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| msl Germany. April 25 2012 05:54. Posts 230 | Profile # |
On April 25 2012 05:38 sickoota wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 05:29 msl wrote:
On April 25 2012 04:48 sickoota wrote:
I'll give up on using the word "fan", but clearly those who value quality of gameplay over everything else must be said to be more engaged and interested in starcraft the game than those who choose to watch a tournament with better everything else.
On April 25 2012 04:48 sickoota wrote:
You seem insulted by the fact I am insinuating you are less engaged in gameplay than someone who watched MLG when you admit you choose what tournament to watch based on factors other than gameplay...
No, but people could be upset that you think you're more engaged and interessted in Starcraft because you're prioritising gameplay over other aspects. Who is more engaged in Starcraft, a guy that organizes a Barcraft but is in bronze league or a retired pro that still watches the stream with the best gameplay and has a real understanding of whats going on but never does anything but watch?
As nony said arguing semantics is stupid, so I stopped. If you were a slightly more astute reader you would've noticed I wrote "more engaged and interested in starcraft the game" as opposed to your hypothetical bronize who would be engaged in the social/organization aspect of the competitive starcraft scene. And so the answer to your question was right in front of you all along.
Saying that arguing semantics is stupid when trying to understand why people mistook your words is pretty stupid itself in my book.
I do not find arguing semantics stupid, as my interest in this argument was largely based on explaining (and understanding myself in the process of explanation) why people were upset. If you want to know why people are upset at something being said semantics is actually your tool of choice.
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 Xxio Canada. April 25 2012 05:55. Posts 4441 | Profile Blog # |
| There is something wrong with the people in this thread. |
| | KTY |  |
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 Chriscras Korea (South). April 25 2012 05:57. Posts 2738 | Profile Blog # |
| So new show on Thursday right? |
| | "En taro adun, Executor." |  |
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| Mindflow Korea (South). April 25 2012 06:00. Posts 308 | Profile # |
| Lets hope so, How long has it been down for -_- |
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| Dreadwolf Canada. April 25 2012 07:32. Posts 210 | Profile # |
In a far far far awayland in the form of an anime or animated movie...
Arthosis - My korean spy network informed that a troll has landed, the forums will be overrun if we do noting.Threat level is estimated aproximatly at 9.
Day9 - Oh no, not again, its too high to send the fan legions, they could be harmed, we MUST deploy the pro gamer Team at once!
Jp - Agreed, activation granted - autorization code Gradiant, Indy, Indy, Fireweed, Permafrost, Vodka; Progammer Nony and InControll deploy!
Day9 - Standar build guys! Nony - You keep it buzy with mid range attacks; Incontrol, you close in on the target and hit him HARD.
Nony - On it.
Incontrol - Delightted TO SIR!
Nony - Commander Day9, i detect weird fluctuations in the observer reports, dont know what it is but i dont think its anyting good.
InControl - I bet its afraid, dont worry
Day9 - We will keep an eye on it - keep going with the original plan.
InControl - Right on, engaging target, here weeee goooooo!
*** Dramatic music, battle scene etc ***
InControl - General Jp - The troll took several direct hit with little effect - i punched it trough the whole post, it flew trough the strats forum and landed in the tournament
MLG thread - I could fight it all day without taking too much damage and break it down but.. it would damage the forums a great deal. This look like a level J Threat. I TIhink it might time Sir.
Jp - Nony what do you think?
Nony - New threat assessement correct sir, I Agree this is our best chance.
Jp - humm, commander day9, start the prep for deployment of additional support.
Day9 - What sir!? the threat is too high for the Fan Legion!
Jp - Not the Legion commander, the Weapon.
Arthosis - What about the Mech. We could start by
JP - No Mech, it wont be ready in time, we need to deal with it fast. Commander Day9, The Weapons, line em up.
Day9 - Oh no! I.. Yes sir loading up replay simulation data in Nony Weapon System At once. Version check passed, build timing... perfect. replay data is now synced; tank god for R1CH. Weapon is ready for launch at your command General JP.
JP - Autorization code for launch - M,A,K,E - Expand, A,N,D,W,E - Defense , I T - Use of Special Tactks Confirmed.
Day9 - The White RA is Online General - Deployment is a Success. Remembers Boys, Use your practice and training. InControl You have to prevent the Troll from moving, Reloading this take a while, we cant miss.
InControl - Ezpz
Nony - I Got it right where i want it sir, taking it down
*** Slow Motion Shot of an epik weapon of some kind , vaporizing the troll ***
JP - Good job everyone, lets wrap this up
Athosis - I still think Mech could have worked, if the pro gammer would train with it more
InControl - Yeah Yeah arthosis and I bet brocoli cake taste good, whatever! gg
Nony - gg
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| Frankon April 25 2012 07:44. Posts 2950 | Profile # |
On April 24 2012 01:38 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 01:22 resilve wrote:
On April 23 2012 22:35 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On April 23 2012 22:28 Zorkmid wrote:
On April 23 2012 22:19 demitap wrote:
Sorry, but sometime you really make me feel like you're sad person, DH Finals was so much more exciting than mlg, mlg was cold, sad and really not better than any weekly cup this time, while DH had this amazing crowd, more players and at least foreigners fought back against koreans( I'm not trying to bash huk, but he got Roflstomed this mlg, humiliated)
And HuK would likely have roflstomped just about anyone at DH.
HuK was off but I definitely think there were 4-5 people at MLG that had a good chance of winning DH. In fact if you put all 8 MLG players into DH, then the chance of one of them winning DH is like 90% haha
Thats true, but it doesn't in any way invalidate DH as a more enjoyable tournament (I am not inferring that you are making that point). I'd rather watch a tournament with a 10 foreigners and 6 koreans in the top 16 than one with 2 foreigners and 14 koreans. I don't care if the quality of games drops down by a few % by manipulating this, the quality of entertainment skyrockets. It's a balancing act - sure to get the best games you need to involve koreans, and the more koreans the better the games on average will be in terms of skill and tactical execution. However I would rather watch a foreigner battle with a korean and have real emotion and passion should they win than see two automatons battle it out. A lot of people have a problem with that, but I have no issues with stating the simple fact that getting behind a player and REALLY feeling for them and wanting them to win trumps any kind of objective measurement like skill. It's just perfect that last night's contrast between DH and MLG made the point perfectly. If I want to watch the world's best sc2 games I will buy a GSL season ticket. If I want to see an event where players I truely support, and with real pride, take the fight to a selection of good koreans then I will tune in to a DH/MLG/IEM - except MLG arena denies me this.
Yeah I have no problem with people saying what they like to watch. I don't like people saying that one event is better than another when each event had different strengths. I don't like people proclaiming that one type of event is the way all events should be. Event organizers are clearly going for different things and appeasing different crowds. It's true that there is theoretically one formula that is the most popular one. And that just means it's best in the "most viewed" or "most liked" category, but not necessarily best in a bunch of other categories. So if we sought out that formula and only had events according to that formula, it would disappoint a lot of people. Variety is going to win out so people need to get used to there being successful events that they don't prefer (or even enjoy at all). I find it especially ridiculous when DH runs a tournament that is much more like MLG's championship events and yet people make comparisons to MLG's 8 man arena event just because they're on the same weekend. Guess what? Sundance gets it. He's purposely running different kind of content supplemental to the championship events. Inviting 8 players to a business's office that's been converted into a studio with no live audience is pretty much the exact opposite of MLG's normal events and DH's Stockholm Open. So when the DH fanboys start talking a bunch of shit about how good their event was, the people who quite enjoyed and even preferred MLG's event are going to get defensive. People act like it's preposterous to think that MLG's Arena was better and yet according to my personal preferences it's preposterous to think DH's event was better. If everyone could simply support the things they like and be honest about the strengths and weaknesses of events, we could have a much nicer discussion. I'm appalled by people saying DH's event was amazing when its first day was one of the shittiest things I've ever watched. People talking up DH's event as amazing are clearly not being objective and accurately descriptive.
Lets see Dreamhack Open is a qualifier tournament... MLG arena is a, surprise, a qualifier tournament.
No wonder people compare them. Oh i agree that first day of DH wasn't that good... but so was MLG day 1. The match that opened it supposed to be the cream of the top game of between Parting and MKP and being hyped like hell ended as the totally boring generic build game that neither of the players wanted to show real builds due to the fact they play each other in a few days in GSL... Yup high caliber games there. |
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| Fuego United Kingdom. April 25 2012 08:03. Posts 163 | Profile # |
On April 25 2012 05:55 Xxio wrote:
There is something wrong with the people in this thread.
I think this every time I read it. |
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| InseKtSC2 United States. April 25 2012 09:05. Posts 172 | Profile Blog # | |
| | InseKt North American Zerg Player Facebook: facebook.com/InseKtSC2 Twitter: @InseKtSC2 Stream: twitch.tv/InseKtSC2 |  |
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| Swampsteel United States. April 25 2012 09:08. Posts 81 | Profile # |
| InseKtSC2 that is a good question and should be the thread main focus |
| | Oh my glob! |  |
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| InseKtSC2 United States. April 25 2012 09:08. Posts 172 | Profile Blog # |
On April 25 2012 09:08 Swampsteel wrote:
InseKtSC2 that is a good question and should be the thread main focus
agreed. and idk why they arent updating their thread red text at the start to at least give their audience a clue wtf is going on |
| | InseKt North American Zerg Player Facebook: facebook.com/InseKtSC2 Twitter: @InseKtSC2 Stream: twitch.tv/InseKtSC2 | |
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| flowSthead April 25 2012 09:10. Posts 1035 | Profile Blog # |
On April 25 2012 05:27 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 04:30 Leth0 wrote:
On April 25 2012 04:21 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On April 25 2012 04:01 Leth0 wrote:
Guess I'm not a 'fan of sc2' since I enjoy watching an enthusiastic crowd, I enjoy watching 'white boys' do well. I'm not petty enough to waste time worrying 'mlg was better than DH , or DH was better than MLG' because I enjoyed both from what I watched of each tournament.
I don't understand where someone (especially someone whose job depends on us watching you 'white boys') gets off talking down to us as if our opinions on what we enjoy somehow make us less intelligent or 'wrong'. Insulting.
You've provided a very poor description of what I said and what my opinions are because you are fucking stupid. There. That's insulting.
I wont lower myself to petty insults. Stay classy tyler.
The post I was responding to has real insults. It was a courtesy for me to say something only petty. You can enjoy more than one thing. And you very likely don't enjoy any two things exactly equally. You may be incapable or uninterested in perceiving the differences, but they're there. Viewing a tournament has dozens of aspects that each person likes to a different extent. Just because you get your jollies by watching white players win tournaments to the sound of a roaring crowd does not mean that you don't also like SC2. What I say is that the aspect of a tournament I care about the most is the quality of the games. That is, I care about the game itself. A bunch of idiots have argued semantics and want to claim a phrase or word as their own for who knows what fucking reason. So if you think SC2, the name of the game, includes things like tournaments and progamers and crowds and commentators and overlays and whether or not a tournament is PPV, then know that that's not what I mean by caring about only the game itself. I really don't give a shit what phrase or word we use to describe it but I think we all know the distinction by now. I know that other people do not rank game quality the highest. I pointed out some other aspects that I don't give a shit about (but I know other people do) so that people could understand how I could strongly prefer an event like MLG Arena without falling back to this MLG favoritism bullshit. I even noted I'm in the minority. I just want people to understand me  What you should have gathered by now is that these aspects and how much we like them are relative. We've determined they're all on the positive side of the spectrum (or at worst, neutral for some people) so we know that ideally we want to maximize each aspect. We want the best crowd, the highest quality games and stream, the greatest variety of players, etc. But resources are limited and tournaments must choose to focus and prioritize one aspect over another. This creates a variety of events. Some people will prefer some over others (but enjoy both). Giving a thumbs up to a tournament is minimally useful feedback. Expressing detailed preferences and elaborating on the strengths and weaknesses of each aspect of the tournament is much more useful. If you want to give a thumbs up to both, that's great. That's more than what most people do. But if you don't see the use in people saying what they enjoy more, then fuck off. If you don't understand something, then don't say anything unless you're humbly seeking help to understand. You say you don't understand why I "get off" talking down to people like an elitist laughing at everyone else's interests. Perhaps you don't understand it because that isn't an accurate fucking picture. Do you even question for a second why you don't understand something? You observe something and come up with some stupid interpretation. Then you publicly express your interpretation, which defames someone involved, and your confusion. You deserve to be called out for that shit. Sarcastically saying "stay classy" is far from a classy way to express your disapproval. If the irony wasn't intentional, then you're fucking stupid. And if it was intentional, being ironic is fucking stupid anyway.
Tyler I don't disagree with anything you've said necessarily, but there is something to be said for the way you express yourself. Whether you meant to or not, your first two quotes are ripe for the interpretation that there are different types of fans, and you are a more "real" fan.
Here are the quotes:
On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering.
On April 23 2012 22:12 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 22:01 ceaRshaf wrote:
On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering.
By this standards IPL 4 is the best event that there ever was. Sorry but a tournament is also about the mood and production value.
I'm not denying that other people have other interests. I pointed some of them out. But a tournament isn't about anything really. There's a competition going on and it can be presented in any number of ways that prioritize different interests. Mood and production value are important to a lot of people. My two biggest priorities are game quality (best players in the world playing interesting games) and stream quality (clear video and audio). So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2.
"I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2." At this point, I understand exactly what you mean. You mean that SC2 is the program and the corresponding actions of two players playing a multiplayer game. From a viewer's perspective this also often includes an observer. Everything else, including banners, and crowds, and commentators, etc. are superfluous to the actual game because they do not change the outcome of the game nor do they have a direct effect on what happens in the game (although as we all know a crowd can have an indirect effect). That's fine.
But that isn't what you said. As someone who has taken philosophy, and as a frequent forum poster, you should know that it is necessary to define your terms especially among people that do not have the same terms as you. What you say in these quotes doesn't contradict what you say later, but I think had you clarified in your initial posts, you wouldn't have needed to add anything later.
Separately, I would also argue that different people have different definitions of what SC2 is. As in the big quote I spoilered, I know you have already realized this, but I am surprised that you didn't think of it initially. I think it is almost a cliche at this point to talk about how for many Americans baseball isn't just a bunch of players on a diamond throwing and hitting a ball with a stick, but also being part of a crowd and eating hot dogs during the summer. I think you are familiar with the idea that there is ownership in being a fan and a viewer. Whether or not that ownership is legitimate, it often stems from the spectacle of the sport, not the actual game itself. Thus, it directly leads to having ownership over the spectacle as well. It becomes not just "Idra/Huk/Nestea/MVP is the best/the worst/a time traveler that created everything" but also "MLG/DH/Homestory is the best/the worst." People talk about their experiences being at a live event, of feeling the energy of the crowd and of having fond memories of "being there" when X player managed to something amazing, or heartbreakingly failed to do something amazing.
When you said that you are in the minority of fans of SC2, you attacked a lot of people's notions of what it means to be a fan and the things they like about the community and the culture of the sport. Now, I understand that that isn't what you meant to do. But getting angry at them for misunderstanding you isn't helping, and frankly you should have defined your terms earlier. At this point we all understand each other (I hope), but the initial kerfuffle happened because of a lack of rigor on your part.
So in conclusion, I lost 3.14 respect points for you. You owe me a pie (I like apple and peach). |
| | "You can be creative but I will crush it under the iron fist of my conservative play." - Liquid`Tyler █ MVP ■ MC ■ Boxer ■ Grubby ■ MKP ■ SlayerS ■ oGs/TL █ | |
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| Aakoz Sweden. April 25 2012 10:25. Posts 43 | Profile # |
^ Sorry Nony but I think it's time for you to gg  |
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| mjnbowlgod April 25 2012 10:41. Posts 190 | Profile # |
| MLG was...is and will be better then dreamhacks to come, and speaking of which IPL as well, sorry if that offends the fanboys but MLG is ahead of the curve and paving the road ahead in which tournys should be run, yeah there wasent a giant crowd to hype things up but the production quality, commentary , game quality are a step above the rest. its a fact and have a good day |
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| how United States. April 25 2012 10:41. Posts 526 | Profile Blog # |
On April 25 2012 10:25 Aakoz wrote:^ Sorry Nony but I think it's time for you to gg
Haha, I'm still on NonY's side of all of this, now I just gotta get my popcorn and wait for the rebuttal. |
| | http://twitter.com/howsc http://howsc.com | |
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| tsuxiit April 25 2012 10:46. Posts 1274 | Profile # | |
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| RogerChillingworth April 25 2012 10:48. Posts 2260 | Profile # |
| well i don't actually think Tyler cares how he comes across on these forums, or if people think he needs to improve his rhetoric. He's always been kind of a tool, so it's not really a matter of defining the constitution of a real fan or any of that shit. Not difficult to look on all forum posters as lessers, both as a the game and intellectually. Just gotta not give a shit. |
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| zaii Guam. April 25 2012 10:48. Posts 2423 | Profile # |
On April 25 2012 10:41 mjnbowlgod wrote:
MLG was...is and will be better then dreamhacks to come, and speaking of which IPL as well, sorry if that offends the fanboys but MLG is ahead of the curve and paving the road ahead in which tournys should be run, yeah there wasent a giant crowd to hype things up but the production quality, commentary , game quality are a step above the rest. its a fact and have a good day
plz stop, Let's just be grateful this scene is over-saturated with content. |
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| DyEnasTy United States. April 25 2012 10:50. Posts 3421 | Profile Blog # |
| I watch SC for the games, not the production value and "glitter" around the games. Same goes for any televised sport. All the pretty lights, shots of the crowd, and various BS just distract me from the games. But if the games suck I guess thats a good thing? |
| | Much better to die an awesome Terran than to live as a magic wielding fairy or a mindless sac of biological goop. -Manifesto7 |  |
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| zefreak United States. April 25 2012 10:53. Posts 2613 | Profile Blog # |
On April 25 2012 04:29 Blennd wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 03:59 sickoota wrote:
On April 25 2012 03:51 msl wrote:
On April 25 2012 03:36 sickoota wrote:
On April 25 2012 03:27 msl wrote:
On April 25 2012 03:06 sickoota wrote:
Whose a bigger fan of soccer? Someone who will only watch the big, spectacle of a finals with their hometown team or someone who would be thrilled to watch Barcelona and Inter play on a highschool football field with 20 spectators in the bleachers? Nony is unarguably more of an sc2 fan than those who watch tournaments just for the production value. He is a fan of sc2, you are a fan what goes on around sc2. See the difference?
You don't get it, do you? There are no "bigger" fans, there are just fans with different priorities or different preferences for different aspects of the SC2. If you want to talk abou the "bigness" of a fan, it would arguably be measured by level of entusiasm, not which aspects entuses you. Assuming your preferences are the one true faith that defines a "true" fan makes you look a bit arrogant at best. Also: Prefacing your opinion with "unarguably" doesn't make it so.
Light shows, energetic hosts and big crowds are not "aspects" of sc2. "I am a fan of sc2". What in the world can we take this to mean? As far as I know sc2 is a game made by Blizzard entertainment. I'm pretty sure Starcraft isn't well dressed hosts, nor an enthusiastic crowd, nor good storylines. Funny huh? All these are things that happen around sc2, but they are not sc2. If you enjoy these things more than watching/playing sc2 itself you'd do better to call yourself a fan of the sc2 scene, or esports, or whatever you may please really. Analytically a "fan of starcraft 2" is just that - a fan of a game, not of glitz and hype.
Sorry, but that does not fly. Starcraft 2 was always intended to be a Esport. Blizzard is actively promoting it as such. It was always intended to not just to be played, but watched by spectators while professionals play it. Light shows, energetic hosts and big crowds are "aspects" of sc2 and are intended to be so by its creators. You're just a gameplay purist with his panties in a twist trying to narrow the definition of something to fit your preferences and exclude others.
Funny you say that when you're trying to twist the very clear cut word "starcraft 2" to include things that have nothing at all to do with it. I honestly can't even wrap my head around what you're trying to say. If you turn on a basketball game and the half time show is on, some cheerleaders intercut with some discussion of how the game is going, are you watching basketball? Surely the makers of basketball intended it to played in such an environment - therefore everything and anything that happens around a basketball game is "basketball"? Words mean things, you can't just use them to signify whatever you want. Starcraft 2 is a GAME, not what happens around the game. Anyone who can't understand something so simple must have alot of trouble with reading comprehension or holding a simple conversation.
The fact that the majority of people disagree with you about the definition of the word "fan" would seem to indicate that you would be the one who would have trouble with reading comprehension or holding a simple conversation.
The majority of people are idiots and incapable of distinguishing between concepts. The majority of people still think of politics in terms of a binary right/left choice. Fan is word that describes something, YOU don't get to choose if it refers to you or not. It's not a badge of honor, its a description.
I can't believe this argument literally started over from scratch. These things have already been said, multiple times, over the last dozen pages. |
| | www.gosu-sc.com - Starcraft News, Strategy and Merchandise | |
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| Ryncol United States. April 25 2012 10:57. Posts 805 | Profile # |
On April 25 2012 10:41 mjnbowlgod wrote:
MLG was...is and will be better then dreamhacks to come, and speaking of which IPL as well
How do you know this? Oh, that's right, you have no idea and are talking completely out of your ass. |
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