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Blizzard to cease negotiations with KeSPA - Page 13

Forum Index > Brood War 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 All
 
 Senx   Sweden. April 25 2010 23:19. Posts 5019
Profile Blog # 
Hate KeSPA all you want for their terrible decisions and what not, but in the end, they were the organization that pretty much created the pro scene and helped SC:BW live for many more years than it originally would have.

With them out of the picture for SC2, i'm not exactly optimistic about any sort of pro scene for SC2.

One can still hope though, right?
"trash micro but win - its marine" MC commentary during HSC 4
Old Post

 
 Shizuru~   Malaysia. April 25 2010 23:22. Posts 1627
Profile Blog # 

On April 25 2010 17:34 Milkis wrote:
Sounds like I was quite correct regarding Blizzard being unreasonable.

Here's a pretty good article that summarizes the terms that KeSPA and Blizzard was dealing with. It's quite old, but I imagine the situation hasn't changed at all.

http://www.thegames.co.kr/main/newsview.php?category=201&subcategory=1&id=142824

Key points

>>블리자드의 배틀넷 통합계정 약관 가운데 e스포츠와 관련해 쟁점이 되고 있는 조항은 제 7조와 14조의 내용들이다.

The articles in the Blizzard's BattleNet Terms of Agreement that has become a controversial point is the 7th and the 14th articles

>>블리자드는 7조에서 게임 내의 대화 내용, 유저의 캐릭터 프로필까지 블리자드의 소유로 규정하고 이와 관련해 블리자드의 동의 없이는 어떤 2차 저작물도 제작할 수 없다고 규정하고 있다.

Blizzard, in the 7th article, states that conversations within the game, to even user's characters profiles are the properties of Blizzard and without the consent of Blizzard, no one is allowed to create any secondary creation using them.

>>7조 1항에 따르면 유저들은 블리자드가 만든 경기 대회 규칙 또는 팬 정책으로 정한 경우를 제외하고는 게임 또는 서비스를 기반으로 한 어떠한 저작물도 만들지 못한다

The 7th article 1st term states that, excluding Blizzard's contest/tournament rules, or other fan policies, users are not allowed to use the game or the service to create any sort of product.

>>블리자드는 또 14조 4항을 통해 한국 e스포츠계와 협상해 온 중계권 문제도 정리해 놓았다. 이 조항에서 블리자드는 ‘방송, 전자 통신을 통한 일반 대중과의 통신, 전시, 수행, 컴퓨터 메모리로의 접속, 사용 및 이용할 권리’ 등을 자사가 소유한다고 밝히고 있다.

Blizzard also used the 14th article 4th term to state their opinion on publishing rights that they were discussing with KeSPA. This term states that Blizzard owns the right to publish and use anything related to SC2. (lazy translation near the end but it's 3:19 AM!)

>>이밖에 유저가 콘텐츠에 대해 가질 수 있는 모든 저작인격권을 포기할 것을 요구하고 있다. 이들 조항을 적용하면 ‘스타2’를 이용해 대회를 열거나 방송중계를 하는 것 모두 블리자드의 허락을 받지 않으면 불가능하게 된다.

Other than these terms, Blizzard also demands that users need to abandon any authorship of anything regarding the contents. If these terms are applied, then blizzard's permission will be needed to hold a contest/tournament or air the matches on TV regarding Starcraft 2

>>블리자드는 그동안 ‘스타2’를 이용해 게임대회를 개최하거나 방송을 중계할 경우 자사의 허락을 받아야 할 뿐만 아니라 저작권료를 지불해야 한다고 주장해 왔다.

Blizzard has been using Starcraft 2 to state that whenever a gaming tournament is held, or whenever matches are aired on TV, not only do users need to gain permission from blizzard, but also need to pay royalties to Blizzard

>>반면 한국 e스포츠계는 대회나 방송중계 등은 저작권의 범위에 속하지 않는다며 기존 ‘스타크래프트’와 같은 방식으로 대회나 중계를 할 수 있도록 해 줄 것을 요청해 왔다.

On the other hand, KeSPA stated that Tournaments and TV Airings do not fall under Blizzard's ownership and requested that Starcraft 2 could be held at a similar format as the original Starcraft.

>>최원제 한국e스포츠협회 사무총장은 “블리자드가 계속 지재권을 주장한다면 방송사나 e스포츠 구단들이 ‘스타2’에 등을 돌리게 될 것”이라며 “국내 e스포츠는 블리자드가 만든 것이 아니라 방송사와 구단들이 만들어 온 것이기 때문”이라고 지적했다.

Choi WonJae, the Secretary General (wtf) of KeSPA stated that "If Blizzard continues to push forth for ownership, then Broadcasting stations and ESports Leagues will turn their backs to SC2" and "Korea's Esports was not made by Blizzard but created by the Broadcasting Stations and the Leagues".

>>e스포츠업계 한 관계자는 “지금의 e스포츠 구단들은 이익을 남기기 위해서가 아니라 사회에 공헌하기 위해 구단을 운영하는 경우가 대부분”이라며 “만약 블리자드가 e스포츠를 이용해 ‘스타2’ 판매를 극대화 하려 한다면 구단들이 팀 운영을 포기하는 사태도 벌어질 수 있다”고 경계했다.

A personnel related to Esports stated that "Many of the Esports leagues do not operate to make a profit but to contribute to society" and that "If Blizzard uses ESports only to increase Starcraft 2 sales, there could be a tragedy where many supporting companies will give up on operating a team"

(As a note there has been many hints that KeSPA does not have that much money in a few of the articles I've read, so this seems to be accurate, especially since iirc SC games are free to go to)

>>-약관상에 언급된 저작권 부분과 ‘스타크래프트2’의 랜을 통한 멀티플레이 미지원을 조합하면 사실상 블리자드의 허락없이는 ‘스타크래프트2’를 통한 e스포츠대회를 개최할 수 없는 것인가.
▲블리자드코리아(이하 블리자드): 블리자드의 입장은 개발사로서 자사의 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다. e스포츠에 대한 부분도 마찬가지다. ‘스타크래프트2’를 통해 토너먼트 대회를 진행하거나 방송 중계를 하기 위해서는 블리자드의 사전 동의나 협의가 필요하다. 동의나 협의 없이는 토너먼트 대회나 방송 중계를 할 수 없다.

(Basically a Korean Blizzard Representative states that Blizzard removed LAN to limit eSports so that they need to get Blizzard's permission.)

>>▲블리자드 : 블리자드는 모든 작품을 통합 계정을 통해 이용하도록 할 생각인 것은 맞다. ‘스타크래프트’ 역시 통합 계정을 이용해 배틀넷을 이용하게 될 것이다. 하지만 현재로서는 ‘스타크래프트’의 향후 계획에 대해 말할 수 있는 것이 없다. 기본 입장은 우리 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다.

(Even Starcraft will be held over Blizzard's Battlenet (but, the employee then states that he cannot talk about the issue atm))

(AKA: KeSPA needs to agree to Blizzard's term regarding Starcraft in addition to Starcraft 2)
---

So, any wonders why KeSPA is disagreeing with Blizzard? Blizzard attempting to centralize eSports is probably going to kill it faster than anything else ever -- just imagine playing Starcraft without ICCUP!

Simply put, I don't see any reasonable company agreeing to these terms, nor any Broadcasting Station. Good luck, Blizzard!




i fail to see how is that an unreasonable terms and condition... duh, its obvious blizz wants to centralised SC2 e-sports scene as a whole, why do u think they're not putting lan support and wtf do u think BNet 2.0 is about? the corporations are using SC as a medium of advertising their own brands, i fail to see the logic that saying paying royalties to blizz as broadcasting fees in unreasonable, its like hiring a model for clothing adverts, and then refuse to pay the model by saying we're making u(the model) famous as well, its absurd!

private servers such as iccup are needed because Bnet 1 structures are pretty ancient, and instead of upgrading an old system they're building an entire new Bnet from the ground up. honestly though i'd prefer tournaments are run privately without any interfering parties, but i trust that blizz as a company that truly respects the community and most of all enthusiastic about their own product would help promote SC2 as an esports further rather than ruining it or run it like some asshats in koreas(hi kespa). i don't agree with blizz on every thing that they were doing like seperating the bnet server into 3 regions, instead of doing it globally... but i don't think blizz is being anywhere near unreasonable here...
 
Old Post

  thedeadhaji   April 25 2010 23:29. Posts 23317Profile Blog # 
I personally agree with Shizuru that the conditions stated by Blizzard are fairly standard business contract stipulations.

Though I completely understand why/how Kespa would not want to give up ground on this issue, I don't see how they really have a basis to cry foul here. They had it WAY easy for 10 years and now they have to operate under standard international business structure. Of course an asian insitution will balk at the proposition at first, but eventually they will find out that fight or flight usually doesn't turn out too well then the opposition holds all the marbles...
Blog: http://blog.hkmurakami.com/
Old Post

 
 mrdx   Vietnam. April 25 2010 23:36. Posts 1553
Profile Blog # 

On April 25 2010 23:19 Senx wrote:
(...) they were the organization that pretty much created the pro scene and helped SC:BW live for many more years than it originally would have.

Sorry but GOD FUCKING DAMN IT one more person says this and my brain is going to explode

- KeSPA did NOT create the pro scene
(OGN and MBCGame did, and we all knew how KeSPA literally stole that away from them in the broadcasting right controversy in 2008)

- KeSPA did NOT help SC BW live longer
(in contrast, they almost killed it several times with their greedy broadcasting claims, poor refereeing, the Free Agents aka player slavery bullshit, incompetence in dealing with match fixing issues,...)

- KeSPA did NOT represent their players' best interests
(hundreds of dedicated professional gamers who spent 10hr a day practicing are the first ones who should say they deserve something from the success of the progaming scene in Korea, but sadly KeSPA is NOT the true representative of them. Creating bullshit things like FA and shutting down GOM clearly showed this)

- KeSPA is NOT the only one that could create eSport in Korea
If it only took GOM a short period to host a very decent tournaments with great players, great games, online live broadcast and even English commentary, I'm sure a lot of other organisations in Korea could step up and replace KeSPA at no time. (on the other hand Blizzard is irreplaceable - if KeSPA refuses to believe it then fine, go make something big out of Sudden Attack and some MMOs lol)
BoxerForever.com - the one and only international Boxer fansite since 2006 :)
Old Post

  thedeadhaji   April 25 2010 23:37. Posts 23317Profile Blog # 
relating to the post above ^
iirc was there something that forbids players from forming an union?

If such a stipulation exists... guess who is to blame lol
(iirc players aren't allowed to have agents right lololol)
Blog: http://blog.hkmurakami.com/
Old Post

 
 hypercube   Hungary. April 25 2010 23:39. Posts 1926
Profile # 
It's not clear to me that you actually need Blizzard's permission to organize BW tournaments. I guess it's for the courts to decide.

More importantly the interests of Teamliquid and the community in general are firmly aligned with KeSPA. Blizzard doesn't ask for licensing fees for community tournaments at the moment but there's no guarantee they won't in the future, especially if they plan to develop their own scene.

There are many reasons to hate KeSPA, from their own monopolistic tendencies to their mistreatment of progamers but that doesn't mean every time KeSPA loses we win.
"[...] you wanna have a future where you're expecting things to be better, not one where you're expecting things to be worse."
Old Post

 
 Shikyo   Finland. April 25 2010 23:43. Posts 20141
Profile Blog # 

On April 25 2010 23 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              25 2010 23      end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              25 2010 23      end_of_the_skype_highlighting:39 hypercube wrote:
It's not clear to me that you actually need Blizzard's permission to organize BW tournaments. I guess it's for the courts to decide.

More importantly the interests of Teamliquid and the community in general are firmly aligned with KeSPA. Blizzard doesn't ask for licensing fees for community tournaments at the moment but there's no guarantee they won't in the future, especially if they plan to develop their own scene.

There are many reasons to hate KeSPA, from their own monopolistic tendencies to their mistreatment of progamers but that doesn't mean every time KeSPA loses we win.

Teamliquid isn't televising their tournaments and making millions off advertising, it's quite different.

EDIT: well maybe not making that much but
Last edit: 2010-04-25 23:52:51
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Old Post

 
 [X]Ken_D   United States. April 25 2010 23:43. Posts 4603
Profile Blog # 

On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote:
Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.

EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.


I LOLed. How naive and misguided. Korean BW league existed long before KeSPA. Ask anyone here who has been in the scene long enough!
Last edit: 2010-04-25 23:45:02
[X]Domain - I just do the website. Nothing more.
Old Post

 
 hypercube   Hungary. April 25 2010 23:48. Posts 1926
Profile # 

On April 25 2010 23:43 Shikyo wrote:
Teamliquid isn't televising their tournaments and making millions off advertising, it's quite different.


How so? Has Blizzard promised to only ask for licensing fees if you're making millions? Is it legally binding?

At the moment Blizzard has no reason to target these events so it doesn't. This may not always be the case.
"[...] you wanna have a future where you're expecting things to be better, not one where you're expecting things to be worse."
Old Post

 
 mrdx   Vietnam. April 25 2010 23:49. Posts 1553
Profile Blog # 

On April 25 2010 23:37 thedeadhaji wrote:
relating to the post above ^
iirc was there something that forbids players from forming an union?

If such a stipulation exists... guess who is to blame lol
(iirc players aren't allowed to have agents right lololol)

Yes iirc due to the mad success of (Starcraft) progaming in 2001-2003, Korean government granted KeSPA a few exclusive rights when they first emerged as the sole governing body of eSport.
Sadly (as some well informed TLers have told us), most of the good people at KeSPA back then no longer work in the KeSPA board today.
BoxerForever.com - the one and only international Boxer fansite since 2006 :)
Old Post

 
 neVern   United States. April 25 2010 23:49. Posts 115
Profile # 


Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.

EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.


So, companies that seek profits are greedy?
Where does that logic come from?

I thought companies sole purpose was to maximize profits. I guess everything I have learned in my business classes are dead wrong. Can you right a textbook or something illustrating the truth so you can inform people in such tough economic times around the globe?
Old Post

 
 [X]Ken_D   United States. April 25 2010 23:56. Posts 4603
Profile Blog # 

On April 25 2010 14:40 .risingdragoon wrote:
People still think kespa's some governing body like the fed or something, and that proteams can operate without them.

Kespa is SKT1, it's Samsung, it's OGN/MBC, it's made up of all these big corps that have sponsored and financed esports all these years and made it possible while Blizzard sold 3+ million copies of SC in S.K. That's why they feel they can't budge. If someone took the paper that you made and did wonderful things with it, wouldn't they lay claim to the creation?

Without these big corporate money and with just Blizz itself funding it SC2 scene would just be pitiful. It'd definitely roll back esports to small lan party tournies unless kespa can find another game for pros to play, or negotiate something that works for both sides.

I'm interested in the terms proposed by Blizzard, and Kespa's counter. But I guess that'd take a long time...



If not Samsung, OGN/MBC, etc then it would be some other big corporation. These corporations are making a lot of money off of Blizzard's product. KeSPA doesn't just regulate esports, they are a giant business. There is a huge fucking conflict of interest when the ones regulating also has a huge hand in the money. GOM is the most obvious example. Conflicted with OGN/MBC league so they shut it down by removing the players. It's not even the players choice.
[X]Domain - I just do the website. Nothing more.
Old Post

  Jibba   United States. April 25 2010 23:58. Posts 20186Profile Blog # 

On April 25 2010 23:19 Senx wrote:
Hate KeSPA all you want for their terrible decisions and what not, but in the end, they were the organization that pretty much created the pro scene and helped SC:BW live for many more years than it originally would have.

With them out of the picture for SC2, i'm not exactly optimistic about any sort of pro scene for SC2.

One can still hope though, right?

Today, I'm sure they won't have many problems finding investors who would be willing to establish a new set of SC2 leagues.

Just because Ford made the first affordable cars doesn't mean you have to keep buying them today.
Last edit: 2010-04-26 00:02:13
Now I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Old Post

 
 TheTuna   United States. April 26 2010 00:04. Posts 188
Profile # 

On April 25 2010 17:08 StarcraftMan wrote:

Show nested quote +



ROFL, what tournaments? Name one SC2 tournament that pays $40K for first place (nevermind the prize money for 2nd, 3rd place, etc) and has thousands of live fans watching in a huge auditorium with significant media coverage and sponsors.

THERE ARE NONE.


It's still in beta...
Nuclear Launch Detected
Old Post

 
 Polis   Poland. April 26 2010 00:31. Posts 1229
Profile # 

On April 25 2010 23:49 neVern wrote:So, companies that seek profits are greedy?
Where does that logic come from?

I thought companies sole purpose was to maximize profits. I guess everything I have learned in my business classes are dead wrong. Can you right a textbook or something illustrating the truth so you can inform people in such tough economic times around the globe?


Companies belong to people, so they purpose depend on what those people want. You believe that companies are separate beings with they own purpose? How would you define greed then? You can't be greedy when you own a company? All companies are greedy>they aren't greedy becouse all companies are like that, nice circulated logic sir.
Old Post

 
 J1.au   Australia. April 26 2010 00:38. Posts 3533
Profile Blog # 

On April 25 2010 23:43 [X]Ken_D wrote:

Show nested quote +



I LOLed. How naive and misguided. Korean BW league existed long before KeSPA. Ask anyone here who has been in the scene long enough!

But if there had been no KeSPA would Korean BW have continued this long? I doubt it.
 
Old Post

 
 Puosu   April 26 2010 00:38. Posts 6598
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On April 26 2010 00:04 TheTuna wrote:

Show nested quote +



It's still in beta...

After Quake Live SC2 is by far the biggest beta when it comes to prize money and QL is not really even beta that much because its just an old game and the beta is mostly for the additional functions not gameplay.

SC2 will definitely have tournaments exceeding 40k prize money no matter how badly KESPA/Blizzard clash, there is absolutely no doubt about it. The question is if it can completely kill BW or if they will co-exist.
Old Post

 
 Fraidnot   United States. April 26 2010 00:44. Posts 801
Profile Blog # 

On April 26 2010 00:31 Polis wrote:

Show nested quote +



Companies belong to people, so they purpose depend on what those people want. You believe that companies are separate beings with they own purpose? How would you define greed then? You can't be greedy when you own a company? All companies are greedy>they aren't greedy becouse all companies are like that, nice circulated logic sir.

Everyone is entitled to the opportunity to make bank by selling a product in a fair manner. It becomes greedy when you circumvent standard business practices and laws to make that happen.
 
Old Post

  Jibba   United States. April 26 2010 00:56. Posts 20186Profile Blog # 

On April 26 2010 00:38 J1.au wrote:

Show nested quote +


But if there had been no KeSPA would Korean BW have continued this long? I doubt it.

Your hypothetical precludes the notion of any kind of alternative organization. Did KeSPA extend the life of BW? Probably. But if KeSPA wasn't around, another group would have likely filled their place. In 2010, I believe that's a certainty.
Now I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Old Post

 
 Mohdoo   United States. April 26 2010 01:12. Posts 3940
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Do you guys not realize how big the competitive SC2 scene already is in beta? Korea doesn't matter. Korea can not even be a part of the SC2 scene and it'll still be bigger than any RTS scene has ever been. I think you guys are way too caught up in how SC1 was centered in Korea. SC1 got centered in Korea for a variety of reasons that won't be true for SC2. The days of Korea being the hub for RTS is over and Blizzard knows that. That's why they aren't giving in. They don't have to.
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