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| FreshVegetables Finland. May 20 2010 09:18. Posts 485 | Profile Blog # |
On May 20 2010 09:12 kNyTTyM wrote:
You are talking about the 1fact tanks into expo right? Do a cute push with 6ish marines and 1 tank while expoing.
2 gate expand is perfectly safe. 1 stalker into only zealots holds really easily. I believe expansion should be started around when terran gets first tank. Marine tank is total shit versus zealots.
Then I get robo and 2 more gates. Twilight council follows soon after.
edit: They key is to make as little stalkers as possible because tanks tear through them so fast.
I disagree with this. If you infact scout his facory you can easily get expo out of just one gate. Also, personally im more comfortable facing his marine tank push with an overwhelming amount of stalkers and just a couple of zealots to take the first tank hits. One reason is that the stalker is much more versatile and it's way easier to switch to offense after beating his initial tank / marine push. |
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| Spoof United States. May 20 2010 09:23. Posts 46 | Profile # |
| Mass chargelots from two gate while teching to mothership. Then recall into his base. |
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| kcdc United States. May 20 2010 10:11. Posts 2311 | Profile Blog # |
| Fresh, thanks for the input. Yours has been by far the most relevant to what I'd like to do. Before seeing your post, I tried a couple times today to build the nexus after cyber core, and then adding 3 more gateways with mixed results. Some of that was that I just didn't execute smoothly, but it didn't feel strong as I was playing. I was using zealot/sentry tho, and you've apparently had success w/ stalkers. I'll try that out some. I'd love to see replays. |
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| potchip Australia. May 20 2010 11:32. Posts 260 | Profile # |
In all my games I played vs toss they always maintained a numerical advantage (in terms of population) off one base. T ball does not become cost effective until stim comes into effect and even then ghost support is mandatory. Pretty much all the toss I played in plat do 3-5 gates off one base anyway nowadays.
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| FreshVegetables Finland. May 20 2010 20:22. Posts 485 | Profile Blog # |
On May 20 2010 10:11 kcdc wrote:
Fresh, thanks for the input. Yours has been by far the most relevant to what I'd like to do. Before seeing your post, I tried a couple times today to build the nexus after cyber core, and then adding 3 more gateways with mixed results. Some of that was that I just didn't execute smoothly, but it didn't feel strong as I was playing. I was using zealot/sentry tho, and you've apparently had success w/ stalkers. I'll try that out some. I'd love to see replays.
I just uploaded a replaypack, Check it out if you want. Most of the games I play vs T I use the build I mentioned earlier.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=83TNWI00 There might be a few non PvT's in this pack as well but I believe most of these replays I use the build I described in my previous post. GL HF |
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| kcdc United States. May 21 2010 01:27. Posts 2311 | Profile Blog # |
Fresh--watched a couple of your replays where you went 10-gate into expo after cyber core. Very interesting. It certainly looks like it could be safe if you scout the factory, although the Terran player did build a starport that didn't get used for the initial push, so that push wasn't as strong as it could have been. Attacking without siege mode would also boster T's initial push since you don't need siege mode against stalkers.
The other thing that I noticed is that you didn't quite have the resources to support all 4 warpgates initially. You could probably squeeze one more unit into your initial defense by adding on just 2 gateways after the FE. Since the additional gateways will finish about the same time as warpgate tech finishes, you can use the gateway-warpgate switching trick (time to make 2 stalkers and cooldown from warpgate is 64 seconds; if you warp in, switch to gateway, build, and switch back to warpgate, you complete the cycle in 54 seconds) to get effectively 3.5 warpgates of production from 3 warpgates. That should be all you can support at first, and would give you an extra unit to defend T's first push. |
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| kcdc United States. May 21 2010 01:47. Posts 2311 | Profile Blog # | |
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| FreshVegetables Finland. May 21 2010 14:57. Posts 485 | Profile Blog # |
On May 21 2010 01:27 kcdc wrote:
Fresh--watched a couple of your replays where you went 10-gate into expo after cyber core. Very interesting. It certainly looks like it could be safe if you scout the factory, although the Terran player did build a starport that didn't get used for the initial push, so that push wasn't as strong as it could have been. Attacking without siege mode would also boster T's initial push since you don't need siege mode against stalkers.
The other thing that I noticed is that you didn't quite have the resources to support all 4 warpgates initially. You could probably squeeze one more unit into your initial defense by adding on just 2 gateways after the FE. Since the additional gateways will finish about the same time as warpgate tech finishes, you can use the gateway-warpgate switching trick (time to make 2 stalkers and cooldown from warpgate is 64 seconds; if you warp in, switch to gateway, build, and switch back to warpgate, you complete the cycle in 54 seconds) to get effectively 3.5 warpgates of production from 3 warpgates. That should be all you can support at first, and would give you an extra unit to defend T's first push.
Thanks for the input! I wasnt even aware of that trick until you posted about it  Also yes, I know that my build isn't perfect, but i'm definitely adapting the build on the go. Atm. I'm way more comfortable using that build against skilled players that are less likely to go 1 base all ins. On the ladder I usually play way safer.
One problem i've been running into is banshees, it's really very hard to know what Terran is doing. So i've been thinking that robo ultimately is the only realistic option. Because I really hate playing blindly and I don't really appreciate a win if I counter him by "luck" so to speak. eg. If I go citadel and charge rush. It's lucky that he didnt go banshees out of 1/2 bases. Ya Obviously, you can get some hints on what he's doing judging from his unit count and on a expansion. But still, in general it's rly hard to tell whether he gets those bancheeses or not.
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| PROJECTILE United States. May 21 2010 15:40. Posts 226 | Profile # |
| I watched some of those replays. I'm unsure as to what real goal you have with that build (well, obviously more econ, but it doesn't really materialize as units for quite a while). You are still running off of just 4 warp gates, and a proper 9 or 10 minute push by terran would crush it even harder than normal 4 warp gate stalkers because of the extra cash you shelled out for the expansion. Why build an FE when you are only supporting the same number of unit producing structures that you can off of one base? Not to mention, it is extremely vulnerable to banshee play which is a very easy transition when someone notices what you're doing. |
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| FreshVegetables Finland. May 21 2010 16:36. Posts 485 | Profile Blog # |
On May 21 2010 15:40 PROJECTILE wrote:
I watched some of those replays. I'm unsure as to what real goal you have with that build (well, obviously more econ, but it doesn't really materialize as units for quite a while). You are still running off of just 4 warp gates, and a proper 9 or 10 minute push by terran would crush it even harder than normal 4 warp gate stalkers because of the extra cash you shelled out for the expansion. Why build an FE when you are only supporting the same number of unit producing structures that you can off of one base? Not to mention, it is extremely vulnerable to banshee play which is a very easy transition when someone notices what you're doing.
Well, If that build is plain bad. Why did I beat some rather good good players using that build then? Best player in Finland included. Also what kind of 9-10 minute push? Because often i've held off 2-3 rax builds very easily, especially on blistering sands.
Yeah, I realize that the timing of that FE isn't optimal, not even by a long shot. I can't even get a good saturation so that it would pay off very quickly. Well, i'm just mainly confused because i've had so much success with that build, and yeah obviously a 1 base banshee play would probably win over this. But I gotta say if some Terran uses 1 base banshees, he's not a very good player to begin with.
From my experience this build is much stronger against good macro terrans, who tend to get a relatively fast expansion. If you look in those replays I won over Naama, Satiini and other above 2000 poin Terrans. If this build was garbage, i'd get rolled right?
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