The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 257

For ZvP, what does my 200/200 composition look like? I've got about 80 drones, 4 base (but main is probably mined out). Now what should I be aiming to get for a 200/200 confrontation army-wise and upgrade-wise?

Protoss usually looks like:
1 Mothership
5-6 Collosus
7-8 HTs
3-4 Immortals
The rest is Stalkers and Zealots
--around 3-2-3 upgrades or maybe 3-1-2

How does my comp change depending on Protoss changes?
- if Protoss has void rays...
- if Protoss has archons...
- if Protoss does not have HT yet...

In the best case scenario you'll need.
~ 10 infestors (best with neural parasite, neural parasite the MS and quickly use up the vortex)
~ 15 broodlords (more is almost always better, they are pretty slow so your position is KEY, especially spread out before any fights with Motherships)
~ A wall of spine crawlers to slow down any advance and give your troops time to position. They'll never work by themselves. Can't stress how important these are.
~ 10 corrupters (remember to use up the corruption spell! not just simply charge down motherships and Colossi)
~ all the zerglings and other troops you can afford to do small counter attack damage to their economy, NOT engage their deathball.
~ 3 Overseers with the main army (remember MS cloaks!)

With more void rays, you'll need more infestors.
Archons can be dealt with broodlords, just don't get them into the vortex, too save as many broodlords as possible, you can try flushing a lot of infested terrans into / around the vortex, but don't hope for much. Its the broodlord spread that will save you.

While of course the first engagement matters, you'll probably be lucky if you came out with half that amount of troops while destroying the bulk of the protoss deathball. The real issue is remaxing on the right composition after, which is zerg's strength - use up your bank of resource and larvae to build a strong counter attack before the Protoss gets his deathball again. Of course, you'll need all the upgrades you can get, best to stick to 3/3 melee carapace (which helps broodlings), adrenal glands, and better get air armor upgrades than attack.

A trick that zerg always fall for is a steady assault of zealots and DTs into their bases, so more detection is needed. Also watch a Zenio game where he uses overseers to delay Colossus production and the MS many times!

DeadlyNightShade Chile. May 15 2012 06:47. Posts 43

How many workers ( and how many gases) do you need to get constant production of roaches out of 2 bases??
Is 2hatchs2queens enough or should i add a macro hatch for this purpose?

BlueKatz May 15 2012 14:05. Posts 68

How should I respond to Protoss who block 3 Pylon at my ramp?

Quotes are useless

Maxamix Canada. May 15 2012 14:16. Posts 165

get a drone down there before, and prevent him from dropping the 3rd (ususally the 16th drone)
if he gets it down.... your only hope is 1 base nydus or drone drilling

Drone drilling is when you click on the mineral field at your natural
they will all clump up
then you attack a pylon and they will all attack at the same time
but the easier way is to not let it happen

Maxamix Canada. May 15 2012 14:18. Posts 165

On May 15 2012 06:47 DeadlyNightShade wrote:
How many workers ( and how many gases) do you need to get constant production of roaches out of 2 bases??
Is 2hatchs2queens enough or should i add a macro hatch for this purpose?

Depends what's your strat, if your going for the 200/200 Stephano style, a 3rd (NOT macro hatch) is suggested.
If your going for an all in 2hatch 2 queen with 2 gaz in enough for roachling allin

KimJongChill United States. May 15 2012 14:31. Posts 6424

On May 14 2012 11:54 HyperionDreamer wrote:

On May 14 2012 06:53 Ballistixz wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

On May 14 2012 06:47 HyperionDreamer wrote:

K so first of all, I strongly urge you to read through Belial's ZvP thread - all the gas timings and scout timings are contained within, really useful stuff to internalize and really get the "feel" of, because then you can adjust it based on the early game.

To actually "know" that he's doing this specific timing, you really need to see the robo facility making those immortals. Otherwise it could simply be a 4 gate robo with observers into making a third nexus, and you don't want to commit to a ton of units if he's just going to expand. The new speed of overlords should really help you in double scouting at the 7:30 mark and trying to see exactly his timings.

Basically you NEED hydras to defend this push, and I like to rely much more on lings than roaches in fending off toss allins, since you can engage him in the middle of the map to bait out forcefields - plus it take many more ff's to completely shut out lings than it does to shut out roaches. Since the forcefields are the real power behind his army, if you can force him to waste a few in the middle of the map then you're sitting pretty with a few hydras behind spines.

You'll need likely 65 drones max to hold this push off, any more and you probably won't have enough units. It's also imperative that you don't miss injects or get overlord blocked, since you are going to need EVERY single unit you can possibly get to hold it off. The maps you're the most likely to see it on are Cloud Kingdom, Ohana, Korhal, basically anything with a really nice choke for him to wall off your units with. I have a lot of trouble holding it off since it's such a strong attack, but I generally try to threaten a lot of ling backstabs and such to delay his attack so I can get more roaches/hydras.

For like 2 weeks I saw this push like every second ZvP, but lately it's lost a lot of popularity in favor of stargate plays, I think it's because if you hold the immortal attack then you basically just win the game by a-move across the map with roach/ling. I'd say it's a nice build to throw into a BoX series from the toss perspective, but on an actual fundamental level I don't really think it's toooooooo solid of a build.

you do not "need" hydras to hold that off... all you "need" to do is stop droning at 60 and start pumping units. if he tries to expand then just deny the expansion by pumping roach lings stephano style. infact stephanos build deals with these kinds of pushes quite nicely.

its not really as hard or unstoppable as ur making it out to be bro. its a strong push yes, but it can be held off with proper scouting and preperation.

also, you need to be careful with hydras. if a toss sees any amount of hydras he will simply back off and tech to colo and now u will have a useless unit in ur army. making hydras can be good, but also risky.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you in any way here. I've lost games on Cloud Kingdom to this push when I've been maxed on roach ling at 11:30 and he's been at 130 food, he kills the 200/200 and then two waves of units after that too. I could see you holding it with pure roach ling if you get a really sick surround for whatever reason, but I've had a top masters practice partner of mine do this build to me over and over for practice, and the only way that I've been able to hold it consistently is by scouting it and having 10+ hydras when he arrives.

I didn't mean to make it sound unstoppable, but it's the protoss build that scares me the most BY FAR. A lot of the attacks don't have much potency anymore (blink stalker +2, 4 gate pure zealot, voidray, etc) and are more suited to pressuring Zerg and then expanding, but this immortal attack has the potential to just kill you straight up ezpz if you don't respond to it absolutely perfectly.

Edit: I just played against the same toss 3x on ladder who did this build, and you can punish toss really hard for moving out too early by making some lings instead of pure roach. Often protosses will move out with like 5 sentries, 3 immortals from their main, and then try to warp in zealots from a proxy pylon to meet up with the army. If you see this, just attack move the sentries and immortals with lings and you autowin.

Yeah I'll agree with you as well. The variations I've seen basically involve toss turtling on two base until like 150 food and it will crush any 200/200 maxed roach army. I asked how to deal with this kind of thing in this thread beforehand and the advice was generally to engage toss as early as possible and in as favorable a position as possible. The zerg advantage in this situation is economy/production, so don't let toss camp your rally points and abuse the shit out of ff's, especially on maps like Ohana.

MMA: U realise MMA: Most of my army EgIdra: fuck off MMA: Killed my orbital MMA: LOL MMA: just saying MMA: u werent loss

HoBb3 Sweden. May 16 2012 03:42. Posts 37

Looking for a ZvT Replay, antiga from GSL!

I think i saw this game played out in the gsl, not 100% sure though. There was a zerg player (dont remember who) who did this 2 base ling/bane/muta allin against a 3cc build and won like 1 month ago. I think it hit around 10-14 minutes.
I don't have much more information, but i hope someone remember.

And i apologise if this is the wrong place to post this at.

vfin Finland. May 16 2012 04:22. Posts 6

Hey guys! High-Gold zerg here!

I need some help against this build right here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315275

I just cant seem to beat it in anyother way except with early roach all-in or pressure but if that doesnt kill him, im so far behind. Stephano roach doesnt work either as his 4-8 zealots come at 7:10. These zealots usually kill my 3rd and then its 2 base against 2 base. He just pushes out with blink stalker of 6-8 gates and kills me cus i never got my 3rd saturated and not enough army. I feel that 2 base roach hydra might be good but i still need some advice

Servius_Fulvius United States. May 16 2012 05:44. Posts 947

On May 16 2012 04:22 vfin wrote:
Hey guys! High-Gold zerg here!

I need some help against this build right here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315275

I just cant seem to beat it in anyother way except with early roach all-in or pressure but if that doesnt kill him, im so far behind. Stephano roach doesnt work either as his 4-8 zealots come at 7:10. These zealots usually kill my 3rd and then its 2 base against 2 base. He just pushes out with blink stalker of 6-8 gates and kills me cus i never got my 3rd saturated and not enough army. I feel that 2 base roach hydra might be good but i still need some advice

A lot of lower level protoss play strategies like this. Gold league has a lot of one-trick ponies. Once you beat they're trick they tend to fall pretty quick if you follow up with good macro. I'd venture to say it's not much different in higher leagues (I'm plat and play a high plat/diamond opponents), only the follow-ups get better.

If you haven't already check out Belial's ZvP guide (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038). He gives helpful tips on how to react to 4gate pressure (as well as useful benchmarks you should be hitting). Specifically, you need to build an early roach warren at 6:30 and pump out a few roaches once you confirm 4gate pressure (identified through suicide overlord scouts). Stopping this kind of pressure isn't impossible with zerglings, but it's very difficult to be cost-effective. The roach technique sounds easy enough, but you need to be spot-on with injects, overlords, and even when you start making units. I lost a game to 4gate pressure recently due to zealots attacking between my rally points. Zerg has always been a race where a small mistake can lose the game and there's a lot of room for error, so make sure you're practicing those mechanics!

The build you linked has zealots warping in at ~7:15. I haven't played against this build myself, but you will need the early roach warren and make a concerted effort to deny a proxy pylon that is next to your base. I usually shift-amove a few lings in common proxy positions throughout the map. If you are unfamiliar with these positions hit up dropsc, download a bunch of higher level protoss replays where the toss wins and keep track of proxy locations. You can also get this information from playing a bunch of games.

Last edit: 2012-05-16 05:46:01

Moosegills United States. May 16 2012 05:54. Posts 463

On May 15 2012 14:05 BlueKatz wrote:
How should I respond to Protoss who block 3 Pylon at my ramp?

f10+n is usually the best response

teamfxo.com | @FXOMoosegills on twitter | http://www.twitch.tv/moosegills

Mrvoodoochild1 United States. May 16 2012 06:18. Posts 1434

On May 15 2012 14:05 BlueKatz wrote:
How should I respond to Protoss who block 3 Pylon at my ramp?

In all honesty you should just leave the game whenever someone does that to you because the game is essentially over. There are times when you get a drone out and can proxy a hatch but this is usually scouted and cannoned out. Sometimes ColCatz rushes to muta but this is very gimmicky. Ramp blocks are an abusive strat that is banned from tournament play because it pretty much just wins you the game outright.

"let your freak flag fly"

dronefarm United States. May 16 2012 06:20. Posts 260

I'm having some problems when going for the no gas 3 hat opening versus protoss when I find out the protoss is going for a gate/core opening. A lot of the time my second hat is at my third because protoss will block my natural, and then I feel like I'm in a horrible spot when my drone scouts no forge at the front.

I've tried getting the third hatch anyway and hope to hell they still go 1 gate, I've tried just sticking on my main and "3rd", and I've tried canceling my hatch and waiting for the lings to kill the pylon and just expanding after it's gone.

A lot of the time the protoss will cancel his second assimilator (or they just start pooling chrono if they were going 1 gate) and just 4 gate me, and I don't really know how to stop it. my second hatch just dies if I go 3 base or go 2 base and keep it at the third. If I cancel I feel behind because of the lost minerals, then my spines aren't up in time to keep the toss from doing to much damge with the stalker harass, then the 4 gate is even more powerful (especially since my gas is so late).

Could someone give me a rep of how to deal with a protoss who pressures in this situation and how to come out ahead?

If you can chill, chill

Mrvoodoochild1 United States. May 16 2012 06:25. Posts 1434

On May 16 2012 06:20 dronefarm wrote:
I'm having some problems when going for the no gas 3 hat opening versus protoss when I find out the protoss is going for a gate/core opening. A lot of the time my second hat is at my third because protoss will block my natural, and then I feel like I'm in a horrible spot when my drone scouts no forge at the front.

I've tried getting the third hatch anyway and hope to hell they still go 1 gate, I've tried just sticking on my main and "3rd", and I've tried canceling my hatch and waiting for the lings to kill the pylon and just expanding after it's gone.

A lot of the time the protoss will cancel his second assimilator (or they just start pooling chrono if they were going 1 gate) and just 4 gate me, and I don't really know how to stop it. my second hatch just dies if I go 3 base or go 2 base and keep it at the third. If I cancel I feel behind because of the lost minerals, then my spines aren't up in time to keep the toss from doing to much damge with the stalker harass, then the 4 gate is even more powerful (especially since my gas is so late).

Could someone give me a rep of how to deal with a protoss who pressures in this situation and how to come out ahead?

You have to understand that the protoss is sacrificing his own econ when he doesn't FFE, so you can either just sack your third or try to defend with slow lings. If he kills your third, you won't come out that far behind becaue the protoss invested a lot in the early game to tech up to really early wargates. Just retake your third and play on.

Edit: I forgot to mention. Sometimes you just want to cancel your third if you scout that he doesn't FFE. It's sometimes better to just cut your losses then try to defend a wargate attack with slow lings

Last edit: 2012-05-16 06:30:07

"let your freak flag fly"

dronefarm United States. May 16 2012 06:28. Posts 260

On May 16 2012 06:25 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:

Well, he kills you after he kills your third, or just ignores it and kills you anyway because you invested 300 minerals that's useless... It's not like it's a super close battle at the third

If you can chill, chill

Mrvoodoochild1 United States. May 16 2012 06:38. Posts 1434

On May 16 2012 06:28 dronefarm wrote:

Well, he kills you after he kills your third, or just ignores it and kills you anyway because you invested 300 minerals that's useless... It's not like it's a super close battle at the third

You just arn't committing enough to defense . You need at least two spines and 15+ lings to defend a 4 gate. If you defend the 4 gate you flat out win because the protoss only has 19 probes and no tech. Just realize that early wargate pressure with no expo is an ALL IN for protoss. So you need to react occordingly which means you stop droning entierly and commit to lings and spines.

"let your freak flag fly"

dronefarm United States. May 16 2012 06:52. Posts 260

On May 16 2012 06:38 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:

Yes, you need a lot of lings and spines to defend a 4 gate (or an earlier gas). So you can either defend your main's ramp or your third. If you defend your ramp with spines/lings, he's going to rape your 3rd/nat. If you try to defend your 3rd, he's going to rape your main. So you need to be defending your natural to defend your main and your second hatch and it's way delayed so you're going to have less larvae then you should and your creep @ your natural is late so your goikng to have trouble getting your spines up in the first place.

If you can chill, chill

Mrvoodoochild1 United States. May 16 2012 06:57. Posts 1434

On May 16 2012 06:52 dronefarm wrote:

On May 16 2012 06:38 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:

On May 16 2012 06:28 dronefarm wrote:

On May 16 2012 06:25 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:

Well, he kills you after he kills your third, or just ignores it and kills you anyway because you invested 300 minerals that's useless... It's not like it's a super close battle at the third

I thought you would just intuit this but I guess I have to be clearer. If he is four gating you, he is all ining you which would mean that there is no reason to defend your third. Just sac it and commit to defending your natural. If you defend the four gate you win. Simple as that.

"let your freak flag fly"

OneObsession Germany. May 16 2012 07:01. Posts 42

On May 15 2012 14:05 BlueKatz wrote:
How should I respond to Protoss who block 3 Pylon at my ramp?

Yo i think fast roaches with quick 3 bases is a fair respond to this pylon block.

i did it once in ladder if you want to watch xD
http://drop.sc/181207
btw master zerg here

dronefarm United States. May 16 2012 07:10. Posts 260

On May 16 2012 06:57 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:

On May 16 2012 06:52 dronefarm wrote:

On May 16 2012 06:38 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:

On May 16 2012 06:28 dronefarm wrote:

On May 16 2012 06:25 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:

Well, he kills you after he kills your third, or just ignores it and kills you anyway because you invested 300 minerals that's useless... It's not like it's a super close battle at the third

And I thought you would intuit, but I guess I have to be clearer. Noone is going to sit there killing your third with a 4 gate if you're clearly not going to defend it. H'es going to go to your main, and if you're setting up a defense on the ramp, he's going to kill your natural, then kill your third, then you're on one hatch, then he expos and lols. If you try to fight him on your natural, you have a lot less money than you should and late spines, so he's probably just going to kill you outright...

I think the correct response has to involve cancelling your expo at your third then trying to get your natural up and defend, but like I said, they do a lot of dmage with the stalker harass since your shit's late and if they see you're committing to much, nothing's stopping them from 1 gating. starting chono on probes again and 1 gating.

If you can chill, chill

envisioN . United States. May 16 2012 10:49. Posts 541

On May 10 2012 10:51 envisioN . wrote: