Don't post in this thread to say "gay gamers are like everyone else, why do they have a special thread?" It is something that has been posted numerous times, and this isn't the place for that discussion.
On June 28 2012 04:29 Mora wrote: What a bunch of horseshit.
TotalBiscuit could have used a better word - sure, but who cares. What he said was taken completely out of context.
* Some douchebag was being a douchebag, and he wanted to offend him * He knew the word 'faggot' would offend him * He said it
Let's all waste hours of our lives discussing how the unintended consequences of his using the word are going to result in the stoning of gays everywhere! Please.
Yes, we should encourage people to use other, more accurate, words to portray their thoughts, but people are going to slip now and again, and that's ok. How much do you recycle? Cause I mean, I recycle everything. But, occasionally, I'll throw an empty cardboard toilet paper roll in the garbage instead of the recycling bin. Now, if every single person in the world did the same thing, that would be 7 billion toilet paper rolls that could have been recycled. But you know what? Context. I'm good most of the time, so let's not stress out, forgive me, and move on.
Or we could ask him to contribute to a LGBT charity event. Are you fucking kidding me?
You're just not that important. No minority is that important. Especially with the proper context!: * he admitted that he shouldn't have used the word * he supports the chosen-gender of trans players like Scarlett * he doesn't have anything about gay people * he never uses that language in official casts
Let's stop behaving like feminists. We're not a bunch of crazy broom-shoved threatened females, so let's stop aspiring to be?
See what I did there? Grow up.
Yeah not asking for any kind of charity myself etc, but definitely saying that TB should be condemned and criticized for using hate-speech. And yes I think TB's heart is in the right place and he should not be persecuted. There's a difference between condemning and persecution, no?
And I don't think anyone in the thread has stated that TB meant what he said in an anti-gay way or context. That doesn't justify anything. Again the only way to stamp out people using words designed sepcifically to inflict damage to gays and minorities is to speak out against them period. The only reason I've gotten preachy on here lately is because of all of the gaymers on here justifying bad behavior and trying to shut up people who spoke out.
And Mora, it's a very asshole thing for you to put down feminists and tell people to grow up for discussing gay-related issues in the gay-related thread that you created. Perhaps you only want people to post rainbows and sunshine in here? Why did you create this thread if not to discuss things related to LGBT?
I honestly can't figure out if you are the most adept troll, or if you are serious. If you are the former, you have my admiration. If you are the latter, I'll need some time to respond.
I doubt that trying to assassinate my character is going to to help you at all.
And your completely wrong, I'm sorry to say. Whining and bitching and complaining and acting like "feminists" is exactly what gets things done. I was able to get married in Mexico because of super-liberal activists down here who wouldn't shut the fuck up about it. I couldn't get married in my own fucking country (U.S.) because of brain-washed idiots in my own community who listened to all the old anti-gay fucks who told them: "don't whine about having rights, don't complain just be quiet and satisfied with being second-class ok?". And here you are saying the same fucking thing? Really Mora? I'm ashamed of you.
Whining and bitching isn't the right thing to do, and those two aren't the same as fighting strong for rights and never giving up on justice. In fact I think the former two deter from the later happening, and I don't think your example with Mexico is comparable to what's happening with TB among others.
I was being somewhat sarcastic regarding "whining and bitching" - obviously being a whining 12 year old is not going to do anything. The idea behind that statement is that being loud and outspoken is what gets things done. I edited the post to say "loud" instead because that's a good point. And I'm not comparing mexico marriage to TB at all . . .at this point, it's not about TB. He's not evil and doesn't deserve persecution.
The only reason this argument is continuing is because some people in the thread are telling others that they shouldn't speak their minds and calling them "feminists/activists" with a negative connotation because we said something like "TB was wrong and should recieve strong critcism". It's that simple imo.
Last edit: 2012-06-28 05:35:10
"The weak cannot forgive. Forgiveness is an attribute of the strong." - Gandhi
On June 28 2012 04:29 Mora wrote: What a bunch of horseshit.
TotalBiscuit could have used a better word - sure, but who cares. What he said was taken completely out of context.
* Some douchebag was being a douchebag, and he wanted to offend him * He knew the word 'faggot' would offend him * He said it
Let's all waste hours of our lives discussing how the unintended consequences of his using the word are going to result in the stoning of gays everywhere! Please.
Yes, we should encourage people to use other, more accurate, words to portray their thoughts, but people are going to slip now and again, and that's ok. How much do you recycle? Cause I mean, I recycle everything. But, occasionally, I'll throw an empty cardboard toilet paper roll in the garbage instead of the recycling bin. Now, if every single person in the world did the same thing, that would be 7 billion toilet paper rolls that could have been recycled. But you know what? Context. I'm good most of the time, so let's not stress out, forgive me, and move on.
Or we could ask him to contribute to a LGBT charity event. Are you fucking kidding me?
You're just not that important. No minority is that important. Especially with the proper context!: * he admitted that he shouldn't have used the word * he supports the chosen-gender of trans players like Scarlett * he doesn't have anything about gay people * he never uses that language in official casts
Let's stop behaving like feminists. We're not a bunch of crazy broom-shoved threatened females, so let's stop aspiring to be?
See what I did there? Grow up.
Yeah not asking for any kind of charity myself etc, but definitely saying that TB should be condemned and criticized for using hate-speech. And yes I think TB's heart is in the right place and he should not be persecuted. There's a difference between condemning and persecution, no?
And I don't think anyone in the thread has stated that TB meant what he said in an anti-gay way or context. That doesn't justify anything. Again the only way to stamp out people using words designed sepcifically to inflict damage to gays and minorities is to speak out against them period. The only reason I've gotten preachy on here lately is because of all of the gaymers on here justifying bad behavior and trying to shut up people who spoke out.
And Mora, it's a very asshole thing for you to put down feminists and tell people to grow up for discussing gay-related issues in the gay-related thread that you created. Perhaps you only want people to post rainbows and sunshine in here? Why did you create this thread if not to discuss things related to LGBT?
I honestly can't figure out if you are the most adept troll, or if you are serious. If you are the former, you have my admiration. If you are the latter, I'll need some time to respond.
I doubt that trying to assassinate my character is going to to help you at all.
And your completely wrong, I'm sorry to say. Whining and bitching and complaining and acting like "feminists" is exactly what gets things done. I was able to get married in Mexico because of super-liberal activists down here who wouldn't shut the fuck up about it. I couldn't get married in my own fucking country (U.S.) because of brain-washed idiots in my own community who listened to all the old anti-gay fucks who told them: "don't whine about having rights, don't complain just be quiet and satisfied with being second-class ok?". And here you are saying the same fucking thing? Really Mora? I'm ashamed of you.
Whoa whoa whoa. Hold up.
When did I try to assassinate your character? At the end of my post, I was deliberately using irony to illustrate my point (ie: throwing feminists under the bus); which I even punctuated with "see what I did there" to ensure that the irony was not missed. At this point you responded, addressing my irony out of context - which was the entire point of my post. Yes, I wondered if you were trolling me.
I have to mention that I strongly disagree with the methods that 'get things done'. Both the efficacy and morality. But that's not the topic I wish to address right now, so we can circle back if the conversation leads that way.
What gets me is how you equate the opinions stated in my posts as condoning the mistreatment of homosexuals and being satisfied with being treated as second-class. Now, I'm going to drop all the irony and refrain from any condescension and insults, as you are taking what I'm saying very seriously and simultaneously not understanding what I'm saying.
All actions are not equal. Being gay-bashed and being called a faggot are not the same thing. Excluding someone from participation because of their homosexuality, and using 'gay' derogatorily is not the same thing. My position is: that as human beings who are all fallible, we need to use discretion about which grievances we can forgive, and which we are intolerant of.
What this means is is that there is not a black and white rule for behaviour. What is OK for one person is not always OK for another. And when working outside of the law, I believe that to be both good and healthy. That we, individually, need to consider the broader context of each situation, and use reasonable judgement about how we react to that situation. In this instance, where the gay-bandwagon has jumped on TotalBiscuits back, I feel that our [collective] judgement is in the wrong. As I explained in my original post [about TB], that if we consider both who TB is as a person, and the situation where he unintentionally used offensive language towards homosexuals (ie: he was trying to offend someone who was not homosexual), that we should not persecute him.
dictionary.com: Persecute: 2. To annoy or trouble persistently
A reasonable response to what TB said, in my opinion, would have been the following: * Alerting him in a private message that the language he used was offensive to our minority, and leaving it there * Alerting him in a tweet of the same * Ignoring what he said, as he's obviously not anti-gay * Condoning his calling-out of a thief who attempted and succeeded in taking money from people
All of these are reasonable, respectable, responses. Even though they are differing perspectives on his actions, they are all reasonable.
What is not reasonable: * Thinking he's a bad person * Thinking that he condones treating homosexuals as second-class * Asking him to host or serve at a LGBT event to make-up for his sins * Jumping on a bandwagon condoning such persecution
Similarly, I've been thrown under the bus because I do not have zero-tolerance for intolerance. You've equated me to same mis-equations you've made of TB. They are unreasonable and unfounded.
We are in a culture that is slowly adapting and changing. It is becoming more and more tolerant of minorities and differences and people being who they are. These things do not happen over night, so let's all have a little patience. That you are so quick to throw a stone, when you are probably imperfect yourself. You probably offend people without intending to do so, and that the world is a better place if they don't persecute you for doing so. With a little patience and reasonable tolerance for intolerance, we'll all live much amiable lives.
To see the progress of teamliquid and this community from 12 years ago when I joined it is absolutely astounding. I cannot help but feel that If you knew its history and could see such inspiring progress, that the patience I speak of would be inherent.
Thank you for the long and sincere reply, I'm going to take some time to respond as well. And yes, I obviously completely missed the irony in your previous post.
"The weak cannot forgive. Forgiveness is an attribute of the strong." - Gandhi
Silverfoxx United States. June 28 2012 05:58. Posts 164
On June 28 2012 05:35 Mora wrote: A reasonable response to what TB said, in my opinion, would have been the following: * Alerting him in a private message that the language he used was offensive to our minority, and leaving it there * Alerting him in a tweet of the same * Ignoring what he said, as he's obviously not anti-gay * Condoning his calling-out of a thief who attempted and succeeded in taking money from people
All of these are reasonable, respectable, responses. Even though they are differing perspectives on his actions, they are all reasonable.
What is not reasonable: * Thinking he's a bad person * Thinking that he condones treating homosexuals as second-class * Asking him to host or serve at a LGBT event to make-up for his sins * Jumping on a bandwagon condoning such persecution
^ This.
Thanks Mora. Nice to see you back.
The fox is back.
heartbourne United States. June 28 2012 06:28. Posts 10
What is not reasonable: * Thinking he's a bad person * Thinking that he condones treating homosexuals as second-class * Asking him to host or serve at a LGBT event to make-up for his sins * Jumping on a bandwagon condoning such persecution
Well, I think its reasonable to think that he is a bad person, though I would disagree with someone who thought that way. I could understand their thought-process and think it was rational.
I want to address the whole LGBT event thing, because the way this was re-opened was when I posted on the reddit thread asking for questions for TB. It wasn't 100% thought-out or articulated, and I didn't even think it would be upvoted or addressed. I didn't specifically bring up the "fag" incident, and I didn't think the details of it were going to be brought up and re-hashed as it run its course months ago. What I was trying to imply is that choosing or supporting an LGBT-themed charity would be a cool idea to help needy people and garner good-will. It was an off-hand thought that I didn't think was going to be scrutinized, and we can let it go.
That being said, in the context of "he should do it", I don't think he is obligated to do it, nor do I think that he "sinned". I think its reasonable to ask him to participate in some event, as I think organizing LGBT and allied StarCraft players to do that sort of thing would be excellent. I think it would be reasonable to ask any person to contribute, and I think it would reflect well on that person. The nature of the question was intended to be casual, but without speaking directly to him, its hard to convey that I (personally) just think that we could be more civil.
I think this applies across the board to people like Orb and Destiny as well, but when these sorts of sensitive events happen, I think the best resolution is players addressing their concerns to the relevant person, as has been done, and the relevant person responding with care. The issue that arose here for me was that TB responded, in my opinion, dismissively and hostilely. I think that if myself or Mora or Silverfoxx actually had a direct conversation with him, he would understand the concern better. My goal in talking about this isn't to punish someone, the goal is to increase understanding, and what I expect in return is respect enough from him care about not alienating any of the StarCraft audience unnecessarily.
Hmmms, I'm kinda on the fence of the whole TB faggot issue, I think it was unhelpful, and while I'd prefer that he didn't call people faggots, I think my limited brain power can be spent elsewhere.
However, I want to address "sensitive whiny victimized individuals." I'm not really okay with that line, as sure as your aware not everything is okay for LGBT people, both at home and abroad, I'm going to wager that nearly everyone here has experienced abuse due to either their gender expression, gender identity or sexual orientation, and speaking from personal experience I get abuse both from random individuals and authority figures on a near daily basis.
So originally, I was going to rail on you from this point on that accosting people that feel victimised is totally BS especially when you came in here with a tone that could be described as "whiny". But I think you know that, but I'm kinda confused, some of your comments would suggest otherwise, sometimes it seems like you where tarring every LGBT person that feels like a victim with the same brush, like they has no right to feel that way, and other times, as per your comments on feminists that you where speaking to a very vocal and silly minority, whose concerns lie more with if people say faggot or not rather than legislation which would give LGBT people equal protections under the law.
In closing, don't bash people who feel what TB said was wrong, their heart is most likely in the right place, and please don't bash feminists as whole as people who nit-pick about the trivial, it smacks a little of ignorance when you attack LGBT people who may have the wrong idea about what is important, and then comparing them to a parody of what feminism and feminists actually are and what they stand for.
Lol I'm pretty sure that my post has already been addressed in the long time I spent writing it, I left it in a spoiler if you really want to read my bad syntax.
Last edit: 2012-06-28 06:56:26
Nerdette // External revolution - Internal revolution // Fabulous // I raise my hands to heaven of curiosity // I don't know what to ask for // What has it got for me? // TL's Premier Archaeologist // Kerribear
heartbourne United States. June 28 2012 07:02. Posts 10
I also want to throw in here that the issue, at least for me, isn't that he used the word "fag" as much as TB's response. Let me give some comparisons.
Day[9], as with almost everyone in America and other English-language speaking places, has said the word faggot. He used it off-handedly on a daily in SC1 days. I can't find it, but here is him reading in-game chat and reading it around 38:00:
If I was around when these things happened, yes, I address him about it. It was ~3 years ago, not that long. Regardless, what do I think Day[9] would say today about these things today if he made a mistake? I think he would say that he cares about all of his fans and support and in the future wouldn't do things that might drive them away. I think more to the point is that he doesn't implicate himself in these kinds of problems now that its more than a hobby.
TB, on the other hand, says "fuck you, I'll say what I want, I don't really care about people who disagree with me." It's not that I think saying "fag" is a huge offense, but he purposefully weighs some sense of pride about his opinions more than alienating his fans. If he said "well, I don't think people should find faggot offensive for X and Y, but point taken, I understand that some take it as disrespectful and I'll avoid doing it in the future", it would be much different.
Last edit: 2012-06-28 07:03:22
Troxle United States. June 28 2012 07:04. Posts 481
I don't know if this topic is even interesting to anybody, or if anybody has an event like this where they live, but I live in a city called Boulder where we have a total of 0 gay bars (btw Boulder is easily large enough to have at least 1, but that's not the point); The point is, somebody got sick of it so they started a group on the web where on the last Friday of every month, they pick a random bar and get as many people from the gay community as possible to all show up at 10:00 pm. This in effect turns some unsuspecting bar into a "gay bar" for the rest of the night.
There's usually a theme of some kind to the party which is fun as well. Another nice thing about this is that whatever bar they pick, isn't designated as a "gay bar" so a lot of straight people join the party (or leave if they're really that uncomfortable lol). I think its a really good way to blur the line between the "gay community" and "straight community". Let me know if anybody else has any group like this.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll look down and whisper "No." -Rorschach
On June 28 2012 07:02 heartbourne wrote:TB, on the other hand, says "fuck you, I'll say what I want, I don't really care about people who disagree with me." It's not that I think saying "fag" is a huge offense, but he purposefully weighs some sense of pride about his opinions more than alienating his fans. If he said "well, I don't think people should find faggot offensive for X and Y, but point taken, I understand that some take it as disrespectful and I'll avoid doing it in the future", it would be much different.
Exactly this. And I get it why it's hard to say "I'm sorry" - it feels bad when you're accused of gay-bashing when you don't think you've done anything wrong and in fact, are pro-LGBT rights etc etc. It's natural to go on the defensive and ridicule people calling you out, but it'd be nice to see civilized adults sometimes take a step back and think that huh, maybe I should stop saying that.
I agree that the charity thing is kind of dumb though - just a sorry would've been enough.
neoghaleon55 United States. June 28 2012 07:56. Posts 6172
On June 28 2012 07:48 Actionfigurejesus wrote: New Topic!
I don't know if this topic is even interesting to anybody, or if anybody has an event like this where they live, but I live in a city called Boulder where we have a total of 0 gay bars (btw Boulder is easily large enough to have at least 1, but that's not the point); The point is, somebody got sick of it so they started a group on the web where on the last Friday of every month, they pick a random bar and get as many people from the gay community as possible to all show up at 10:00 pm. This in effect turns some unsuspecting bar into a "gay bar" for the rest of the night.
There's usually a theme of some kind to the party which is fun as well. Another nice thing about this is that whatever bar they pick, isn't designated as a "gay bar" so a lot of straight people join the party (or leave if they're really that uncomfortable lol). I think its a really good way to blur the line between the "gay community" and "straight community". Let me know if anybody else has any group like this.
LOL! This is hilarious. I really want to see the look on those people's faces as the bar gets "invaded" heh
By the way, I did not know Chuck Norris is such a homophobe: really sad.
We should complain to Blizzard for having him in WoW commercials! /sarcasm
It sucks not having gay bars or clubs. I just moved from Albany NY and am about to settle in Charlotte NC. From what I've seen online Albany has wayyy more of a scene with half a dozen gay dance clubs and gay bars, so I'm hoping Charlotte has some gay nightlife.
You can consider using an app like Grindr. It isn't all surfing for sex; I fired it up once or twice while I was out and was just amazed about how many gay people were on it and out at bars. Makes it easier to strike up conversation and whatnot.
On June 28 2012 04:29 Mora wrote: What a bunch of horseshit.
TotalBiscuit could have used a better word - sure, but who cares. What he said was taken completely out of context.
* Some douchebag was being a douchebag, and he wanted to offend him * He knew the word 'faggot' would offend him * He said it
Let's all waste hours of our lives discussing how the unintended consequences of his using the word are going to result in the stoning of gays everywhere! Please.
Yes, we should encourage people to use other, more accurate, words to portray their thoughts, but people are going to slip now and again, and that's ok. How much do you recycle? Cause I mean, I recycle everything. But, occasionally, I'll throw an empty cardboard toilet paper roll in the garbage instead of the recycling bin. Now, if every single person in the world did the same thing, that would be 7 billion toilet paper rolls that could have been recycled. But you know what? Context. I'm good most of the time, so let's not stress out, forgive me, and move on.
Or we could ask him to contribute to a LGBT charity event. Are you fucking kidding me?
You're just not that important. No minority is that important. Especially with the proper context!: * he admitted that he shouldn't have used the word * he supports the chosen-gender of trans players like Scarlett * he doesn't have anything about gay people * he never uses that language in official casts
Let's stop behaving like feminists. We're not a bunch of crazy broom-shoved threatened females, so let's stop aspiring to be?
See what I did there? Grow up.
Yeah not asking for any kind of charity myself etc, but definitely saying that TB should be condemned and criticized for using hate-speech. And yes I think TB's heart is in the right place and he should not be persecuted. There's a difference between condemning and persecution, no?
And I don't think anyone in the thread has stated that TB meant what he said in an anti-gay way or context. That doesn't justify anything. Again the only way to stamp out people using words designed sepcifically to inflict damage to gays and minorities is to speak out against them period. The only reason I've gotten preachy on here lately is because of all of the gaymers on here justifying bad behavior and trying to shut up people who spoke out.
And Mora, it's a very asshole thing for you to put down feminists and tell people to grow up for discussing gay-related issues in the gay-related thread that you created. Perhaps you only want people to post rainbows and sunshine in here? Why did you create this thread if not to discuss things related to LGBT?
I honestly can't figure out if you are the most adept troll, or if you are serious. If you are the former, you have my admiration. If you are the latter, I'll need some time to respond.
I doubt that trying to assassinate my character is going to to help you at all.
And your completely wrong, I'm sorry to say. Whining and bitching and complaining and acting like "feminists" is exactly what gets things done. I was able to get married in Mexico because of super-liberal activists down here who wouldn't shut the fuck up about it. I couldn't get married in my own fucking country (U.S.) because of brain-washed idiots in my own community who listened to all the old anti-gay fucks who told them: "don't whine about having rights, don't complain just be quiet and satisfied with being second-class ok?". And here you are saying the same fucking thing? Really Mora? I'm ashamed of you.
Whoa whoa whoa. Hold up.
When did I try to assassinate your character? At the end of my post, I was deliberately using irony to illustrate my point (ie: throwing feminists under the bus); which I even punctuated with "see what I did there" to ensure that the irony was not missed. At this point you responded, addressing my irony out of context - which was the entire point of my post. Yes, I wondered if you were trolling me.
I have to mention that I strongly disagree with the methods that 'get things done'. Both the efficacy and morality. But that's not the topic I wish to address right now, so we can circle back if the conversation leads that way.
What gets me is how you equate the opinions stated in my posts as condoning the mistreatment of homosexuals and being satisfied with being treated as second-class. Now, I'm going to drop all the irony and refrain from any condescension and insults, as you are taking what I'm saying very seriously and simultaneously not understanding what I'm saying.
All actions are not equal. Being gay-bashed and being called a faggot are not the same thing. Excluding someone from participation because of their homosexuality, and using 'gay' derogatorily is not the same thing. My position is: that as human beings who are all fallible, we need to use discretion about which grievances we can forgive, and which we are intolerant of.
What this means is is that there is not a black and white rule for behaviour. What is OK for one person is not always OK for another. And when working outside of the law, I believe that to be both good and healthy. That we, individually, need to consider the broader context of each situation, and use reasonable judgement about how we react to that situation. In this instance, where the gay-bandwagon has jumped on TotalBiscuits back, I feel that our [collective] judgement is in the wrong. As I explained in my original post [about TB], that if we consider both who TB is as a person, and the situation where he unintentionally used offensive language towards homosexuals (ie: he was trying to offend someone who was not homosexual), that we should not persecute him.
dictionary.com: Persecute: 2. To annoy or trouble persistently
A reasonable response to what TB said, in my opinion, would have been the following: * Alerting him in a private message that the language he used was offensive to our minority, and leaving it there * Alerting him in a tweet of the same * Ignoring what he said, as he's obviously not anti-gay * Condoning his calling-out of a thief who attempted and succeeded in taking money from people
All of these are reasonable, respectable, responses. Even though they are differing perspectives on his actions, they are all reasonable.
What is not reasonable: * Thinking he's a bad person * Thinking that he condones treating homosexuals as second-class * Asking him to host or serve at a LGBT event to make-up for his sins * Jumping on a bandwagon condoning such persecution
Similarly, I've been thrown under the bus because I do not have zero-tolerance for intolerance. You've equated me to same mis-equations you've made of TB. They are unreasonable and unfounded.
We are in a culture that is slowly adapting and changing. It is becoming more and more tolerant of minorities and differences and people being who they are. These things do not happen over night, so let's all have a little patience. That you are so quick to throw a stone, when you are probably imperfect yourself. You probably offend people without intending to do so, and that the world is a better place if they don't persecute you for doing so. With a little patience and reasonable tolerance for intolerance, we'll all live much amiable lives.
To see the progress of teamliquid and this community from 12 years ago when I joined it is absolutely astounding. I cannot help but feel that If you knew its history and could see such inspiring progress, that the patience I speak of would be inherent.
This is a good post and I want to respond to several different parts of it, and (like some have suggested) hopefully we can move on from this unpleasant topic.
1. I did completely miss any irony in your original post and jumped the gun on that, so that's my fault.
2.
All actions are not equal. Being gay-bashed and being called a faggot are not the same thing. Excluding someone from participation because of their homosexuality, and using 'gay' derogatorily is not the same thing.
I think this is the primary issue that I've been responding to, people claiming "context" is more important than substance regarding hate-words/speech. It is true that all actions are not equal, and being gay-bashed and being called a faggot are not the same thing. *However*, hate-speech works in phases.
Phase 1) Develop a word to insult and injure a minority verbally Phase 2) Use the word with negative connotations to reinforce it is a "bad" word associated with the minority Phase 3) Now that the word is "bad", use it to rile up people to start physical and other forms of violence against the minority group to repress and inflict maximum damage
So there is a direct *proven* correlation between hate-slurs and hate-crime. This is a fact. Of course TB is not some evil guy who is trying to do any of these things conciously, but he participated in this process unconciously and he needed to be made aware of it assertively. As does anyone who condones using hate-language,
3.
My position is: that as human beings who are all fallible, we need to use discretion about which grievances we can forgive, and which we are intolerant of.
I agree with forgiveness of course, and everyone should instantly forgive TB for his use of the language. However, the definition of forgiveness is as follows:
Forgive: To renounce anger or resentment against
To forgive is not to forget. There can and should be forgiveness as well as consequences to actions. Discretion is important, but this issue really is black and white. It's not a grey issue. Someone uses hate-speech that was designed to harm minorities unconciously - no they are not evil for doing so - but they should be chastised for their mistake. It's that simple imo.
4.
A reasonable response to what TB said, in my opinion, would have been the following: * Alerting him in a private message that the language he used was offensive to our minority, and leaving it there * Alerting him in a tweet of the same * Ignoring what he said, as he's obviously not anti-gay * Condoning his calling-out of a thief who attempted and succeeded in taking money from people
I can only speak for myself personally, but the first bullet point is exactly what I choose to do to express myself. If you read my posts I've never advocated for harsh treatment or persecution of TB in any way.
5.
Similarly, I've been thrown under the bus because I do not have zero-tolerance for intolerance. You've equated me to same mis-equations you've made of TB. They are unreasonable and unfounded.
I do have zero-tolerance for intolerance. Absolutely fucking zero tolerance. I have no problem stating that. And fortunately, the rest of Western media, the education system and almost all major public figures agree with me on this. I won't judge you because you don't think the same, but it's clearly a source of our differening opinions.
Also, I never made any equivications of TB - in fact I've barely even mentioned TB in any of my posts. I've been going after people in this thread for defending TB and saying that I should be "tolerant" of hate speech due to context. I addressed you in particular because you were emphatically impying that I should shut up, "grow up" and stop "whining and complaining" about it. I equivicated your statements to people who have said the exact same thing to me regarding my human rights in the United States. I was making a point that you should never, ever tell someone not to speak their mind regarding these types of issues. Though I will admit that if you were being ironic, joking etc I completely missed the bus and you don't deserve the things that I said.
6.
That you are so quick to throw a stone, when you are probably imperfect yourself. You probably offend people without intending to do so, and that the world is a better place if they don't persecute you for doing so
I am very quick to condemn hate-words, harshly, this is correct. And I am anything but perfect. It doesn't bother me if I offend people by speaking out against hate-words. The idea that anyone would be offended by this is in itself perplexing to me. I am not a combative person in general, i.e. very easy going and rarely argues with anyone. This issue however, does touch a cord with me. So I can see where you're coming from. And no, by your own definition of persecution, I have not done this to TB or anyone else on here.
7.
To see the progress of teamliquid and this community from 12 years ago when I joined it is absolutely astounding. I cannot help but feel that If you knew its history and could see such inspiring progress, that the patience I speak of would be inherent.
I understand that patience is a virtue and progress has been made. But Mora, progress has not been made because of patience. It's been made because of activists and outspoken people like Harvey Milk and Martin Luther King. They're all dead now btw, because they were "loud". And patience hasn't allowed me to get married in the United States. I had to move to a different country, where people were not patient and demanded change immediately. So no, I'm not on the "patience" train to nowhere - life has taught me otherwise.
I think the main reason I'm at odds with a few people on here is harking back to what I said a few paragraphs up: I have no tolerance for intolerance. I don't have time for it, I'm not going to "wait" for it. I want to live a normal life without "fucking faggot" making for feel uncomfortable constantly. I definitely welcome a response to all of this if you like, but if you want to continue in PM or not continue at all I'm open to everything. I'm also ready for a new topic as this is exhausting.
Last edit: 2012-06-28 08:34:05
"The weak cannot forgive. Forgiveness is an attribute of the strong." - Gandhi
Troxle United States. June 28 2012 08:55. Posts 481
On June 28 2012 07:48 Actionfigurejesus wrote: New Topic!
I don't know if this topic is even interesting to anybody, or if anybody has an event like this where they live, but I live in a city called Boulder where we have a total of 0 gay bars (btw Boulder is easily large enough to have at least 1, but that's not the point); The point is, somebody got sick of it so they started a group on the web where on the last Friday of every month, they pick a random bar and get as many people from the gay community as possible to all show up at 10:00 pm. This in effect turns some unsuspecting bar into a "gay bar" for the rest of the night.
There's usually a theme of some kind to the party which is fun as well. Another nice thing about this is that whatever bar they pick, isn't designated as a "gay bar" so a lot of straight people join the party (or leave if they're really that uncomfortable lol). I think its a really good way to blur the line between the "gay community" and "straight community". Let me know if anybody else has any group like this.
Boulder Colorado? If so you aren't that far from Denver and I'm pretty sure Denver will have a gay bar. My grandparents live in Golden which is like fifteen to thirty minutes max from Denver and about forty-five from Boulder. I live in Virginia though so I can't be completely positive but I would have a decently reasonable suspicion it does.
On June 28 2012 08:11 heartbourne wrote:
We should complain to Blizzard for having him in WoW commercials! /sarcasm
It sucks not having gay bars or clubs. I just moved from Albany NY and am about to settle in Charlotte NC. From what I've seen online Albany has wayyy more of a scene with half a dozen gay dance clubs and gay bars, so I'm hoping Charlotte has some gay nightlife.
You can consider using an app like Grindr. It isn't all surfing for sex; I fired it up once or twice while I was out and was just amazed about how many gay people were on it and out at bars. Makes it easier to strike up conversation and whatnot.
Charlotte should have some. I don't know how it compares to Albany, but its a really good sized city. If you want to see a city that has no gay clubs/bars come to Lynchburg. Thanks to Jerry Falwell we can't even have a regular bar, over fifty percent of a businesses sales have to come from food. If alcohol sales are higher than food you risk gettin' shut down. So there are no clubs or bars even for regular social interaction (excludin' Applebee's, Buffalo Wild Wings, and other various restraunts that have a bar inside).
Also unrelated note: we are nearin' the 300 page mark!
Last edit: 2012-06-28 09:02:03
If you're homophobic, you're probably ugly, so don't worry about a gay guy coming onto you. - jarrydesque
Actionfigurejesus United States. June 28 2012 09:15. Posts 38
Boulder Colorado? If so you aren't that far from Denver and I'm pretty sure Denver will have a gay bar. My grandparents live in Golden which is like fifteen to thirty minutes max from Denver and about forty-five from Boulder. I live in Virginia though so I can't be completely positive but I would have a decently reasonable suspicion it does.
I am close to Denver, but its still about a 25 min drive, so its not ideal but that's just kinda how it is so we deal with it. That was why that group got started, because everybody got sick of driving to Denver all the time haha.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll look down and whisper "No." -Rorschach
Troxle United States. June 28 2012 09:21. Posts 481
Boulder Colorado? If so you aren't that far from Denver and I'm pretty sure Denver will have a gay bar. My grandparents live in Golden which is like fifteen to thirty minutes max from Denver and about forty-five from Boulder. I live in Virginia though so I can't be completely positive but I would have a decently reasonable suspicion it does.
I am close to Denver, but its still about a 25 min drive, so its not ideal but that's just kinda how it is so we deal with it. That was why that group got started, because everybody got sick of driving to Denver all the time haha.
Good enough haha. I'd have to drive 45 minutes just to go to a club or bar, not even sure if they have a gay bar there or not. But there isn't a very large gay community here that I know of.
If you're homophobic, you're probably ugly, so don't worry about a gay guy coming onto you. - jarrydesque
Axero United States. June 28 2012 09:28. Posts 246
Boulder Colorado? If so you aren't that far from Denver and I'm pretty sure Denver will have a gay bar. My grandparents live in Golden which is like fifteen to thirty minutes max from Denver and about forty-five from Boulder. I live in Virginia though so I can't be completely positive but I would have a decently reasonable suspicion it does.
I am close to Denver, but its still about a 25 min drive, so its not ideal but that's just kinda how it is so we deal with it. That was why that group got started, because everybody got sick of driving to Denver all the time haha.
Good enough haha. I'd have to drive 45 minutes just to go to a club or bar, not even sure if they have a gay bar there or not. But there isn't a very large gay community here that I know of.
We don't up here either. It's all bars full of 40-somethings pretending they're college age partying.... it's actually kinda sad to watch...
Proud passenger of the Rotti is a Hotti train. ϵ﴾ᵔᴥᵔ﴿϶
