 musashi United States. November 06 2009 12:15. Posts 19 | Profile |
I was playing a ZvT and the game went back and forth as it often does. I got zerglings and sat at his choke, he got mm and took my choke,
I went 3 hat lurker and pushed him back to his choke, he got tanks and pushed me back to mine, I got defilers and eventually used swarm to push him back to his choke.
While watching this pendulum motion it occurred to me that ground - how far your army is from your base and how far your opponent is from theirs is a resource as much as time, minerals or gas. (it occurs to me that this is not a good definition because of flanks, divided armies and the like, if someone can give me a better def I would appreciate it).
For example, when you dark swarm terran's ball and he moves back you are trading minerals, in the form of zerglings, in the form of dark swarm - they have been consumed - and also time (the apm necessary to complete a swarm successfully) in exchange for ground and perhaps the stray mm or tank that doesn't back up in time.
I find however, that ground is a resource most commonly exchanged for time. You might stall a lurker push for example by darting in and shooting the lurkers with mm every time they try to move forward. This gives you the time to make tanks, vessels, or bunkers, whatever is needed in order to defeat the push.
An example of squandering this resource was when a terran adversary of mine got his contain swarmed and then freaked out because of the early defilers and ran all his units back to his natural. I then greedily moved the lurks and defilers down to his choke, swarmed his nat and gg. The point is that he had freely given up ground, and therefore time, and so was at such a disadvantage because of this that he lost the game. Had he stalled he would have had enough energy to irradiate the few defilers and then retake the ground.
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=23995
Thoughts? |
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 NrG.NeverExpo Canada. November 06 2009 12:23. Posts 111 | Profile |
| Yea position is a huge part of the game. You see this when army sizes are really different. A terran can have 200/200 vs a protoss' 150/200, but with the wrong attack at the wrong place, he can lose the game >.< |
| | 60% of the time, I win everytime. |
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 Chill Canada. November 06 2009 12:46. Posts 12185 | Profile Blog |
| You're vastly overcomplicating a simple concept. |
| | She also isn't my hero. The only hero's I have is our Founders, specifically Thomas Jefferson and my parents. |
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 Jadyks United States. November 06 2009 13:02. Posts 85 | Profile Blog |
| You're vastly oversimplifying a complicated concept. |
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 Severedevil United States. November 06 2009 13:06. Posts 427 | Profile |
| Positioning in general is quite complicated. It's only simple if your armies stay on the path between your base and his. |
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 evanthebouncy! United States. November 06 2009 13:15. Posts 8351 | Profile Blog |
| haha I used to have this idea to make 12332132 zerglings and "slow push" terran back with swarm. As in not just 2 swarms,no, fuck 2 swarms I wanted to cover the entire map under swarms hahaha. It sounded pretty cool but never really had enough resource/speed to pull it off. |
| | Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die! |
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 selboN United States. November 06 2009 13:26. Posts 1189 | Profile Blog |
On November 06 2009 13:15 evanthebouncy! wrote:
haha I used to have this idea to make 12332132 zerglings and "slow push" terran back with swarm. As in not just 2 swarms,no, fuck 2 swarms I wanted to cover the entire map under swarms hahaha. It sounded pretty cool but never really had enough resource/speed to pull it off.
Sounds imba
This is an interesting concept, I see where you're going with it. But, I do think you're making it more complicated than it actually is... I think the overall "resources" you trade with the gaining of ground is very low, in comparison to the outcome of the game. Last edit: 2009-11-06 13:29:32 |
| | "That's what happens when you're using a mouse made out of glass!" -Tasteless (Referring to ZergBong) |
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 Mystlord United States. November 06 2009 13:31. Posts 2023 | Profile Blog |
| I would file this under general knowledge because it's a fairly intuitive concept. Not much else to say. |
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| Soulforged Latvia. November 06 2009 13:38. Posts 84 | Profile Blog |
On November 06 2009 12:23 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:
Yea position is a huge part of the game. You see this when army sizes are really different. A terran can have 200/200 vs a protoss' 150/200, but with the wrong attack at the wrong place, he can lose the game >.<
Usually it's reversed. Really. |
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 OreoBoi Canada. November 06 2009 14:10. Posts 558 | Profile Blog |
| You basically just explained the concept of map control. I don't know if I have any other thoughts because I'm generally more focused on how to get map control instead knowing what map control is. |
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| musashi United States. November 06 2009 14:13. Posts 19 | Profile |
| I am amused by the fact that so few of these responses are in accord with one another. One agrees, another says it's overcomplicating, one says it's oversimplifying, and yet another says that the concept is so obvious that it should not even be mentioned. It would be useful if we could reach some sort of consensus. |
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| Trang Australia. November 06 2009 14:24. Posts 17 | Profile |
On November 06 2009 14:13 musashi wrote:
I am amused by the fact that so few of these responses are in accord with one another. One agrees, another says it's overcomplicating, one says it's oversimplifying, and yet another says that the concept is so obvious that it should not even be mentioned. It would be useful if we could reach some sort of consensus.
The concept of holding ground is so obvious it goes without saying. Trying to put the concept in a formulaic manner is an oversimplification. The way he has gone about explaining it is over-complicated given the aim of a simple formulaic expression of the concept. I think this explains why people are disagreeing about it. |
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| OreoBoi Canada. November 06 2009 14:24. Posts 558 | Profile Blog |
On November 06 2009 14:13 musashi wrote:
I am amused by the fact that so few of these responses are in accord with one another. One agrees, another says it's overcomplicating, one says it's oversimplifying, and yet another says that the concept is so obvious that it should not even be mentioned. It would be useful if we could reach some sort of consensus.
Its because your point isn't debatable. The answer to "Is ground a valuable resource?" is an obvious yes. There's no other way to put it. You haven't raised a specific enough point for a debate to be truly started. Chill is saying that you vastly overcomplicated the concept of map control. However, you completely oversimplified the point of why map control is important.
Basically, the concept you raised is obvious, the way you explained it is overcomplicated, and your insight into the implications of your point is oversimplified.
Wow... My post is so overcomplicated X.X |
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| Trang Australia. November 06 2009 14:35. Posts 17 | Profile |
On November 06 2009 14:24 OreoBoi wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 06 2009 14:13 musashi wrote:
I am amused by the fact that so few of these responses are in accord with one another. One agrees, another says it's overcomplicating, one says it's oversimplifying, and yet another says that the concept is so obvious that it should not even be mentioned. It would be useful if we could reach some sort of consensus.
Its because your point isn't debatable. The answer to "Is ground a valuable resource?" is an obvious yes. There's no other way to put it. You haven't raised a specific enough point for a debate to be truly started. Chill is saying that you vastly overcomplicated the concept of map control. However, you completely oversimplified the point of why map control is important. Basically, the concept you raised is obvious, the way you explained it is overcomplicated, and your insight into the implications of your point is oversimplified. Wow... My post is so overcomplicated X.X
Haha, we said the same thing and posted on the same minute... great minds think alike. |
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| NrG.NeverExpo Canada. November 07 2009 05:58. Posts 111 | Profile |
On November 06 2009 13:38 Soulforged wrote:
Show nested quote +On November 06 2009 12:23 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:
Yea position is a huge part of the game. You see this when army sizes are really different. A terran can have 200/200 vs a protoss' 150/200, but with the wrong attack at the wrong place, he can lose the game >.<
Usually it's reversed. Really.
Yea i know, im saying that the concept of ground and position could cause it to be different though. Usually terran would win, but judging by where their armins sit it could be a whole different game. |
| | 60% of the time, I win everytime. |
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| searcher November 07 2009 06:15. Posts 70 | Profile |
On November 06 2009 12:46 Chill wrote:
You're vastly overcomplicating a simple concept.
Of course "ground" is important. Identifying it as a "resource" adds nothing to our understanding of it. |
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 ZERG_RUSSIAN November 07 2009 06:18. Posts 370 | Profile Blog |
| Map control, what an amazing concept!!!!!!!1 |
| | Kami-KoD- on west, Conspiracies on iccup, ex-5HITCOMBO |
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| Rucky United States. November 07 2009 06:29. Posts 440 | Profile |
don't even need to use these new definitions of ground and resource. It's just what people call positioning of army and map control.
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| DM20 Canada. November 07 2009 07:05. Posts 328 | Profile |
| I got a nice plot of land behind the nat in HBR for sale. |
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 Pokebunny United States. November 07 2009 07:43. Posts 1890 | Profile Blog |
On November 06 2009 13:15 evanthebouncy! wrote:
haha I used to have this idea to make 12332132 zerglings and "slow push" terran back with swarm. As in not just 2 swarms,no, fuck 2 swarms I wanted to cover the entire map under swarms hahaha. It sounded pretty cool but never really had enough resource/speed to pull it off.
Uhhh a couple firebats? lol |
| "God dammit Pholon, why do you hate me because I have a vagina?" - NeverGG
"And then I met arb and thought he was cute" - LastShadow :: aka mG.Pokebunny |
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