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| Lighioana Norway. July 11 2010 17:27. Posts 466 | Profile # |
I don't agree with the conclusion. Army control can make one win or lose a battle in SC2 right now. While I agree that there is a "one control syndrome" in many players right now, you are drawing conclusions from a couple of months of playing for a limited number of people with no real professional leagues running anywhere and an ever changing game (patches).
You took 10 years of gameplay for tens of millions of people and compared it with 3 months of playing for thousands of people.Last edit: 2010-07-11 17:42:57 |
| | And forgive me nothing for I truly meant it all |
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| hoptime Australia. July 11 2010 17:28. Posts 35 | Profile # |
On July 11 2010 15:11 QibingZero wrote:What I'm getting at is that all of these 'give it time' posts are ridiculous. Do you really think the top players aren't trying out every possible way to win? With players being picked up by eSports teams before the game is even released, you'd better believe they're trying every little trick they can to get the advantage over others. Despite everything though, they can't make infestors as game-changing as defilers were. They can't make skirmishes come as interesting as marine vs lurker or goons vs early terran pressure. There are limitations in place that simply cannot be overcome by 'figuring more stuff out'.
With that logic you may as well dismiss brood war as well as being immune to innovation?? I agree with Redmark's post, which was excellent. |
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| spinesheath Germany. July 11 2010 17:29. Posts 5184 | Profile Blog # |
It's NOT the engine that prevents gameplay options. The engine could easily support the BW EMP with travel time, dark swarm, irradiate. Spells could have a global delay to prevent blanket storming, or the storm radius and energy cost could be reduced so that it actually takes a ton of clicks to blanket storm an area. Force Field creating stale situations is not the fault of the engine.
All of these are design choices that have nothing to do with the engine and that could be changed easily and quickly. |
| | If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you. |
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| bostic Australia. July 11 2010 17:41. Posts 41 | Profile # |
A good article, well thought out, and it has made me reflect.
As time goes on and sc2 develops and players try new things, we may see creativity and dynamics of depth similar to BW, but perhaps with a different focus. The game is so young at the moment and who knows what will come as player skill develops and new options and paths are explored. Remember its not even released yet, judging it so early is a bit pre emptive. Even when BW first came out, no one could have predicted the creative and skillful micro mastery that is prevalent today.
Your heavy romancing of 'old BW' comes across as over the top imo. |
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 TheYango United States. July 11 2010 17:44. Posts 16297 | Profile # |
Great post! I could watch that Cool Mine Booms video all day...
On July 11 2010 14:53 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Yeah likewise, SC2 has had 7 years of design time plus 12 years of BW evolution, to create a game that should be 100x better than BW from the get-go.
SC2 should have taken what was so captivating in BW and made it even better. IMO SC2 just seems to be riding on the success of BW, and hoping that any change will still lead to a good game.
While I agree with the OP, I disagree strongly with this view. The idea that the developers at Blizzard can systematically go through all the gameplay elements of BW, and pick out the ones that worked and the ones that didn't, is quite frankly ridiculous. I would say that emulating the perfection of BW is virtually an impossible feat, and anyone who went into SC2 expecting the developers to be able to do so, would, in all cases, be sorely disappointed. To expect that is both unrealistic, and unfair to the developers at Blizzard.Last edit: 2010-07-11 17:44:36 |
| | 如果有一天星际没有了,如果有一天DOTA没有了,我不会消失. |  |
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| Endymion United States. July 11 2010 17:44. Posts 2478 | Profile Blog # |
On July 11 2010 17:29 spinesheath wrote:
It's NOT the engine that prevents gameplay options. The engine could easily support the BW EMP with travel time, dark swarm, irradiate. Spells could have a global delay to prevent blanket storming, or the storm radius and energy cost could be reduced so that it actually takes a ton of clicks to blanket storm an area. Force Field creating stale situations is not the fault of the engine.
All of these are design choices that have nothing to do with the engine and that could be changed easily and quickly.
It is the engine that prevents options though, the fact that it is so much easier to quickly and accurately cast spells means that pros will not have to train much to perfect their use, just look at some diamond league games with FF or blanket storms. Blizzard isn't going to add a global delay, they will just nerf the spell until it is "balanced" being cast over a 3x3 pattern. The engine itself is what imperfects the usage of "imbalanced" spells and micro moves, be it dark swarm, stasis, or even muta/wraith micro. |
| | It left us speechless, quite speechless I tell you, and we have not stopped talking of it since. |  |
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| TheYango United States. July 11 2010 17:45. Posts 16297 | Profile # |
On July 11 2010 17:44 Endymion wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 11 2010 17:29 spinesheath wrote:
It's NOT the engine that prevents gameplay options. The engine could easily support the BW EMP with travel time, dark swarm, irradiate. Spells could have a global delay to prevent blanket storming, or the storm radius and energy cost could be reduced so that it actually takes a ton of clicks to blanket storm an area. Force Field creating stale situations is not the fault of the engine.
All of these are design choices that have nothing to do with the engine and that could be changed easily and quickly.
It is the engine that prevents options though, the fact that it is so much easier to quickly and accurately cast spells means that pros will not have to train much to perfect their use, just look at some diamond league games with FF or blanket storms. Blizzard isn't going to add a global delay, they will just nerf the spell until it is "balanced" being cast over a 3x3 pattern. The engine itself is what imperfects the usage of "imbalanced" spells and micro moves, be it dark swarm, stasis, or even muta/wraith micro.
I think the point is that smart-casting in its current implementation is not an inherent feature of the SC2 engine but a feature that has been put into the interface on top of the engine. As such, fixing it is not an issue that should be hard to rectify, if it is made clear that it is an issue.Last edit: 2010-07-11 17:49:32 |
| | 如果有一天星际没有了,如果有一天DOTA没有了,我不会消失. | |
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| Smu Serbia. July 11 2010 17:57. Posts 163 | Profile # |
| Fantastic write up that expresses so many of the thoughts I had about the game. Try to email this to blizzard or post it somewhere where they might respond, it's gonna hurt because it's true. |
| | Take us into orbit Mr. Malmsteen. We've seen enough. |  |
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| Endymion United States. July 11 2010 17:57. Posts 2478 | Profile Blog # |
On July 11 2010 17:45 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 11 2010 17:44 Endymion wrote:
On July 11 2010 17:29 spinesheath wrote:
It's NOT the engine that prevents gameplay options. The engine could easily support the BW EMP with travel time, dark swarm, irradiate. Spells could have a global delay to prevent blanket storming, or the storm radius and energy cost could be reduced so that it actually takes a ton of clicks to blanket storm an area. Force Field creating stale situations is not the fault of the engine.
All of these are design choices that have nothing to do with the engine and that could be changed easily and quickly.
It is the engine that prevents options though, the fact that it is so much easier to quickly and accurately cast spells means that pros will not have to train much to perfect their use, just look at some diamond league games with FF or blanket storms. Blizzard isn't going to add a global delay, they will just nerf the spell until it is "balanced" being cast over a 3x3 pattern. The engine itself is what imperfects the usage of "imbalanced" spells and micro moves, be it dark swarm, stasis, or even muta/wraith micro.
I think the point is that smart-casting in its current implementation is not an inherent feature of the SC2 engine but a feature that has been put into the interface on top of the engine.
Then what is an inherent feature if it doesn't include unit commands and casting methods? You could then argue that any feature that makes SC2 different from SCBW is simply an interface addition. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I thought the OP was regarding differences in micro between the two games.Last edit: 2010-07-11 17:57:47 |
| | It left us speechless, quite speechless I tell you, and we have not stopped talking of it since. | |
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| Cytokinesis Canada. July 11 2010 18:19. Posts 287 | Profile # |
I think and *incredibly* important part to remember is that this is JUST SC2. It's like looking at SC, not BW. I mean think of all the units you mentioned in that post, and all of the dynamics. Don't even pretend half of them were there before BW came out. Sc2 isn't close to the same depth as SC and blizzard knows this. This is why they are releasing expansion packs. How long do you honestly think it would take to make another game that involved?
And please don't say the game has been in development for 12 years. I honestly hope no one believes that. It's as if the minute they released BW they looked at each other and said "well let's get number 2 going!". SC2 has been in serious development for, what, 4 years? maybe. When the expansion comes out I guarantee you will get all of your dynamics back. You can't expect them to be able to perfect that many things on initial release. They need to perfect the basic of SC2 first, in which they add the "wow" factor on. If you have wow and crappy fundamentals the game suffers for it in the long run.
Now I've read a lot of the previous comments about how SC2 should be BW and more. Really? Seriously? Do you really believe this? I am seriously asking, not being rhetorical. It doesn't make any sense. I mean if you don't think about it, it makes sense. But when you think about it in a business and practical sense that is impossible. You will never get a bigger and badder BW from any release ever for probably the next 5 years at least. I don't want to say ever because I don't have unlimited foresight.Last edit: 2010-07-11 18:38:27 |
| | Ive seen people who dont believe in sleep count sheep with calculators that double as alarm clocks |
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| pzea469 United States. July 11 2010 18:20. Posts 1473 | Profile Blog # |
| i gotta agree with this, I love sc2 but now that i think of it, theres not that many nailbiting moments in comparison to sc1. Idk, only time will tell if such things will develop, but the way things are now its looking to be a more boring game. I hate how blizzard has dumbed down all abilities and spells. Anyways, who knows, maybe in future patches things will change? |
| | Kill the Deathball | |
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| Mellotron United States. July 11 2010 18:33. Posts 329 | Profile Blog # |
Only BW could so good that only a couple days after SC2 beta came back people are watching old BW vods and losing hype on SC2. BW is a great game.
One thing about high level BW is that the game is so well worked out that the micro tricks used in certain scenarios are a legacy of many other small strategic actions and decisions. So, after so many games being played out, we can easily see how vital even the tiniest things are to the outcome. Sometimes things come down to having enough energy for just 1 scan. Or 1 dark swarm. I think its possible that after we have seen SC2 develop a little further in the hands of decent players sharing information on teams we will see more critical moments where just one bad EMP or whatever costs someone a game. When we all have seen these types of things a thousand times in SC2, we will start to see the significance of smaller actions grow. But im sure everyone already knows that but the mind gets restless waiting for things to be "perfect".
One thing i can say for sure, is there needs to be more volatile sounds and spells graphically. Plague looked and sounded like a plague. I mean, youd look at your army and there would be this red disease flung on them getting into the cracks of their armor and eating away at them. Even the sound seems unpleasant and sickly. Red is an alarming color. But with Fungal Growth these little green balloons grow out of your marines and start to do tandem glowing/wobbling. Its just way less volatile. It doesnt seem like war it just seems like tag. Spells/banelings need to be louder and have more vicious sound effects and names. Even if banelings could be used exactly like mines, they dont really have the punch of mines graphically or sonically. Banelings explode like waterballoons filled with green pudding. And the explosion seems kind of delayed to where its not very impactful or satisfying. Yeah, it works, but it doesnt feel like a sprung trap or a punch to the face. Even when everything gets killed by the banelings its just not really as vicious feeling as mines in BW. |
| | Starcraft player since 1999 |
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| TerranUp16 United States. July 11 2010 18:38. Posts 88 | Profile # |
I really like the post. There are some quibbles to be had about the engine and/or modern amenities being the culprits, but if I just step back and act as if no culprits were suggested and simply look at the facts presented, the article's great.
In particular, I felt the points about many abilities and mechanics only focusing on the execution of one player were excellent (Seeker Missile is one of the few exceptions to this) and backed-up rather well, putting into words what most observers and players of StarCraft 1 feel but could not express.
Plexa's follow-up I agree with completely as well. I, and I think many others, enjoy watching players and ourselves try out new and different and somewhat entertaining strategies, but unfortunately many of these have already found their way into the strategy graveyard and I fear many, many more will just as many did for Brood War. I do have great fear that what remains among the living will not be what I would hope it to. At the same time, Plexa's ending note that there are still expansions left (grumble about having to pay even more to get the *REAL* game xD), and Brood War certainly helped StarCraft's cause (and there are plenty of other good examples of expansion packs that really helped a game, but I'll cite Dawn of War 2's Chaos Rising expansion which released earlier this year and made a lot of little changes and additions that at first slaughtered balance, but on the whole have made for a vastly superior game that's much more entertaining to watch too), but assuming that an expansion is simply going to revamp the game out of thin air isn't the best premise to ride on (the recent expansion I cited, Chaos Rising for DoW 2, relied heavily on community feedback).
Right, so gj Saracen for formulating into words what many of us felt, and props to Plexa for grounding the issue. Although Plexa, deep down you know you love seeing Valkyries in TvZ and Dark Archons in PvP  Last edit: 2010-07-11 18:42:28 |
| | Orders, Sir! Ready to roll out! |  |
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| WGT-Baal France. July 11 2010 18:40. Posts 387 | Profile Blog # |
| Good read, and yes i feel I lost the excitement... |
| | <3 WGTour.com |  |
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| sluggaslamoo Australia. July 11 2010 19:19. Posts 3602 | Profile Blog # |
On July 11 2010 17:44 TheYango wrote:Great post! I could watch that Cool Mine Booms video all day...
Show nested quote +On July 11 2010 14:53 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Yeah likewise, SC2 has had 7 years of design time plus 12 years of BW evolution, to create a game that should be 100x better than BW from the get-go.
SC2 should have taken what was so captivating in BW and made it even better. IMO SC2 just seems to be riding on the success of BW, and hoping that any change will still lead to a good game.
While I agree with the OP, I disagree strongly with this view. The idea that the developers at Blizzard can systematically go through all the gameplay elements of BW, and pick out the ones that worked and the ones that didn't, is quite frankly ridiculous. I would say that emulating the perfection of BW is virtually an impossible feat, and anyone who went into SC2 expecting the developers to be able to do so, would, in all cases, be sorely disappointed. To expect that is both unrealistic, and unfair to the developers at Blizzard.
I don't even know how to reply, your post just doesn't make any sense. 
I'm just gonna say that Arc System Works did exactly that when creating BlazBlue following GuityGear franchise.
They even hired the pro-gamers to create a tutorial DVD that came with a limited edition pack, which featured many high level moves, some which take ages to master, such as Carl's overpowered infinite grab loop. This would be akin to Blizzard hiring pro-gamers to create a tutorial DVD that show-cased muta-stacking & micro, shuttle reaver, etc.
If a small company like Arc System Works can do this, there is no reason Blizzard can't.
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| Stratos Czech Republic. July 11 2010 19:25. Posts 1637 | Profile Blog # |
I got into Starcraft via watching SC2 beta, it was fun. I switched to BW soon after discovering it because it was way more exciting to watch.
So I have to believe there's something more behind it than just the nostalgy - probably what the article mentions. Good read. |
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| scrdmnttr United States. July 11 2010 19:32. Posts 96 | Profile # |
There's way too much complaining in these forums. Yes the article was well written but it failed to make any tangible point.
Sc2 is less fun to watch? Huh? It's beta - what are you talking about??
So many of you are expecting to be disappointed and not even considering your own arguments.
Sc2 is a great, great game. No, it's not BW but an entirely different game with different kinds of mechanics.
If you're unhappy with the so-called 'lack of micro' then wait a few years for the pros to dazzle you. |
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| valaki Hungary. July 11 2010 19:37. Posts 2198 | Profile # |
On July 11 2010 19:32 scrdmnttr wrote:
There's way too much complaining in these forums. Yes the article was well written but it failed to make any tangible point.
Sc2 is less fun to watch? Huh? It's beta - what are you talking about??
So many of you are expecting to be disappointed and not even considering your own arguments.
Sc2 is a great, great game. No, it's not BW but an entirely different game with different kinds of mechanics.
If you're unhappy with the so-called 'lack of micro' then wait a few years for the pros to dazzle you.
Yes, everything will change in 2 weeks 
Also, very good article, i agree with everything. |
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