[Movie] The Avengers (Spoilers) - Page 16

Regarding your question about the Hulk, my friends and I were talking about that too. We guessed that since the first incident was provoked/unintentional while the second incident was triggered/initiated by Bruce Banner, he can probably therefor control his anger up to a certain point where he can still maintain his mentality while also being in a lesser form of the Hulk. Especially when you consider that Bruce says his "tip" for controlling the Hulk is that he's just always angry ( it was right before he transforms again), it kinda makes sense that he can control it to that extent.

That criticism certainly does not apply to me, since I provided a list of both positive reasons why Capt. America and negative reasons why the others shouldn't. This exchange is between you and me.


No, what I am saying is not wrong since I said "leadership capability". Being strong is NOT a characteristic relevant for leadership capability, i.e. being an apt leader. It simply isn't.


Did I say that being booksmart was detrimental to being a good leader? No, I said that in itself it was unrelated to being able to be a good combat leader.


Exactly "dude", context. Being an expert in gamma radiation (Banner) is irrelevant when it comes to tactical/leadership knowledge. Being a genius engineer (Stark) is irrelevant when it comes to tactical/leadership knowledge (especially since the technology he's worked on is used by nobody in the fight except himself). Being booksmart in military science and tactical combat would be relevant - it is the case of neither Stark nor Banner.


To reiterate, neither Banner nor Stark have "bookish knowledge" about war and combat. What's more, you're confusing knowledge about strategy, tactics and combat. They were in a combat situation.


I understood the movie perfectly fine - apparently, you didn't. Hulk is not perfectly controlled, and he does not have all the qualities of Dr. Banner. For example, he is not shown as having the ability to form complex sentences. The Hulk is definitely not capable of communicating with others as well as Banner, and he does not control his emotions as well as Banner (even though apparently when Banner deliberately transforms into Hulk, he can "drive" him far better than when the transformation isn't voluntary). Since Banner did not have any leadership qualities to begin with, this makes Hulk a terrible, terrible candidate for leadership.


I did not dispute this.


I did not dispute this, I pointed out that his physical prowess was irrelevant in this context.


You are repeating yourself instead of addressing the arguments I put forward to disqualify Thor.


I certainly did not say he was unqualified to lead, in fact it's not an opinion I share. Instead of using straw men, again, start addressing the actual arguments I put forward to disqualify Thor.


Do you lack confidence in your arguments that badly to rely that much on personal attacks? None of what you just said is relevant to the discussion we're having, namely the capacity of characters (in this case, Hulk) to be apt leaders. I very much enjoyed and am aware of the subtleties of the Banner/Hulk persona, thank you very much. This does not change the fact that Hulk is certainly not able to communicate with others as well as other characters, and being capable to communicate with others is vital as leader.

But Stark/Ironman demonstrated he is very good at combat tactics/strategy in Ironman 1 and Ironman 2. Stark is also the CEO of a large company - a leadership position in itself. Plus it is implied that Stark has more life experience than Captain America (Stark looks to be in his 30s or 40s while Captain America is only 20 to 30 years old if you take out the time Captain America was asleep).

I explained in this thread why Capt. America was both a good option for leader and a better option than everyone else based on only movie elements. Regarding Iron Man, there is no way he would have been a better leader - he has been repeatedly portrayed as extremely individualistic - in fact, S.H.I.E.L.D. assessment of him is that he "doesn't play well with others". He does not exhibit any combat leadership quality - he does his thing, and he does it extremely well.


It is explained by Loki, who mentions that it is Odin who used something alone the lines of "dark energy" or "dark powers" to send Thor back to Earth.


It is apparently because it was a voluntary transformation, not a transformation caused by external - negative - factors like on the carrier. Notice that he does not have absolute control either, it's not like he keeps talking normally with only a different appearance.


I disagree on all accounts. There was a storyline (revolving around the Tesseract), there were character relationships and the characters themselves evolved, and there was a connection built with the audience (everyone rooting for the team and wanting Loki to be defeated - that's one of the reasons the "puny god" moment worked so well, since Loki was interrupted as he was starting another "I'm a god you're a worthless creatures" speech).


I liked X-Men: First class as well. You have to consider that just because you felt no connection with the movie doesn't mean others (so far the overwhelming majority of spectators) felt the same way.

I know to a certain extent the story in the comics. Cap is the leader because he is one of the older (original) members, excelent tactitian, works well in a group using the best qualities of each person and alot of field experience. So far so good.
In the movie, that isn't well exploited. Despite not being the smartest or the strongest, he is put in the command because he is an inspiration to others. He represents the some of the best human qualities like loyalty, bravery and altruism. The problem is that this isn't firmly stated to the rest of the group (nor the viewers that not share the same knowledge of the Avengers lore). Only to Iron Man because the exchange some arguments about it. All the others don't have any good reason to follow Captain's lead.

I think the movie is very well done. My biggest complaint is that there wasn't any scene or chain of events that would make, to the eyes of the team and the viewers, Rogers as the natural leader he was showned to be.

He's good at fighting. That's not tactics or strategy. Being the leader of a company is a general leadership position, combat leadership is very different in nature. Capt. America is trained in combat leadership, not Stark. Also, again, Stark is shown as being individualistic in nature, something which isn't necessary a problem to lead a company but which definitely is one when it comes to leading a small team. Finally, life experience is unrelated to combat leadership experience, of which once again Capt. America has plenty more than Stark.

smart doesn't make him the best leader out of all. Hulk is fricking smart as well, Spiderman (who would eventually join avenger) is also really smart.

Right now, Tony is just a play boy with playful mind, but later on in marvel universe he would get mature and
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So obviously, both are good leaders but the comic version of Tony is a lot more determined and less fooling around

Personally it didn't disturb me all that much that cap. america took charge and I actually think there was some buildup to him doing so. For instance, he only did it after Stark encouraged him to do so. But I do agree that if there was a weak spot in the script it was this and why the Hulk suddenly can coorperate (to a degree, let's not forget that he punches Thor midfight)

Stark demonstrated combat leadership with War Machine when they fought together in Iron Man 2. Also, it doesn't matter that Captain America is trained in combat leadership - what matters is whether Stark respects Captain America to lead the team when they meet. You may be right that over time, Stark would respect Captain America's ability as a combat leader, but they had not worked together for too long up to the point Stark started taking commands from Captain America on the street in New York.

What confuses this issue further is that in the scene to fix the propeller so that the aircraft carrier could stay afloat in the air, it was entirely Stark that lead that scene, with Captain America as the sidekick.