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| Uhnno Netherlands. May 06 2011 07:41. Posts 250 | Profile # |
On May 06 2011 07:39 Sylverin wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 07:35 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:02 Archerofaiur wrote:
How about maps with smaller mains?
also high ground on the edges of bases to protect overlords
Like Lost Temple?  that's a good idea though, you should totally email dustin :D
D.Kim is the one doing game balance. You should mail them both just to be sure.
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| vojnik Macedonia. May 06 2011 07:42. Posts 916 | Profile # |
On May 06 2011 07:40 Chicane wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 07:26 Mailing wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:19 branflakes14 wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:59 Voltaire wrote:
I wonder what Idra will have to say if Nestea wins this GSL..
If Nestea wins, he outclassed his opponents completely. If anyone else wins, their race was why they won.
NesTea barely made it into the GSL by beating Jinro twice and avoiding San while losing to Clide He then gets Fruit -> way outclassed Anypro -> way outclassed sc -> probably will out class Inca and Nada -> will out class NesTea should not lose this GSL now, the stars aligned.
You know... the thing I have always hated about this argument... more specifically that the zerg player is just outclassing their opponents, and their opponents are being carried by their race... is it makes me wonder... Where are all the protoss/terran players who would be good zerg players? Let me put it this way... why are all the players who are capable of playing an underpowered race and overcoming the obstacles all playing zerg? Do you see what I am getting at? It seems like (according to many zerg players) none of the protoss or terran players would ever dream of being a good zerg player. It just so happens that all of the most amazing players are zerg, and they are only playing at around the same level as the other 2 races because they are zerg. Yet again in other words... it just so happened that the people with "the most skill" are all zerg, because if not then that player would be crushing everyone. So not one of these top level players is terran or protoss? Or are they? Who? MVP? MC? I can't word it as well as I wanted... so I'll just leave it at that and see if I get a response.
tbh i would put sanZenith, MMA, bomber up there easy, maybe alicia too
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| taintmachine United States. May 06 2011 07:44. Posts 415 | Profile # |
On May 06 2011 07:40 Crazyeyes wrote:lol, I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic.
Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 07:35 fishjie wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:19 branflakes14 wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:59 Voltaire wrote:
I wonder what Idra will have to say if Nestea wins this GSL..
If Nestea wins, he outclassed his opponents completely. If anyone else wins, their race was why they won.
nailed it perfectly
You know, it's actually possible for that to be true. ;P
of course, it's possible. it's still a stupid conclusion. |
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| Kich United States. May 06 2011 07:44. Posts 338 | Profile # |
On May 06 2011 07:05 FighterHayabusa wrote:
You don't need an algorithm to prove that Zerg can't scout early game lol. That is a fact. What you seem to want to debate is whether or not that actually matters.
But that's objectively untrue, unless you can give a better description of what the early game means? You can drone scout in the early game, estimate their build, and then later confirm it with an overseer. Zerg's can (you can go try this) get an overseer around the 6:30 mark rather easily and even morph their closest overlord into one to make the travel time ~0 seconds. Most good pushes happen around 7 minutes, so you have a 30 second head start to build the proper defenses.
So I guess I'm just confused then, is this not early enough? Because Protoss can't scout earlier than that and Terran's can but it would cripple themselves to do so. Why is this such a big deal for zerg, but not a big deal for any of the other races who are equally as prone to flat out dying from cheese?
Someone made the claim earlier that, for instance against Terran, there were X Y Z many different cheeses and early aggressive builds to worry about and all of them needed such drastically different reactions that not knowing exactly, precisely which attack was coming you would flat out lose--I hate to use the same emphatic word twice, but this is also objectively untrue.
You have queens, spine crawlers, zerglings, and roaches available to you at the beginning of the game. There aren't actually that many combination of these units. I would propose also that if you worked towards getting an "early" overseer (a unit you should desire anyways for it's utility in...scouting...) you could then dump excess gas into upgrades or tech. Notice then that if you were to get upgrades with your new found gas, you would have the option to get spore crawlers rather early in response to virtually any air opening to aid your queens..
Or hey, maybe you don't actually need to get zergling speed the moment the pool finishes, Spanishiwa operates fine without it up towards 40+ supply. So instead of making a ton of queens to defend, you can tech up to overseers with the extra gas and then start getting roaches? Maybe zergling centric-openings aren't all that great in the grand scheme of things--in a similar fashion to Protoss not relying solely on Zealots for the first 8 minutes of the game..
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| Beef Noodles United States. May 06 2011 07:45. Posts 820 | Profile Blog # |
On May 06 2011 07:35 fishjie wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 07:19 branflakes14 wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:59 Voltaire wrote:
I wonder what Idra will have to say if Nestea wins this GSL..
If Nestea wins, he outclassed his opponents completely. If anyone else wins, their race was why they won.
nailed it perfectly
It has nothing to do with winning... how many times do you have to explain it... he is saying that zergs CAN win. But, for zergs to win, they have to guess what the T/P is doing on very limited (inconclusive) information, and blind counter it. This creates a coinflip situation where zergs either have a chance to win a game, or they guessed wrong and straight up get crushed.
This is really interesting because if you look at the recommended games in tourny threads and GSL threads, the ones where zerg wins are almost always recommended (unless its cheese), because its a drawn out game. There are also many unrecommended games where the zerg just looks foolish and dies. Could this be evidence that top zergs are just playing guessing games? (It could be a lot of other things too).
SO TO CLARIFY: Idra says zergs can win, but they have to resort to guessing in order to do so. Idra complains because he sees this as "bad game design." He also implied that terrans and toss's don't have to "guess" so much because they have builds that are safe vs anything in the early game (in the later stages of the game, all races have new ways to scout -- overseer, scans, obs). |
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| MonsieurGrimm Canada. May 06 2011 07:47. Posts 2440 | Profile # |
On May 06 2011 07:35 Liquid`Tyler wrote:also high ground on the edges of bases to protect overlords
and banshees.  |
| | "60% of the time, it works - every time" - Brian Fantana on Double Reactors All The Way // "Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt |
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| zeru Sweden. May 06 2011 07:48. Posts 5851 | Profile Blog # |
On May 06 2011 07:41 Uhnno wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 07:39 Sylverin wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:35 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:02 Archerofaiur wrote:
How about maps with smaller mains?
also high ground on the edges of bases to protect overlords
Like Lost Temple? that's a good idea though, you should totally email dustin :D
D.Kim is the one doing game balance. You should mail them both just to be sure.
Well the question is if an imbalance exists that involves lack of scouting or if it's necessary to be like that for the game to have better balance.
On May 06 2011 07:48 MobiusOne wrote:
get an overseer by the 6:30 mark, are you kidding me, you can't even do that if your doing lair first, try 8:00 minutes or so...
Well that's just a purely uninformed clueless statement. Can you at least try to check what the time would be before making posts like this? Nestea had lair before 6 ingame minutes in the 1st game, which where he did pool first, ling speed, hatch, lair.Last edit: 2011-05-06 07:53:09 |
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| MobiusOne United States. May 06 2011 07:48. Posts 106 | Profile # |
| get an overseer by the 6:30 mark, are you kidding me, you can't even do that if your doing lair first, try 8:00 minutes or so... |
| | "Macro while you macro all day every day" |
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| Baarn United States. May 06 2011 07:50. Posts 2392 | Profile # |
| Or put the detection on a spore crawler and you can research, a... wait....hold on... a spore that you can launch at a selected location, in the evo chamber. Last edit: 2011-05-06 07:50:52 |
| | There's no S in KT. :P |  |
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| TRAP[yoo] Hungary. May 06 2011 07:51. Posts 1930 | Profile # |
On May 06 2011 07:41 Uhnno wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 07:39 Sylverin wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:35 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:02 Archerofaiur wrote:
How about maps with smaller mains?
also high ground on the edges of bases to protect overlords
Like Lost Temple? that's a good idea though, you should totally email dustin :D
D.Kim is the one doing game balance. You should mail them both just to be sure.
we dont need highground directly behind the main. but just a few places around the map were overlords can be placed would help a lot i think.
edit: or making maps were your expansion and main are not reachable through a small ramp. these ramps make ffs so strongLast edit: 2011-05-06 07:53:39 |
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| vojnik Macedonia. May 06 2011 07:51. Posts 916 | Profile # |
On May 06 2011 07:44 Kich wrote:
Zerg's can (you can go try this) get an overseer around the 6:30 mark rather easily and even morph their closest overlord into one to make the travel time ~0 seconds. Most good pushes happen around 7 minutes, so you have a 30 second head start to build the proper defenses.
please learn a bit more how zerg macro develops before posting such nonsense
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| FighterHayabusa United States. May 06 2011 07:51. Posts 90 | Profile # |
On May 06 2011 07:30 Mordiford wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 07:22 FighterHayabusa wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:16 Mordiford wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:09 FighterHayabusa wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:03 Mordiford wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:58 FighterHayabusa wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:56 zeru wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:52 FighterHayabusa wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:49 zeru wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:45 FighterHayabusa wrote:
[quote]
Win rate means next to nothing in this discussion. There are simply too many variables to bring it down to just that one metric.
Exactly what my point was. Balance discussion is dumb because there is too much to take into account and there will always be a bit more things to consider. So all we know right now is that zergs do win stuff, protoss do win stuff, terrans do win stuff. Let the meta game evolve, balance qq goes nowhere.
That is a silly way to think. Just because a problem is large and complicated doesn't mean you shouldn't start breaking it into pieces and trying to figure it out.
Ok, then I have a question for you. Where do you want to get with the discussion, what do you want to conclude, what information should be used when scientifically breaking down where things are wrong? If we actually would want to prove something is imbalanced we would have to establish how we would go about doing it. The only actual unbiased team that has the data, tools and knowlege (afaik) is blizzard, at blizzcon they discussed their tools and how they do this, We are all (most of us at least) biased, our experiences, data, knowlege aren't good, qualitative and quantitative enough.
The same place Idra is hoping to get. He wants to get people to think about solutions to the problem that won't break other aspects of the game. You don't do that by just sitting back and waiting for someone else to find a solution that may or may not exist.
Yes, but from a balance perspective that's not the issue. From that perspective, you first have to identify that assumption A, B and C are true and can't be overcome by some other advantage the race has as the game progresses overall. If we follow the same logic IdrA did, which was basically "A, B, C, Therefor D" without actually focussing on whether any of these are true, we won't get anywhere... Just like right now, we aren't getting anywhere. In terms of figuring out new strategies, it's fine... From a balance perspective it doesn't work because if it did, we'd be assuming every racial disadvantage as a balance issue when that's just variation in the game.
I can see where you are going with this line of thinking, and I somewhat agree; however, those don't break the game. Lack of early scouting for Zerg makes it a guessing game, and I wouldn't just call that a disadvantage inherent in the race. It is something that is clearly broken and needs to be fixed because otherwise we are just left to playing odds. I'd rather see games decided on skill than luck.
I wouldn't agree there though, because it's not something that is clearly broken, if there were a guessing game involved in this sense, considering the openings available, you'd have something like a 20% chance of getting it right. Even with some wiggle room in the scene, the win rate would be substantially lower with something inherently broken. I don't think it's a situation where Zerg's success is decided by luck over skill, at all... They'd all have to be retardedly lucky to have the win-rate they currently have.
You are making the assumption that the defense for all these builds are mutually exclusive, and that isn't the case. While there is more than likely an optimal defense for every build, that doesn't mean that there isn't overlap. IE. Certain zerg openings can defend against a wide variety of these builds, but none will defend them all. The win rate being 50% doesn't mean there isn't a problem there. I'm an actuary, probability is the realm I live in, and I'm telling you that these win rates prove nothing either way.
But what do we have to suggest that this is a problem? You have a set of builds that are completely defensive but gives you a minor setback, but Zergs don't want to do that. There are builds that are risky that work when your opponent is taking the opposite risk. There are a number of things you have to prove on your way to proving that this is a problem... An actuary, that's pretty cool, I'm a statistician for NASA... Seriously, if you can explain to me why these win rates are irrelevant that would more helpful then simply stating that they're irrelevant. Either way, the result would be Zergs have substantially less chance to win since they have a major disadvantage the other races don't have, unless every Zerg player happens to be ten times better than the players of other races, which once again, there's no way to prove, and once again I don't think that's the case.
They don't matter because there is a player involved in them mostly 
Do you work at JSC? I live 10 minutes from there.
Edit: Basically what I am saying is what percentage of Zerg are winning. IE. Are the bulk of those wins distributed to relatively few players, because that means nothing other than those few are very good.Last edit: 2011-05-06 08:03:31 |
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| Chicane United States. May 06 2011 07:53. Posts 6566 | Profile # |
On May 06 2011 07:45 Beef Noodles wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 07:35 fishjie wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:19 branflakes14 wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:59 Voltaire wrote:
I wonder what Idra will have to say if Nestea wins this GSL..
If Nestea wins, he outclassed his opponents completely. If anyone else wins, their race was why they won.
nailed it perfectly
It has nothing to do with winning... how many times do you have to explain it... he is saying that zergs CAN win. But, for zergs to win, they have to guess what the T/P is doing on very limited (inconclusive) information, and blind counter it. This creates a coinflip situation where zergs either have a chance to win a game, or they guessed wrong and straight up get crushed. This is really interesting because if you look at the recommended games in tourny threads and GSL threads, the ones where zerg wins are almost always recommended (unless its cheese), because its a drawn out game. There are also many unrecommended games where the zerg just looks foolish and dies. Could this be evidence that top zergs are just playing guessing games? (It could be a lot of other things too). SO TO CLARIFY: Idra says zergs can win, but they have to resort to guessing in order to do so. Idra complains because he sees this as "bad game design." He also implied that terrans and toss's don't have to "guess" so much because they have builds that are safe vs anything in the early game (in the later stages of the game, all races have new ways to scout -- overseer, scans, obs).
Well I can't help but agree that zerg is quite poorly designed... and I actually have since the beta. That being said, poor design has nothing to do with balance. Even if they are poorly designed, zerglings could have 1000 health and do 30 dps and zerg would be over powered... so design itself has nothing to do directly with balance (though a well designed game is much more easy to balance, and of course leads to the better player winning more often).
So the point I am getting at is, if you just stay away from balance and look at Tyler's and IdrA's perspective you can see that the game design of zerg is quite bad to the point where even if the game is "balanced" as in the win percentages are even, zergs are more often put in coin flip situations because of the way the game is designed (but that does not mean they are imbalanced). It simply means that the opponent can take risks and the zerg player may be on the worse end of the risk.
Just to clarify, I am not saying zerg is or isn't balanced... simply that poor design is not directly correlated with balance.
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| MrCon France. May 06 2011 07:53. Posts 20368 | Profile # |
On May 06 2011 07:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 07:01 MrCon wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:48 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:39 MrCon wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:29 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:23 MrCon wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:14 stk01001 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Quote's from Nestea's latest interview after his GSL matches:
"There’s not much a zerg player can prepare mechanically for the match. Rather, you have to design strategies so that you see the flow of your opponent’s race and playstyle and make it difficult for him to proceed. When zergs win, I would say you have to be a bit ‘lucky."
"I think playing zerg right now is really difficult. There isn’t a solution that you can just find. I think it is something that I will have to find by spending time on and studying the matchups. I feel a bit of pressure and responsibilities to do so (for all zerg players)." Coming from arguably the best zerg player in Korea right now and maybe the world.. so really it's BS when people say "no other zergs" feel the way Idra does... in fact most top zergs agree with Idra, specifically korean zergs... not saying there's no solutions out there.. but it's ridiculous when people try to argue that in the current state of the game there is no problems with zerg....
Poor Nestea is like idra who's life's so hard that he just won a 5k tourney, with his GSL title and his royal road to a 2nd title with only weak opposition left. Sorry, I'm sarcastic but hearing that after 100000$ of winnings makes me angry. Perhaps he thinks protoss and terrans have it easy, when MC and MVP are whining about their race too, I tend to take no complain seriously. Nestea had one rough GSL, MKP, MC too, MVP even went to code A. Perhaps his training sessions are hard, but at least result wise, and that goes for idra too, I don't see any reason for complaining.
Most zergs would rather play straight up games than leave their results to chance, but apparently straight up games don't win you tournaments. IdrA said he's doing retarded cheeses because that's the only way to win, and now Nestea is somewhat echoing that sentiment.
But terrans and protosses are doing retarded cheeses too. That's an important part of the game to stabilize the metagame, or keep your opponent guessing if you prefer. GSL spoiler nestea vs anypro game 1 below : Zerg has a culture of seeing aggressive play as bad play (influenced a lot by idra). This morning, when nestea rolled anypro in game 1 with 4 bases vs 2 (or 1.5), zergs players were downplaying his win because "he allined". It's like that, aggressive zerg play has a bad reputation to zerg players themselves. So when the proper counter to a strategy is just "go fucking kill him", they don't want to accept it, because they think it's bad play (or bad game design). And that whole mindset is stopping zergs to evolve (which is less and less true, as idra and nestea are bitching about it but still using it and winning with it, so I hope that zerg players will follow their actions and not their paroles)
So you would rather play rock paper scissors because it's balanced, even though it takes no skill and is entirely chance-based? It's shitty game design to have the players win by blind countering each other instead of outplaying each other. Sure, allin plays have their place - they're there to keep players honest, but when allin becomes the standard is when the game is no longer worth playing imo.
I don't get where you see any blind counter in this. (perhaps in TvZ ? but no, even in TvZ I don't see what that means in practice). Unless you think nestea blind countered something ? He reacted. Losira same. Sheth yesterday same. Vibe yesterday same. Allins are only standard until the other race can defend it a good % of the time. And that mean that when allin are not effective anymore, that's because the other race builds have changed (in general for something less greedy). I don't like examples but we can assume the timeline of ZvP evolution would be this : - protoss stomping zergs with deathball - zergs starts to be aggressive early, stomping toss (current situation in GSL and NASL) - toss has to play defensively, so gets deathball later and can't take a 3rd as easily as before (expected development) (we're not yet here) - a new equilibrium is found, where both races can play a macro game, both races knowing that if they cut corners they take the risk to die early - .....(new builds are found, well, the matchup still evolve) Currently zergs refuse to accept the 2nd part is necessary to attain their ultimate goal : 100% of mAcRo GaMeS.
The problem is that zerg standard can't defend some allins from the other two races (biggest one I can think of is the nexus-cancel into 5gate). You need to blind counter that and make a bunch of units/spines or you risk dying to it. Every single zerg I've seen who went up against that either blind countered it or died to it. ZvT earlygame is in a decent place right now, although it's still very hard to tell between a marine/scv all-in and an expand. But ZvP earlygame is so ambiguous it isn't funny.
But the nexus cancel to 5 gates allin is himself one the the numerous protoss builds that dies to the losira's 2 hatchs roachling push. (I call it losira's build even if technically this build exist forever just for convenience). I agree that the nexus cancel allin is powerful and not scoutable until the last second (the cancel), but this build punishes a zerg who doesn't build an early warren, who overdrone/takes a fast 3rd. If you you wait for the cancel to use your larvas (just the larvas from the last 2 injects) to see if cancel or not and make 10 roaches if cancel, you don't die to it. So the build force a zerg to waste a little eco to be safe, no problem imo. (and you can recognize it to some little signs, like the P puts pylon at the bottom of his ramp, makes a nexus but no canon or forge or any other building outside his main, which is very characteristic that a cancel will occur).
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| MobiusOne United States. May 06 2011 07:58. Posts 106 | Profile # |
On May 06 2011 07:53 MrCon wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 07:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:01 MrCon wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:48 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:39 MrCon wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:29 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:23 MrCon wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:14 stk01001 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Quote's from Nestea's latest interview after his GSL matches:
"There’s not much a zerg player can prepare mechanically for the match. Rather, you have to design strategies so that you see the flow of your opponent’s race and playstyle and make it difficult for him to proceed. When zergs win, I would say you have to be a bit ‘lucky."
"I think playing zerg right now is really difficult. There isn’t a solution that you can just find. I think it is something that I will have to find by spending time on and studying the matchups. I feel a bit of pressure and responsibilities to do so (for all zerg players)." Coming from arguably the best zerg player in Korea right now and maybe the world.. so really it's BS when people say "no other zergs" feel the way Idra does... in fact most top zergs agree with Idra, specifically korean zergs... not saying there's no solutions out there.. but it's ridiculous when people try to argue that in the current state of the game there is no problems with zerg....
Poor Nestea is like idra who's life's so hard that he just won a 5k tourney, with his GSL title and his royal road to a 2nd title with only weak opposition left. Sorry, I'm sarcastic but hearing that after 100000$ of winnings makes me angry. Perhaps he thinks protoss and terrans have it easy, when MC and MVP are whining about their race too, I tend to take no complain seriously. Nestea had one rough GSL, MKP, MC too, MVP even went to code A. Perhaps his training sessions are hard, but at least result wise, and that goes for idra too, I don't see any reason for complaining.
Most zergs would rather play straight up games than leave their results to chance, but apparently straight up games don't win you tournaments. IdrA said he's doing retarded cheeses because that's the only way to win, and now Nestea is somewhat echoing that sentiment.
But terrans and protosses are doing retarded cheeses too. That's an important part of the game to stabilize the metagame, or keep your opponent guessing if you prefer. GSL spoiler nestea vs anypro game 1 below : Zerg has a culture of seeing aggressive play as bad play (influenced a lot by idra). This morning, when nestea rolled anypro in game 1 with 4 bases vs 2 (or 1.5), zergs players were downplaying his win because "he allined". It's like that, aggressive zerg play has a bad reputation to zerg players themselves. So when the proper counter to a strategy is just "go fucking kill him", they don't want to accept it, because they think it's bad play (or bad game design). And that whole mindset is stopping zergs to evolve (which is less and less true, as idra and nestea are bitching about it but still using it and winning with it, so I hope that zerg players will follow their actions and not their paroles)
So you would rather play rock paper scissors because it's balanced, even though it takes no skill and is entirely chance-based? It's shitty game design to have the players win by blind countering each other instead of outplaying each other. Sure, allin plays have their place - they're there to keep players honest, but when allin becomes the standard is when the game is no longer worth playing imo.
I don't get where you see any blind counter in this. (perhaps in TvZ ? but no, even in TvZ I don't see what that means in practice). Unless you think nestea blind countered something ? He reacted. Losira same. Sheth yesterday same. Vibe yesterday same. Allins are only standard until the other race can defend it a good % of the time. And that mean that when allin are not effective anymore, that's because the other race builds have changed (in general for something less greedy). I don't like examples but we can assume the timeline of ZvP evolution would be this : - protoss stomping zergs with deathball - zergs starts to be aggressive early, stomping toss (current situation in GSL and NASL) - toss has to play defensively, so gets deathball later and can't take a 3rd as easily as before (expected development) (we're not yet here) - a new equilibrium is found, where both races can play a macro game, both races knowing that if they cut corners they take the risk to die early - .....(new builds are found, well, the matchup still evolve) Currently zergs refuse to accept the 2nd part is necessary to attain their ultimate goal : 100% of mAcRo GaMeS.
The problem is that zerg standard can't defend some allins from the other two races (biggest one I can think of is the nexus-cancel into 5gate). You need to blind counter that and make a bunch of units/spines or you risk dying to it. Every single zerg I've seen who went up against that either blind countered it or died to it. ZvT earlygame is in a decent place right now, although it's still very hard to tell between a marine/scv all-in and an expand. But ZvP earlygame is so ambiguous it isn't funny.
But the nexus cancel to 5 gates allin is himself one the the numerous protoss builds that dies to the losira's 2 hatchs roachling push. (I call it losira's build even if technically this build exist forever just for convenience). I agree that the nexus cancel allin is powerful and not scoutable until the last second (the cancel), but this build punishes a zerg who doesn't build an early warren, who overdrone/takes a fast 3rd. If you you wait for the cancel to use your larvas (just the larvas from the last 2 injects) to see if cancel or not and make 10 roaches if cancel, you don't die to it. So the build force a zerg to waste a little eco to be safe, no problem imo. (and you can recognize it to some little signs, like the P puts pylon at the bottom of his ramp, makes a nexus but no canon or forge or any other building outside his main, which is very characteristic that a cancel will occur).
Really, 10 roaches..., your going to leave 750 minerals and 250 gas just lying around, waiting to see if they cancel. No other race has to macro poorly in order to stay safe... wtf
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| vojnik Macedonia. May 06 2011 08:00. Posts 916 | Profile # |
On May 06 2011 07:53 MrCon wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 07:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:01 MrCon wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:48 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:39 MrCon wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:29 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:23 MrCon wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:14 stk01001 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Quote's from Nestea's latest interview after his GSL matches:
"There’s not much a zerg player can prepare mechanically for the match. Rather, you have to design strategies so that you see the flow of your opponent’s race and playstyle and make it difficult for him to proceed. When zergs win, I would say you have to be a bit ‘lucky."
"I think playing zerg right now is really difficult. There isn’t a solution that you can just find. I think it is something that I will have to find by spending time on and studying the matchups. I feel a bit of pressure and responsibilities to do so (for all zerg players)." Coming from arguably the best zerg player in Korea right now and maybe the world.. so really it's BS when people say "no other zergs" feel the way Idra does... in fact most top zergs agree with Idra, specifically korean zergs... not saying there's no solutions out there.. but it's ridiculous when people try to argue that in the current state of the game there is no problems with zerg....
Poor Nestea is like idra who's life's so hard that he just won a 5k tourney, with his GSL title and his royal road to a 2nd title with only weak opposition left. Sorry, I'm sarcastic but hearing that after 100000$ of winnings makes me angry. Perhaps he thinks protoss and terrans have it easy, when MC and MVP are whining about their race too, I tend to take no complain seriously. Nestea had one rough GSL, MKP, MC too, MVP even went to code A. Perhaps his training sessions are hard, but at least result wise, and that goes for idra too, I don't see any reason for complaining.
Most zergs would rather play straight up games than leave their results to chance, but apparently straight up games don't win you tournaments. IdrA said he's doing retarded cheeses because that's the only way to win, and now Nestea is somewhat echoing that sentiment.
But terrans and protosses are doing retarded cheeses too. That's an important part of the game to stabilize the metagame, or keep your opponent guessing if you prefer. GSL spoiler nestea vs anypro game 1 below : Zerg has a culture of seeing aggressive play as bad play (influenced a lot by idra). This morning, when nestea rolled anypro in game 1 with 4 bases vs 2 (or 1.5), zergs players were downplaying his win because "he allined". It's like that, aggressive zerg play has a bad reputation to zerg players themselves. So when the proper counter to a strategy is just "go fucking kill him", they don't want to accept it, because they think it's bad play (or bad game design). And that whole mindset is stopping zergs to evolve (which is less and less true, as idra and nestea are bitching about it but still using it and winning with it, so I hope that zerg players will follow their actions and not their paroles)
So you would rather play rock paper scissors because it's balanced, even though it takes no skill and is entirely chance-based? It's shitty game design to have the players win by blind countering each other instead of outplaying each other. Sure, allin plays have their place - they're there to keep players honest, but when allin becomes the standard is when the game is no longer worth playing imo.
I don't get where you see any blind counter in this. (perhaps in TvZ ? but no, even in TvZ I don't see what that means in practice). Unless you think nestea blind countered something ? He reacted. Losira same. Sheth yesterday same. Vibe yesterday same. Allins are only standard until the other race can defend it a good % of the time. And that mean that when allin are not effective anymore, that's because the other race builds have changed (in general for something less greedy). I don't like examples but we can assume the timeline of ZvP evolution would be this : - protoss stomping zergs with deathball - zergs starts to be aggressive early, stomping toss (current situation in GSL and NASL) - toss has to play defensively, so gets deathball later and can't take a 3rd as easily as before (expected development) (we're not yet here) - a new equilibrium is found, where both races can play a macro game, both races knowing that if they cut corners they take the risk to die early - .....(new builds are found, well, the matchup still evolve) Currently zergs refuse to accept the 2nd part is necessary to attain their ultimate goal : 100% of mAcRo GaMeS.
The problem is that zerg standard can't defend some allins from the other two races (biggest one I can think of is the nexus-cancel into 5gate). You need to blind counter that and make a bunch of units/spines or you risk dying to it. Every single zerg I've seen who went up against that either blind countered it or died to it. ZvT earlygame is in a decent place right now, although it's still very hard to tell between a marine/scv all-in and an expand. But ZvP earlygame is so ambiguous it isn't funny.
But the nexus cancel to 5 gates allin is himself one the the numerous protoss builds that dies to the losira's 2 hatchs roachling push. (I call it losira's build even if technically this build exist forever just for convenience). I agree that the nexus cancel allin is powerful and not scoutable until the last second (the cancel), but this build punishes a zerg who doesn't build an early warren, who overdrone/takes a fast 3rd. If you you wait for the cancel to use your larvas (just the larvas from the last 2 injects) to see if cancel or not and make 10 roaches if cancel, you don't die to it. So the build force a zerg to waste a little eco to be safe, no problem imo. (and you can recognize it to some little signs, like the P puts pylon at the bottom of his ramp, makes a nexus but no canon or forge or any other building outside his main, which is very characteristic that a cancel will occur).
and if he actually goes for fast expand and you do not drone up you are behind and ofc if you do not get ur lair and later he decided to 6 gate you, guess what?
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| MrCon France. May 06 2011 08:02. Posts 20368 | Profile # |
On May 06 2011 08:00 vojnik wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 07:53 MrCon wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:01 MrCon wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:48 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:39 MrCon wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:29 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:23 MrCon wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:14 stk01001 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Quote's from Nestea's latest interview after his GSL matches:
"There’s not much a zerg player can prepare mechanically for the match. Rather, you have to design strategies so that you see the flow of your opponent’s race and playstyle and make it difficult for him to proceed. When zergs win, I would say you have to be a bit ‘lucky."
"I think playing zerg right now is really difficult. There isn’t a solution that you can just find. I think it is something that I will have to find by spending time on and studying the matchups. I feel a bit of pressure and responsibilities to do so (for all zerg players)." Coming from arguably the best zerg player in Korea right now and maybe the world.. so really it's BS when people say "no other zergs" feel the way Idra does... in fact most top zergs agree with Idra, specifically korean zergs... not saying there's no solutions out there.. but it's ridiculous when people try to argue that in the current state of the game there is no problems with zerg....
Poor Nestea is like idra who's life's so hard that he just won a 5k tourney, with his GSL title and his royal road to a 2nd title with only weak opposition left. Sorry, I'm sarcastic but hearing that after 100000$ of winnings makes me angry. Perhaps he thinks protoss and terrans have it easy, when MC and MVP are whining about their race too, I tend to take no complain seriously. Nestea had one rough GSL, MKP, MC too, MVP even went to code A. Perhaps his training sessions are hard, but at least result wise, and that goes for idra too, I don't see any reason for complaining.
Most zergs would rather play straight up games than leave their results to chance, but apparently straight up games don't win you tournaments. IdrA said he's doing retarded cheeses because that's the only way to win, and now Nestea is somewhat echoing that sentiment.
But terrans and protosses are doing retarded cheeses too. That's an important part of the game to stabilize the metagame, or keep your opponent guessing if you prefer. GSL spoiler nestea vs anypro game 1 below : Zerg has a culture of seeing aggressive play as bad play (influenced a lot by idra). This morning, when nestea rolled anypro in game 1 with 4 bases vs 2 (or 1.5), zergs players were downplaying his win because "he allined". It's like that, aggressive zerg play has a bad reputation to zerg players themselves. So when the proper counter to a strategy is just "go fucking kill him", they don't want to accept it, because they think it's bad play (or bad game design). And that whole mindset is stopping zergs to evolve (which is less and less true, as idra and nestea are bitching about it but still using it and winning with it, so I hope that zerg players will follow their actions and not their paroles)
So you would rather play rock paper scissors because it's balanced, even though it takes no skill and is entirely chance-based? It's shitty game design to have the players win by blind countering each other instead of outplaying each other. Sure, allin plays have their place - they're there to keep players honest, but when allin becomes the standard is when the game is no longer worth playing imo.
I don't get where you see any blind counter in this. (perhaps in TvZ ? but no, even in TvZ I don't see what that means in practice). Unless you think nestea blind countered something ? He reacted. Losira same. Sheth yesterday same. Vibe yesterday same. Allins are only standard until the other race can defend it a good % of the time. And that mean that when allin are not effective anymore, that's because the other race builds have changed (in general for something less greedy). I don't like examples but we can assume the timeline of ZvP evolution would be this : - protoss stomping zergs with deathball - zergs starts to be aggressive early, stomping toss (current situation in GSL and NASL) - toss has to play defensively, so gets deathball later and can't take a 3rd as easily as before (expected development) (we're not yet here) - a new equilibrium is found, where both races can play a macro game, both races knowing that if they cut corners they take the risk to die early - .....(new builds are found, well, the matchup still evolve) Currently zergs refuse to accept the 2nd part is necessary to attain their ultimate goal : 100% of mAcRo GaMeS.
The problem is that zerg standard can't defend some allins from the other two races (biggest one I can think of is the nexus-cancel into 5gate). You need to blind counter that and make a bunch of units/spines or you risk dying to it. Every single zerg I've seen who went up against that either blind countered it or died to it. ZvT earlygame is in a decent place right now, although it's still very hard to tell between a marine/scv all-in and an expand. But ZvP earlygame is so ambiguous it isn't funny.
But the nexus cancel to 5 gates allin is himself one the the numerous protoss builds that dies to the losira's 2 hatchs roachling push. (I call it losira's build even if technically this build exist forever just for convenience). I agree that the nexus cancel allin is powerful and not scoutable until the last second (the cancel), but this build punishes a zerg who doesn't build an early warren, who overdrone/takes a fast 3rd. If you you wait for the cancel to use your larvas (just the larvas from the last 2 injects) to see if cancel or not and make 10 roaches if cancel, you don't die to it. So the build force a zerg to waste a little eco to be safe, no problem imo. (and you can recognize it to some little signs, like the P puts pylon at the bottom of his ramp, makes a nexus but no canon or forge or any other building outside his main, which is very characteristic that a cancel will occur).
and if he actually goes for fast expand and you do not drone up you are behind and ofc if you do not get ur lair and later he decided to 6 gate you, guess what?
Ok, I'll stop here. Care to explain how the zerg is "behind" ? Between you and the guy above you we have the caricature of why balance can't be discussed. |
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| vojnik Macedonia. May 06 2011 08:03. Posts 916 | Profile # |
On May 06 2011 07:48 zeru wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 07:41 Uhnno wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:39 Sylverin wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:35 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:02 Archerofaiur wrote:
How about maps with smaller mains?
also high ground on the edges of bases to protect overlords
Like Lost Temple? that's a good idea though, you should totally email dustin :D
D.Kim is the one doing game balance. You should mail them both just to be sure.
Well the question is if an imbalance exists that involves lack of scouting or if it's necessary to be like that for the game to have better balance.
Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 07:48 MobiusOne wrote:
get an overseer by the 6:30 mark, are you kidding me, you can't even do that if your doing lair first, try 8:00 minutes or so...
Well that's just a purely uninformed clueless statement. Can you at least try to check what the time would be before making posts like this? Nestea had lair before 6 ingame minutes in the 1st game, which where he did pool first, ling speed, hatch, lair.
after scouting forge expand you know an immediate attack is impossible and he went for that specific / unusual strat just to execute his crawler push, cmon !
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| MrSexington United States. May 06 2011 08:04. Posts 1726 | Profile Blog # |
So, IdrA won't be streaming for the next 2 days. Does this mean that the bet is still on and JP will still have to buy him drinks? I heard the commentary was hilarious... but I missed out.
(See his tweet for the reason why. I'm not going to repeat it here.) |
| | 12 Years of Ultima Online - www.uothief.com - Twitter @UOThief |  |
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| FighterHayabusa United States. May 06 2011 08:04. Posts 90 | Profile # |
On May 06 2011 08:02 MrCon wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 08:00 vojnik wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:53 MrCon wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
On May 06 2011 07:01 MrCon wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:48 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:39 MrCon wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:29 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:23 MrCon wrote:
On May 06 2011 06:14 stk01001 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Quote's from Nestea's latest interview after his GSL matches:
"There’s not much a zerg player can prepare mechanically for the match. Rather, you have to design strategies so that you see the flow of your opponent’s race and playstyle and make it difficult for him to proceed. When zergs win, I would say you have to be a bit ‘lucky."
"I think playing zerg right now is really difficult. There isn’t a solution that you can just find. I think it is something that I will have to find by spending time on and studying the matchups. I feel a bit of pressure and responsibilities to do so (for all zerg players)." Coming from arguably the best zerg player in Korea right now and maybe the world.. so really it's BS when people say "no other zergs" feel the way Idra does... in fact most top zergs agree with Idra, specifically korean zergs... not saying there's no solutions out there.. but it's ridiculous when people try to argue that in the current state of the game there is no problems with zerg....
Poor Nestea is like idra who's life's so hard that he just won a 5k tourney, with his GSL title and his royal road to a 2nd title with only weak opposition left. Sorry, I'm sarcastic but hearing that after 100000$ of winnings makes me angry. Perhaps he thinks protoss and terrans have it easy, when MC and MVP are whining about their race too, I tend to take no complain seriously. Nestea had one rough GSL, MKP, MC too, MVP even went to code A. Perhaps his training sessions are hard, but at least result wise, and that goes for idra too, I don't see any reason for complaining.
Most zergs would rather play straight up games than leave their results to chance, but apparently straight up games don't win you tournaments. IdrA said he's doing retarded cheeses because that's the only way to win, and now Nestea is somewhat echoing that sentiment.
But terrans and protosses are doing retarded cheeses too. That's an important part of the game to stabilize the metagame, or keep your opponent guessing if you prefer. GSL spoiler nestea vs anypro game 1 below : Zerg has a culture of seeing aggressive play as bad play (influenced a lot by idra). This morning, when nestea rolled anypro in game 1 with 4 bases vs 2 (or 1.5), zergs players were downplaying his win because "he allined". It's like that, aggressive zerg play has a bad reputation to zerg players themselves. So when the proper counter to a strategy is just "go fucking kill him", they don't want to accept it, because they think it's bad play (or bad game design). And that whole mindset is stopping zergs to evolve (which is less and less true, as idra and nestea are bitching about it but still using it and winning with it, so I hope that zerg players will follow their actions and not their paroles)
So you would rather play rock paper scissors because it's balanced, even though it takes no skill and is entirely chance-based? It's shitty game design to have the players win by blind countering each other instead of outplaying each other. Sure, allin plays have their place - they're there to keep players honest, but when allin becomes the standard is when the game is no longer worth playing imo.
I don't get where you see any blind counter in this. (perhaps in TvZ ? but no, even in TvZ I don't see what that means in practice). Unless you think nestea blind countered something ? He reacted. Losira same. Sheth yesterday same. Vibe yesterday same. Allins are only standard until the other race can defend it a good % of the time. And that mean that when allin are not effective anymore, that's because the other race builds have changed (in general for something less greedy). I don't like examples but we can assume the timeline of ZvP evolution would be this : - protoss stomping zergs with deathball - zergs starts to be aggressive early, stomping toss (current situation in GSL and NASL) - toss has to play defensively, so gets deathball later and can't take a 3rd as easily as before (expected development) (we're not yet here) - a new equilibrium is found, where both races can play a macro game, both races knowing that if they cut corners they take the risk to die early - .....(new builds are found, well, the matchup still evolve) Currently zergs refuse to accept the 2nd part is necessary to attain their ultimate goal : 100% of mAcRo GaMeS.
The problem is that zerg standard can't defend some allins from the other two races (biggest one I can think of is the nexus-cancel into 5gate). You need to blind counter that and make a bunch of units/spines or you risk dying to it. Every single zerg I've seen who went up against that either blind countered it or died to it. ZvT earlygame is in a decent place right now, although it's still very hard to tell between a marine/scv all-in and an expand. But ZvP earlygame is so ambiguous it isn't funny.
But the nexus cancel to 5 gates allin is himself one the the numerous protoss builds that dies to the losira's 2 hatchs roachling push. (I call it losira's build even if technically this build exist forever just for convenience). I agree that the nexus cancel allin is powerful and not scoutable until the last second (the cancel), but this build punishes a zerg who doesn't build an early warren, who overdrone/takes a fast 3rd. If you you wait for the cancel to use your larvas (just the larvas from the last 2 injects) to see if cancel or not and make 10 roaches if cancel, you don't die to it. So the build force a zerg to waste a little eco to be safe, no problem imo. (and you can recognize it to some little signs, like the P puts pylon at the bottom of his ramp, makes a nexus but no canon or forge or any other building outside his main, which is very characteristic that a cancel will occur).
and if he actually goes for fast expand and you do not drone up you are behind and ofc if you do not get ur lair and later he decided to 6 gate you, guess what?
Ok, I'll stop here. Care to explain how the zerg is "behind" ? Between you and the guy above you we have the caricature of why balance can't be discussed.
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