Protoss Weakest 2v2 Race by miles.

Haven't really seen any balance discussions regarding teamplay but as the top levels Toss just seems absolutely worthless compared to other races.

Both terran and zerg have agressive options at the start (or cheese if you wanna call it that) that is viable. More importantly either race can hold vs cheese combinations (albiet with some econ damage) with some micro giving their ally time to counter or tech or whatever. Toss on the other hand has no viable early game pre-warpgate and even then it's a mediocore tech as far as game changing techs go given the lack of early defense they sacrifice.

Basically in 2's with a toss ally I see 4 scenarios.

1) They get early rushed. If their ally is terran in a reaper build they can help to some degree, although I still think lings (if they also get fast speed) have an edge on zeals since they can help in the reaper control war have the overall edge. If their ally is terran in a rine build toss gets 1 batch of weaker help, then zerg cuts terrans rally splits his lings and reaper\ling still works them. Any other terran build and toss is a goner.

With a zerg ally same idea, only difference is that toss will take a bigger early hit since slow lings get butchered by reapers.

2) Their ally gets early rushed. If they go a warpgate build (or any tech really), GL to their ally cause no help will be coming from that quarter and they only get 1 semi-viable counter attack with their first 2 rounds of warped in units before they're baically back to being out macroed. If they dont go a warpgate build they simply get out macroed early or have to hurt their own econ cronoing units instead of drones. that combined with how slow tosses early units are (lings and reapers can keep switching targets so fast compared to early toss) still a mega disavantage at best a dead ally in exchange for a weak counter at worst.

3) No one rushes at all and we progress to midgame. Toss gets away with robo or 4 gate\twilight build and can now macro units. At this point that game basically becomes even. Warpgates and proxy pylons give toss a huge mobility boost and collosi \ immortals \ templar (depending on ops composition) all are great crowd control units. They can still get out macroed\microed but I'd say from here they're no longer at a disadvantage, and they definiately don't have an advantage.

4) They proxy rush. If your ally is zerg any decent team will stop an all melee proxy no problem. P\P teams, same issue, melee only proxies are easilly negated except occasionally against zerg oppenents. Terran ally there's maybe some viability with reapers or rines except that they have to leave their main 10x more exposed than the comperable zerg rush.

Anywho I guess my point is that toss basically is vunerable throughout the entire early game, and gains no midgame benefit if they survive to midgame. I know basically any time I see a P\? team it's a free win at the 1000+ diamond level other than on the really long shared choke maps and even on those they're at a distinct map control disadvantage if their opponents take advantage of it.

Last edit: 2010-09-09 21:15:28

Justifer September 09 2010 21:21. Posts 106

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Protoss has plenty of early aggression strats. They can proxy gateway vs terran or 2 gate vs zerg. Both work fine. They can also stop zerglings if they just wall there ramp like most protoss do. I don't play 2v2 often but it seems to me like they should be able to survive any early game rushes if microed properly. When there ally gets attacked im not so sure what he could do, but if his ally is terran he should probably of walled and been fine and if his ally is zerg get a spine crawler up

Last edit: 2010-09-09 21:25:11

Forsaken United States. September 09 2010 21:22. Posts 43

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Did you not read my post?

EatThePath United States. September 09 2010 21:24. Posts 2440

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Can you clarify what you mean by rush? If you're talking about 8 rax reaper after 7pool, a normal cyber build order (10 gate) can defend that on maps where you can wall your ramp. The others have shared bases, so your teammate can readily assist. Early scouting makes a huge difference, which seems obligatory in such a cheese-prone environment as 2v2. And if you lose to cheesy openings 25% of your games, who cares? Your #2 is the most dangerous situation, since it's hard to get a zealot to your teammate in a timely fashion, and then your first stalker can't defend the both of you from reapers. Staying on your toes with scouting is paramount in any matchup, and prevents most of these double rushes from being deadly, in my experience.

Last edit: 2010-09-09 21:25:24

Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE

Cibron Sweden. September 09 2010 21:26. Posts 253

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1)I don't see the problem with P early tech except specifically vs marauders which are stil counterable by a good mix of sentries, zeals and a few stalkers. Slings get slaughtered by zeals.. +1weapon and they melt like butter! (I have huge problems getting backstabbed by slings though.)

2) I dont get any of the arguments here. NOt helping ally? Doing 16 gate (lol)? build pylon in allys base? outmacroed..why? Chrono first zeal then probes.

3) Ok..

4) Yeah, but cheeses will always be cheeses. They can be countered...

P is my off race but I have no huge problems playing them in 2v2Diamond (don't know rank lol)

ZOMGY (¬O_o)¬ || BeastyQQ FTW!! ||

Forsaken United States. September 09 2010 21:29. Posts 43

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Ok let me clarify the only rushes that I'm really talking about are rushes that are T\x where the T reapers (or to a lesser degree marines).

if you go a straight stalker, you have the choice to block your ramp to stop the lings or save your miners from the reaper. if they went rines they can usually pop your stalker at the choke.

if you go a zeal the reaper\rines rapes your zeal and lings or 'lots get in.

Also even if you scout on an 8 pylon you wouldn't generally 10 gate, and if you did 10 gate and they didn't rush again you're behind, it's pure reactive play.

Forsaken United States. September 09 2010 21:32. Posts 43

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@cibron I meant basically any build order that isn't pumping units constantly from gateways while warpgate is researching by 'tech'. Generally I see people get a zeal + stalker (and with scouting often a sentry) and then stop producing till they can convert to warpgates when they do tech builds.

And your point #4 is my point #1. Toss is the most vunerable races early with no midgame payoff you shouldn't just lose 25% of your games anytime people play agressively. Terran and zerg both have econ builds that can hold off cheese builds by themselves. Toss does not.

Also I'm not talking about 'zealots' I'm talking about when you have barely chronoed out your first zeal and 6 lings + reaper show up. In solo sure you can block your cut with 1 zeal.... try it in team with a reaper or rines backing the lings\lots.

Let me also clarify I have 2 1000+ diamond AT's, I usually alternate between picking terran or randoming, and these are just my observations from both playing toss and playing against toss.

Last edit: 2010-09-09 21:40:07

Sinep Norway. September 09 2010 21:34. Posts 472

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I have to agree, i switched from z to p and I always feel on the backfoot as p in 2on2 as p/t. a proxy cheese from the terran with marauders or reapers + zerglings is unstoppable unless your ally does a rediculously early barracks as well and pulls workers as well as you pulling workers to fend it. you're just so worthless in early game. so vulnerable to counter attacks in some maps as well if you leave to help your ally

Cereo United States. September 09 2010 21:38. Posts 14

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If you really have that little faith in P (I don't), resource dump to your partner as a P player with cannons to protect you

All who love life fear the reaper!

Amber[LighT] United States. September 09 2010 21:38. Posts 5078

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Z is definitely the weakest race in 2v2. If a Zerg doesn't expand + mass lings the team is playing from behind.

It's not supposed to be easy, that's why it feels so effing good.

Zhou United States. September 09 2010 21:38. Posts 750

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I can see how protoss might seem that way, but it is a 2v2, so you do have another team-mate that should be able to help. Often, I always go for a sentry/stalker, because if the ramp is blockable, I can prevent one or both of them from rushing me, and it usually allows me to poke them off, or build up my forces. If the ramp is huge (Blizzard likes big ramps) I ask my teammate to build at the shared choke, which they usually have if the ramp is huge.

A lot of early aggression can be countered as protoss, but its hard to counter two rushes. As I think what is being brought up here, say 6 pool and reaper rush, but I think if you're not so super duper pro or anything like that, you can have your team-mate attack one of them, while you do your best to keep them busy as well; or rush with what you have yourself.

Slayer91 Ireland. September 09 2010 21:43. Posts 8807

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From a Z/P team:

vs ZT proxy reaper 6 pool
They HAVE to go for the protoss because zerg can easily defend on a long rush distance map with spine crawler 12 pool and queen. P just needs to wall off his base and get a stalker and zealot until Z comes.
vs TP proxy gates proxy reaper
Have to go for P again and P should go 2 gate with Z getting fast speedlings.
TT loses to speedling/stalker if they early double tech lab.

Once you get to the midgame you have immortals which are the like best unit in the game in 2v2's. Combine them with ling/baneling or roach/baneling/speedling or roach/baneling and some gateway units and theres really no solid answer from a non P time.

We really haven't had any trouble with ZP fucking around loses most of our games we rarely lose to proxy rushes.

Z is definitely the weakest race in 2v2. If a Zerg doesn't expand + mass lings the team is playing from behind.

Here's the story:
If its ZX team vs ZX that zerg can't expand and go lings because of banelings they are too powerful

However with ZX vs TT/PP/TP the zerg CAN go mass lings and theres no answer for expo mass speedlings (get speed first vs any rush off a 12 pool) from TT PP TP early game

Last edit: 2010-09-09 21:47:34

Cognito ergo diablo.

Forsaken United States. September 09 2010 21:44. Posts 43

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I think a lot of people here are responding as if by rush I mean @35-45 supply

When I say rush I specifically mean sub 20 supply.

35-45 falls under safely transitioned to midgame as far as my post is concerned.

Reborn8u United States. September 09 2010 21:45. Posts 1551

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If you play for the mid to late game they are amazing when paired with Terran. My 2v2 partner plays Terran, I play toss. We just hold off early aggression with good teamwork, once we get on 2 bases each we slow push across the map with Mech/mothership and either voidray/stalker or immortal/stalker and either push all the way for the win. Or we take over the majority of the map and expo to gold and 3rd/4th bases. I'll usually do some Dt harass and get a good amount of map control at that point. Meanwhile my partner puts sensor towers all over the map. We've been crushing people like this. When toss gets on 2 or more bases and has a mothership and a ton of warpgates it is so easy to defend almost anything and re-enforce faster than your opponents. The mobility and power toss can project makes up for the lack of mech mobility.

Markwerf Netherlands. September 09 2010 21:45. Posts 2827

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P is probably worst off indeed in 2v2.
2v2 is a pretty stupid format though especially on maps where there isn't a shared ramp, tech strats are simply impossible there and zealots and stalkers both kind of suck in this early game scenario.

There are some things that help though:
P can proxy which is pretty good against a Z. Proxy gates + reapers or proxy gates + lings is quite hard to stop for a Z.
Another solution which I prefer sometimes is to completely wall off yourself and go with fast warpgates. You can get a early stalker inside your base to help against reapers and you put some pylons outside your base to get units there. korean 4 warpgate style + rines or lings works pretty well and by putting a pylon in your allies base you can help defend pretty well.

Fortunately most maps have a shared entrance so the mobility advantage of lings can be avoided by walling off. Maps without a shared ramp are crap anyway, but 2v2 in general isn't too great, starcraft is about great timings, smart unit choices etc. 2v2 is just massing and making sure you fight together at the right times, it will never be really popular because of this.

Forsaken United States. September 09 2010 21:49. Posts 43

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@Slayer91

At the 1000+ diamond level if you get 9 pool \ reapered as toss you will not survive without help. If your ally does choose to help you vs countering\teching\expoing your econ will still be wrecked in the process.

I'm not exactly sure how people think you can micro 1 zeal vs a reaper + lings. and even if you got a stalker out before 9 pooled lings (hint: you can't) you have the option to block your choke with it and let your probes get raped my a reaper or go save your probes and let the lings in to kill the stalker while your probes get raped anyway.

Forsaken United States. September 09 2010 21:51. Posts 43

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On September 09 2010 21:45 Reborn8u wrote:
If you play for the mid to late game they are amazing when paired with Terran. My 2v2 partner plays Terran, I play toss. We just hold off early aggression with good teamwork, once we get on 2 bases each we slow push across the map with Mech/mothership and either voidray/stalker or immortal/stalker and either push all the way for the win. Or we take over the majority of the map and expo to gold and 3rd/4th bases. I'll usually do some Dt harass and get a good amount of map control at that point. Meanwhile my partner puts sensor towers all over the map. We've been crushing people like this. When toss gets on 2 or more bases and has a mothership and a ton of warpgates it is so easy to defend almost anything and re-enforce faster than your opponents. The mobility and power toss can project makes up for the lack of mech mobility.

That's exactly what I said. If toss can get to the midgame, they're just fine but they're litteraly the bitch of any agro strat that involves a terran.

youmaygetmad United States. September 09 2010 21:54. Posts 26

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I'm not going to say that I totally agree but protoss is my main as well. I'd have to say for the most part I don't have any trouble fending early rushes so long as they aren't complete all ins. However it feels like whenever both people all in with the most cheese possible (say reaper speedlings) it is awfully hard to defend since you have to rely so heavily on your ally to help you defend it since you will be forced to commit mostly to zealots(for zerglings) or mostly stalkers(for reapers). Especially on that one map... looks like a desert and you and your partner's ramps are probably a 45 sec to a minute run from each other. Plus the whole thing about protoss cheese being totally all in and impossible to even have a hope of living with afterwards if it fails really sucks (proxy gateways or photon cannon proxy).

Bad meching terran make me grouchy

EatThePath United States. September 09 2010 21:54. Posts 2440

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I'm not sure how any race handles a 2v1 rush like you're describing. Do you play 2v2 without a friend? I usually play with a zerg friend. If we both do middle of the road builds, we get damaged by that sort of attack, but not killed, and I guess the best outcome for the rushers is that they get a little ahead, but I think on the whole it's a wash.

About the losing games to cheese thing... I don't consider 2v2 to be "real" sc. I play team matches for fun because over the course of any team game, many thing besides skill determine the final outcome. Battles are so sensitive to happy accidents of timing between 4 people, it's not worth it to be dead serious competitive, though it would be cool if pro 2v2 was balanced.

How does a t or z doing a standard eco build hold off the 6 lings + reaper, and manage to help their friend if they are attacked?

Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE

Slayer91 Ireland. September 09 2010 21:56. Posts 8807

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On September 09 2010 21:49 Forsaken wrote:
@Slayer91

At the 1000+ diamond level if you get 9 pool \ reapered as toss you will not survive without help. If your ally does choose to help you vs countering\teching\expoing your econ will still be wrecked in the process.

I'm not exactly sure how people think you can micro 1 zeal vs a reaper + lings. and even if you got a stalker out before 9 pooled lings (hint: you can't) you have the option to block your choke with it and let your probes get raped my a reaper or go save your probes and let the lings in to kill the stalker while your probes get raped anyway.

I play Z in my Z/P team.
I 12 pool, make 1 queen 1 spinecrawler and rally lings to protoss as soon as the 12 pool finishes, which is the fastest spawning pool you can get without hurting your economy/larvae badly.
Protoss needs to wall off his base with a pylon or maybe a gap for 1 zealot and then get a stalker out and then its stalker/ling/any more zealots vs ling/reaper.

I'm in no way suggesting you can fight a 2v1.
I'm nut sure if we're 1000 diamond yet but we're not that far off.

I mean "ally chooses to help" your ally HAS to help. Teching/countering/expoing is totally last resort since you're abandoning your biggest resource. Who cares how bad your econ is, if you survive with 6 probes you're ahead of a 6 pool/reaper build. Because you've got all the tech up, you probably need like 3-4 probes or something, and a 9 pool probably is too slow on most maps if i'm going 12 pool to support.

Last edit: 2010-09-09 21:58:31

Cognito ergo diablo.