| ascoe Korea (South). June 29 2010 18:43. Posts 133 | Profile Blog # |
more thank yous
I would love to see a guide to ZvZ especially one that talks about when and how to follow up a baneling opening |
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| Markwerf Netherlands. June 29 2010 19:37. Posts 2918 | Profile # |
a bit of a mess to read and gives a lot of small info about the early game but isn't comprehensive at all.
Basically it says that a good opening is 13 pool with ling speed and then a expansion but when or what exactly it's a bit fuzzy. |
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| Lighioana Norway. June 29 2010 20:41. Posts 466 | Profile # | |
| | And forgive me nothing for I truly meant it all |
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| naniwa1 Sweden. June 29 2010 20:52. Posts 36 | Profile # |
lol what a noobish playstyle :[
User was warned for this post |
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| Drazzzt Germany. June 29 2010 21:02. Posts 985 | Profile # |
Mmh.
Sheth, have you ever played against a very (!) skilled 2-gate opening on (even only rather) close positions?
Right now I still have to see a hatch (after pool) built before speed finishes which doesnt go down _or_ leads to a economic disadvantage. I really don't think you can hold a 15 hatch after pool against this (probably only with losing drones or lots of collecting time). So, you seem to be very confident that you can hold it, and probably you could (even against tester or w/e, even though I still doubt it :-) ), but the "average" gamer could probably not. So, what would you do in his or her stead?
Thx
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| | Be Nice, Be Fair, Be Mannered. |
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| Carga Netherlands. June 29 2010 21:27. Posts 58 | Profile # |
| I am still trying to understand the Zerg race more. and this helped me out a lot! thanks |
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| FTemplar Canada. June 29 2010 21:29. Posts 70 | Profile # |
Sehth,
What do you think about the idea of still getting a fast 2nd hatchery, but putting it in your main, or just before the ramp?
FTemplar |
| | I have to vomit every 30 seconds, otherwise I don't feel so good. |
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| Lighioana Norway. June 29 2010 21:52. Posts 466 | Profile # |
On June 29 2010 20:52 naniwa wrote:
lol what a noobish playstyle :[
Instead of trolling you might wanna motivate your opinion. |
| | And forgive me nothing for I truly meant it all |
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| aLt)nirvana Singapore. June 29 2010 21:58. Posts 803 | Profile Blog # |
i like naniwa hes like the euro idra
sheth add a replay pack up imoLast edit: 2010-06-29 21:59:40 |
| | sc2sea.com - The SEA / ANZ community |
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| figq June 30 2010 00:10. Posts 10064 | Profile Blog # |
Sheth,
thank you, that was a very nice read. Would share what are the weakest points of the build - i.e. what caused you the most losses? It would help to concentrate some special attention to those moments.
I think this tends to be often tricky:
On June 29 2010 05:05 Sheth wrote:
I love going 13 pool because these initial zerglings + your first queen can provide a solid defence vs. a rush. You will be able to get your zerglings out in time to defend your hatchery if you properly micro. Don’t be afraid to let your hatchery take some damage from a probe and a few zealots. You don’t want to attack until you have an advantage.
So you mean pull the army away, and avoid engaging, until it's enforced to the proper size - I think most new players have a hard time measuring this timing adequately (either engage too early or too late). What do you do as proper ling micro vs zealots? Attack each zealot with 4 lings (is there efficient way to execute this?), or all on one, or just normal ground A-click plus a few focused ones? Do you run away with lings that are low on health, or there's no point / is too hard to execute?
Hope you do the ZvT and ZvZ too, many subtle helpful bits were found here.
Last edit: 2010-06-30 00:26:56 |
| | If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9] |
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| Diamond United States. June 30 2010 00:16. Posts 9076 | Profile Blog # |
On June 29 2010 20:52 naniwa wrote:
lol what a noobish playstyle :[
Lol prove it and play him in the next ITL this Sunday or next Sunday (whenever the beta comes back up).
Sheth already accepted the match. How about you? |
| | Check out ESV TV at http://www.esvtv.com ****** TaeJa, he's pretty good. |
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| Ouga Finland. June 30 2010 00:19. Posts 534 | Profile # |
By own experiences, looks pretty accurate. I like that as chosen BO the early 100gas was the pick, with the modern 10gw chrono / 2gw builds being so popular, going for some 15p 15h just doesn't work good enough.
For a while I thought I'd try starting with roaches since lings will become pretty bad in lategame while roaches don't, but the early gas mining thing is actually HUGE. Taking the gasminers out makes such big difference, so you actually lose eco by trusting early defense on roaches instead of gain late advantage when you end up mining 200+ gas instead of round 100. The pre-hat gas for speed and then drones off seems like the standard eco/safe build for zvp.
I might've nagged on how guide about almost only early BO isn't worth posting, but for zvp it pretty much equals most knowledge you'll need. Once you've managed to go for your max drone amount, til the point where you start making more units than drones. It's actually pretty simple to make the remaining units, usually around roach/hydra/spire axis, once you're economically clear of trouble. |
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| naniwa1 Sweden. June 30 2010 00:55. Posts 36 | Profile # |
On June 30 2010 00:16 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Lol prove it and play him in the next ITL this Sunday or next Sunday (whenever the beta comes back up). Sheth already accepted the match. How about you?
i accept. |
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 Liquid`Sheth United States. June 30 2010 00:56. Posts 2027 | Profile Blog # |
Once again thanks a TON for all the people who enjoyed my guide and took the time to look through it!
Blade -- I understand what your saying and I didn't mean to imply that the only way to kill the probe was with speed. I will adjust how I wrote that thank you. And I wasn't saying that its the best build just that I feel its an important build to have in your repiotoire. Its also my favorite and I feel it gets me in the best mid game position. ^^;
Brokengamer -- Awesome! So glad you enjoyed it and now hopefully your macro will kick in!
ascoe -- Thanks you too, I will work on a ZvZ guide at some point in the future! (If beta comes up soon it might take a bit, I have a few big things to do such as work on streaming, casting, and of course practicing.)
Markwerf -- I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it. I'll try next time to make it easier to read. Also if the when to make a 13 pool is fuzzy, I meant its at 13 drones so you would be at 13/13 on the population meter.
Lighioana -- For both your posts, thank you. (Good use of the word Troll!)
Drazzt -- Very interesting question. I find that if you go 13 pool it will definetly provide you with enough lings compared with 15 pool. I would compare it with Mondragons 9 hatch 9 pool build vs. the old 12 hatch 11 pool build. 12 hatch is VERY hard to defend a good 2 gate build, where as with 9 hatch 9 pool its easier. Howevever if you just can't hold it with zerglings, a good idea is to make 4-5 roaches to pressure him, but don't feel like you have to kill him. These roaches should just be used to chase zealots and force him to cannon or stalker / sentry. (When you go roaches tho be careful Protoss like to make voidrays vs. roach zergs!)
Carga -- I'm glad it helped you! If it helps 1-2 people be better players I will be happy.
FeTmplar --(See what I did there?) Now onto your question, I've tried making a second hatchery in my main. I don't feel this is ... I feel a good word is precise. If you ever listened to Nony talking about SC1 he talks about his visit in korea and how the koreans will make just the right ammount of producing buildings (gateways, barracks) that you will always be using them. So there would be no reason to make a 5th gateway if you could use ALL your minerals making units out of 4 gateways. I feel like with that 2nd hatchery in your main without an expansion you will be wasting alot of larva. I just feel like thats a sin lol 
aLT)Nirvana -- Yeah hes cute, I still like Idra more tho. You should read the idra's quote page its epic. I would love to post a replay pack, however I re-installed my sc2 so I don't have any replays left. I will try and put one up whenever phase 2 comes up!
Last edit: 2010-06-30 00:57:22 |
| | Underneath it all they were really quite nice. They just got screwed up. Mostly by stuff that wasn't entirely their fault. |
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| ZergSecs Sweden. June 30 2010 01:21. Posts 10 | Profile # |
Great writeup. Guess I'll start to do early gas for speedlings in the future. Looks like it's common to do.
>I have a few big things to do such as work on streaming, casting, and of course practicing.)
You have a stream on ustream/livestream?
^ nvm, found it. Do you have any specific times when you usually stream or is it just random, like when you feel to stream?Last edit: 2010-06-30 01:37:52 |
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| Merikh United States. June 30 2010 01:40. Posts 914 | Profile Blog # |
| What about the TLO opening - Double extractor, 12 pool, 11 extractor 10 overlord ;o against the gate outside/2gate outside of base? |
| | G4MR | I mod day9, djwheat and GLHF's stream |
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 rS.Sinatra Canada. June 30 2010 01:57. Posts 785 | Profile # |
| On maps like Steppes of War, doesn't a slow 2nd hatch and lack of gas (pulling 3 drones off gas early) leave you vulnerable to a proxy-voidray or a void-immortal-mass zealot combo? I've seen Protoss players throw down double gateway, 1 robo 1 stargate and get a protoss version of a 1-1-1 build and just kill the zerg b/c he only had 1-base, not able to produce sufficient hydralisks to defend. |
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| EnderCN United States. June 30 2010 02:16. Posts 499 | Profile # |
| You can hold off early void rays quite easily with just queens. |
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| rS.Sinatra Canada. June 30 2010 02:23. Posts 785 | Profile # |
On June 30 2010 02:16 EnderCN wrote:
You can hold off early void rays quite easily with just queens.
That would be true if there were only voidrays to worry about.... |
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| Liquid`Sheth United States. June 30 2010 02:23. Posts 2027 | Profile Blog # |
Next batch of answers to questions/thoughts :
figq -- I'm glad you've thought a lot about what I've wrote. The weakest points in this build I would say are the transitions. Figuring out when to stop making zerglings and start making drones, figuring out when exactly to put drones back on gas, figuring out when to make a lair, and figuring out how many queens you should get. You want to do all of those things while keeping your economy similar to the Protoss'. With zealots vs. zerglings yes its important to have around 4 per zealot. Its also important to not engage (get near enough that the zealots can attack your lings) before you have enough to kill the zealots. IF they can escape their shields regenerates really quick. A small tip you can do is select two zerglnigs and have them focus fire down the probe. I find that really helps!
Diamond -- Thanks for looking out for me! <3
Ouga -- Thanks! Yeah I wanted to go more into middle game, but I was daunted by the many different buildings and build orders I could talk about. Hopefully I'll have the motivation to go into it fairly soon tho!
Naniwa -- I appreciate that you don't want other zerg styles to try this. Hopefully no other zergs realize that when a protoss calls a build newbish they just don't want you to do it vs. them.
Zergsecs -- I'm glad your interested in me having a stream up! I had an old one that I attempted to stream from several times, however I will have a new one up shortly. I'll keep in touch with you so you have it! (Cool I have someone who'll watch me stream XD!)
Merikh -- Wow. Um I don't really know, I've never tried it personally. It sounds like a very anti-pressure early build. I think it could definetly have posibilities I've never heard of it so I can't really talk about it from personal experience. However if your having trouble vs. a protoss early it sounds like a good option! (Besides if TLO does it, it can't be that bad! -- Read its awesome)
Paramore -- Its not a very slow second hatch, in fact its faster then if you make a 14 pool 15 hatch, because you will be able to avoid the probe that makes your 14 pool 15 hatch a 14 pool 19 hatch. There is no innate proxy-voidray that works wonders against this, no matter what build order you do as zerg you have to watch for those evil flying death beams.
Last edit: 2010-06-30 02:24:30 |
| | Underneath it all they were really quite nice. They just got screwed up. Mostly by stuff that wasn't entirely their fault. |
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