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| neVern United States. March 02 2010 22:26. Posts 115 | Profile # |
| Greece shouldn't rely on any currency with the national bank. Look at US debt/inflation since the 1700s. There was virtually none until 1913, the Federal Reserve Act. Now the debt exceeds the money supply and inflation has increased over 800% since the 1940s. |
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| shin ken Germany. March 02 2010 22:30. Posts 242 | Profile Blog # |
I have doubts Greece will learn its lesson. It's a corrupt and backward oriented country and this mentality is spread throughout the whole population. Just visit Greece for some time. Everything in this country seems so wrong, from the broken infrastructure over the chauvinist and corrupt mentality to the horrible nature conservation. It's fucked up beyond all repair and not even in 20 years you could "fix" that country.
It would clearly be the best to just "ban" Greece from the EU, but it seems, that there is no politician who has the guts to do that so the Euro will be in fact in danger for a long time.Last edit: 2010-03-02 22:36:19 |
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| Velr Switzerland. March 02 2010 22:34. Posts 5092 | Profile Blog # |
A construct like the EU only makes sense if it is big. It has the goal to become much more than a trade union and I hope it will actually happen in my lifetime.
Maybe there are some countries in it that should not be in it (yet) but the *base*-size it had before the eastern-joining was not big enough to really make sense.
The final Goal of the EU as a whole is to compete with the USA, Russia, China (and so on) on basically all levels (except on the military because we are cowards and you guys are gun slinging nut jobs  )... You can't do that when you are small. The benefits of a full continent having one voice is pretty obvious, therefore size is needed. If the whole of Europe is saying FUCK YOU it's way more powerful than all the countries issuing their varying opinions on various topics (just look at the varying support of the Iraq war for instance)...
The Goal of the EU is to unite Europe... That does not happen/work if you only take the rich kids that did do pretty well on their own anyway. The possibilities of a friendly united Europe are very big.
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| myzael Poland. March 02 2010 22:38. Posts 565 | Profile Blog # |
On March 02 2010 08:25 Intr3pid wrote: No, but they have the monetary policy instruments at their disposal to react in a timely fashion, whereas the Euro-countries pretty much have their hands tied as of now.
Show nested quote +when you say eastern european does that include countries like Poland and Czechia?
Honestly, I wouldn't put them in the same category like France and Germany, UK Benelux etc. They are growing and fastly developping economies, which is good, but they got in too fast. I think it would have been better to really just accept already formed and well developped economies, but yeah now it's too late anyway. Btw Poland is a big receiver in the EU as I can remember, they are well of BECAUSE they are in the EU, they are not in the EU because they were doing well.
Poland is not such a big reciever afaik. Yes, we get a little bit more than we give, but not so much. The aforementioned development is not as great as it could have been, had we gotten better and less corrupt management/politicians. Yet, the development would be possible without EU help. I do not want to judge, would it be faster or slower than it is. |
| | HuK | MaNa | Naniwa | ToD | Tyler | SaSe | Tarson | IdrA | Nerchio | Sheth | TLO |
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| sushiman Sweden. March 02 2010 22:41. Posts 2481 | Profile # |
Greece shouldn't have been admitted into the union in the first place, and absolutely not into the monetary union. The same goes for several other balkan and mediterranean nations - way too corrupt and economically unstable.
The EU for some reason went into some frenzy admitting everyone and their neighbour to join the union, with obvious problem to follow. Frankly I'd prefer a northern and southern union, I'm tired of Sweden being the nation having the highest per capita contribution to the union, continuously funneling tons of money into tomato farmers and corrupt officials in southern Europe without really getting anything in return from them. |
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| Fwmeh March 02 2010 22:46. Posts 817 | Profile # |
On March 02 2010 22:25 ShroomyD wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 02 2010 22:04 Fwmeh wrote:
Logic =/= Science
Science produce falsifiable propositions. That is THE most important benchmark.
I dislike many things about this thread, but most of all where people try to use science where it is not applicable.
Scientific method is the only method applicable in science?
It is the only way to apply science =P
To enjoy the legitimacy associated by disciplines of science, you must obey its fundamental rules.
The claim that an "opinion" is "self-evident" and it is supported by science is something everyone need to be extremely cautious against, because most often it is a false claim.
More on topic, I myself doubt that the Euro will be allowed to die. The cost for saving it is still unknown however, but when things get big enough no price seem too big, as long as someone else pay it. I would not like to live in the PIIGS coutries, myself. |
| | I have to go to bot-lane where the filthy AD-carries live. |
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| Not_A_Notion Ireland. March 02 2010 23:07. Posts 441 | Profile # |
On March 02 2010 22:46 Fwmeh wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 02 2010 22:25 ShroomyD wrote:
On March 02 2010 22:04 Fwmeh wrote:
Logic =/= Science
Science produce falsifiable propositions. That is THE most important benchmark.
I dislike many things about this thread, but most of all where people try to use science where it is not applicable.
Scientific method is the only method applicable in science?
It is the only way to apply science =P To enjoy the legitimacy associated by disciplines of science, you must obey its fundamental rules. The claim that an "opinion" is "self-evident" and it is supported by science is something everyone need to be extremely cautious against, because most often it is a false claim. More on topic, I myself doubt that the Euro will be allowed to die. The cost for saving it is still unknown however, but when things get big enough no price seem too big, as long as someone else pay it. I would not like to live in the PIIGS coutries, myself.
Perhaps including Italy in PIIGS is a tad unfair?
If I may interject with my own experience.
M'eh it's not too bad, just back where we were in the early 90's in terms of unemployment rate, or 1988 in terms of fiscal reform.
European social welfare systems are pretty generous, here an unemployed 25 year old gets paid €196 a week if they don't have a child and €227 if they have one kid. Though this may be cut up to 5% next year, but given deflation of bout -5% this doesn't change the real outlay.
So it's not like people are starving or anything, these are very much first world problems.
On-topic
I don't think the Euro will break up for quite a while, as in several years. Of course Greece never met the criteria and should never have been let, everyone knew that at the time but I don't think it will destroy the Euro, just weaken it substantially, but this is all relative, the Euro was excessively strong before this damaging exports (my family are farmers, so a weak currency is always preferable).
As long as the Euro doesn't break up, which would cause all sorts of shit and implicit trade barriers, then this thing is, from our point of view a very useful event toi happen, trade-wise
+ Show Spoiler +
Case in point, yields on our sovereign debt have fallen secularly and are re-converging, albeit at a slow rate, with German Bunds with likely convergence to occur in 3 years or so, assuming the same policy course is taken and not some keynesian nonsense like they are doing in the UK.
Last edit: 2010-03-02 23:09:06 |
| | A worrying lack of anvils |
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 Rothbardian United States. March 02 2010 23:18. Posts 497 | Profile # |
On March 02 2010 22:38 myzael wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 02 2010 08:25 Intr3pid wrote:
There is no evidence that the UK and Sweden do fare any better
No, but they have the monetary policy instruments at their disposal to react in a timely fashion, whereas the Euro-countries pretty much have their hands tied as of now.
when you say eastern european does that include countries like Poland and Czechia?
Honestly, I wouldn't put them in the same category like France and Germany, UK Benelux etc. They are growing and fastly developping economies, which is good, but they got in too fast. I think it would have been better to really just accept already formed and well developped economies, but yeah now it's too late anyway. Btw Poland is a big receiver in the EU as I can remember, they are well of BECAUSE they are in the EU, they are not in the EU because they were doing well.
Poland is not such a big reciever afaik. Yes, we get a little bit more than we give, but not so much. The aforementioned development is not as great as it could have been, had we gotten better and less corrupt management/politicians. Yet, the development would be possible without EU help. I do not want to judge, would it be faster or slower than it is.
This is utopian. Every country is riddled with corrupt politicians. The system is corrupting. Identify the cause, not the symptom. |
| | "A tax-supported, compulsory educational system is the complete model of the totalitarian state." - Isabel Paterson <3 |
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| Rothbardian United States. March 02 2010 23:26. Posts 497 | Profile # |
On March 02 2010 22:46 Fwmeh wrote:
Show nested quote +On March 02 2010 22:25 ShroomyD wrote:
On March 02 2010 22:04 Fwmeh wrote:
Logic =/= Science
Science produce falsifiable propositions. That is THE most important benchmark.
I dislike many things about this thread, but most of all where people try to use science where it is not applicable.
Scientific method is the only method applicable in science?
It is the only way to apply science =P To enjoy the legitimacy associated by disciplines of science, you must obey its fundamental rules. The claim that an "opinion" is "self-evident" and it is supported by science is something everyone need to be extremely cautious against, because most often it is a false claim. More on topic, I myself doubt that the Euro will be allowed to die. The cost for saving it is still unknown however, but when things get big enough no price seem too big, as long as someone else pay it. I would not like to live in the PIIGS coutries, myself.
Praxeology and a priorism is not "opinion". Logic is demonstrable. Take for instance the central axiom of Austrianism. Human Action.
Elaborated upon -- Praxeology is founded upon the central axiom that individual human beings act, that is, on the primordial fact that individuals engage in conscious actions toward chosen goals. -- This concept of action contrasts to purely reflexive, or knee-jerk, behavior which is not directed towards goals. The praxeological method spins out by verbal deduction the logical implications of that primordial fact. In short, praxeological economics is the structure of logical implications of the fact that individuals act. This structure is built on the fundamental axiom of action, and has a few subsidiary axioms, such as that individuals vary and that human beings regard leisure as a valuable good. Any skeptic about deducing from such a simple base an entire system of economics, I refer to Mises's Human Action. Furthermore, since praxeology begins with a true axiom, A, all the propositions that can be deduced from this axiom must also be true. For if A implies B, and A is true, then B must also be true.
http://mises.org/rothbard/praxeology.pdf
I believe its pretty self-evident that humans act, and act purposefully. Don't you? Anyways, if that's off-topic, sorry. In other news. I eagerly await to see how this will play out even though the ramifications to which I espouse are very, very horrible for the world writ large. Perhaps we will learn our lesson? Then again, we haven't yet, but still I hold out hope!Last edit: 2010-03-02 23:33:02 |
| | "A tax-supported, compulsory educational system is the complete model of the totalitarian state." - Isabel Paterson <3 |
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 Liquid`Jinro Sweden. March 02 2010 23:27. Posts 32587 | Profile Blog # |
So, sorry for the slightly off-topic post but, if I have a decent amount of money tied up in euros, is there any point in trying to exchange them into something else... or would that be overreacting?
I hate currencies fluctuating :[ Especially since I know nothing about this stuff.Last edit: 2010-03-02 23:27:35 |
| | tell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n Formerly FrozenArbiter |
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| Intr3pid Switzerland. March 02 2010 23:46. Posts 334 | Profile Blog # |
Tied in what kind of financial instruments?
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| Rothbardian United States. March 02 2010 23:56. Posts 497 | Profile # |
On March 02 2010 23:27 FrozenArbiter wrote:
So, sorry for the slightly off-topic post but, if I have a decent amount of money tied up in euros, is there any point in trying to exchange them into something else... or would that be overreacting?
I hate currencies fluctuating :[ Especially since I know nothing about this stuff.
I would listen to Jim Rogers and Marc Faber, and say, gold, silver, and agriculture will be quite nice to hold on to for some time. Agriculture is nice to see a good investment return in the foreseeable future, and gold/silver to keep your wealth intact. There is no strong currency. Every fiat currency has extraodonarily weak fundamentals to the point of not even wanting to hold one Euro, one Dollar, or one Yen. Take this advice as you will.Last edit: 2010-03-02 23:57:19 |
| | "A tax-supported, compulsory educational system is the complete model of the totalitarian state." - Isabel Paterson <3 |
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| eStoniaNBoY Switzerland. March 03 2010 00:36. Posts 439 | Profile # |
| From my expierence the cost/fees of moving the money around will be higher than just letting it be. It will even out. |
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| endy China. March 03 2010 01:11. Posts 6095 | Profile Blog # |
| I hope so, my poker bankroll is in US dollars. |
| | ★ SK Telecom T1 ★ MSL Forever ★ SonicBJ is my hero ★ Kim Taek Yong ♥ I took a photo with Bisu before it was mainstream | |
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| baal March 04 2010 00:44. Posts 10486 | Profile # |
On March 02 2010 23:27 FrozenArbiter wrote:
So, sorry for the slightly off-topic post but, if I have a decent amount of money tied up in euros, is there any point in trying to exchange them into something else... or would that be overreacting?
I hate currencies fluctuating :[ Especially since I know nothing about this stuff.
sell, buy gold. |
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| Groslouser France. March 04 2010 00:46. Posts 337 | Profile Blog # |
I really doubt european countries would allow the euro to die. However one might wonder what the eu government might gain with all this.
I mean EU can put pressure on countries, after that they can bitch about it, try to slow down the process but in the end eu will win. In france we've often got *little* disagreement with the eu, in the end we always lose, you can look at our electricity/postal/phone policy: they used to be state company but EU kicked our government ass and now we have to privatize them.
So what would happen if the EU says "ok, we're going to help you out of this mess, but you're going to do what we say cuz we're bored of you doing shit". I bet it won't happen like that, it would create a first that no country could accept (especially us) however EU could use Greece as a scapegoat to warn spain and co.
Greece would have to obey... which would be a more severe interference in a country policy than anything the EU has already done.
So euro should not fall with just this, but the aftermath might be interesting to see/study; there is room for smart politicians to do something fancy here.
EDIT: just finished reading this: http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article7047939.ece
Looks like someone here is going to have to crush down some riotsLast edit: 2010-03-04 01:05:25 |
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| Rothbardian United States. March 04 2010 03:38. Posts 497 | Profile # |
On March 04 2010 00:46 Groslouser wrote:I really doubt european countries would allow the euro to die. However one might wonder what the eu government might gain with all this. I mean EU can put pressure on countries, after that they can bitch about it, try to slow down the process but in the end eu will win. In france we've often got *little* disagreement with the eu, in the end we always lose, you can look at our electricity/postal/phone policy: they used to be state company but EU kicked our government ass and now we have to privatize them. So what would happen if the EU says "ok, we're going to help you out of this mess, but you're going to do what we say cuz we're bored of you doing shit". I bet it won't happen like that, it would create a first that no country could accept (especially us) however EU could use Greece as a scapegoat to warn spain and co. Greece would have to obey... which would be a more severe interference in a country policy than anything the EU has already done. So euro should not fall with just this, but the aftermath might be interesting to see/study; there is room for smart politicians to do something fancy here. EDIT: just finished reading this: http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article7047939.eceLooks like someone here is going to have to crush down some riots
I wouldn't want to see what happens with Greece. Their citizens are quite feisty. Look what they did last christmas when that young boy was killed.
I find it funny Europeans are infatuated with the EU, when not sixty years ago they loved their sovereignty. Instead of a war that conquered these countries, they voluntarily were arm-twisted into handing them over to one central authority without a fight. Quite hilarious to behold actually. Last edit: 2010-03-04 03:39:50 |
| | "A tax-supported, compulsory educational system is the complete model of the totalitarian state." - Isabel Paterson <3 |
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| Silvanel Poland. March 04 2010 04:10. Posts 1757 | Profile Blog # |
| There is nothing hilarious here. Well maybe with exception of Your comparison of EU to Third Reich. |
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| Rothbardian United States. March 04 2010 04:37. Posts 497 | Profile # |
On March 04 2010 04:10 Silvanel wrote:
There is nothing hilarious here. Well maybe with exception of Your comparison of EU to Third Reich.
The goal is the same. One central European authority. It just goes to show if you want to take over countries don't go to war, just do it politically. Haha. |
| | "A tax-supported, compulsory educational system is the complete model of the totalitarian state." - Isabel Paterson <3 |
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| nothingbutzerg Greece. March 04 2010 04:40. Posts 626 | Profile # |
As shown in the case of Iraq and Afghanistan?   |
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