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 FourFace March 10 2012 12:32. Posts 701 | Profile Blog # |
It might seem twisted but I agree with everything that has been said here with regards to my participation in the game except the part that my posts weren't funny. I said it then and there and I'll say it again here and now:
it was my intention to make every mistake I could think of, or that which is referred to as "mistake" or counterproductive in the guides, at least once before Day 1 ends as a form of protest.. or to attract attention on the fact that the game is changing once you release a guide on how to play it. I didn't just say that because I wanted DoYouHas to back off.. he practically passed me the ball, put me into the spotlight so I could act my act and get this message across.
As for .. dum dum duuuum
The rickroll
The Devil is in the detail. To understand why I did it you need to look at the way I said it. I said I'm getting really bad scum vibe from this #(link to Rick) and note that in the edited post (and I was counting on the fact that it would get restored) I was parodying phagga for saying stuff like he isn't getting a scum vibe from me without actually saying wtf he was trying to say.
My major critique for this particular game was that there was so much fing around by people who seemed town to me that the difference couldn't be made out from the fing around of those who seemed scum to me. And that didn't seem like it was going to change throughout the entire game so my mind told me this is crazy .. and you always need to adapt to your circumstances in order to deal with them, so I acted crazily, sort of like Hamlet.
I truly believe that once a guide is out there and you're playing a newbie game.. the players either abide to it, play by the book or they do the opposite for whatever reason (including not having read the guide). The catch is there is no way of telling because it could be a mafia trying to act town or it could be a newbie townie all the same. So what did I do .. I distinguished my posts from everybody elses indicating that I understand the problem and that I'm trying to deal with it.. like saying stick with me I got a plan.
So again what did I do particularly: I told everybody that I've read the guide and that I'm voluntarily not playing by it. But actually I was doing that which helps most, confirming my townieness. Even the guide on vanilla town says you should try to confirm that you are town by being useful and that is in fact the only thing I can agree with regardless of whether you've read the guide or not, whether you're scum in disguise or noob.. the universal tactic for vanilla town is to be useful. I did that and was going to do it further by saying exactly what is going on with the way I post, instead of just blindly pulling out cases and accusing lurkers and whatnot, without even considering the possibility that especially on Day1 anyone can say everything regardless. That.. was my plan, to surprise the mafia with fast paced psychological problem-reaction on every inefficient and flawed even outdated concept of a strategy to win the game for town in a newbie game.
There's hardly any meta, there are townies who can't lock in to your style of play and recognize when you have a lead on something.. I think newbie games are way more demanding and complex than games with established players which brings me back to the guide ..
On February 27 2012 07:42 FourFace wrote:
Did you ever think of the possibility that once a bunch of guides are released that try to lecture you about how to spot suspicious behavior in a game you have to calculate for the fact that people are going to behave differently because of those guides. What's next, writing a guide about how to play in games where players have read the guides?
.
TLDR: I wanted people to know that this is an impossible situation and if you think you did a good job in a game like this because you played by the book you are wrong. If you do this you clearly didn't understand the variables popping into existence when playing with noobs and the effect of the presence of a bible. And this mistake will haunt you throughout your entire mafia career. Nobody seemed to understand this so I got pissed and started trolling (with a reason, motivation and purpose but it's still trolling nonetheless). I accept my punishment
End of story |
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| VisceraEyes United States. March 10 2012 12:45. Posts 9718 | Profile Blog # |
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 10 2012 12:32 FourFace wrote:It might seem twisted but I agree with everything that has been said here with regards to my participation in the game except the part that my posts weren't funny. I said it then and there and I'll say it again here and now: it was my intention to make every mistake I could think of, or that which is referred to as "mistake" or counterproductive in the guides, at least once before Day 1 ends as a form of protest.. or to attract attention on the fact that the game is changing once you release a guide on how to play it. I didn't just say that because I wanted DoYouHas to back off.. he practically passed me the ball, put me into the spotlight so I could act my act and get this message across. As for .. dum dum duuuum The rickrollThe Devil is in the detail. To understand why I did it you need to look at the way I said it. I said I'm getting really bad scum vibe from this #(link to Rick) and note that in the edited post (and I was counting on the fact that it would get restored) I was parodying phagga for saying stuff like he isn't getting a scum vibe from me without actually saying wtf he was trying to say. My major critique for this particular game was that there was so much fing around by people who seemed town to me that the difference couldn't be made out from the fing around of those who seemed scum to me. And that didn't seem like it was going to change throughout the entire game so my mind told me this is crazy .. and you always need to adapt to your circumstances in order to deal with them, so I acted crazily, sort of like Hamlet. I truly believe that once a guide is out there and you're playing a newbie game.. the players either abide to it, play by the book or they do the opposite for whatever reason (including not having read the guide). The catch is there is no way of telling because it could be a mafia trying to act town or it could be a newbie townie all the same. So what did I do .. I distinguished my posts from everybody elses indicating that I understand the problem and that I'm trying to deal with it.. like saying stick with me I got a plan. So again what did I do particularly: I told everybody that I've read the guide and that I'm voluntarily not playing by it. But actually I was doing that which helps most, confirming my townieness. Even the guide on vanilla town says you should try to confirm that you are town by being useful and that is in fact the only thing I can agree with regardless of whether you've read the guide or not, whether you're scum in disguise or noob.. the universal tactic for vanilla town is to be useful. I did that and was going to do it further by saying exactly what is going on with the way I post, instead of just blindly pulling out cases and accusing lurkers and whatnot, without even considering the possibility that especially on Day1 anyone can say everything regardless. That.. was my plan, to surprise the mafia with fast paced psychological problem-reaction on every inefficient and flawed even outdated concept of a strategy to win the game for town in a newbie game. There's hardly any meta, there are townies who can't lock in to your style of play and recognize when you have a lead on something.. I think newbie games are way more demanding and complex than games with established players which brings me back to the guide ..
Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 07:42 FourFace wrote:
Did you ever think of the possibility that once a bunch of guides are released that try to lecture you about how to spot suspicious behavior in a game you have to calculate for the fact that people are going to behave differently because of those guides. What's next, writing a guide about how to play in games where players have read the guides?
. TLDR: I wanted people to know that this is an impossible situation and if you think you did a good job in a game like this because you played by the book you are wrong. If you do this you clearly didn't understand the variables popping into existence when playing with noobs and the effect of the presence of a bible. And this mistake will haunt you throughout your entire mafia career. Nobody seemed to understand this so I got pissed and started trolling (with a reason, motivation and purpose but it's still trolling nonetheless). I accept my punishment End of story
You missed the entire point of the guide, which is not surprising because you admitted to not reading it.
The guide doesn't give you step-by-step instructions on how to find scum - no such thing exists. The guide exists to give you an understanding of what constitutes suspicious behavior and why, so that you can use that knowledge and apply it in-game to HELP YOU find scum, not find scum for you.
If you want to see 'the guide' in an actual real life scenario, you should go read through L. That game was a thorough trouncing for scum, and it was because people who wrote the guide you're trying to discredit utilized some of the tactics CONTAINED INSIDE THAT GUIDE to find the scum and nail the scum.
I see you're interested in putting thought into the game, and for that I applaud you. Next game however, don't ruin the game for others because you don't agree with the way they're learning to play the game. |
| | Come on and give it to me. Come on and die. ****TL MAFIA LI - NEVER FORGET**** |
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| FourFace March 10 2012 13:09. Posts 701 | Profile Blog # |
On March 10 2012 12:45 VisceraEyes wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
On March 10 2012 12:32 FourFace wrote:It might seem twisted but I agree with everything that has been said here with regards to my participation in the game except the part that my posts weren't funny. I said it then and there and I'll say it again here and now: it was my intention to make every mistake I could think of, or that which is referred to as "mistake" or counterproductive in the guides, at least once before Day 1 ends as a form of protest.. or to attract attention on the fact that the game is changing once you release a guide on how to play it. I didn't just say that because I wanted DoYouHas to back off.. he practically passed me the ball, put me into the spotlight so I could act my act and get this message across. As for .. dum dum duuuum The rickrollThe Devil is in the detail. To understand why I did it you need to look at the way I said it. I said I'm getting really bad scum vibe from this #(link to Rick) and note that in the edited post (and I was counting on the fact that it would get restored) I was parodying phagga for saying stuff like he isn't getting a scum vibe from me without actually saying wtf he was trying to say. My major critique for this particular game was that there was so much fing around by people who seemed town to me that the difference couldn't be made out from the fing around of those who seemed scum to me. And that didn't seem like it was going to change throughout the entire game so my mind told me this is crazy .. and you always need to adapt to your circumstances in order to deal with them, so I acted crazily, sort of like Hamlet. I truly believe that once a guide is out there and you're playing a newbie game.. the players either abide to it, play by the book or they do the opposite for whatever reason (including not having read the guide). The catch is there is no way of telling because it could be a mafia trying to act town or it could be a newbie townie all the same. So what did I do .. I distinguished my posts from everybody elses indicating that I understand the problem and that I'm trying to deal with it.. like saying stick with me I got a plan. So again what did I do particularly: I told everybody that I've read the guide and that I'm voluntarily not playing by it. But actually I was doing that which helps most, confirming my townieness. Even the guide on vanilla town says you should try to confirm that you are town by being useful and that is in fact the only thing I can agree with regardless of whether you've read the guide or not, whether you're scum in disguise or noob.. the universal tactic for vanilla town is to be useful. I did that and was going to do it further by saying exactly what is going on with the way I post, instead of just blindly pulling out cases and accusing lurkers and whatnot, without even considering the possibility that especially on Day1 anyone can say everything regardless. That.. was my plan, to surprise the mafia with fast paced psychological problem-reaction on every inefficient and flawed even outdated concept of a strategy to win the game for town in a newbie game. There's hardly any meta, there are townies who can't lock in to your style of play and recognize when you have a lead on something.. I think newbie games are way more demanding and complex than games with established players which brings me back to the guide ..
Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 07:42 FourFace wrote:
Did you ever think of the possibility that once a bunch of guides are released that try to lecture you about how to spot suspicious behavior in a game you have to calculate for the fact that people are going to behave differently because of those guides. What's next, writing a guide about how to play in games where players have read the guides?
. TLDR: I wanted people to know that this is an impossible situation and if you think you did a good job in a game like this because you played by the book you are wrong. If you do this you clearly didn't understand the variables popping into existence when playing with noobs and the effect of the presence of a bible. And this mistake will haunt you throughout your entire mafia career. Nobody seemed to understand this so I got pissed and started trolling (with a reason, motivation and purpose but it's still trolling nonetheless). I accept my punishment End of story
You missed the entire point of the guide, which is not surprising because you admitted to not reading it. The guide doesn't give you step-by-step instructions on how to find scum - no such thing exists. The guide exists to give you an understanding of what constitutes suspicious behavior and why, so that you can use that knowledge and apply it in-game to HELP YOU find scum, not find scum for you. If you want to see 'the guide' in an actual real life scenario, you should go read through L. That game was a thorough trouncing for scum, and it was because people who wrote the guide you're trying to discredit utilized some of the tactics CONTAINED INSIDE THAT GUIDE to find the scum and nail the scum. I see you're interested in putting thought into the game, and for that I applaud you. Next game however, don't ruin the game for others because you don't agree with the way they're learning to play the game.
Absurd, I've read the general guide that I'm particularly referring to and read through other advanced guides and games and filters of players in games. I'm not trying to discredit anyone, The guides would be perfect for a newbie game where people haven't read that particular guide and perfect as well for advanced games with everybody having read the guide + additional experience. But here it was a mixed situation, players were either noobs, talented or quick learners, and they were either mafia or town AND they have either read the guides or not. This is like an equation with 3 variables that you cannot solve by analyzing only the variable about either mafia or town. You need sincerity, people claiming the other two variables.. even the fourth one which is if they are going to go by the guide or not(more or less .. nobody said it's a step-by-step instruction where did you get that from, I definitely didn't say anything like that.)
Also please stop saying newbie games are about learning the game .. it's condescending. I came here to play the game.
As an epilogue for those of you who got at least 70% of the piece of mind that I've invested in this discussion.
This is where it gets creepily insane
We're no strangers to love - We know the win conditions and read the guides
You know the rules and so do I - We know how the guides say we should try to spot scumslips
A full commitment's what I'm thinking of - We can't confirm that we are townies like this though, we need trust and sincerity. Call out each inconsistency and flaw of the game dynamic so we can find out what matters while confusing mafia at the same time. We need to win this by thinking not lucky guesses, improvising not standard headnodding and bs
You wouldn't get this from any other guy - The unconventional way is the only way... let's turn this game upside down for now
Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down
Never gonna run around and desert you
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye
Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you
(Starting from night 1 I'll play by the book)
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 Ver United States. March 10 2012 13:15. Posts 1881 | Profile # | |
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| vaderseven United States. March 10 2012 13:17. Posts 2204 | Profile # |
Did... did I just get rickrolled by someone defending a rickroll use but in a way that makes me not mad?
+1 point.
Your explanation is decent btw. |
| | ♥TL Mafia Game, check us out and play with us in the TL Mafia section! / If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate. -Zapp B. | |
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| Navillus United States. March 10 2012 13:46. Posts 1120 | Profile # |
That explanation was silly, there aren't extra variables in newbie games, every game has a wide range of players from the really shitty to the super-awesome, also I think fourfaces is basing way too much of how he's acting and his arguments about like discrediting the guides in that situation or pointing out a flaw with them or something when most people AFAIK don't actively follow everything the guides say, I've read them, I think a lot of people have but I couldn't tell you one specific point they make. Basically I don't understand why fourfaces had to or believed he had to act the way he did and what this discussion has to do with anything.
Also
On March 10 2012 13:15 Ver wrote:
I'm very confused.
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| | "TL gives excellent advice 99% of the time. The problem is no one listens to it." -Plexa |
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| RebirthOfLeGenD USA. March 10 2012 14:10. Posts 5342 | Profile Blog # |
| I'd agree with Palmar, you should only ban him for the editing if you think that warrants the ban. When we let shit like old Kurumi and his TF2 memes be okay and basically Chezinu every game not actually playing to his win condition and spamming, how can we justify punishing someone else for doing the same shit? Although I didn't read his filter, but either way I think it creates a very blurry line. One of the problems we discussed with the banlist Qatol is that too much was being left in the hands of the host which means unduly harsh punishments were given by some hosts for stuff other hosts would let fly which is why we have these discussions about moderation. If you want to be really strict about replacing, etc in your game I think that is fine if you are trying to foster some learning environment but trying to punish someone unduly off of rules that aren't enforced in such a way is a bit unfair and sets a double standard for some players. |
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| GMarshal United States. March 11 2012 00:26. Posts 20828 | Profile Blog # |
Are we done arguing now? Either way, no one has really argued anything against the main argument of the ban, which is that he edited out heavily game relevant information, and both the hosts and FF have agreed to the two week ban, so I don't see a major debate against it. Plus half his ban has about expired at this point :-P
this stands. PM me if you have any major complaints.
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| | "life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery" The measure of a terrible day is when you go to bed thinking "man, I wish the zombie apocalypse would start already" | |
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| Coagulation United States. March 11 2012 07:51. Posts 7561 | Profile Blog # |
I completely disagree with everything qatol said.
Also can we update the ban list considering yall making me sit the shit out would be nice if you aknowledged It when I do.
Im sitting out storm mafia now. arkham mafia is long over and no update.Last edit: 2012-03-11 07:52:18 |
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 flamewheel HANG KANG. March 12 2012 12:32. Posts 21503 | Profile Blog # |
| I'm going to update it tonight after I sort through the pile of work I have to immediately do. I'm sorry for being so inattentive. |
| | Clouds are making way for me. | |
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| Kurumi Poland. March 14 2012 06:09. Posts 5139 | Profile Blog # |
MrZentor said he is sitting out my game. Since my game does not follow the banlist, does it count? He could sit out other games meanwhile so I think it'd be unfair not to count it when it ends. I told him to ask the banlist admins but I think he haven't, although he brought up the quote from this thread saying that You could sit out any game of choice unless host said otherwise.
TL;DR
MrZentor is sitting out my game which is close to completion, since it's no-banlist game, should his sit-out be counted?
I think yes based on the time spent idle in the meantime. |
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| flamewheel HANG KANG. March 14 2012 11:09. Posts 21503 | Profile Blog # |
xsksc sat out Storm Mafia
TKHawkins receives an inactivity ban in SNMMVII
Lyter sat out Newbie Mini Mafia V
Chaos13 receives an inactivity ban in Resistance 2
Jayme is sitting out Jubjub Mafia
Fourface receives behavior ban in Newbie Mini Mafia IV
igabod receives second inactivity ban for Newbie Mini Mafia IV
Erandorr is sitting out JubJub Mafia
On March 14 2012 06:09 Kurumi wrote:
MrZentor said he is sitting out my game. Since my game does not follow the banlist, does it count? He could sit out other games meanwhile so I think it'd be unfair not to count it when it ends. I told him to ask the banlist admins but I think he haven't, although he brought up the quote from this thread saying that You could sit out any game of choice unless host said otherwise.
TL;DR
MrZentor is sitting out my game which is close to completion, since it's no-banlist game, should his sit-out be counted?
I think yes based on the time spent idle in the meantime.
Yeah your Kaller game doesn't count. I'll let GMarshal make or officiate the decision. |
| | Clouds are making way for me. | |
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| Mr. Wiggles Canada. March 14 2012 11:14. Posts 4685 | Profile Blog # |
| I think my game started after, and ended before, Kaller Game, if you want to transfer it. I forget, can you still sit out minis? |
| | "Dulce et decorum est pro Aiur mori" -Zealot | TL Mafia is the best sub-forum around, no lie! |
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| flamewheel HANG KANG. March 14 2012 11:15. Posts 21503 | Profile Blog # |
Yeah I've allowed minis in the past so yes.
Oh I'm a horse again.Last edit: 2012-03-14 11:15:17 |
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| xsksc United Kingdom. March 14 2012 20:42. Posts 1028 | Profile Blog # |
| Can I sign up for games now that I've sat out a game? |
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| Coagulation United States. March 14 2012 21:33. Posts 7561 | Profile Blog # | |
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| flamewheel HANG KANG. March 15 2012 20:02. Posts 21503 | Profile Blog # |
On March 14 2012 20:42 xsksc wrote:
Can I sign up for games now that I've sat out a game?
yep |
| | Clouds are making way for me. | |
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| MrZentor United States. March 17 2012 05:55. Posts 1541 | Profile # |
In retrospect, I really should have asked if the Kaller game counted, but considering that I did wait the three weeks and it has been three months since the game for which I was banned occurred, I think it would be fair if I were to be taken off the ban list.
I thought the Kaller game counted, because the first post in this thread says the following: "You may sit out any game which is hosted on this forum unless the host of that game says otherwise (which usually happens in games which are over very quickly)."
I understand if you want me to sit out another game before I am taken off the ban list, but I just need an answer on whether I have to sit out another game or not.
Thanks.Last edit: 2012-03-17 12:28:22 |
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| Kurumi Poland. March 17 2012 08:32. Posts 5139 | Profile Blog # |
On March 17 2012 05:55 MrZentor wrote:
In retrospect, I really should have asked if the Kaller game counted, but considering that I did wait the three weeks and it has been three months since the game for which I was banned occurred, I think it would be fair if I were to be taken off the ban list.
I understand if you want me to sit out another game before I am taken off the ban list, but I just need an answer on whether I have to sit out another game or not.
Thanks.
Yeah guys, please let him. He could've sitted out other game in the meantime. I see nothing wrong in lifting the ban after Kaller. |
| | I work alone. // Visit TL Mafia subforum! |
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| Coagulation United States. March 17 2012 14:11. Posts 7561 | Profile Blog # |
can you update the list to reflect me sitting out storm mafia plz.
you only credited me for BCs game....Last edit: 2012-03-17 14:12:49 |
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