On December 04 2011 11:15 xtfftc wrote: Just got home and didn't catch the games... Sounds like I didn't miss a lot though.
G1 was a 9 minute siege tank push with hellion siege tanks and marines. Idra really tried to hold that, did everything. You clearly saw how his mentality has improved.
G2 was a marauder hellion push on Tal Darim.
G3 Idra made 8 roaches which cut into his muta count. Puma then went hardcore double pronged attacks and drops constantly, and the delayed mutas were not eneough to chase off the medievacs before they unloaded. After that it was just drop after drop after drop. When Idra finally stabilized, then a maxed Puma pushed out and won. Puma also made a couple marauders, and took an early 3rd in this game. He metagamed Idra hardcore all thoughout the series.
Btw, just got home??? Isn't it like 2:30 AM in the UK?
Yep, definitely don't regret missing the games...
And I'm usually good at managing to get home on time for to catch Idra's games after a night out..
On December 04 2011 10:27 Pooman wrote: Puma just completely outplayed Idra. Nothing much else to say.
Well he also completely metagamed IdrA. First 2 cheeses. And then the super fast third. But yeah thats what you should do against a player you know so well.
He knew IdrA was going for mutas, so he goes for a timing attack before spire is done. It's not cheese, it's just IdrA being too predictable :/ He either needs to learn to defend those pushes while going for mutas, or he has to switch it up a bit.
No matter how good he is at that style, he's going to lose so many ZvTs if everyone knows exactly what he does every game.
Exactly. It wasn't cheese, it was just a build order that was designed to beat Idra's usual style. Idra has been playing that same style for too long. His ZvT used to look unstoppable, so Puma evolved his TvZ to adapt to that. Idra needs to evolve his ZvT at the same pace if he wants to remain dominant in the match up.
Yeah, he's not playing any worse, but his style is just getting figured out. If he gets to the point where he has mutas, he has a good chance against any terran in the world, so people are hitting him before mutas.
Let's hope that training in Korea will get him back into beast mode ZvT again.
Idra still has some of the best ZvT in the world. His problem in all his matchups is just getting past the early game.
So we're saying pretty much the same thing?
No, youre saying he needs to go back to Korea to become a beast at ZVT AGAIN. I'm saying he STILL is a beast at ZVT regardless.
The games tonight wasn't really "beast" from IdrA's side. It doesn't matter if he's good lategame (which he is) if all he does is lose to pushes before he ever gets there.
RetroAspect Belgium. December 04 2011 12:31. Posts 217
On December 04 2011 10:33 Simonius wrote: Seems to me as they decided that it would be tactically better to send PUMA in for the kill as he has to defend his title.
This is a really ignorant remark. After the 3rd game you could see IdrA smash his headsets on the table. Was that tactically better as well? He has way too big of an ego for a move like that.
Mrvoodoochild1 United States. December 04 2011 13:24. Posts 1437
On December 04 2011 12:31 RetroAspect wrote: To the person who said "metagame the shit out of everyone" : i can't stop laughing.. i really cannot.. roofl
What was worse about the comment you're referring to was that this guy said he should ladder to become better. That was even more laughable.
"let your freak flag fly"
VashTS United States. December 04 2011 13:42. Posts 1541
On December 04 2011 10:41 Lumnis wrote: I have been a massive fan of Idra for a long time now, I've been following him since his days in GSL, but lately his play has been incredibly depressing. He seems to have gone back into the old Idra, not even trying and leaving early in games and doing the same builds over and over. The reason im so critical of Idra is because i truly believe that he has the potential to be the best in the world if he just sits down and i mean REALLY focuses on the areas hes doing so bad in. The last three tournaments have been really depressing for me as an Idra fan, I just want him to do so much better and i know he can
Actually, Just last month he was beastin out, so I dunno what you're talking about...
Also, recently on ladder, he played MONSTEROUSLY well. Even against Toss. When he gets that new style practiced and thought-out more, we will see it in tournaments.
VashTS; 330; Random -- Ranked #9 Pokemon Video Game Player in the World in 2009
ThePlayer33 Australia. December 04 2011 13:43. Posts 2377
On December 04 2011 10:41 Lumnis wrote: I have been a massive fan of Idra for a long time now, I've been following him since his days in GSL, but lately his play has been incredibly depressing. He seems to have gone back into the old Idra, not even trying and leaving early in games and doing the same builds over and over. The reason im so critical of Idra is because i truly believe that he has the potential to be the best in the world if he just sits down and i mean REALLY focuses on the areas hes doing so bad in. The last three tournaments have been really depressing for me as an Idra fan, I just want him to do so much better and i know he can
1/10
EsMuyVien United States. December 04 2011 13:57. Posts 406
People aren't giving Puma any credit whatsoever. He metagamed Idra hard, and no, that doesn't mean "went for all-ins before Mutas popped" like so many people pretend it does.
Contrary to popular belief, Idra has extremely strong early game defence. The reason he can bank 800/800 to pop 7 Mutalisks and Air Upgrades in one go is because of his Hellion defence, and extremely strong ling/bling control that can fend off the inevitable Marine/Tank timing pushes that follows, without investing heavily in static defence or over-committal to T1 units..
The reason Puma crushed him so easily was because he went for two specifically timed attacks designed to hit before Mutas were available, while prioritizing a strong economy to match Idras. The first game, he specifically went Siege Tech first so that he could push long before the Spire finished, unlike most Terrans who go for Marine upgrades first and end up dealing with Ling/Bling/Muta. This forced Idra to use his banked resources on Lings and Banelings, and he couldn't get any Mutas to snipe of tanks and Hellions.
Second game, too many people are harping on the Hellion/Marauder timing. The real issue was that Puma went CC first, which meant the push wasn't all-in in the slightest. Idra held it off, while taking moderate damage, but Puma's economy was 1.5x ahead on SCVs alone, not even counting Mules. If it had been any other player doing an ordinary Hellion/Marauder push, it would have been held, and they would have been on equal economic footing. Puma macroed first, and attacked second.
Third game was brilliant mind games, because he went for a very fast triple Orbital, and Idra went for an uncharacteristic Roach Warren, being scared into expecting heavier aggression with Hellions. Had Puma gone for another 2 base push, it would have been crushed easily. Instead, he played extremely greedy, while Idra invested heavily on some defence. End result, Idra was on equal base with Terran, with lesser income. The end of the game was just Idra being spread across the map by a larger army and a stronger econ.
People trying to act like Idra bombed those games obviously weren't watching the same match I was. He held those pushes a lot better than most players would have (Morrow/Thorzain should be proof enough of that), but Puma simply played to the player, and did it perfectly.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Effay United States. December 04 2011 15:22. Posts 140
On December 04 2011 15:18 WolfintheSheep wrote: People aren't giving Puma any credit whatsoever. He metagamed Idra hard, and no, that doesn't mean "went for all-ins before Mutas popped" like so many people pretend it does.
Contrary to popular belief, Idra has extremely strong early game defence. The reason he can bank 800/800 to pop 7 Mutalisks and Air Upgrades in one go is because of his Hellion defence, and extremely strong ling/bling control that can fend off the inevitable Marine/Tank timing pushes that follows, without investing heavily in static defence or over-committal to T1 units..
The reason Puma crushed him so easily was because he went for two specifically timed attacks designed to hit before Mutas were available, while prioritizing a strong economy to match Idras. The first game, he specifically went Siege Tech first so that he could push long before the Spire finished, unlike most Terrans who go for Marine upgrades first and end up dealing with Ling/Bling/Muta. This forced Idra to use his banked resources on Lings and Banelings, and he couldn't get any Mutas to snipe of tanks and Hellions.
Second game, too many people are harping on the Hellion/Marauder timing. The real issue was that Puma went CC first, which meant the push wasn't all-in in the slightest. Idra held it off, while taking moderate damage, but Puma's economy was 1.5x ahead on SCVs alone, not even counting Mules. If it had been any other player doing an ordinary Hellion/Marauder push, it would have been held, and they would have been on equal economic footing. Puma macroed first, and attacked second.
Third game was brilliant mind games, because he went for a very fast triple Orbital, and Idra went for an uncharacteristic Roach Warren, being scared into expecting heavier aggression with Hellions. Had Puma gone for another 2 base push, it would have been crushed easily. Instead, he played extremely greedy, while Idra invested heavily on some defence. End result, Idra was on equal base with Terran, with lesser income. The end of the game was just Idra being spread across the map by a larger army and a stronger econ.
People trying to act like Idra bombed those games obviously weren't watching the same match I was. He held those pushes a lot better than most players would have (Morrow/Thorzain should be proof enough of that), but Puma simply played to the player, and did it perfectly.
An accurate analysis.
Obsession: The weak minded's name for dedication
Turquoise Turkey. December 04 2011 15:44. Posts 113
On December 04 2011 15:18 WolfintheSheep wrote: People aren't giving Puma any credit whatsoever. He metagamed Idra hard, and no, that doesn't mean "went for all-ins before Mutas popped" like so many people pretend it does.
Contrary to popular belief, Idra has extremely strong early game defence. The reason he can bank 800/800 to pop 7 Mutalisks and Air Upgrades in one go is because of his Hellion defence, and extremely strong ling/bling control that can fend off the inevitable Marine/Tank timing pushes that follows, without investing heavily in static defence or over-committal to T1 units..
The reason Puma crushed him so easily was because he went for two specifically timed attacks designed to hit before Mutas were available, while prioritizing a strong economy to match Idras. The first game, he specifically went Siege Tech first so that he could push long before the Spire finished, unlike most Terrans who go for Marine upgrades first and end up dealing with Ling/Bling/Muta. This forced Idra to use his banked resources on Lings and Banelings, and he couldn't get any Mutas to snipe of tanks and Hellions.
Second game, too many people are harping on the Hellion/Marauder timing. The real issue was that Puma went CC first, which meant the push wasn't all-in in the slightest. Idra held it off, while taking moderate damage, but Puma's economy was 1.5x ahead on SCVs alone, not even counting Mules. If it had been any other player doing an ordinary Hellion/Marauder push, it would have been held, and they would have been on equal economic footing. Puma macroed first, and attacked second.
Third game was brilliant mind games, because he went for a very fast triple Orbital, and Idra went for an uncharacteristic Roach Warren, being scared into expecting heavier aggression with Hellions. Had Puma gone for another 2 base push, it would have been crushed easily. Instead, he played extremely greedy, while Idra invested heavily on some defence. End result, Idra was on equal base with Terran, with lesser income. The end of the game was just Idra being spread across the map by a larger army and a stronger econ.
People trying to act like Idra bombed those games obviously weren't watching the same match I was. He held those pushes a lot better than most players would have (Morrow/Thorzain should be proof enough of that), but Puma simply played to the player, and did it perfectly.
Well put; couldn't agree more.
Here's looking at you, kid.
SpaceFighting New Zealand. December 04 2011 15:48. Posts 681
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ThePlayer33 Australia. December 04 2011 13:43. Posts 2377
