can block what. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Unit_SizeThe sides of whatever buildings you choose must not add up to the size of a zealot or dt, and make your min line is only accessible from one area. You can even reduce the paths for scarabs if you can get a good starting position. If you want to FE, just set up a defense at your front ramp, and either glitch your probe over or not. If you want protection against drops, I would actually recommend a scout because they can take down a shuttle extremely fast, and even harass a little bit. Maybe.
I don't know that these recommendations make sense. Simcitying a nat is feasible. Doing so on a main purely against dts seems incredibly farfetched.
And you're recommending a scout... That's 150/150 for a stargate I wasn't going to build and another huge amount of money for each scout... If i'm worried about drops at my backdoors, 3 goons to each side is just as cost effective... Only 6 goons away from the front is already more than I'm willing to spare.
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| | I'll race you to defeatism... you win. |
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| Gnarly United States. November 05 2009 15:27. Posts 119 | Profile Blog |
If you get the goons, he can just go and harass elsewhere. They are a deterrent. The scout, on the other hand, can chase down the shuttle and make him waste up to almost double what you paid for in full for the scout. That is if he went robo instead of DT.
That and the fact that you are not sending a number of goons away to deflect a drop that early in the game.
But for the OP, I didn't register the expo part. I'm not exactly sober right now... But you can sim-city your main. If you don't build your first gate or two, core, robo fac, obs, and a few pylons in your nat, they will be in your main. Depending on which map your are playing, and what position you get, you can figure out how to reduce the gaps to getting in your min line. This can help by delaying, even though for a small amount of time, the DT from getting into it.
Why wouldn't you take the time to utilize building positioning? |
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| wok United States. November 05 2009 16:06. Posts 384 | Profile Blog |
On November 05 2009 15:27 Gnarly wrote:
If you get the goons, he can just go and harass elsewhere. They are a deterrent. The scout, on the other hand, can chase down the shuttle and make him waste up to almost double what you paid for in full for the scout. That is if he went robo instead of DT.
That and the fact that you are not sending a number of goons away to deflect a drop that early in the game.
But for the OP, I didn't register the expo part. I'm not exactly sober right now... But you can sim-city your main. If you don't build your first gate or two, core, robo fac, obs, and a few pylons in your nat, they will be in your main. Depending on which map your are playing, and what position you get, you can figure out how to reduce the gaps to getting in your min line. This can help by delaying, even though for a small amount of time, the DT from getting into it.
Why wouldn't you take the time to utilize building positioning?
Just fyi: cost of shuttle + 2templars = 300/300
cost of shuttle + 2dts = 450/200
Cost of stargate + scout = 425/275
I'd take either of those trades any day... by building a scout, you've done enough damage to yourself to make him not even have to harrass!
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| | I'll race you to defeatism... you win. |
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 Nevuk United States. November 05 2009 16:14. Posts 1754 | Profile Blog |
A scout only makes sense on outsider for later in the game, and it's still not as good as mass speed shuttles with goons (IE, it's way less mobile unless you upgrade). PvP on outsider plays out much more like a TvT than a regular pvp. If you can outnumber their shuttle count you can survive off a lower number of units because you can be secure turtling behind your ramps and running up 20-30 goons in your 10 -15 shuttles to deal with recalls/harassment. If you get behind in shuttle count your best bet is to take the other main and just hold on until they run out of gas and minerals, due to the geysers only have 2500 gas each and the mineral fields being very low.
You can block your ramp with a few goons off of 1 gate while getting a fast observer into expansion and be safe as long as you position well against 2 gate. It's rare to see 4 gate on outsider, but if you want to be more secure add a second gate before your expansion, but after the robotics facility.
The biggest danger on outsider is them hopping a dt through and then attacking your front and taking out probes without you noticing because they are trying to bust your front at the same time.
(This is my lower level advice). |
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| wok United States. November 05 2009 16:17. Posts 384 | Profile Blog |
Hi nevuk! Thanks  You're on my friends list for iccup! :D |
| | I'll race you to defeatism... you win. |
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| Nevuk United States. November 05 2009 16:30. Posts 1754 | Profile Blog |
On November 05 2009 16:17 wok wrote:Hi nevuk! Thanks You're on my friends list for iccup! :D
Yep, we tested out 10 12 gate vs 12 nexus, remember? I'm still not sure if 10 12 gate is the counter to it. At the very least, you would have to have already gone 12 gate before scouting it. |
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| wok United States. November 05 2009 17:01. Posts 384 | Profile Blog |
On November 05 2009 16:30 Nevuk wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 05 2009 16:17 wok wrote:Hi nevuk! Thanks You're on my friends list for iccup! :D
Yep, we tested out 10 12 gate vs 12 nexus, remember? I'm still not sure if 10 12 gate is the counter to it. At the very least, you would have to have already gone 12 gate before scouting it.
We tested it against 13 nex and we concluded that while 13 nex won't be out-massed, it can certainly be out-teched. Very useful Last edit: 2009-11-05 17:02:23 |
| | I'll race you to defeatism... you win. |
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| ajmbek Italy. November 05 2009 19:44. Posts 49 | Profile |
| 10/12 kills 12 nexus with no problem, zelots can, if not a goon transition can, if no the river micro will. Thats sure. And not a single protos has gone 12nexus in a prolegue game from the begginings to now, that means somethink, pvp is not fantasy, have some rules |
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| Gnarly United States. November 06 2009 00:46. Posts 119 | Profile Blog |
On November 05 2009 16:06 wok wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 05 2009 15:27 Gnarly wrote:
If you get the goons, he can just go and harass elsewhere. They are a deterrent. The scout, on the other hand, can chase down the shuttle and make him waste up to almost double what you paid for in full for the scout. That is if he went robo instead of DT.
That and the fact that you are not sending a number of goons away to deflect a drop that early in the game.
But for the OP, I didn't register the expo part. I'm not exactly sober right now... But you can sim-city your main. If you don't build your first gate or two, core, robo fac, obs, and a few pylons in your nat, they will be in your main. Depending on which map your are playing, and what position you get, you can figure out how to reduce the gaps to getting in your min line. This can help by delaying, even though for a small amount of time, the DT from getting into it.
Why wouldn't you take the time to utilize building positioning?
Just fyi: cost of shuttle + 2templars = 300/300 cost of shuttle + 2dts = 450/200 Cost of stargate + scout = 425/275 I'd take either of those trades any day... by building a scout, you've done enough damage to yourself to make him not even have to harrass!
Be realistic. Remember, you're talking about an early attack, not a double HT drop rush. What I was talking about was if the guy went double reaver drop, you know, standard safe play.
Also, if you want to count the stargate, you must include robo fac. That is 200/200, which makes it more appealing to get one scout to deal with drops. Did you count having to research storm for those HT's to work? Let's fix up your numbers.
Cost of shuttle with 2HT's storm capable = 200 + (50/150)2 + 200/200 + 200/200 = 700/700
Cost of shuttle with 2DT's = 200 + (125/100)2 + 200/200 = 650/400
Cost of scout = 275/125 + 150/150 = 425/275
Cost of shuttle with two reavers = (200/100)2 + (75)2 + 200 + 200/200 = 950/400
A scout without +1 can take down a shuttle in six hits. That is really fast. With +1, it's reduced to five. Even faster. If you get the speed upgrade (assuming you are going arbs, and that late in the game), it just completely renders drops useless, unless they can sneak them by.
The only problem with going scout is if they go DT. This somewhat makes the DT bulid similar to that of a scout build: you need cannons. Or you can just wait until you see the robo and pop that stargate up. You can afford to be late with the stargate due to how long it takes to get a shuttle with reavers in it, or how long it would take to get 2DT/HT's in there.
Edit: NumbersLast edit: 2009-11-06 13:54:00 |
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