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| horoLA Brazil. September 06 2010 10:08. Posts 50 | Profile # |
Well it's probably a tip for those that are tired of ladder bullshit and is looking to improve more. I was kinda bored here looking for partners to pratice and thought i would give AI a go.
Seriosuly, very hard AI is awesome if you play standard zerg, I think it's probably low/mid-diamond level if you don't abuse it's weakness. It scouts you, do a good army composition against yours and macro AWESOME
What i found out so far, the best race to pratice against is protoss as zerg it doesn't act anywhere near as a real zvz(no banelings) and terran don't abuse all the cheese that it can.
Did anybody pratice or had any good experience playing the AI? It's seens way above wc3 level.
Insane AI isn't really playable as you have to abuse it's weakness to win or maybe a close(maybe that's not even enoght) to perfect macro game and use some strategy you wouldn't use on an online game. |
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| zJayy962 September 06 2010 10:28. Posts 1313 | Profile Blog # |
I'll practice with you
JayyJer 597 |
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| Beef Noodles United States. September 06 2010 10:37. Posts 820 | Profile Blog # |
| The only problem is that the AI just crumbles to muta harass. It can't defend mutas at all |
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| Watsonator United States. September 06 2010 10:38. Posts 39 | Profile # |
Yeah I'm a Zerg player and practice a good bit against very hard AI. The insane isn't good to practice against because they cheat and the builds and timings will all be off.
Playing against Protoss is also my favorite and use it mostly to test build orders and for warming up. |
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| ChibiZerg Australia. September 06 2010 12:13. Posts 26 | Profile # | |
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| Zips United States. September 06 2010 13:31. Posts 146 | Profile # |
The problem with playing the AI is that almost nobody uses the same builds the AI uses. Generally, real games come down to timing pushes, good harass/micro, or solid macro play with good defense. The computer just works off of weird timing pushes and good macro play.
So, if you can beat very hard AI without using cheese, it means your macro is very good. On the other hand, since nobody really likes to play with the same BO the computer uses, you'll find that your comp stomp skills don't necessarily transfer over very well to ladder games.
It's nice to warm up on the comp, though, if nothing else  |
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| horoLA Brazil. September 06 2010 13:43. Posts 50 | Profile # |
On September 06 2010 13:31 Zips wrote:The problem with playing the AI is that almost nobody uses the same builds the AI uses. Generally, real games come down to timing pushes, good harass/micro, or solid macro play with good defense. The computer just works off of weird timing pushes and good macro play. So, if you can beat very hard AI without using cheese, it means your macro is very good. On the other hand, since nobody really likes to play with the same BO the computer uses, you'll find that your comp stomp skills don't necessarily transfer over very well to ladder games. It's nice to warm up on the comp, though, if nothing else
I have "mastered" what the computer usually do and if you think about it, it's not bad. I think he maphacks also but the computer build isn't really bad if you think about it.
I know how bad he is if you muta harrass him or some shit, but if you just macro battle its so fucking awesome!
I went 5rr a bunch of times, all of the where greatly countered by imortals with perfect timing, 1 gate 1 robo.
I tried to expand early, he 2 gated me.
I tried to go roaches, he got imortals+stakers+some zealots and setry and pushed me really good.
I tried to hydras and he went colossus+normal army. 2 gate robo i think.
I went fake roaches and hydras and just massed hydras when he was about to attack me(he had imortals+some good mix), i've finally won.
AI's first and second pushes are so awesome, after that it gets really easy  |
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 whomybuddy United States. September 06 2010 13:47. Posts 620 | Profile # |
| .............Practice against ladder is better in my opinion. It's not boring. People play creatively. They don't 4 gate rush you all the time. They actually learn to wall in , force shield, fast tech, fast voidray etc. When you hit diamond or so, players will micro better forcing you to learn to micro against them too. You'll learn from you mistake after you lose so many games. |
| | Roaches all the way way way. |
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| ChibiZerg Australia. September 07 2010 10:37. Posts 26 | Profile # |
Yeah I know the Greentea AI isn't perfect, which is why I said fun
It is sure as hell a lot more challenging to fight compared to the default blizzard AI. So if you are seriously disheartened with ladder play? I still recommend the Greentea AI :D |
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| bobartig September 08 2010 00:14. Posts 40 | Profile # |
| @horoLA: I've pretty much gotten the very hard ai down to where I can early FE into a macro win, but the problem is that I always do the same thing against the ai and in turn it uses the same strats more often. Although, one time, I left an Ovie too close to the toss AI, and he went fast void rays and killed it + me. Its like one guy over at blizzard managed to engineer spite into the ai. |
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| guldurkhand Netherlands. September 08 2010 00:22. Posts 66 | Profile # |
| Hmm I wish someone could make the ai go online, just for fun and to see how high he gets. |
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| LagT_T Argentina. September 08 2010 01:03. Posts 529 | Profile # |
On September 08 2010 00:22 guldurkhand wrote:
Hmm I wish someone could make the ai go online, just for fun and to see how high he gets.
That would be awesome! |
| | "The tactics... no. Amateurs discuss tactics, professional soldiers study logistics." - Tom Clancy, Red Storm Rising |
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| Gamble85 United States. September 30 2010 06:50. Posts 19 | Profile # |
I cannot come up with a strategy to consistently beat the Protoss AI as a Zerg player (besides 6 pool or something) - it's very frustrating. They always get me with the first rush if I don't make roaches ASAP, or the second rush. FE is basically impossible.
Even when I feel like I am doing nothing but macroing and making drones, the very hard AI still has more income than me (and 3x the army of course).
I'm not good - #9 Gold, but I never know what to do against toss on the ladder, and I feel like I can't beat good players if I can't learn how to beat the very hard AI.
Terran/zerg AI on very hard is not too bad, but protoss just seems impossible.
Last edit: 2010-09-30 06:51:34 |
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| SpaceYeti United States. September 30 2010 07:52. Posts 697 | Profile # |
GreenTea AI is super fun when just practicing a brand new build order or tired of laddering. It's a pretty solid AI really, but most of the difficulty levels do get a mineral bonus. Fortunately, the mineral bonus starts at 0 and gradually increases as game length increases, which means that early game timings are mostly preserved while late game it's compensating for less than ideal decision making by having larger numbers. 
Give it a go if you're looking for a change. |
| | Behavior is a function of its consequences. |
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| noD September 30 2010 11:19. Posts 2120 | Profile Blog # |
I like to use it as a source of ideas, for instance if I want a idea to what I should do against mass marines I will just mass marine against very hard/insane
unfortunately very hard pretty much loses to masses =X (mass rine/ mass marauder etc)
but overall it´s good to play @work =x |
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| JinDesu United States. September 30 2010 11:26. Posts 3387 | Profile Blog # |
On September 30 2010 06:50 Gamble85 wrote:
I cannot come up with a strategy to consistently beat the Protoss AI as a Zerg player (besides 6 pool or something) - it's very frustrating. They always get me with the first rush if I don't make roaches ASAP, or the second rush. FE is basically impossible.
Even when I feel like I am doing nothing but macroing and making drones, the very hard AI still has more income than me (and 3x the army of course).
I'm not good - #9 Gold, but I never know what to do against toss on the ladder, and I feel like I can't beat good players if I can't learn how to beat the very hard AI.
Terran/zerg AI on very hard is not too bad, but protoss just seems impossible.
Depends on the map, of course, but...
Do standard 15 hatch 14 pool. You need the 15 hatch to defend the second push. You need to practice this over and over until you get the exact timing to get the zerglings. But once you get the timing, all you need to do is get 2-3 spines down at the right time and to make a lot of zerglings, and to hide your queen behind the spines to snipe zealots hitting it. The zerglings should get sent to the back to take out the stalkers and sentries or the immortal. This should almost always get you past the first wave. The second wave comes pretty quick after, and has more units.
I find that practicing against the hard protoss AI makes a zerg player appreciate drone/army timing differences. |
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| jpaugh78 United States. September 30 2010 11:52. Posts 179 | Profile # |
| I can't seem to beat protoss or terran as zerg against the very hard AI. I can make it to around the 20 minute mark usually, but then a big push usually kills me. I realize that means I need to learn better macro, but it's frustrating, because I'll be doing really good up to that point. |
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| Slivered Skin Canada. September 30 2010 12:00. Posts 347 | Profile # |
What kind of "ladder bullshit" are you referring to, exactly? Yes, it can be frustrating to lose a few matches in a row every once in a while, but roflstomping a relatively predictable AI isn't really the best way to practice.
I would suggest sticking with the ladder. You'll be exposed to many different tactics, which will in turn force you to be able to quickly shift your game plan about and macro properly against harass and the such. Try messaging players after you play a really close and fun match against them. Ask them if they would like to play a few custom games so that the both of you can learn from the other. You'd be surprised as to how many people are actually up for this kind of stuff. |
| | Those most oft mated find love’s motive in a word: inebriated - Get well Violet!! And sC!! T_T |
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| JinDesu United States. September 30 2010 12:18. Posts 3387 | Profile Blog # |
On September 30 2010 11:52 jpaugh78 wrote:
I can't seem to beat protoss or terran as zerg against the very hard AI. I can make it to around the 20 minute mark usually, but then a big push usually kills me. I realize that means I need to learn better macro, but it's frustrating, because I'll be doing really good up to that point.
Watch the replays. The best reason why I like playing against the Hard AI sometimes is because you can watch the replays and they are very consistent. Having the opponent be consistent means your mistakes are a lot easier to spot by yourself.
For example, after watching through a few of those replays where the computer does the same kind of push to kill you, ask yourself -
How much more of an army did it have over me?
Why was it's army bigger? Or if it wasn't, what was the composition that killed me?
What was my production and tech prior to the push? Was it insufficient? Why was it insufficient?
Etc.
On September 30 2010 12:00 Slivered Skin wrote:
What kind of "ladder bullshit" are you referring to, exactly? Yes, it can be frustrating to lose a few matches in a row every once in a while, but roflstomping a relatively predictable AI isn't really the best way to practice.
I would suggest sticking with the ladder. You'll be exposed to many different tactics, which will in turn force you to be able to quickly shift your game plan about and macro properly against harass and the such. Try messaging players after you play a really close and fun match against them. Ask them if they would like to play a few custom games so that the both of you can learn from the other. You'd be surprised as to how many people are actually up for this kind of stuff.
I agree on practice partners. But if you aren't a good player and you aren't great at self analyzing and you don't have that many friends that can assist you in that matter, playing against the hard AI can help you learn HOW to analyze. Ladder opponents can vary in tactics, timing, etc by a ton. The AI, not so much. |
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| Shikyo Finland. September 30 2010 12:25. Posts 20147 | Profile Blog # |
| Well these won't really give you a proper challenge, you will basically make enough units to beat back their push and then mass drones as you counterattack with your leftover army and they always die to the counter. Not useful imo. |
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