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 mint_julep United States. November 08 2009 13:09. Posts 12 | Profile |
I've been playing bw on iccup for a short time and getting owned alot, and had my first win vs zerg today. I seem to play a lot of ZvP and so I've been focusing my study on ZvP builds. Today I joined a game titled "1v1 python D" and was shocked to see my apponent was not zerg for once, and I proceeded to get owned in embarassing fashion due to my lack of knowledge of PvP. So here are my questions:
1) my opponents reaver harass basically put me out of the game. I was able to scout him pretty fast and kept my scount alive long enough to see him try to hide his robo in the corner so I should have been able to see that coming. What is an effective way to deal with reaver (or storm for that matter) drops as a protoss player?
2) not knowing what to expect in PvP I stuck to my standard zerg forge-first FE build. from a theory point of view why is this not done in PvP? I see on the PvP page in liquipedia that FE isnt even discussed.
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 Catch]22 Sweden. November 08 2009 13:16. Posts 278 | Profile |
1: Goons, and reaver drops of your own
2: Zealots > Cannons, dont forge FE, in fact, dont FE.
Oh, and as for learning PvP, you can always keep doing what you dont know the counter to, and eventually you'll learn how to beat it by watching other players. |
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| Ryuu314 United States. November 08 2009 13:18. Posts 87 | Profile |
Do not EVER do a FE in PvP unless the map is big enough for you to react in time and you have gosu probe scouting ability. I find that in the lower levels of PvP the first person to expand tends to lose unless they've gotten the appropriate tech out already to protect their expos (i.e. DTs and/or reavers). Also if you watch the pro replays you'll see that they tend to not expand very early. The expanding is rather late usually. Most builds on liquipedia also don't suggest expanding until you're at least up in the high 30s to 40s in terms of supply count. I know that the 2gate reaver build doesn't suggest a expansion until like 85 or something. The reason why FEs dont' work in PvP is because the combined might of zealots and goons can easily overpower the 1-2 or maybe even 3-4 cannons that the PvZ FE would employ. Getting a sufficient amount of cannons to defend your FE would cost so much it'd basically negate any advantage FE-ing would do for you. In addition, you'll be very behind in terms of tech and PvP is all about who can use the higher tech better and faster.
If you see the other guy going for drops, either set up drops of your own or get a forge and cannons up fast or get goons (preferably with range).
That said, a common PvP build is 10/12 gate. It's flexible and quite useful in many situations. I personally like to go 2gate reaver because it allows for faster teching and you can get obs pretty easily if you spot a DT rush. Another thing I like to do is to get obs everywhere. Especially in their natural. This way if I see him sneaking in an early expo I can punish him for it by attacking.
Before anyone flames me I would like to say that I'm speaking through my experience from a roughly D level (which is where the OP is currently).Last edit: 2009-11-08 13:26:51 |
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 PH United States. November 08 2009 13:38. Posts 3413 | Profile Blog |
Best way to defend a reaver drop is to see it coming and react quickly to it. You'll need to be able to move your goons quickly to wherever the shuttle is headed, and be able to VERY quickly maynard probes back and forth.
If the guy is persistent about it, leave 2-3 goons by your main mineral line to buy you a bit of time.
Forge Expands simply don't work against protoss. It works against zerg because it was developed as a PvZ build. Zerg can out-expo protoss very easily, so fast expanding became necessary in the matchup to keep them on a more even keel. The difference in power between a one gas P and two gas P is quite substantial.
Forge expo'ing aside, you don't even see fast expo'ing in PvP. That's horribly dangerous. So...don't even think about it in PvP. |
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 CorsairHero Canada. November 08 2009 13:46. Posts 345 | Profile |
if you don't know what kind of build he is going for, keep 2 or 3 goons in your base before you move out. It shouldnt be too hard to defend as you should be on 1 base.
I wouldnt do FE because reasons I dont FE vs p is because reavers out range cannons and can kill them quite easily
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| DTK-m2 China. November 08 2009 14:04. Posts 25 | Profile |
I kind of suck, so I may be wrong, but I don't forge-FE in PvP because if I see you FE, I'll just put down my Nexus. All the minerals that you put into the forge and cannons, I put into gateway, core, and assim. My tech is faster, I have more units, and I'm just as safe as you are. My Nexus might even be earlier than yours, depending on how gutsy I am.
If you see the other person put down a forge at their nat, then you have to make sure they're not faking some +1 zeal thing or whatever, so check to see if they put down a Nexus. If they do, then put your own down and you're suddenly ahead. |
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 MuffinDude United States. November 08 2009 14:53. Posts 1695 | Profile |
forge fe in pvp. BWAHAHAHA. WHAT A NOOB!
Okay, sorry about that. But in pvp, what you want to do is make units, tech to goons asap. If they tech to reaver, put pylons up around your base. Keep like 3 goons in your base. Look for any shuttle in your minimap at all time. And just shoot down the shuttle as it comes down. Never go forge-fe in pvp. You only use that in pvz. |
| | Stork's diet is making him boney. |
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 The Raurosaur November 08 2009 15:02. Posts 187 | Profile |
| It's interesting that (from his description) it wasn't the FE that cost him the game, it was the reaver harass. I think FE is viable in PvP (but not forge-first) if you're feeling particularly gutsy or you're playing a set. |
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| Ryuu314 United States. November 08 2009 15:20. Posts 87 | Profile |
On November 08 2009 15:02 The Raurosaur wrote:
It's interesting that (from his description) it wasn't the FE that cost him the game, it was the reaver harass. I think FE is viable in PvP (but not forge-first) if you're feeling particularly gutsy or you're playing a set.
there is a 14 nexus build for PvP but it's generally only recommended for big, 4v4 maps. in smaller maps where they can scout you fast it's not very safe to do a FE as it just screams "RUSH ME" |
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| Severedevil United States. November 08 2009 15:47. Posts 427 | Profile |
| On maps with a backyard expansion, fast nexus should be viable, and maybe also maps with a longer rush distance. But I doubt you'll be able to fast nexus without cutting probes... a PvT 12nexus build might be a better place to start. (I'm still curious whether 11nexus-->2gateway zealots is viable on a normal map. I think it fends off any non-proxy zealot rush, but the zealots are probably too late to delay the opponent's dragoon tech, so good goon micro should punish you.) |
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 fearus China. November 08 2009 15:54. Posts 1106 | Profile |
RE: FE in PvP
Actually the reason you cant forge fe in pvp is because the other guy can forgeless double exp.Last edit: 2009-11-08 15:56:08 |
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| Traveler United States. November 08 2009 17:46. Posts 58 | Profile |
Basically the easiest way to deal with reaver drops is to just have 2 goons in your base to attack the shuttle.
Ok, I'm assuming your D- and are fairly new because of this question. Basically PvP is a mirror matchup, which means that army size is really going to matter much more than expansions or defense because of the nature of mirror matchups. Anyways, forge FE works against zerg because lings are weak and cannons fire fast enough to kill a substantial amount of them. However in PvP zealots and goons are both extremely strong. Thusly cannons don't kill them very fast while cannons die pretty easily to zealots and goons.
I would also not recommend expanding early in PvP (I only expand after like 40 or so and then only with the advantage) this is because the minerals spent expanding put you way behind in unit count and thus behind because in a mirror matchup the bigger army will almost always win. |
| | I believe in Dark Archon. |
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 kvilx Poland. November 08 2009 19:24. Posts 188 | Profile Blog |
I suggest you to build Pylons on a side of your main to gain more vision.
If your Observer sees enemy Shuttle ouside his base, make it follow the Shuttle.
You can hotkey all Probes as 9 or 0 to move them away faster when necessary.
FE is not a good way to open PvP because of huge tech disadvantage it causes.Last edit: 2009-11-08 19:25:01 |
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| Cu(oCo) Italy. November 08 2009 23:55. Posts 161 | Profile Blog |
dont fe with a forge. never
do 12 nexus instead |
| | Goons? just vulture toys 휴.휴 |
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| boring November 09 2009 00:14. Posts 26 | Profile |
1 goons behind mineral lines
2 if you make a forge (150 minerals) and 2 canons (300 minerals ) you spend 450 minerals plus a nexus. this means he can expand without you able to stop it. you have cannons and a base while he has 3 bases if he wants. |
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| MrHickoryHam54 United States. November 10 2009 12:12. Posts 124 | Profile |
On November 08 2009 13:16 Catch]22 wrote:
1: Goons, and reaver drops of your own
2: Zealots > Cannons, dont forge FE, in fact, dont FE.
Oh, and as for learning PvP, you can always keep doing what you dont know the counter to, and eventually you'll learn how to beat it by watching other players.
ok im sorry for leading u down this path, but here goes
if u proxy (omg ive said it lol), u can follow up with a forge, then nex.
but because we're all honorable, non-idiotic sc players, lets leave out the proxy part
DONT FFE, u can FE if u drank Reach's workout sweat and/or the map is 4 pl (still pretty risky).
To counter reaver drops, use reavers of your own, like catch said. also, i dont think u can go wrong with storms, so consider those (if ur comfortable) |
| | 2009-10 Proleague MVP: Doctor.K_PsP |
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