          
Website Feedback
Closed Threads
IRC Updated
irc.quakenet.org #teamliquid
IRC Web Client | | New to Team Liquid? Register here! | | | | The TSL Ladder starts in . Click here for details. | | | |
|
 Gnarly United States. November 08 2009 16:15. Posts 119 | Profile Blog |
Now, now, calm down, we're not talking about rushing mass scouts or anything, but examining the scout as a unit and understand what its purposes are. I have done a lot of searching for discussion about the scout, but I can't find much on it, other than just the numbers of it.
First off, the noticeable thing about the scout is it's air to air damage. Besides the scourge, is there any other air unit that deals that much damage to air units? Nope. The battle cruiser is off by three points, and the wraith is off by eight. The devourer is off by three as well, and the scourge, well, that's different. What damage does the scout do to air units? If it's a large unit, it does twenty-eight damage. That's six, unless you want it to be five, hits to a shuttle and dropship.
So we know that the scout is useful for anti-air measurements. Always recommended against heavy air armies, but what else can it be used for? Well, there is overlord sniping, but there is also the corsair which is much less expensive, and is trained faster. What about using the scout to defend against drops? Usually people say to just cannon up or leave a few goons. The problem with this is that the cannons are static, with limited range, and goons can only move so fast, only where they can go, and even straight up freeze on you. The scout, on the other hand, has it's mobility and damage to completely stop a drop.
Got two cannons up in your nat? Well, let's just find out how we can get those probes anyway, and if not, go harass else where. Oh great, goons in your main, well I can still screw with you for a little bit over there, and then come back here. Wait, is that a scout? FFFUUUUUUUUU-
Two cannons do cost only 300 minerals, and 2-4 goons is 250/100-500/200. Scout, if you want to count the stargate, is 425/275, if I remember correctly.
Let's examine the cost effectiveness of the two cannons. Three hundred minerals for static defense with a detection (range) of seven. I would recommend this against vult harass, ling harass, you know.... ground units. You also have zealots accompanying storm drops, just to distract the cannons. Tanks out-range cannons, so if you've a cliff, might want to add another 200-400/100 to your costs, depending on how you are playing.
What about leaving goons there? That's 2-4 goons that can be used elsewhere, like in your main army, a feint, harassment or whatever. Yet, they are stuck doing nothing, and may have to be moved elsewhere to defend a nat or expo, making their original goal now a feasible target.
The scout, being an air unit, combined with it's speed, if you choose to get it, can defend multiple areas more effectively than cannons and goons, and can even hunt down a shuttle, or dropship. Hell, you can even rush a scout against someone who plans to use a drop to expand as an opening.
Now we move on to the ground damage of the scout. A simple eight damage. Yikes. But hey, it does amazing air damage. Defend against drop harassment, and harass with that same unit? That sounds kind of like a mutalisk. Sniping off HT and harassing, although the mutalisk is slower than the scout once you upgrade speed. So we have a fast moving, anti-air unit capable of harassment. Even though the scouts' ground damage is meager, it's still an attack that forces your opponents attention.
Going on a tangent a small bit here, let's focus on harassment as Protoss, that requires mobility, otherwise drops. We have two reavers stocked up on some scarabs carried in a shuttle, sometimes a ricer shuttle; two HT's that can storm, sometimes accompanied by a zealot, escorted by a shuttle, sometimes a riced out one; maybe a lone DT, or a pair, dropped off somewhere to pick off some workers.
Costwise: robo, bay, shuttle, then the units themselves with an optional zealot.
Reavers: 200/200 + 150/100 + 200 + 200/100(2) + 75(2) = 1100/500
HT's: 200/200 + 150/200+ 50/150(2) + 200/200 + (100) = 650/900
DT: 200/200 + 150/200 + 125/100(2) = 475/600
Scout: 150/150 + 275/125 = 425/275
Basically, if you get to snipe a shuttle with one of these options in there with a scout, you just paid for the scout, and then some, maybe even another scout or two, or a handful of goons, zealots, or whatever. But what about the harassment a scout can do?
If you know you're about to get into a major battle, and you see an undefended min line, sneak the scout over there, pick off some probes, depending on how attentive and able the player is. You can force the player to defend all of his min lines, and even hit up a lone pylons for the easy score. Shit, you can even shoot at some zealots that are just out of some goons range or something... that would be really annoying if that kept happening to me, actually. I want to call the scout a mosquito hawk that goes after you too.
I gotta wrap this up for now, my ADD is kicking in and I'm losing my train of thought. Basically, why isn't the scout used more often in PvP, and even PvT?
Last edit: 2009-11-09 07:49:14 |
|
|
 sharkeyanti United States. November 08 2009 16:28. Posts 124 | Profile |
| In regards to PvP, it's not valuable enough. The shuttle is more important to support the army, and the dragoons are an actual viable force. One scout is not going to be able to snipe the shuttle as it will be too close to its force of dragoons on the ground. I guess if you knew your opponent was getting an early shuttle it could work, but even then you may as well get the versatility of dragoons. The multi-tasking requirement is also something I would question. |
| |
|
| ViruX New Zealand. November 08 2009 16:28. Posts 214 | Profile Blog |
| Have you seen how many probes a reaver could before a scout kills it. What if your opponent doesn't go for a shuttle harass, that means your're over a nexus worth of minerals wasted. |
|
|
| Always United States. November 08 2009 16:31. Posts 135 | Profile Blog |
I play Terran, and I based on my knowledge of PvT, the scout isn't used in it because the Stargates don't come until the Protoss can manage arb or carrier tech.
Although you mentioned some great possible uses for the scout, you have to consider that not all opponents will use air against you. If I go a 5-fact timing push, and you've spent minerals, gas, and food on a scout, what purpose will it have aside from annoying me? I will most likely have turrets in place to defend against dt/zealot drops or reaver harass, and then goliaths in my main army if I have an armory before I push out. I don't feel as if scout harass would be that effective. the scout loses further value if I don't get a starport until after a good 5 or 6 facts. If you're being attacked and pushed into the back of your base by tanks, vults, and a couple goliaths during a 110 food push (or sooner), I think you'd rather have 4 zealots than a scout.
what do you think dude?
|
| | "Do unto others 20% better than you would expect them to do unto you, to correct for subjective error." - Linus Pauling |
|
|
 cosiant Canada. November 08 2009 16:31. Posts 476 | Profile Blog |
| Well the scouts did help Bisu out once (baring humiliation) and someone else, Kal? |
| | Member of the "Fuck yeah, Canata!" committee! |
|
|
 doubleupgradeobbies!  Australia. November 08 2009 16:34. Posts 371 | Profile Blog |
The scout is also at the same level of tech as the sair, and the sair can actually chase down shuttles/dropships whereas the scout is ungodly slow without the speed upgrade and they just run the shuttle/dropship away.
In PvT there are just easier and more efficient ways to deal with dropship play, which puts the T economically behind if it fails anyway.
In PvP, your opponent will have goons, and if they get shuttle speed, they shuttle is actually alot more mobile than your scout, and a stargate doesn't normally come into your build very early, whereas they probably need the robo for obbies anyway. If they already went for reavers then it's pretty trivial for them to run their shuttle back to some goons, then get shuttle speed to deal with your slow ass scouts.Last edit: 2009-11-08 16:38:48 |
| | orbifold: PRO-TIP FROM SHUTTLE: Dragoons provide excellent mine detection by walking into them. |
|
|
 meeple Canada. November 08 2009 16:35. Posts 1519 | Profile Blog |
| A vigilant progamer would never allow a shuttle to be sniped with all those units inside. Also, the tech costs your associated with the units don't really count, since those units are going to be produced anyways, whereas alot of pvps don't even use starports. You're right that it could be useful to stave off the odd ht/dt harass, the same way a wraith is useful in tvp, but you can generally deal with the harass in other ways. And that 400 minerals can go towards an expansion. Having said that, I do wonder why pros don't do it occasionally to be safe, it would save alot of headache just being able to snipe the shuttle. Last edit: 2009-11-08 16:35:44 |
| | Into the fray my friends, may our feet be swift, our hands be sure, and our necks keep a firm grasp on our heads. |
|
|
| meeple Canada. November 08 2009 16:37. Posts 1519 | Profile Blog |
| actually I agree more with doubleupgradedobbies... if you're going through all that, why not just get a corsair... it would essentially do that same thing |
| | Into the fray my friends, may our feet be swift, our hands be sure, and our necks keep a firm grasp on our heads. |
|
|
| WheelOfTime United States. November 08 2009 16:44. Posts 43 | Profile Blog |
Okay let me just say Scouts CAN be VERY useful at times... playing on Destination PVP where there are so many angles for HT drops, often players just parks a shuttle with HTs/Zealot out of your vision/goon range. This essentially forces you to leave at least 3-4 goons at each expo JUST for defense. Nothing you can do about this shuttle/HT, and even with the goons there the player can always park an OBS above your nexuses and find another angle to storm you from.
1 scout takes care of this problem. Essentially adds 6 goons to your main army and saves you 20 or so probes. |
|
|
 Sinensis United States. November 08 2009 16:47. Posts 114 | Profile Blog |
On November 08 2009 16:31 cosiant wrote:
Well the scouts did help Bisu out once (baring humiliation) and someone else, Kal?
Can someone please link this VOD or tell me who he does this against/what map? |
|
|
 randombum United States. November 08 2009 16:49. Posts 1433 | Profile Blog |
IF your know they are going a Reaver/DT/HT drop into your main, and IF they will charge in no matter what and suicide his units (which would also die to 2 goons), and IF they suck so much they let a scout kill a shuttle full of units while the shuttle is faster, and IF they don't take that 425/275 resource advantage and just attack your army then its a good idea to get a scout.
But if they suck that bad you can probably kill them with pure probes.
The purpose you want to use the scout seems to be like: Please don't harrass my workers so I have a weaker army, instead I'll just make my army weaker without you doing anything at all.
|
|
|
| Aca United States. November 08 2009 16:56. Posts 143 | Profile |
| Yo, the cost in minerals for a dragoon is only 125! |
|
|
 AcrossFiveJulys United States. November 08 2009 16:57. Posts 1404 | Profile Blog |
On November 08 2009 16:15 Gnarly wrote:
Now we move on to the ground damage of the scout. A simple eight damage. Yikes. But hey, it does amazing air damage. Defend against drop harassment, and harass with that same unit? That sounds kind of like a mutalisk. Sniping off HT and harassing, although the mutalisk is slower than the scout once you upgrade speed. So we have a fast moving, anti-air unit capable of harassment. Even though the scouts' ground damage is meager, it's still an attack that forces your opponents attention.
yeah, just like mutalisks except they cost nearly 3x as much minerals, require 2x the build time, and you need to spend 500/350 to research speed upgrade. And they even have less air to ground attack... mutalisk does 9 damage + 2 bounces, but scout does 8 damage from dual weapons which means it will lose 2 damage for each armor their target has. also, you can't train them in batches like you can with mutas since the structure that builds them is expensive. Oh, and I might mention that they take full damage from every unit (because of their large size) except ghosts, while mutas take reduced damage from most units because of their small size.
i would address the rest of your points, but they are all horrible and it's obvious that your knowledge of the game is very limited. the scout is just a terrible unit. the only way they might be worth building is if they cost like 225/125 and they came with the speed upgrade by default. |
| | burn your wings and grow them back |
|
|
| meeple Canada. November 08 2009 17:00. Posts 1519 | Profile Blog |
| I would probably just get 3 goons and put them on the edge where you expect harass... they would take it down in 3 hits... |
| | Into the fray my friends, may our feet be swift, our hands be sure, and our necks keep a firm grasp on our heads. |
|
|
| doubleupgradeobbies! Australia. November 08 2009 17:11. Posts 371 | Profile Blog |
On November 08 2009 16:15 Gnarly wrote:
That sounds kind of like a mutalisk. Sniping off HT and harassing, although the mutalisk is slower than the scout once you upgrade speed. So we have a fast moving, anti-air unit capable of harassment. Even though the scouts' ground damage is meager, it's still an attack that forces your opponents attention.
I think this is the crux of the problem. You are by far overestimating the mobility of a scout.
Without the speed upgrade, the scout is MUCH slower than a mutalisk, has much more turning time, takes much longer to build, and can only be built 1 at a time.
The speed upgrade is done from the fleet beacon, and will cost you a ton. If you want it in any decent amount of time(which can't be done anyway cos it takes forever to build/research), you will die from having spent so much resources on units that are basically useless against goons head on.
Furthermore about the mobility. A slow scout, will not stop drops from a shuttle, at best it will kill a non-speed shuttle once it's dropped whatever it was dropping and is trying to run back.
With a speed shuttle, 1 scout will not be able to defend more than 1 expo, cos if they see your scout, they will just go to another expo and harass that, then run away before your scout can even get there.
Furthermore, harassing is pretty terrible too, it takes 6 hits to kill a single probe(it will regen some shield), keeping in mind the terrible ground attack speed scouts have, and picking off single pylons is laughable, make a game and time how long it takes for a single scout(or even a couple!) takes to kill a single pylon.
Finally:
That sounds kind of like a mutalisk
If zerg could only build 1 mutalisk at a time, and they normally ran them around in packs of 1 or 2, mutalisks would be terrible units too. And this is a unit that is by default faster, cheaper and does more ground damage(splash) than a scout.
|
| | orbifold: PRO-TIP FROM SHUTTLE: Dragoons provide excellent mine detection by walking into them. |
|
|
 Nevuk United States. November 08 2009 17:27. Posts 1753 | Profile Blog |
The problem with using them over goons to stop drops is that goons are more mobile than a non-speed scout.
Scouts are never used in pvp except vs like 1 base carriers, a la much on plasma, because they get owned so bad by any amount of goons. There really is no critical mass of scouts in pvp like there is in PvT or PvZ.
In PvT they do have some use, mostly against 2 fac builds, and also just totally prevent T from going air on island maps. One on one a scout can beat a battle cruiser most of the time.
In PvZ they probably have the most potential use, however they are much more difficult to micro than a corsair is, take longer to reach critical mass, and you would still need the first corsair to scout their base within a reasonable length of time.
also, this demonstrates the flaw in your logic :
What about leaving goons there? That's 2-4 goons that can be used elsewhere, like in your main army, a feint, harassment or whatever. Yet, they are stuck doing nothing, and may have to be moved elsewhere to defend a nat or expo, making their original goal now a feasible target.
One scout costs far, far, far more than 2-4 goons. Last edit: 2009-11-08 17:34:59 |
|
|
| Pieguy314 Canada. November 08 2009 17:31. Posts 207 | Profile |
| I think the only plausible matchup that scouts would be effective would be PvT. |
| | The Obama Brood needs change |
|
|
| numLoCK Canada. November 08 2009 17:35. Posts 279 | Profile Blog |
Scouts are incredibly viable against bad opponents.
Otherwise, not so much. |
|
|
| Nevuk United States. November 08 2009 17:38. Posts 1753 | Profile Blog |
On November 08 2009 17:31 Pieguy314 wrote:
I think the only plausible matchup that scouts would be effective would be PvT.
If you're a considerably better player than a Zerg, going scouts is very feasible and incredibly annoying. (Also if you have a large advantage it can work even if they aren't worse. There's a replay somewhere where a pro goes 2 hatch muta and does no damage, the P eventually builds 4 stargate scouts and the game lasts like 40 minutes. It's on blue storm.) |
|
|
| HaXXspetten Sweden. November 08 2009 18:08. Posts 164 | Profile Blog |
If you want to see how to use the scout; then check out:
ForGG vs Kal |
| | If it is worth doing, it is worth OVER-duing |
|
|
| | 1 2 3 4 Next All |
|
|
|
 |
|
      
|