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OneBaseKing Afghanistan. June 15 2012 12:35. Posts 408
On June 15 2012 12:35 OneBaseKing wrote: What's the timing of Lair and Hive vs Terran?
There's no one set timing for lair/hive vs Terran, it depends on the build you're doing and the events of the game. I would say a good rule of thumb would be to aim for lair after +1+1 is started when you're getting closed to full 2 base saturation and hive when you're getting close to three fully saturated bases with a macro hatch. A lot of players get an infestation pit around 10:30 and lair around 11:30 for the infestor/ling/ultralisk style:
It really depends what style you are playing - 8-15 muta quick hive with double ups, 15+ mutas with single ups and late hive, infestor quick hive, roach/infestor quick hive, roach/infestor aggression late hive (roach/infestor more so against mech). If you are playing a quick hive style by making very few mutas/infestors/roaches, 3 base generally. If you are playing a longer mid-game with lots of mutas or roaches or infestors, after you max out generally.
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I've been running into some trouble with zvz's. I'm not really losing them, actually my openings have gotten significantly better, but every game just ends up the same way. Both sides just sit back and macro up too afraid to attack into a wall of spines or lose defenders advantage and then slowly in engagements one side gains the advantage (usually me so far) but in the last 4 of 5 zvz's they have all ended in base trades. I don't have anything against this, I mean in one or two of the games they saved me, but what should I do to put a more effective end to the game/improve my play and or build?
I've been running into some trouble with zvz's. I'm not really losing them, actually my openings have gotten significantly better, but every game just ends up the same way. Both sides just sit back and macro up too afraid to attack into a wall of spines or lose defenders advantage and then slowly in engagements one side gains the advantage (usually me so far) but in the last 4 of 5 zvz's they have all ended in base trades. I don't have anything against this, I mean in one or two of the games they saved me, but what should I do to put a more effective end to the game/improve my play and or build?
Please ignore my silence in most of them, I typically don't like talking in games -_-
As AtNDarkforce said in this thread, "you just have to accept with zerg that attacking anytime before 70 drones is somewhat all-in".
According to sc2gears, over 65% of my wins happen after 15 minutes. The other wins are just holding all-ins. I sometimes reactively baneling bust 1 rax FE into 4 rax or FE into 4 rax or fast third if I actually can scout that before 35 supply (when I start making extra queens and stuff that would hurt the all-in's strength and timing), but overwhelmingly, all of my wins are when I'm on 4+ bases. Even in ZvZ, I never have a see I win where it's before hive tech and 4+ bases on both sides (i dont know why people say its aggressive and short, my ZvZs are ALWAYS ridiculously long and I'd say about half of my wins see broodlords and a quarter of my losses).
But if your games are always 20+ minutes, and your average game length, like mine, is 17:58, then you are doing something right, not wrong. If you don't like it, switch races.
Other than that, you need to be way more descriptive of your games, and just pick the best game you want us to analyze, a game you lost in, and describe what happened in the game. dont just say "hey guys heres 4 randoms zvz i played please watch and tell me how to shorten it" because they are supposed to be long.
And giving replays that you win for people to analyze isn't really good. It doesnt tell us anything, your mistakes dont come out, in games you win in. Whatever you did that game was correct, keep doing it until it doesnt work.
On maps where I cant take a fast third, or the opponents doesn't open FFE, I should 2 base play, right?
So, are there any builds for 2 base play vs protoss?
My Comprehensive ZvP Guide gives both 2 base and 3 base plays, but I recommend when playing against a Toss who doesn't FFE, unless he is 1 base all-inning, you should take your third. There is a reason gateway expands fell out of favor, its because zerg can just play assuming its a FFE and still be safe (although he needs to get speed quickly, thats the only difference).
You should just veto TDA. Every other zerg does. But if you do it play it, just go 2 base infestor or 2 base muta (mutas are so strong on that map that going 2 base muta against toss is almost okay even if they build order counter it). But you shouldn't play some broken stupid map that you can't even play standard on. That would be like if a map had rocks at the natural...
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How useful, generally, is the overlord speed upgrade? Should I be getting that as a matter or course or only if I have a specific need--e.g. I'm planning on doing drops? Any thoughts would be appreciated
Aside from playing 2 base on broken maps, I want to learn something different from the 3 base zerg. Sometimes I want to be really agressive, do 2 base all-ins/pushes without having to do the good old 10 pool vs FFEing toss.
I will take a look at your guide. BTW you should put links to your guides on your profile.
Masters on SC2 // Diamond on DotA 2
Belial88 United States. June 15 2012 17:27. Posts 5217
How useful, generally, is the overlord speed upgrade? Should I be getting that as a matter or course or only if I have a specific need--e.g. I'm planning on doing drops? Any thoughts would be appreciated
I used to get it every game. It's an extremely useful upgrade, I think day9 said it's as useful as ling speed. Now, i don't rush it, but I will get it immediately under these circumstances:
1. Terran is drop heavy. 2. I need to have a ton of creep spread immediately (you can cover the whole front of your bases on maps like entombed, shakuras, with overlords, and then just permanently make them with 1-2 well placed tumors) to mass spines, generally happens when I go infestor turtle into broodlord mode in ZvP, but sometimes I do it in ZvZ and ZvT as well. 3. ZvZ Zerg is not going mutas (i tend not to send my overlords out on the map early game because of mutas) so I can see the entire map, and I've taken my third and either the opponent isn't being hyper aggressive with roach/hydra against my roach/hydra and thus i really need that gas, or my opponent isn't going infestors in which case I'm just going to kill him and end the game for teching so greedily when I go roach/hydra. I will also get them if the opponent is going hydras, or infestors, and an imminent attack isn't occuring and I'm on 3 bases.
I think if you are really good, you don't need overlord speed - you rally every single overlord you make from the start to useful, anti-drop locations right away (i do this, but on maps like cloud kingdom, you can't do this against terran and certain good anti-drop locations require going over lots of land or the middle of the map), and you spread your creep way out already. but in ZvP I tend to really not spread creep (i just find it so macro intensive that I can't spare 150 minerals or a tumor, I'd prefer just to insta-creep with overlords later on if I go infestors), and in ZvZ well again, I feel I'm that starved for resources although i'll spread creep if I'm doing a 2 base lair opener.
It's such a great upgrade though. If you watch nestea play, you'll see he never gets it, because he's godly at making sure every single overlord he makes, is sent along a safe, long route, that 8 minutes later will be in the perfect spot. He has the entire map covered in overlords, without using overlord speed, because every single overlord he makes he rallies to a good spot along a safe route and 10 minutes later it's in a spot that's great that means you dont need overlord speed anymore (sending an overlord along the edge of the map, 5 minutes later it will be across the map, which is great because you only need to spot for drops 5-10 minutes later anyways so it doesnt need to be there immediately). I think a lot of zergs also don't do my insta-creep method because they just naturally spread creep well in ZvP and ZvZ, but I prefer not to spread creep in certain match-ups.
In ZvT I spread creep like a boss, but that's because you make lots of queens early on. I really don't like making extra queens early on in ZvP or ZvZ though, and creep spread is only necessary for mass spines in those match-ups.
Aside from playing 2 base on broken maps, I want to learn something different from the 3 base zerg. Sometimes I want to be really agressive, do 2 base all-ins/pushes without having to do the good old 10 pool vs FFEing toss.
Well every zerg all-in that's used at high level play is in there (if not, let me know, but I'm sure it's pretty comprehensive), so you have plenty of options in terms of coinflips. As for 2 base play... against Toss, I think it's slayerscoca or yugioh who actually go 2 base macro hatch lair infestor as a straight up macro build in ZvP (although granted, it's still just the same as the semi all-in 2 base infestor timing, and he still does that). However he's been knocked out the GSL, and I've never seen it work out, and he's always really far behind in lategame, so I don't think it's that great... but he's obviously made it work on ladder or practice so i'm sure it'll get you to at least code a with it as a macro build.
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http://drop.sc/197306 Plat vs diamond here What do you think I lost here to mech? I think I should have wait, also i should have been preperd for that push and start roach production earlier. thanks a head |
I've been running into some trouble with zvz's. I'm not really losing them, actually my openings have gotten significantly better, but every game just ends up the same way. Both sides just sit back and macro up too afraid to attack into a wall of spines or lose defenders advantage and then slowly in engagements one side gains the advantage (usually me so far) but in the last 4 of 5 zvz's they have all ended in base trades. I don't have anything against this, I mean in one or two of the games they saved me, but what should I do to put a more effective end to the game/improve my play and or build?
Please ignore my silence in most of them, I typically don't like talking in games -_-
As AtNDarkforce said in this thread, "you just have to accept with zerg that attacking anytime before 70 drones is somewhat all-in".
According to sc2gears, over 65% of my wins happen after 15 minutes. The other wins are just holding all-ins. I sometimes reactively baneling bust 1 rax FE into 4 rax or FE into 4 rax or fast third if I actually can scout that before 35 supply (when I start making extra queens and stuff that would hurt the all-in's strength and timing), but overwhelmingly, all of my wins are when I'm on 4+ bases. Even in ZvZ, I never have a see I win where it's before hive tech and 4+ bases on both sides (i dont know why people say its aggressive and short, my ZvZs are ALWAYS ridiculously long and I'd say about half of my wins see broodlords and a quarter of my losses).
But if your games are always 20+ minutes, and your average game length, like mine, is 17:58, then you are doing something right, not wrong. If you don't like it, switch races.
Other than that, you need to be way more descriptive of your games, and just pick the best game you want us to analyze, a game you lost in, and describe what happened in the game. dont just say "hey guys heres 4 randoms zvz i played please watch and tell me how to shorten it" because they are supposed to be long.
And giving replays that you win for people to analyze isn't really good. It doesnt tell us anything, your mistakes dont come out, in games you win in. Whatever you did that game was correct, keep doing it until it doesnt work.
On maps where I cant take a fast third, or the opponents doesn't open FFE, I should 2 base play, right?
So, are there any builds for 2 base play vs protoss?
My Comprehensive ZvP Guide gives both 2 base and 3 base plays, but I recommend when playing against a Toss who doesn't FFE, unless he is 1 base all-inning, you should take your third. There is a reason gateway expands fell out of favor, its because zerg can just play assuming its a FFE and still be safe (although he needs to get speed quickly, thats the only difference).
You should just veto TDA. Every other zerg does. But if you do it play it, just go 2 base infestor or 2 base muta (mutas are so strong on that map that going 2 base muta against toss is almost okay even if they build order counter it). But you shouldn't play some broken stupid map that you can't even play standard on. That would be like if a map had rocks at the natural...
Sorry about that, most of my base trades have been wins except for one of those replay's where I made a stupid misclick. I just wanted to understand whether there was a more effective way to end the game xD. Thanks for your advice!
Flonomenalz Nigeria. June 16 2012 00:17. Posts 2904
On June 16 2012 00:24 FakeDeath wrote: Anyone know the build oreder of the 6 queen build? I am talking about timings of the gas and when do you take your macro hatch/3rd.
Idra did this recently, it's an impressive build (can't wait for the 10 Queens before gas build). 15h/16p, build 6 queens (3 consecutively per hatch), take 4 gas at around 55 food while expanding to your 3rd at the same time. Gas goes - as always - into ling speed, bling nest (just in case of quick T agression), +1/+1, lair. Build a macro at around 60/65ish. This is just from what I remembered from watching his stream yesterday, pls correct me if I'm wrong. It gives you an absurd amount of creepspread - however I believe you hafta have decent APM for making use of that - I'm mid Diamond an I can barely make use of the 4 queen build.
edit: no sure about the expand timing. But since 6 queens are so heavy on the minerals, I think you can't really expand earlier than 50/55 ish food.
Does anyone know of any sick games to learn from if I want to go mutas in ZVZ, ZVT, or ZVP? I tried doing a base snipe in DRG fashion (lings+mutas working together to take down a nexus then running out) and it really got my heart racing, and I want to refine the style better
Belial88 United States. June 16 2012 07:31. Posts 5217
On June 15 2012 20:17 Tritone wrote: Thanks so much for the reply.
If a Protoss opponent techs to collossi, what is the ideal ratio of corruptors to collossi?
I believe you want 4-5 corruptors per colossus.
You shouldn't be making corruptors to counter colossi, zerg isn't really played that way anymore. If you are turtling behind mass spine/infestor in stephano style (not mass roach, but his infestor style, newer style), you should have 10-15 corruptors to snipe colossi that try to siege you (if he a-moves, stlakers get owned by spines+fg, if he sieges you with just colossi, you snipe colossi with corruptors + fg).
You need to have broodlords out by the time a toss with 3+ colossi hits you. So when toss is getting colossi, you should definitely be on your way to hive tech. If you are doing roach aggression, like 11 minute max roach all-in, you need to end the game before 2+ colossi really come out off 3 base.
Anyone know the build oreder of the 6 queen build? I am talking about timings of the gas and when do you take your macro hatch/3rd.
6 queens no gas, at 50 4xgas and a third and double evo. watch nesteas most recent gsl games.
Does anyone know of any sick games to learn from if I want to go mutas in ZVZ, ZVT, or ZVP? I tried doing a base snipe in DRG fashion (lings+mutas working together to take down a nexus then running out) and it really got my heart racing, and I want to refine the style better
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In that VOD (at 10:48 and 11:10), Stephano creates "proxy hatches" against MKP. In the end, Stephano wins before the hatches finishes. What is the purpose of Stephano when he created that hatches? I can think 2 purposes:
(1) Fast Reinforcements (2) Creep Spread
But (1) is funny because Stephano won before finished the hatches, and it was very very exposed to MKP, that in reaction can destroy it easily... And (2), it was easier cancel-hatch trick and place tumor, or Lair -> Overlord Creep.
In that VOD (at 10:48 and 11:10), Stephano creates "proxy hatches" against MKP. In the end, Stephano wins before the hatches finishes. What is the purpose of Stephano when he created that hatches? I can think 2 purposes:
(1) Fast Reinforcements (2) Creep Spread
But (1) is funny because Stephano won before finished the hatches, and it was very very exposed to MKP, that in reaction can destroy it easily... And (2), it was easier cancel-hatch trick and place tumor, or Lair -> Overlord Creep.
Can you explain it for me?
Frankly, I'd say that those are just "manner" hatcheries... Stephano knows that he's got an insurmountable lead, so he's basically telling MKP to "gg already". Sometimes you'll see Terran players throw "manner mules", Protoss players sometimes write something with pylons, etc. - none of that has actual strategic value, it's just done to mock an opponent when the game is basically already over.
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Belial88 United States. June 15 2012 13:08. Posts 5217
